Parades boost NI economy by £55million

junder

Something the parading community have always known but now have it confirmed that the parades actually are a boost to the local economy, and that's not taking into account the boost to the economy brought in by the tourists coming over to watch them.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/parades-generate-55m-for-economy-research-finds-1-5116250

"Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

The report by consultants RSM McClure Watters said the sector boosts the economy by another £15 million a year through direct expenditure, on goods and services, including regalia, uniforms, instruments and bus hire."

TiGeR KiNgS

junder wrote: »

Something the parading community have always known but now have it confirmed that the parades actually are a boost to the local economy, and that's not taking into account the boost to the economy brought in by the tourists coming over to watch them.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/parades-generate-55m-for-economy-research-finds-1-5116250

"Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

The report by consultants RSM McClure Watters said the sector boosts the economy by another £15 million a year through direct expenditure, on goods and services, including regalia, uniforms, instruments and bus hire."

What about the cost of policing the parades and the social cost ?

junder

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

What about the cost of policing the parades and the social cost ?

If you read the full articule it says policing comes to about 7 million

Richard

I find some of these figures a bit hard to believe. Any boost to the local economy is welcome, though I wonder how much contentious parades and people leaving NI to avoid the Twelfth had cost the economy in return.

I don't mean to be cynical and I do welcome the loyal orders' moves to make their parades a tourist attraction, but I do feel there is some way to go here.

Madam

Ah but the research was done by consultants RSM McClure Watters(one of their own)!

Besides, I've yet to meet anyone be they from Europe, America and beyond to want to go to NI when the marching season is on(especially in July) ! No mention at all of all the revenue lost when business's close down and folk bugger off over the border to spend their money for the few days before and after the 12th?

Pete_Cavan

junder wrote: »

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/parades-generate-55m-for-economy-research-finds-1-5116250

"Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

The report by consultants RSM McClure Watters said the sector boosts the economy by another £15 million a year through direct expenditure, on goods and services, including regalia, uniforms, instruments and bus hire."

The report the figures came from is entitled The Socio-Economic Impact of the Traditional Protestant Parading Sector in Northern Ireland. So £39 million is attributed to the provision of facilities, the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising - I understand that there are social benefits arising from these but is there really much economic benefits from them? The £15 million on direct expenditure on goods and services actually involves money changing hands, generating ecomonic activity, gets money flowing and is taxable so there is obviously economic benefits to this. I think it is misleading to lump all the benefits under economic and to claim that £55m is generated for the economy.

junder

Madam wrote: »

Ah but the research was done by consultants RSM McClure Watters(one of their own)!

Besides, I've yet to meet anyone be they from Europe, America and beyond to want to go to NI when the marching season is on(especially in July) ! No mention at all of all the revenue lost when business's close down and folk bugger off over the border to spend their money for the few days before and after the 12th?

You seem to miss the thousands of Scottish people that come to nothern Ireland for the 12th. Moreover belfast city center is starting to wise up and opening up on the 12th to allow those in the city center to watch the parade to spend thier money

Madam

junder wrote: »

You seem to miss the thousands of Scottish people that come to nothern Ireland for the 12th. Moreover belfast city center is starting to wise up and opening up on the 12th to allow those in the city center to watch the parade to spend thier money

I didn't mean to miss out 'ordinary' Scots who do go over to NI, but usually when they go its most definately not for the OO parades! You do know those 'thousands' who go from Scotland for the 12th are OO members (or their hangers on) and not those ordinary folk :rolleyes:

junder

Madam wrote: »

I didn't mean to miss out 'ordinary' Scots who do go over to NI, but usually when they go its most definately not for the OO parades! You do know those 'thousands' who go from Scotland for the 12th are OO members (or their hangers on) and not those ordinary folk :rolleyes:

Regardless of wether of not they are members they still spend money in the local economy.
My band just brought its new uniforms of a local manufacturer cost us over 10grand. Company also makes uniforms for many other bands at Proberly similer prices, that's money and jobs being maintained in the local enconomy

nesf

junder wrote: »

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

I'm unsure why we should count this as a by-product of the parades, any more than why we should count the use of GAA halls around the country for various activities as a by-product of hurling and football. They can usually just be considered as returns on capital investment agnostic of who actually owns the hall. Again, you can consider if the GAA didn't build a hall for the community, some other group probably would have and that there is a GAA hall means that other groups won't bother building their own quite often.

junder wrote: »

The report by consultants RSM McClure Watters said the sector boosts the economy by another £15 million a year through direct expenditure, on goods and services, including regalia, uniforms, instruments and bus hire."

This is the tricky part. We really don't care about money spent on either GAA or the Parades that would have been spent within the country anyway. In terms of economic activity these cancel out because money spent on Parades related activities is money not spent on other recreational activities. What we're really interested in is the money brought into the economy or which would have been spent elsewhere. This is where tourism is a big factor in the Parades and would be their main real contribution to the economy. Secondly any employment directly and indirectly generated should be included (unlike unspent money which can easily find another home, large numbers of employed people can't quickly find other employment if you remove their jobs as is exemplified by the downturn in construction here and the indirect effects this had on employment).


I would not be quick to criticise this report for bias in that these kinds of reports are nearly always biased, either over or under estimating economic contribution based on who is doing the study and/or who is paying for it.

iDave

The Rallies were great for Nuremburgs economy back in the day too.

COYW

Richard wrote: »

I find some of these figures a bit hard to believe. Any boost to the local economy is welcome, though I wonder how much contentious parades and people leaving NI to avoid the Twelfth had cost the economy in return.

Well only a very small number of the parades that happen each year are contentious. The vast majority pass of without issue and the cost of policing them is tiny, as a result.

With all the unjust OO bashing that goes on here, it is nice to see such an article which shows the economic value of the Twelfth. The members of the OO have worked really hard to attract people to NI for the festival and their work is bearing fruit. As junder said, the traders in the the towns and cities has wised up about the festival and are opening up now as well. My sister was up there last year for it and the city was buzzing. The restaurants and pubs were packed. I'm planning to go up this year myself.

I would love to know the number of people from the RoI who go up north for it, as more and more are venturing up for it each year. It is great to see because it will rubbish some of the ridiculous mis-understandings that people have about Orangeism and Protestantism.

junder

COYW wrote: »

Well only a very small number of the parades that happen each year are contentious. The vast majority pass of without issue and the cost of policing them is tiny, as a result.

With all the unjust OO bashing that goes on here, it is nice to see such an article which shows the economic value of the Twelfth. The members of the OO have worked really hard to attract people to NI for the festival and their work is bearing fruit. As junder said, the traders in the the towns and cities has wised up about the festival and are opening up now as well. My sister was up there last year for it and the city was buzzing. They restaurants and pubs were packed. I'm planning to go up this year myself.

I would love to know the number of people from the RoI who go up north for it, as more and more are venturing up for it each year. It is great to see because it will rubbish some of the ridiculous mis-understandings that people have about Orangeism and Protestantism.

You would have lodges and bands coming up from the Republic of Ireland to take part in the 12th I'm sure they bring friends and family along to

Karl Stein

COYW wrote: »

It is great to see because it will rubbish some of the ridiculous mis-understandings that people have about Orangeism and Protestantism.

So it's not an inherently sectarian organization with its roots firmly planted in the maintenance of a group-consciousness of superiority over them damn taigs?

Ignatieff explains how the victory of William of Orange over Catholic King James 'became a founding myth of ethnic superiority...The Ulstermen’s reward, as they saw it, was permanent ascendancy over the Catholic Irish'.

Roe, Paul (2005). Ethnic violence and the societal security dilemma. Routledge. p. 62.

I can't see too many being fooled by the Orange Order's window dressing myself.

SeanW

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

What about the cost of policing the parades and the social cost ?

My thoughts exactly. The parades seem fine to me in general, yes it seems its all about "Ulstermen"s superiority or whatever, but whatever floats your boat, the problem to me is the insistance in following "traditional" routes through nationalist or "Green" areas.

And that never made any sense to me. Why not reroute all your parades through Unionist/Loyalist neighborhoods where they might be welcome - some of your own people might actually like to see the show going past their door?

OCorcrainn

COYW wrote: »

Well only a very small number of the parades that happen each year are contentious. The vast majority pass of without issue and the cost of policing them is tiny, as a result.

With all the unjust OO bashing that goes on here, it is nice to see such an article which shows the economic value of the Twelfth. The members of the OO have worked really hard to attract people to NI for the festival and their work is bearing fruit. As junder said, the traders in the the towns and cities has wised up about the festival and are opening up now as well. My sister was up there last year for it and the city was buzzing. The restaurants and pubs were packed. I'm planning to go up this year myself.

I would love to know the number of people from the RoI who go up north for it, as more and more are venturing up for it each year. It is great to see because it will rubbish some of the ridiculous mis-understandings that people have about Orangeism and Protestantism.

What are you harping on about, people have no issue with Protestantism. You know full well it is Orangeism that people are concerned with. I'm a Protestant and I don't have a lot of time for the OO, and I along with a lot of people north and south regardless of political affiliations have a lot of reservations about the OO.

junder

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What are you harping on about, people have no issue with Protestantism. You know full well it is Orangeism that people are concerned with. I'm a Protestant and I don't have a lot of time for the OO, and I along with a lot of people north and south regardless of political affiliations have a lot of reservations about the OO.

I have a lot of reservations about Sinn Fein and the extra curricula activities of many of its members but difference is the orange order are not in government. As the article states only a very few parades are continuous with the vast majority of parades passing of peaceably. As the residents of rossnowlagh how much the annual orange parade bring into the local economy there. Try getting a hotel in Belfast over the 12th, vast majorty of them are booked solid 6 months in advance plus all those people coming over have to eat, then there's the cost if taxisd, bus hire all mounts up

Madam

junder wrote: »

I have a lot of reservations about Sinn Fein and the extra curricula activities of many of its members but difference is the orange order are not in government. As the article states only a very few parades are continuous with the vast majority of parades passing of peaceably. As the residents of rossnowlagh how much the annual orange parade bring into the local economy there. Try getting a hotel in Belfast over the 12th, vast majorty of them are booked solid 6 months in advance plus all those people coming over have to eat, then there's the cost if taxisd, bus hire all mounts up

LOL They may not be in government but how many are in the OO or have friends and family within government?

As for Rossnowlagh, I'm not sure how much the OO brings to the place where the actual field is, maybe the ice cream vans, burger vans and such that come from further afield are the ones making any money from them. Besides they wouldn't get away with their triumphalism in Donegal - hence thats why some folk kind of enjoy the 'festival':) Although the locals are more bemused by the whole thing than have any vested interest in the shennagins.

junder

Madam wrote: »

LOL They may not be in government but how many are in the OO or have friends and family within government?

As for Rossnowlagh, I'm not sure how much the OO brings to the place where the actual field is, maybe the ice cream vans, burger vans and such that come from further afield are the ones making any money from them. Besides they wouldn't get away with their triumphalism in Donegal - hence thats why some folk kind of enjoy the 'festival':) Although the locals are more bemused by the whole thing than have any vested interest in the shennagins.

How many ira men both provisional and dissidents have friends or family in government? As for the people of rossnowlagh the orange men and women who go down always talk about how well they received by the locals, something that is reflected in the fact that only 2 Gardi are needed to police what is one of the biggest orange parades of the season. The orange men and wen themselves do indeed put money into the local burgher vans, pubs, restaurants hotels etc that are packed to capacity

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

How many ira men both provisional and dissidents have friends or family in government? As for the people of rossnowlagh the orange men and women who go down always talk about how well they received by the locals, something that is reflected in the fact that only 2 Gardi are needed to police what is one of the biggest orange parades of the season. The orange men and wen themselves do indeed put money into the local burgher vans, pubs, restaurants hotels etc that are packed to capacity

I have a friend who owns a restaurant in Rossnowlagh, he had a large group of orangemen visit his premises last summer during the parade there but not to spend any money they used the seating outside his building to enjoy their prepacked picknic, they asked him could he bring them out pints of water before getting on their buses home,
so not sure if the orange parade in Rossnowlagh is the big money spinner that is being made out

solas111

junder wrote: »

Something the parading community have always known but now have it confirmed that the parades actually are a boost to the local economy, and that's not taking into account the boost to the economy brought in by the tourists coming over to watch them.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/parades-generate-55m-for-economy-research-finds-1-5116250

"Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

The report by consultants RSM McClure Watters said the sector boosts the economy by another £15 million a year through direct expenditure, on goods and services, including regalia, uniforms, instruments and bus hire."

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Dubhlinner

I don't see how anyone could argue for a second that an event as major as the 12th would not have a massive economic benefit.

fasttalkerchat

Plus riots help secure refurbishments for local businesses.

Do tourists actually come to watch the OO? I thought it was just from the rough areas of Glasgow and a few National Front types.

Dubhlinner

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Plus riots help secure refurbishments for local businesses.

Do tourists actually come to watch the OO? I thought it was just from the rough areas of Glasgow and a few National Front types.

they're still tourists lol.

I saw a march last summer for first time. Wasn't planning on it, was in a cafe in Portrush it just came out of nowhere. very impressive I must say. I don't know if many tourists do come for it but they should market it that way. no trouble for vast majority of parades. Even in catholic majority towns like ballycastle they can go down without objection

junder

TOMASJ wrote: »

I have a friend who owns a restaurant in Rossnowlagh, he had a large group of orangemen visit his premises last summer during the parade there but not to spend any money they used the seating outside his building to enjoy their prepacked picknic, they asked him could he bring them out pints of water before getting on their buses home,
so not sure if the orange parade in Rossnowlagh is the big money spinner that is being made out

My mother who is an orange women and who visits rossnowlagh every year forgot to book a table so had to grab a sandwich and eat it down the beach last year because everywhere was booked out. See we can both but forward anecdotal story's, but orange men drinking pints of water? That sounds a but far fetched

TOMASJ

Dubhlinner wrote: »

they're still tourists lol.

I saw a march last summer for first time. Wasn't planning on it, was in a cafe in Portrush it just came out of nowhere. very impressive I must say. I don't know if many tourists do come for it but they should market it that way. no trouble for vast majority of parades. Even in catholic majority towns like ballycastle they can go down without objection

Agree with you 100% that these bands should parade where they are appreciated and not to antagonise residents in nationalist towns, where they cant seem get past catholic churches in paticular without getting louder and playing anti catholic tunes, the only tourists that come out in these areas are whats known as the blue bag bragade usually drunk followers of the bands.

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

My mother who is an orange women and who visits rossnowlagh every year forgot to book a table so had to grab a sandwich and eat it down the beach last year because everywhere was booked out. See we can both but forward anecdotal story's, but orange men drinking pints of water? That sounds a but far fetched

I assure you its true, the guy is from the north and works very hard trying to make a living there,
Maybe like your mum they all pack a lunch in case everywhere is booked out,
By the way they did not get the pints of water, but were asked to move on if they did not intend to part with their money.

the_syco

Bull fcuking sh|t, lad. Bullfcuking sh|t, indeed.

From the article;

Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

with a wee bit of editing

Loyal Orders and Protestant marching bands generate almost £55 million in economic and social benefits for Northern Ireland each year, new research has found.

and you get the real non-story.

So, what you really get is

The figure includes an estimated £39 million contribution per annum through the provision of facilities - such as around 750 Orange Halls in the region - and the undertaking of community and volunteer work and fundraising, according to the Stormont funded study.

So lets get the full figure, £55m minus this figure of £39m and you get £16m, of which at least £7m goes towards policing the hooligans.

So the parades take in about £9m. Not a bad figure, but with no figure to compare that to, I don't know if the £9m is far off how much the regions take on a usual bank holiday weekend?

As for the £39m, split between 750 halls, you get £52,000 a year raised through the use of the halls, which is a good sum, but are these purely halls, or is part of that £52,000 similar to the GAA halls that take in money from drink, food, as well as general rental of the venues?

One thing that I know that happens on the 12th; every single person that I know that lives in Belfast has a habit of fleeing to Dublin to avoid the festivities and all the bullsh|t that goes with it. I know not of their religion, as religion has no place in heavy metal, but I do know that they're from both sides, and I leave it at that.

fasttalkerchat

the_syco wrote: »

As for the £39m, split between 750 halls, you get £52,000 a year raised through the use of the halls, which is a good sum, but are these purely halls, or is part of that £52,000 similar to the GAA halls that take in money from drink, food, as well as general rental of the venues?

Orange halls are also used for country music events... heard it on Radio Ulster. I think religious groups use them too.
Not sure if any serve alcohol.

junder

the_syco wrote: »

Bull fcuking sh|t, lad. Bullfcuking sh|t, indeed.

From the article;

with a wee bit of editing

and you get the real non-story.

So, what you really get is


So lets get the full figure, £55m minus this figure of £39m and you get £16m, of which at least £7m goes towards policing the hooligans.

So the parades take in about £9m. Not a bad figure, but with no figure to compare that to, I don't know if the £9m is far off how much the regions take on a usual bank holiday weekend?

As for the £39m, split between 750 halls, you get £52,000 a year raised through the use of the halls, which is a good sum, but are these purely halls, or is part of that £52,000 similar to the GAA halls that take in money from drink, food, as well as general rental of the venues?

One thing that I know that happens on the 12th; every single person that I know that lives in Belfast has a habit of fleeing to Dublin to avoid the festivities and all the bullsh|t that goes with it. I know not of their religion, as religion has no place in heavy metal, but I do know that they're from both sides, and I leave it at that.

I head that alot from people living in the republic. All these thousands of people apparently leaving Belfast, you would think it was a ghost town over the 12th yet the city is packed majorty of hotels are booked out months in advance. City traders are now even starting to wise up and realease they have thousands of people who are a captive audience in the city center with hours to waste into between the morning parade and afternoon parade. I don't think people actually get the scale of the 12th parade. It's massive and unless you have seen it from beginning to end it's difficult to comprehend the size of it we are talking tens of thousands of people either watching or taking part and the Belfast 12th is only one of hundreds of 12th parades taking place across Northern Ireland a couple of which are the same size as the Belfast 12th. All these people attending these parades are going to be spending money

Broxi_Bear_Eire

TOMASJ wrote: »

I have a friend who owns a restaurant in Rossnowlagh, he had a large group of orangemen visit his premises last summer during the parade there but not to spend any money they used the seating outside his building to enjoy their prepacked picknic, they asked him could he bring them out pints of water before getting on their buses home,
so not sure if the orange parade in Rossnowlagh is the big money spinner that is being made out

I live in Donegal and most certainly have no vested interest inthe OO but a few years ago my son was doing a project on the Order in Donegal. I took him up to Rossnowlagh to watch the Parade. We then went back a few days later to talk to publicans cafe owners etc and in the vast majority of cases they stated that it was a great event for the community and that it brought in much needed revenue.
Take from that what you will

TOMASJ

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I live in Donegal and most certainly have no vested interest inthe OO but a few years ago my son was doing a project on the Order in Donegal. I took him up to Rossnowlagh to watch the Parade. We then went back a few days later to talk to publicans cafe owners etc and in the vast majority of cases they stated that it was a great event for the community and that it brought in much needed revenue.
Take from that what you will

If you and your son have no vested intrest in the orange order why were you doing a project on them?

TOMASJ

junder wrote: »

I head that alot from people living in the republic. All these thousands of people apparently leaving Belfast, you would think it was a ghost town over the 12th yet the city is packed majorty of hotels are booked out months in advance. City traders are now even starting to wise up and realease they have thousands of people who are a captive audience in the city center with hours to waste into between the morning parade and afternoon parade. I don't think people actually get the scale of the 12th parade. It's massive and unless you have seen it from beginning to end it's difficult to comprehend the size of it we are talking tens of thousands of people either watching or taking part and the Belfast 12th is only one of hundreds of 12th parades taking place across Northern Ireland a couple of which are the same size as the Belfast 12th. All these people attending these parades are going to be spending money

Why dont you nip over to say for example Pomeroy or Stewartstown in Tyrone next time the orange men parade, you will be lucky if you find any bars shops or resturants open, because most are catholic owned the breathern do not frequent them

Karl Stein

What's the premise of the OP anyway?

X 'creates' economic activity therefore X is virtuous?

War creates economic activity.

junder

TOMASJ wrote: »

Why dont you nip over to say for example Pomeroy or Stewartstown in Tyrone next time the orange men parade, you will be lucky if you find any bars shops or resturants open, because most are catholic owned the breathern do not frequent them

Would they be welcome in these 'catholic' owned bars

pablomakaveli

So basically what is a celebration of sectarianism makes a bit of money for the North?

I'm sure any hate march that draws a big crowd would boost a local economy wherever it happens in the world. It doesn't make the hate march itself okay does it?

Iwasfrozen

pablomakaveli wrote: »

So basically what is a celebration of sectarianism makes a bit of money for the North?

I'm sure any hate march that draws a big crowd would boost a local economy wherever it happens in the world. It doesn't make the hate march itself okay does it?

Depends on how much money. :cool:

"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to charge or try."

junder

pablomakaveli wrote: »

So basically what is a celebration of sectarianism makes a bit of money for the North?

I'm sure any hate march that draws a big crowd would boost a local economy wherever it happens in the world. It doesn't make the hate march itself okay does it?

Just because you disagree with it does not make it a 'hate' march. Your falling into the trap of generlization, i would expect better of you. I take part in the 12th and I am proud to do so, and yet I am not sectarian. You see a minority act stupidly and tar us all with the same brush in much the same way as the knee jerkers are blaming all Muslims for the actions of the two so called radicals that hacked a soldier to death.

Karl Stein

junder wrote: »

Your falling into the trap of generlization, i would expect better of you. I take part in the 12th and I am proud to do so, and yet I am not sectarian.

See what you did there? You said he was 'falling into the trap of generalization' and then you suggest he judges marching and all that craic based on the one (not typical) example of you who participates in such things?

Broxi_Bear_Eire

TOMASJ wrote: »

If you and your son have no vested intrest in the orange order why were you doing a project on them?

He was doing a project for his history in school about just that the history of the OO in Donegal. Whether you like it or not they are part of our history
So no we don't have any vested interest.

pablomakaveli

junder wrote: »

Just because you disagree with it does not make it a 'hate' march. Your falling into the trap of generlization, i would expect better of you. I take part in the 12th and I am proud to do so, and yet I am not sectarian. You see a minority act stupidly and tar us all with the same brush in much the same way as the knee jerkers are blaming all Muslims for the actions of the two so called radicals that hacked a soldier to death.

The twelfth is triumphalist parading to celebrate beating the catholics and a display of dominance. Thats the root of the whole celebration. All it does is stoke up tensions every year.

There's sectarianism at the heart of this celebration whether conscious or not.

junder

pablomakaveli wrote: »

The twelfth is triumphalist parading to celebrate beating the catholics and a display of dominance. Thats the root of the whole celebration. All it does is stoke up tensions every year.

There's sectarianism at the heart of this celebration whether conscious or not.

It's a celebration of the battle of the boyne which is certinly not about Protestants beating Catholics as well you know. your tarring people with the same brush which in itself is bigotry

pablomakaveli

junder wrote: »

It's a celebration of the battle of the boyne which is certinly not about Protestants beating Catholics as well you know. your tarring people with the same brush which in itself is bigotry

And the battle of the boyne is (wrongly) seen as a victory of protestantism over catholicism bu those who participate in the twelfth.

Also stop trying to paint me as a bigot. I haven't actually said anything that can be classed as bigotry. I haven't said all unionists are x,y or z have I?

Criticizing parades or the OO isnt bigotry.

Madam

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And the battle of the boyne is (wrongly) seen as a victory of protestantism over catholicism bu those who participate in the twelfth.

Also stop trying to paint me as a bigot. I haven't actually said anything that can be classed as bigotry. I haven't said all unionists are x,y or z have I?

Criticizing parades or the OO isnt bigotry.

Truth be known - a lot of protestants in The Republic dislike everything the OO stands for! I suspect it's the same in NI.

junder

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And the battle of the boyne is (wrongly) seen as a victory of protestantism over catholicism bu those who participate in the twelfth.

Also stop trying to paint me as a bigot. I haven't actually said anything that can be classed as bigotry. I haven't said all unionists are x,y or z have I?

Criticizing parades or the OO isnt bigotry.

It is when making making blanket statements such as the orange order is xyz. Membership of the orange order is very diverse and includes moderates like Roy garland. There are also lodges in Ghana and tongo, there are Native American lodges in Canada. There is also an independent orange lodge which is sepperate from the main orange lodge. There is no single orange man 'type'. for me i enjoy the 12th, I look forward to the 12th and when I parade on the 12th the last thing on my mind are Catholics / republicans / nationalists.

junder

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And the battle of the boyne is (wrongly) seen as a victory of protestantism over catholicism bu those who participate in the twelfth.

Also stop trying to paint me as a bigot. I haven't actually said anything that can be classed as bigotry. I haven't said all unionists are x,y or z have I?

Criticizing parades or the OO isnt bigotry.

I should add as well that only a minority see the battle of boyne as a victory over Catholics

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Madam wrote: »

Truth be known - a lot of protestants in The Republic dislike everything the OO stands for! I suspect it's the same in NI.

Though I am not a Protestant I know many in Scotland who also feel this way. But many of them feel its the behaviour of certain bands and the hangers on that cause tension and trouble.
Another thing that was pleasantly missing from Rossnowlagh it seemed to me to be much more relaxed

Madam

junder wrote: »

It is when making making blanket statements such as the orange order is xyz. Membership of the orange order is very diverse and includes moderates like Roy garland. There are also lodges in Ghana and tongo, there are Native American lodges in Canada. There is also an independent orange lodge which is sepperate from the main orange lodge. There is no single orange man 'type'. for me i enjoy the 12th, I look forward to the 12th and when I parade on the 12th the last thing on my mind are Catholics / republicans / nationalists.

You see thats what I can't get my head around - why would someone from Tonga or a Native American ect, give a flying fig about a battle fought by a gay icon in a tiny wee island on the edge of Europe?;)

junder

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Though I am not a Protestant I know many in Scotland who also feel this way. But many of them feel its the behaviour of certain bands and the hangers on that cause tension and trouble.
Another thing that was pleasantly missing from Rossnowlagh it seemed to me to be much more relaxed

Generally that is the case and there are many bands that are banned from walking either the loyal orders for thier behaviour

junder

Madam wrote: »

You see thats what I can't get my head around - why would someone from Tonga or a Native American ect, give a flying fig about a battle fought by a gay icon in a tiny wee island on the edge of Europe?;)

So king William is a gay icon then?, have heard the accusation of king William being gay many times before but not that he was an icon in the gay community

Madam

junder wrote: »

So king William is a gay icon then?, have heard the accusation of king William being gay many times before but not that he was an icon in the gay community

Well he does look lovely on his big white horse with his long flowing locks and 'those' velvet breeches :cool: I can see why he'd be a gay icon don't you?.:):):)