How the new gen affects the IFGC

UberPrinny_Baal

Enough details are emerging now that it seemed like it was worth a topic.

All that I can say for certain about the new gen is that it seems like it's going to be expensive for replacing stuff.

• No old controllers will work on the Xbox Juan, this seems almost guaranteed to affect fightsticks
  
  
• PS4 won't support dual shock 3, but that's a wireless controller, so I dunno how that will affect USB fightsticks
  
  
• One for the streamers/uploaders

  @TheXboxOne: #XboxOne does not have a standard definition video output for either composite video or component video.

• Juan DRM/Anti-2nd hand technology to potentially make disc swapping at tournaments a pain (unconfirmed rumour)
  

FutureGuy

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Enough details are emerging now that it seemed like it was worth a topic.

All that I can say for certain about the new gen is that it seems like it's going to be expensive for replacing stuff.

• No old controllers will work on the Xbox Juan, this seems almost guaranteed to affect fightsticks
  
  
• PS4 won't support dual shock 3, but that's a wireless controller, so I dunno how that will affect USB fightsticks
  
  
• One for the streamers/uploaders

I think the wired sticks might be compatible with USB 3.0.

Doctor DooM

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

[*] One for the streamers/uploaders
[/LIST]

Good thing I just upgraded to be able to record encrypted HDMI signals!

For other people wondering, at present it looks like you will need to either get a device like a Hauppauge HD PVR2 or Avermedia LGP with HDMI, and possibly get a HDCP stripper like myself (best solution, imo) or you will need to buy a HDMI to component converter (Iv'e a couple of them too).

Either way if you want to do it right, you need to get a HDMI splitter too to ensure no frames are lost in the conversion.

Next gen recording looks a little awkward so far but entirely possible.


The stick situation is another matter...

Nevflinn

Good thing there likely won't be a top-level fighting game around for a long while, so we don't need everything by launch.

Doctor DooM

Wouldn't be too sure about that, PS2 launched with EX3, Sony wheeled out Ono and the Vita's making a big thing about SFxT et al. You never know.

K.O.Kiki

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think the wired sticks might be compatible with USB 3.0.

All sticks don't need anything faster than USB 2.0

The problem we saw with the Xbox 360 was that it had an additional encryption chip (which wasn't decrypted until 4 years after launch). This increases cost for legit peripheral manufacturers (e.g. MadCatz) as they have to pay Microsoft for a license for these chips & have to incorporate them into their PCB design.

PS3 was nice in that it accepted even the simplest USB HID device (even cheap USB Saturn pads & converters), though whether that will be the case with PS4 is still unknown.

Scavenger XIII

I'm desperately hoping no remotely decent fighters are released on next-gen for quite some time because I have no desire to own any of that junk.

Doctor DooM

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

All sticks don't need anything faster than USB 2.0

The problem we saw with the Xbox 360 was that it had an additional encryption chip (which wasn't decrypted until 4 years after launch). This increases cost for legit peripheral manufacturers (e.g. MadCatz) as they have to pay Microsoft for a license for these chips & have to incorporate them into their PCB design.

PS3 was nice in that it accepted even the simplest USB HID device (even cheap USB Saturn pads & converters), though whether that will be the case with PS4 is still unknown.

Perhaps the workaround people used to have with connecting a 360 pad with a stick will work on the One. You never know.

As mentioned elsewhere, not currently massively enthused by either of the consoles yet though.

deathrider

I'd be more concerned about this used games deal that the Xbox One apparently has going on. This could make disc swapping during tournaments an unnecessarily awkward situation.

1man3letters

deathrider wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about this used games deal that the Xbox One apparently has going on. This could make disc swapping during tournaments an unnecessarily awkward situation.

or even how that the console must connect to internet at least once in every 24 hours for console to function thing works,
what if its more than once and it decides it needs to connect to internet and were at a venue with no internet during a game


also like been mentioned, hope stick players wont get ****ed over and there stuff will still work on both consoles

K.O.Kiki

deathrider wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about this used games deal that the Xbox One apparently has going on. This could make disc swapping during tournaments an unnecessarily awkward situation.

1man3letters wrote: »

or even how that the console must connect to internet at least once in every 24 hours for console to function thing works,
what if its more than once and it decides it needs to connect to internet and were at a venue with no internet during a game

Then I advocate to NOT RUN tournaments on Xbox One.
It's pretty clear Microsoft don't want us to leave our home TV.

1man3letters wrote: »

also like been mentioned, hope stick players wont get ****ed over and there stuff will still work on both consoles

It didn't happen for the first 4 years of this generation, and I predict Microsoft will screw everyone over once again.

Doctor DooM

We're discussing without facts tbh.

Spade a spade, MS have messed up badly. There's rumours and half truths everywhere. They shouldn't have said anything about the DRM until they were ready to say it all.

As it stands, PS4 looks like it has to be the tournament standard, but I wouldn't be suprised if Ms say it's all been a misunderstanding and ease up on the DRM. Sure they can just pass the buck for that onto the game companies themselves.

ayjayirl

Doctor DooM wrote: »

...... Sure they can just pass the buck for that onto the game companies themselves.

My guess is that is exactly what they will do, and the DRM stuff is provided as a tool within the API for Xbox Juan so that they can charge % for the facility for the publisher.

All speculation at this point.

TV, TV xbox TV

UberPrinny_Baal

deathrider wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about this used games deal that the Xbox One apparently has going on. This could make disc swapping during tournaments an unnecessarily awkward situation.

Fair point. I'll add to the main post.

I'd be really annoyed as well if all my XBLA games weren't available on the Juan.

Rob2D

Every xbox one game will have to be installed and is then licensed to that profile and to that profile ONLY. If you put the disc into another machine you have to pay a fee and also install it again. Plus the machine will have to connect to live once a day like letters said AND the new kinect will have to be plugged in for the machine to even function.

Now Sony haven't said anything about always online but they will have a similar used games system in place; you can bet the farm on that.

They're all trying to emulate the Steam model IMO. What I predict for fighting games is that you'll be given an option to buy multiple digital copies of the game to send to friends. This is what you can do for SFIV currently on Steam right? Then just install those copies all on separate machines. Or I suppose you could just have one or two discs and pay the fee each time.

At the end of the day its just going to be a lot harder for you guys to run a tournament. Ye're all going to have to switch over to having Madden tournaments or something. Microsoft won't be able to do enough for ye then! :pac:

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Fair point. I'll add to the main post.

I'd be really annoyed as well if all my XBLA games weren't available on the Juan.

Oh yes that's another thing. NO backwards compatibility and NO current XBLA games will carry over either.

UberPrinny_Baal

Rob2D wrote: »

Oh yes that's another thing. NO backwards compatibility and NO current XBLA games will carry over either.

I only just got bloody Skullgirls ;_;

Doctor DooM

Rob2D wrote: »

Every xbox one game will have to be installed and is then licensed to that profile and to that profile ONLY. If you put the disc into another machine you have to pay a fee and also install it again. Plus the machine will have to connect to live once a day like letters said AND the new kinect will have to be plugged in for the machine to even function.

Now Sony haven't said anything about always online but they will have a similar used games system in place; you can bet the farm on that.

They're all trying to emulate the Steam model IMO. What I predict for fighting games is that you'll be given an option to buy multiple digital copies of the game to send to friends. This is what you can do for SFIV currently on Steam right? Then just install those copies all on separate machines. Or I suppose you could just have one or two discs and pay the fee each time.

At the end of the day its just going to be a lot harder for you guys to run a tournament. Ye're all going to have to switch over to having Madden tournaments or something. Microsoft won't be able to do enough for ye then! :pac:



Oh yes that's another thing. NO backwards compatibility and NO current XBLA games will carry over either.

I'd say it's too early to say any of this is set in stone. There's already been contradicting information sent out from Xbox's twitter account. I'd say there's bedlam in their office right now, but rightly so!

Rob2D

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'd say it's too early to say any of this is set in stone.

Its all been pretty much confirmed. I could link all the quotes/articles but I don't have that long left in my lunch break!

Sony haven't confirmed it but they keep dodging the question which is as good as a yes. I mean, if M$ do it then they can't not do it right?

UberPrinny_Baal

Rob2D wrote: »

Sony haven't confirmed it but they keep dodging the question which is as good as a yes. I mean, if M$ do it then they can't not do it right?

It would seem likely to me that the move against pre-owned is coming from the publishers/developers, pretty much solely to counter Gamestop.

It also doesn't seem likely MS would do this off their own back and generate a crap ton of poor community sentiment, unless they and Sony had been obliged to both do it.

That's just my take though, assuming all our worst DRM nightmares are true.

Doctor DooM

Rob2D wrote: »

Its all been pretty much confirmed. I could link all the quotes/articles but I don't have that long left in my lunch break!

Sony haven't confirmed it but they keep dodging the question which is as good as a yes. I mean, if M$ do it then they can't not do it right?

Yes, but then a load of conflicting information got released.

I'm just saying there's no point in losing our heads until it's properly confirmed.

Azza

From what I've read on the Xbox One.

Games will be tired to a users live account via the use of a CD Key like its currently done on PC. So you can use a disc in another Xbox One so log as your logged into a live account that the game is connected too. If your using a different account a fee must be payed to use it, which Microsoft have indicated will be the full cost of the game if its a new release title.

Whats yet to be clarified is the method on which you can sell your games second hand. Microsoft have said this will be facilitated but have not yet given specifics.

If there is a major fighting game release in the next year or so, I'd imagine it will still appear on the Xbox 360 and PS3 as the market for those will be far to big to ignore. It just won't look as pretty as the PS4 and Xbox One versions.

Kanped

Peripherals and streaming setups all work on PC. I'm hoping the gaming community backlash against the next gen consoles will force more devs to work on the PC platform but it's all too early to tell.

K.O.Kiki

Rob2D wrote: »

Every xbox one game will have to be installed and is then licensed to that profile and to that profile ONLY. If you put the disc into another machine you have to pay a fee and also install it again. Plus the machine will have to connect to live once a day like letters said AND the new kinect will have to be plugged in for the machine to even function.

Now Sony haven't said anything about always online but they will have a similar used games system in place; you can bet the farm on that.

i very much doubt Sony will adopt a similar strategy to Microsoft; they've been on a pretty pro-developer strategy recently - courting indies who have straight-up said that DRM is useless.

They're all trying to emulate the Steam model IMO. What I predict for fighting games is that you'll be given an option to buy multiple digital copies of the game to send to friends. This is what you can do for SFIV currently on Steam right? Then just install those copies all on separate machines. Or I suppose you could just have one or two discs and pay the fee each time.
[...]

The Steam model is more akin to just buying a few copies of the same game for a slightly discounted price; there's nothing in their clause that lets you play the same license on multiple machines concurrently (but you CAN play it on multiple machines if they're permanently offline).

Goody2shoes15

I'll say one thing that's fairly solidly set in stone after the press conference. The thing looks MASSIVE. Having to physically cart that to tournaments will be a pain, especially if, as is also rumour but a fairly solid one, it must have the kinect attached to work. If that turns out to be the case then I cannot see the tournament scene supporting it. Previous posters are right, they absolutely do NOT want you taking the thing with you anywhere. Once its set up in your living room it should never need to be moved. That's going to lose them more than just the FGC, any gaming genre that has regular tournaments or LAN parties will be pretty disenchanted with them.

K.O.Kiki

Eurogamer's Digital Foundry did a speculative analysis for the possible specs of the Xbox One vs PS4 - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one - and it's looking like everyone won't be complaining about lag on Sony machines anymore...

Kanped

The PS3 was actually a spectacular machine from a hardware perspective, it was just incredibly difficult to program for (at least that's my understanding; in my University there were PhD Computer Science students working with it doing research on parallel processing). Sony's hardware is usually very good and at least in terms of the marketing, they seem to be making real effort to make it more generic and easier to use.

However, cost-to-performance, I would still say that both are outmatched by entry level PCs, so it's down to the software and whether you're willing to pay an extra £100 or so not to have to learn to use a screwdriver.

K.O.Kiki

Kanped wrote: »

The PS3 was actually a spectacular machine from a hardware perspective, it was just incredibly difficult to program for (at least that's my understanding; in my University there were PhD Computer Science students working with it doing research on parallel processing). Sony's hardware is usually very good and at least in terms of the marketing, they seem to be making real effort to make it more generic and easier to use.

However, cost-to-performance, I would still say that both are outmatched by entry level PCs, so it's down to the software and whether you're willing to pay an extra £100 or so not to have to learn to use a screwdriver.

A comparable games PC with peripherals & operating system usually has a bigger premium than €100...

Kanped

You're right, actually. I went and spec'd it out and for a worthwhile gaming PC (which should be much more powerful than the consoles BTW), I'd recommend a budget of at least £450, which is a wee bit more than what the consoles will cost (Xbox One £399 according to Zavvi). Personally, I think it's worth it for the other benefits, and most people will have a PC of some sort, anyway, so may as well get a good one and kill 2 birds with one stone but yeah, it's not as one-sided as I thought.

Azza

Kanped wrote:

However, cost-to-performance, I would still say that both are outmatched by entry level PCs, so it's down to the software and whether you're willing to pay an extra £100 or so not to have to learn to use a screwdriver.

I doubt entry level PC's will match the cost to performance ratio of the new consoles, particular the PS4. Looking at the specs of the PS4, and given the efficiency advantages consoles tend to have over PC, I wouldn't be surprised if can at least for there first year or two after release compete with mid end and lower tiered high end PC's.

K.O.Kiki wrote:

A comparable games PC with peripherals & operating system usually has a bigger premium than €100...

He mean't the cost difference of buying a PC new and custom building it.

deathrider

Kanped wrote: »

You're right, actually. I went and spec'd it out and for a worthwhile gaming PC (which should be much more powerful than the consoles BTW), I'd recommend a budget of at least £450, which is a wee bit more than what the consoles will cost (Xbox One £399 according to Zavvi). Personally, I think it's worth it for the other benefits, and most people will have a PC of some sort, anyway, so may as well get a good one and kill 2 birds with one stone but yeah, it's not as one-sided as I thought.

That's great and all, but unfortunately I can't imagine it helping us with the running of tournaments. I think we might be spiralling off topic a bit, lads.

Kanped

Well, I was thinking that small form factor PCs may be a viable alternative to next gen consoles but we don't have enough to go on yet.

Azza

Even small form factor PC's like shuttles would be considerably larger and heavier to transport than the Xbox One and I would presume the PS4 as well.

bush

I have a mini atx pc. Its still pretty big compared to a console

Kanped

Mini ITX or 19" rackmount PCs would be portable enough but that opens up a whole other load of problems. There's also the Piston but it's kinda underpowered and really overpriced. Probably a bad idea, really.

Sairus

So the main points about the XBone that might cause issues for tournaments we've seen so far are:

-The XboxOne is very large. It also requires a Kinect to be attached to use.

-Current gen peripherals will not work with the XboxOne.

-XboxOne is not backwards compatible for digital or physical games.

-XboxOne does not have a standard definition video output for either composite video or component video. (Sorry, Chunkis, no more CRTs)

-All games require an installation on consoles for use. Games can be played while they're installing but specifics of this have not been outlined.

-Conflicting reports say games are locked to profiles once they're installed.

-Conflicting reports say the XboxOne needs to be connected to the internet at least once a day. The penalty for not connecting has not been announced and Microsoft specifically countered the 24 hours announcement by saying they didn't have a set time frame yet.

Azza

Sairus wrote:

-Conflicting reports say games are locked to profiles once they're installed.

-Conflicting reports say the XboxOne needs to be connected to the internet at least once a day. The penalty for not connecting has not been announced and Microsoft specifically countered the 24 hours announcement by saying they didn't have a set time frame yet.

I think both points have been clarified already.

Games will be tied to a players account and will only work on another Xbox One if you log in on the account the game is tied too.

Single player games will work offline (and I assume so would local multiplayer). A internet connection may be required to install the game but after that single player should work fine even without an internet connection.

TheMikenyan

Azza wrote: »

I think both points have been clarified already.

Games will be tied to a players account and will only work on another Xbox One if you log in on the account the game is tied too.

Single player games will work offline (and I assume so would local multiplayer). A internet connection may be required to install the game but after that single player should work fine even without an internet connection.

As far as tournaments go, that means the organisers will not only need multiple consoles and multiple game copies, but they'll also need an additional profile and save state for each, depending on how much unlockable content or DLC is necessary to host the complete game at the tournament. There's no denying it looks messy as things stand right now.

Azza

Looks like the Playstation 4 will be the way to go for running tournaments if we have to use one of the next generation console. But this is probably a problem a year or two away from affecting us. I'd imagine for at least the next two years any major fighting game that's released on the next generation consoles will be also be released on the current generation. Between them the Xbox 360 and PS3 have sold around 150 million units, that's far to big a market to walk away from in the short term.

bush

Azza wrote: »

Looks like the Playstation 4 will the way to go for running tournaments if we have to use one of the next generation console.

Thats if PS4 dont do the same thing. I cant see one console doing this and the other not.

Doctor DooM

bush wrote: »

Thats if PS4 dont do the same thing. I cant see one console doing this and the other not.

You never know, they might be watching the commotion and considering things. All they have to do to win as it stands right now is nothing.

K.O.Kiki

bush wrote: »

Thats if PS4 dont do the same thing. I cant see one console doing this and the other not.

Well as I posted earlier, Sony are actively courting small developers while Microsoft are rejecting anyone without a publisher.

Plus if you want a current-gen example: Microsoft charge for software patches, Sony do not.

Sairus

bush wrote: »

Thats if PS4 dont do the same thing. I cant see one console doing this and the other not.

It's a pretty big deal, but on the other hand one console requires a monthly subscription to play online and the other doesn't. That's just as insane a discrepancy as one console allowing second hand games and the other not.

Rob2D

Sairus wrote: »

It's a pretty big deal, but on the other hand one console requires a monthly subscription to play online and the other doesn't. That's just as insane a discrepancy as one console allowing second hand games and the other not.

Yeah but the publishers don't care if people pay for an online service or not; just so long as people are paying them to play their games. Right now you have to pay for an online pass with some second hand games whether you're on PSN or Xbox. You think Sony have a say in any of that? F**k no, they'll toe the line.

Sony would be in very hot water with some powerful companies if they decided to allow a second hand market. I'd be stunned if they take such a big chance. We might see certain digital only releases or companies might just boycott the system altogether.

At the end of the day, its all about dat paper yo! :pac:

chopperbyrne

So it has been confirmed by Microsoft that the Kinect does need to be attached to the console at all times. (Still no confirmation if it needs to be configured)

It has also been confirmed that it needs to be connected online every twenty-four hours and if it is not connected, you can no longer play games until it is, even games you purchased on disk.

Pretty much rules out the X1 for any tournaments longer than a day.

Hopefully Sony won't go ham with their DRM policies.

UberPrinny_Baal

TheMikenyan

E3 starts at 5:30pm today. Maybe we'll get some good news for a change. Or maybe we'll be further subjected to more poorly thought-out digital rights campaigning.

Doctor DooM

As a small aside, lot of Killer Instinct rumours still out there. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

TheMikenyan

Hope so. That IP's been unused for too long. Personally, all I really want to see this 'surprise' from Capcom - would love for it to be Darkstalkers or Mega Man, but I'm not optimistic.

Rob2D

TheMikenyan wrote: »

all I really want to see this 'surprise' from Capcom - would love for it to be Darkstalkers or Mega Man, but I'm not optimistic.

Could be RE7 which leaked a couple weeks ago.

TheMikenyan

Rob2D wrote: »

Could be RE7 which leaked a couple weeks ago.

They'd want to check their definition of 'surprise' then, because Resident Evil doesn't even come close to qualifying - not when there has literally been at least one market release or re-release annually for the past 17 years. That's like being shocked at there being a new FIFA every year.

Doctor DooM

I saw what I actually think is a leaked list that included this fabled new Vs game that doesn't involve Marvel.