Curtis Axel Thoughts?

markcahill1985

Interested to know peoples thoughts on Curtis Axel? I like the guy and think he is very good in the ring although his mic work hasnt been the greatest! Do people think this is a real push for him or is it just a way of keeping Heyman on TV while Punk is on hiatus and until Brock is scheduled to appear again? Think its an interesting one!

Met him in Dublin in April and is a very nice guy, stopped a talked for a good few minutes so hope he does well! Should have just called him Joe Hennig tho!!! Love the music also!

DM_7

I think its a mix of What do we do with Heyman / WWE were looking for a way to repackage McGillicutty. Lets see how it goes.

with so many shows and as proved already Heyman can still be involved with other 'clients' when Brock and Punk are around. We won't see them on Smackdown for example and Brock will never be full time.

His ability to have a good wrestling match is well proven on NXT and Superstars. A manager is exactly what was needed to help him develop over time on RAW, Smackdown and PPVs.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Really enjoyed his Superstars bout with DiBiase a few weeks ago so glad to see him get pushed again. Big man who can work - could go far.

grames_bond

I have always liked his in ring work - he can go and the screaming at the crown thing always showed the fire in him! Really hope he goes far and with Heyman I htink we could be looking at a future star!

Mr.Saturn

He'd a pretty good run with Tyson Kidd on NXT last year, so I'd be excited to see his persona round out his ring-work.

Handsome Bob

Not sold on the guy and to be honest, I think Heyman's skills could have better served elsewhere. But of course it's early days, and he does seem well liked so hopefully it works out for him.

I know rovert posted a few background tidbits yesterday but I'd be still curious to know how much of an influence Heyman had in picking his next "guy". If it was a lot, that would make me feel a whole lot easier about the thing.

Lord TSC

I'm all for a sustained push of a new talent, though I'm reluctant to get behind someone like him given the way WWE loses faith/interest after a few weeks.

So basically, 100% of my reservations are about how he'll be booked, rather than about the individual.

markcahill1985

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm all for a sustained push of a new talent, though I'm reluctant to get behind someone like him given the way WWE loses faith/interest after a few weeks.

So basically, 100% of my reservations are about how he'll be booked, rather than about the individual.

Feel the exact same way to be honest! Cant help but feel that Once Punk and Brock are back on TV then Hennig will be back to jobbing! Really hope Im wrong as I like the guy for some reason!

Omackeral

A tag team in the Heyman Guys stable would've be cool, like it used to be in the Dangerous Alliance.

I think it would've been a sweeter deal if they brought Ted DiBiase with him and made a tag team. Play on the word Pedigree (which they have through 3rd generation lineage) and maybe even name them that, then have them conceivably take out HHH. I still like the choice though.

JP Liz V1

By all accounts Joe is will liked by all in WWE, so good to see him get a push (would prefer Kidd to myself better in the ring imo)

It will be interesting to see who he feuds with first as Curtis Axel, will it be HHH (doubt it tbh) or someone else, as I said in the Raw thread, the IC and US titles are on heels, the mid card faces are really only Kofi, Miz and Truth with maybe Cody if he turns face (being Kaitlyn's admirer) so imo a feud with someone like Jericho, Rey or Christian could be good for him

CastorTroy

Found it strange how Heyman explained his name. Don't they usually just bring out wrestlers and call them by their new name as if it is their real name, whether they're known already or not?

Like I haven't heard anyone explain on air why Ryback changed his name from Skip Sheffield.

SureYWouldntYa

Like him and his work too. But the name is god awful, Axel Curtis would be better, or Axel Henning, or his real name anything apart from what it is. It sounds like a name a parent gives a kid thinking it will make them cool

Omackeral

CastorTroy wrote: »

Found it strange how Heyman explained his name. Don't they usually just bring out wrestlers and call them by their new name as if it is their real name, whether they're known already or not?

Like I haven't heard anyone explain on air why Ryback changed his name from Skip Sheffield.

Was it ever alluded to that he was returning? Or was it a debut, like Fandango without a mention of Johnny Curtis.

Oh and as a side note. Ryback is his nickname which stems from his real name. Ryan Reeves, built like a Silverback.

Ridley

Omackeral wrote: »

I think it would've been a sweeter deal if they brought Ted DiBiase with him and made a tag team. Play on the word Pedigree (which they have through 3rd generation lineage) and maybe even name them that, then have them conceivably take out HHH.

The Pedigree Chums?

DM_7

I think John Morrison had an in ring renaming from Johnny Nitro

Endaaaagh

I'm just glad that starting this moment, from now..from this moment on, this will be the moment, starting now of the genesis of Mcgillicutty:D:D:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS8HGR4U9GE

Ando's Saggy Bottom

McGillicutty was a God awful name anyway so anything was a step up.

ShagNastii

Axel Hennig would share the link and sound infinitely more boss than Curtis Axel.

Pining him with Heyman is great. I think Heyman has done amazing work since his return. Really hope it progresses into a full blown stable ala the Heenan family.

They should make him "the perfect technician" of the Heyman guys. Punk-Mouthy douche. Brock-monster. Axel- wrestling master.

QikBax

ShagNastii wrote: »

Axel Hennig would share the link and sound infinitely more boss than Curtis Axel.

Pining him with Heyman is great. I think Heyman has done amazing work since his return. Really hope it progresses into a full blown stable ala the Heenan family.

They should make him "the perfect technician" of the Heyman guys. Punk-Mouthy douche. Brock-monster. Axel- wrestling master.

Yeah have them run riot then turn The Shield face and have an amazing 6 man tornado at Mania.

GTR63

Rafa's Wrinkly Ballbag wrote: »

McGillicutty was a God awful name anyway so anything was a step up.

When a man with that username says that you know its bad. :pac::pac:
Hard to know what to make of him so far it didn`t help him getting the slap but its still early days.

DM_7

Supposed to be set for Monday's RAW

Jericho's Highlight reel - with Heyman and Axel.

Yes please.

Sirsok

GTR63 wrote: »

When a man with that username says that you know its bad. :pac::pac:
Hard to know what to make of him so far it didn`t help him getting the slap but its still early days.

Its only a slap, no one will remember a slap in a few weeks, if he is pushed properly

Rjd2

They changed the theme and made it all generic.

Riddle101

Didn't care for him in the past but willing to give him a chance with this new character change. As people have said, he's pretty good in the ring but bad on the mic. But I guess that's what Heyman is there for. Hopefully he'll develop over time, with Heyman's help and get better.

As for the name. I think it's a nice fit for him. Taking his father's and his grandfather's name. But then again, didn't The Rock do the same thing when he debuted, when they called him Rocky Maivia. That didn't go very far. But Curtis Axel is a better name then Michael McGuilicuty.

Handsome Bob

Riddle101 wrote: »

Didn't care for him in the past but willing to give him a chance with this new character change. As people have said, he's pretty good in the ring but bad on the mic. But I guess that's what Heyman is there for. Hopefully he'll develop over time, with Heyman's help and get better.

As for the name. I think it's a nice fit for him. Taking his father's and his grandfather's name. But then again, didn't The Rock do the same thing when he debuted, when they called him Rocky Maivia. That didn't go very far. But Curtis Axel is a better name then Michael McGuilicuty.

It wasn't the name that kept The Rock back.

Riddle101

Handsome Bob wrote: »

It wasn't the name that kept The Rock back.

True but the name still didn't go very far. But i'm not complaining, The Rock is a better name then Rocky Maivia.

rovert

I was a booster for the guy as an underpushed talent but I still don't know what to make of his push after watching both Raw and Smackdown. As 50/50 as someone could someone could be. There's this weird place where Heyman's speeches land on for me between effective hyperbole that generates heat for Axel and silly hyperbole that will lead to fans not taking him serious as Curtis comes off as a goof.

QikBax

He's being pushed so hard he had the honour of working under Sin Cara's ridiculous dimmed lights.

Mr.Saturn

jamc wrote: »

He's being pushed so hard he had the honour of working under Sin Cara's ridiculous dimmed lights.

Which actually matched the colour scheme of Perfect Jr's entrance video. Maybe it was an unspoken 'winner gets the mood-lighting' bout, and Axel's now got the unfortunate honour of working in a ring that looks like karaoke-night in a chain bar.

markcahill1985

Thought they handled Axel a bit better on Raw this week! Felt he looked good in the main event with Cena, got a good bit of offence in before Cena got bored of it and ran after the ambulance!! Have a feeling he may end up against Jericho at Payback with a Cm Punk no show! Would make sense!

Lord TSC

The booking was better, but I can't think of anyone who got over by being a guy who got his ass handed to him for 15 minutes and then "won" because his opponent ran off to do something better...

If he got a win over HHH last week by capitalising on the problems, and then a win on Cena via rollup or something cause of the distraction, he'd be doing far, far better as a top level heel next week.

Riddle101

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

The booking was better, but I can't think of anyone who got over by being a guy who got his ass handed to him for 15 minutes and then "won" because his opponent ran off to do something better...

If he got a win over HHH last week by capitalising on the problems, and then a win on Cena via rollup or something cause of the distraction, he'd be doing far, far better as a top level heel next week.

Agreed, but I doubt WWE is going to have him beat Triple H and Cena by pin, even if it's a dirty victory. This is the best victory a guy like him can ask for when facing the likes of Cena and HHH.

DM_7

The match was pretty even though

Ando's Saggy Bottom

The "wins" against HHH and Cena are the kind of thing a slimeball heel hyperbole machine like Paul E can milk for months on end.

Remember folks Curtis is a heel so dominant wins against superfaces won't happen too often. Especially when you have a guy like Heyman in your corner, cheap wins are always going to be the order of the day.

ShagNastii

I'm all for a decent push to somebody new but It's so hard to find the threat of Curtis Axel believable. The guy has, only months ago, been spending most of his time jerking the curtain on Superstars.

Put him with Heyman yeah, but repackage him totally to start a fresh. The guy getting up in HHH's face is pretty much still johnny no threat from NXT.

DM_7

He got a new name, new manager and was not on regular tv in the US for a long time before making his return as Curtis Axel. I am not sure what else they could do except change his look and pretend he was not ever seen before.

If they did that then they couldn't use the argument he put forward when questioned by Bret Hart backstage. Which would be a shame and as he couldn't use it to show why he has developed a bond with Heyman.

Lord TSC

I guess the argument shouldn't be "What can we do to make people forget he's been a jobber for the last few years" and more "Why was he a jobber for the last few years".

There's a limit to how well you can push someone who has been utterly destroyed in the eyes of fans over the last few years. At least if it was someone different and fresh (an NXT guy, like Hero or Pac for example), then you'd have a clean slate to build on. A new gimmick and a mind wipe for the commentators wouldn't fix it. Fans still wouldn't buy it. For me, the likes of Axel has been tainted in so many ways. At least, for example, Ziggler had the charisma and talent to make you ignore his past. Bryan too. But I don't believe Axel does, so I've no reason to really invest in his character at all, especially since I guarantee that Cena buries the win next week.

It's a problem with WWE as a whole though; they'll introduce someone and do stuff with them for a while. Then they'll turn them into jobbers for weeks/months/years. And then suddenly, they'll decide to push a guy to the moon, while also having the likes of Cena mock him. And then, in a few weeks, there'll be reports of how they are baffled people aren't buying into the guy, and they'll turn him into a jobber again.

DM_7

Axel appeared on Raw and Smakdown about what? 20 times in his career including the last two weeks! His last run on RAW was a couple of years ago now.

I doubt his appearances on NXT and Superstars since then have destroyed him in the eyes of the much greater audience that watches RAW. Hell many people watching his reappearance as Curtis Axel wouldn't have a clue who he was before.

He has improved a lot during the time he first appeared on NXT to joining up with Heyman.

The idea that Ziggler or Bryan are exceptions to your own guidance rules suggest your issue with Axel is more to do with your belief in what he is/could be than what WWE are doing with him.

Ziggler was pretty bad for a long time when it came to the charisma inside getting across on TV. Bryan himself said he had to work and work hard on getting his promos etc to improve before getting to WWE. Axel is as worthy as them when it comes to getting an opportunity to improve himself.

We are not talking about a guy like Kofi or R-Truth here that was pushed, squashed, pushed, squashed repeatedly to the biggest audiences. We are talking about a guy that appeared on a developmental show and Sparingly on a minor show in Superstars while doing the house show circuit to learn his craft.

Sorry that turned into more than I planned :pac:

Ando's Saggy Bottom

They repackaged Ryback pretty well didn't they?

grames_bond

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

They repackaged Ryback pretty well didn't they?

And Husky Harris!

Andersonisgod

It's not been good. No top level wrestler sells a slap like that, even if it is a slap from Triple H. Could you imagine a non-fan seeing this 240+ pound, in his prime guy selling a slap from an (admittedly bulky) 40 year old part-time wrestler? How could they do anything but laugh as he sits on the ground looking shocked. The focus of the match later in the show was even worse, all of the attention focused solely on Triple H, I don't think we got a single shot of Axel after Triple H started stumbling nor did the ring announcer even get to announce him as the winner, his big night and he was glorified extra.

A cheap, meaningless win over Cena does nothing for anybody. Cena looks stupid leaving the ring, matches seem entirely unimportant if wrestlers just suddenly decide to forget about the match they are participating in to have a brief scuffle with somebody else. Axel again looks like a glorified extra, filler in a bigger picture.

The third problem has been that you couldn't say he has been particularly impressive or original in either of those big two matches (admittedly the booking and layout of those matches may have hindered him somewhat) his offence has been generic, his selling nondescript (except for that slap, where it went in all the wrong direction) and his style is just a basic WWE punch/kick/run, so far he's come across as just another WWE clone, which is a huge problem with their development policy. Unlike Lesnar who instantly stood out because of his look, credentials, strong booking and naturally gifted unique performances or Punk's already established indie following, deviations on WWE style matches, ability to connect with an audience and top notch mic work, Axel so far has been just another guy who looks like everybody else and wrestles like everybody else.

DM_7

A non fan wouldn't know Triple H was part time.

When WWE are doing so well with the Shield, Wyatt on the way, Big E getting lots of attention its not the time to be giving out about WWE's development policy either. Its been relaunched by the part timer and its going pretty well over the last 12/15 months.

I get why people want Axel to get pushed as more of a threat, in isolation it is what they should be doing.

With the Shield, Big E even Fandango around in last few months, Ryback before, it makes sense to go a different slow transition route with Axel.

Even on this thread we see people saying he shouldn't even be in his current spot because he wasn't used right in the past or has a history of not being important.

A slower evolution from Superstars to Superstar makes a lot of sense in my opinion.

Andersonisgod

DM-ICE wrote: »

A non fan wouldn't know Triple H was part time.

When WWE are doing so well with the Shield, Wyatt on the way, Big E getting lots of attention its not the time to be giving out about WWE's development policy either. Its been relaunched by the part timer and its going pretty well over the last 12/15 months.

I get why people want Axel to get pushed as more of a threat, in isolation it is what they should be doing.

With the Shield, Big E even Fandango around in last few months, Ryback before, it makes sense to go a different slow transition route with Axel.

Even on this thread we see people saying he shouldn't even be in his current spot because he wasn't used right in the past or has a history of not being important.

A slower evolution from Superstars to Superstar makes a lot of sense in my opinion.

A non-fan wouldn't, a casual fan would. They would know this based on the fact that if they were to watch Raw once a month, they'd see Triple H maybe 3 or 4 times a year. If they were to do this over a 3 year period they might be lucky enough to see him wrestle on raw once.

Just because Wyatt is on the way it doesn't mean they are doing well with him. It just means he is on the way. Is Langston getting a lot of attention? He's only been wrestling Del Rio because of the injury to Ziggler, it's also hugely debatable as to whether he is even worth pushing.

Fandango has already begun a descent into the mid card.

You say it's going well, over a 12/15 month period I'm struggling to think of any wrestler that has been introduced under his developmental policy that is a genuine money drawing star. Of course maybe over 3-4 years he might find one gem, but right now that looks like a pretty big if.

Right slimey wins, a different way to go, we get that. Will it work? I doubt it. He's gone from losing on Superstars to Raw main event in literally a week. He isn't somebody whose had no tv exposure, some people will recognise him from Nexus, where again he was an interchangeable extra. For him to be taken seriously, to be considered a genuine threat and an instant (in the sense of the repackage) superstar he needed a win, a real win over a big name.

Also your comment doesn't tackle the core issues of why I don't think he will be a success, namely that the man is currently a clone.

DM_7

Your clone issue, I considered to be a non issue so I didn't bother to address it. Wrestling the WWE way won't stop someone having a big career in WWE.

Fandango would have to leave the mid card to go back into it. Big E made his debut by destroying Cena and its pretty obvious he is going to be a star and WWE have done a great job of getting his face well known.

The booking of the Shield is superb and they along with Ryback are main eventing TV shows and PPVs already , thay equals making them money. That is just from the last 12 to 15 months. Getting a group of three and one guy (making two acts) to that level, in that period of time is a great success.

add in Swaggers return to where he was before leaving TV, that the mid card was filled out with Cesaro and Sandow who have potential to be pushed to a much higher place, the return to form for Del Rio and WWEs work since Triple H got more involved with development and moved Johnny Ace out of the way has been really good.

EDIT: I meant to say, Axel is presented as a threat because of his heritage and because he is guided by Heyman, A big win would be great of course but he is only around in his current form for two weeks so he didn't have to get the big win immediately since he has other plus points that WWE are actively promoting.

Andersonisgod

DM-ICE wrote: »

Your clone issue, I considered to be a non issue so I didn't bother to address it. Wrestling the WWE way won't stop someone having a big career in WWE.

Fandango would have to leave the mid card to go back into it. Big E made his debut by destroying Cena and its pretty obvious he is going to be a star and WWE have done a great job of getting his face well known.

The booking of the Shield is superb and they along with Ryback are main eventing TV shows and PPVs already , thay equals making them money. That is just from the last 12 to 15 months. Getting a group of three and one guy (making two acts) to that level, in that period of time is a great success.

add in Swaggers return to where he was before leaving TV, that the mid card was filled out with Cesaro and Sandow who have potential to be pushed to a much higher place, the return to form for Del Rio and WWEs work since Triple H got more involved with development and moved Johnny Ace out of the way has been really good.

I think it most certainly is an issue and a big issue. He looks generic, like a template for a create-a-wrestler in a WWE video game. He wrestles generically. He hasn't shown himself to be particularly outstanding on the mic, indeed he sounds rather generic and isn't even close to the pick of the bunch charisma-wise of those called up under this Triple H revolution. If there's nothing, nothing at all unique or original about him, how will he be a money drawing headliner?

There's layers to the mid card, he was working with Jericho at Wrestlemania, he is now tumbling with the pre-show workers in Barrett and Miz.

Again debatable that he should have even received the push when there are others who are far more suited to thrive had they received the same push.

The Shield booking has been strong and enjoyable, I am not disputing that. But has anybody paid to see Ryback wrestle? When the pressure was on, when WWE looked for their biggest buyrate of the year it was Cena, Rock, Undertaker, Punk, Lesnar and Triple H that they called on, Ryback was in a nothing match against Henry (which he lost). He's main eventing ppvs and shows but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that it's Cena drawing the money. I could become WWE head honcho tomorrow, stick David Otunga in the main event of a few tv shows, house shows and a B level ppv and say "look I created a main eventer!" but in reality he isn't, he is just the guy that currently happens to be in the ring with John Cena. Crowd reactions to Ryback have been lousy and rightly so, he's been on tv quite a while now and the only chant you can hear when he appears is "Goldberg" indeed the only person who has come away from this Ryback debacle with their star increased seems to be Goldberg, who must be well chuffed that fans from WWE remember him so fondly despite a disappointing run that only lasted a year.

Same applies to Swagger as it does to Ryback, only difference is Swagger is now also starting a steady descent into the dreaded mid card. Cesaro would have been a far better candidate to be the Heyman guy, he is currently a glorified jobber on the main shows, as it Sandow. Wait why are we giving Triple H credit for Del Rio? Wasn't Del Rio about before Triple H took the reigns? Also hasn't Del Rio been a pretty average top level face? The reactions he receives are not anything to write home about and again, he (and his title) were relegated to the mid card for Wrestlemania.

DM_7

I never said anyone was a Super dooper superstar from the last year. I don't think 12 to 15 months is a realistic timeframe to get anyone to that level either.

Jericho went down the card to work with Fandango so he is where he was meant to be.

I mention Del Rio as something WWE changed, my posts were not all about Triple H, he has done well in a role I thought he would be terrible at.

Ryback to his credit was in WWE title matches and the main events of PPVs within a year of his repackaging. Now we are into May/June of 2013 and he is still there, that is success in my view. He gets a much better reaction than you make out as well.

Ryback is already on the level of Sheamus for example.

I feel you are downplaying how well WWE have done bringing new guys through in the last year or so, you think I am overplaying it, fair enough. That is not likely to change.

all the above aside when it comes to Curtis Axels repackaging I don't think big clean wins against Triple H or John Cena were needed or would make a huge differance to how he is viewed. The fact he is associated with those names was a good start. I think his wrestling ability is good enough to be where he is, will improve more and he is in the right spot for now. It was a good start and thats all it needed to be for me.

I don't disagree that Cesaro would be perfect for Heyman, but when Punk and Lesnar are back Axel will take a back seat and probably be back up. That is why he was picked and why he isn't getting over pushed. He will be associated with top talent and in the long run should help him. No point putting Cesaro in that position the protege role really wouldn't be best use of him.

Andersonisgod

DM-ICE wrote: »

I never said anyone was a Super dooper superstar from the last year. I don't think 12 to 15 months is a realistic timeframe to get anyone to that level either.

Jericho went down the card to work with Fandango so he is where he was meant to be.

I mention Del Rio as something WWE changed, my posts were not all about Triple H, he has done well in a role I thought he would be terrible at.

Ryback to his credit was in WWE title matches and the main events of PPVs within a year of his repackaging. Now we are into May/June of 2013 and he is still there, that is success in my view. He gets a much better reaction than you make out as well.

Ryback is already on the level of Sheamus for example.

I feel you are downplaying how well WWE have done bringing new guys through in the last year or so, you think I am overplaying it, fair enough. That is not likely to change.

all the above aside when it comes to Curtis Axels repackaging I don't think big clean wins against Triple H or John Cena were needed or would make a huge differance to how he is viewed. The fact he is associated with those names was a good start. I think his wrestling ability is good enough to be where he is, will improve more and he is in the right spot for now. It was a good start and thats all it needed to be for me.

It's very ambitious but I don't think it's unrealistic. Off the top of my head, Goldberg and Brock Lesnar were over big within a year of their debuts.

Wow those are semantics at their finest. Either way, Fandango is being dragged into the mid card and a promising start has not been capitalised on.

From heel to face? It happens often enough and you wouldn't exactly day its been a rousing success either.

Like I said, give me a chance and I'll do exactly the same thing with David Otunga/Jimmy Uso ect. that they have done with Ryback. To me he is, what I like to call, a "phantom headliner" somebody thrust into the main event despite not being over and despite not being a draw. I'd love to know where he gets these reactions, the other night on Raw he came out and all you could hear was Goldberg chants, a few weeks ago he came out dressed in his leather garb complete with hat and all you could hear was Goldberg chants, and rightly so because it was as if WWE had raided Goldberg's locker aswell as his gimmick.

I think we could even have a pretty serious debate as to how over Sheamus actually is too.

I'm not doubting that they have brought new guys up to the main roster, anybody can see that there are new faces on the television. I am doubting the success of these promotions to the main roster.

I don't think they would have made massive differences but I definitely think a clean, or even almost clean, victory over either would have been far better than what actually happened. While a victory may not have made the situation a huge amount better, what they did made it considerably worse. Personally I don't think selling a slap like that (even if it is the mighty Triple H doing the slapping) or being somebody in the background on the night of his big break is a good start. He might improve slightly as he gets older but I can't envision huge improvement, the WWE system makes it ridiculously difficult to facilitate huge improvement. Fair enough, you've enjoyed it so far and it might be enough for you, I just can't imagine many other people saying "man lets watch Raw tonight, Curtis Axel's gonna be on."

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Well the shield are keeping me tuning in every week.

Andersonisgod

Ando's Saggy Bottom wrote: »

Well the shield are keeping me tuning in every week.

They are the best thing in WWE right now, no doubt about that. I'm also not here solely to rag on WWE, they've done a good job with The Shield, they've protected them, apart from that ridiculous Cena comeback a few weeks ago on Raw, they've been given time in the ring to show their considerable skills and I think they are quite over as a result. Thus far its been a success.

However thus far they seem to be the exception to the rule.

DM_7

I would have said Goldberg and Brock are and always will be the exception.

As far as the semantics comment goes, thanks for that, I referenced Jericho moving down to take on Fandango as you referenced layers of mid card to support your idea he has somehow moved down the card even though he is in the exact same spot he was when he debuted.

Ryback was getting good reactions as a face with lots of Feed me more chants. Now the Goldberg chants are coming back to the fore as the main thing we hear, personally I think that is because he is a heel and feed me more was replaced by Ryback Rules in his repertoire, chanting Goldberg is a complement at this stage and akin to a Kurt Angle You suck chant.

I disagree with your phantom headliner theory when it comes specifically to Ryback simply because of other people that got the big push but didn't last. Ryback got to the spot of working with the best heel and now the best face, that is pretty successful in my book. Obviously how he is booked is part of that, so to me WWE deserve credit for making him credible.

Nobody would get much argument with me if they wanted to talk about how over Sheamus' actually is, he was referenced by me as he is one of the very few people that arrived and did anything of note in the last 5 years while Johnny Ace was in charge of development and in a few short months Ryback caught up with him. So comparing the last year to previous years makes what they are doing now with new stars look pretty good. I am not saying its perfect but I do think its a bad time to criticise how they bring people to the main roster.

I say the above to answer your own comments on those matters, now coming back to Curtis Axel.

On one hand your saying he should be getting clean/almost clean wins to make him a credible star, so you are criticising them for not doing enough to get him over.

on the other he isn't good enough to get anywhere, so if they did more to get him over it would bother you as well.

That is a bit confusing and clearly WWE cant win there .

I don't think he is ready to get the big push myself.

I do think he is ready for the protege role and can go further with time, he got repackaged and is associated with the right people and getting cheap wins as a heel. So I maintain his booking was fine and it was a good start.

I don't think anyone is tuning in specifically to see Curtis Axel, but they are tuning in for the Shield. I don't think it makes sense to have another guy, another heel, beating top stars when the Shield are doing it, while Ryback is also doing it. It waters down the impact of those wins so it makes sense to do something different with Axel.

Andersonisgod

DM-ICE wrote: »

I would have said Goldberg and Brock are and always will be the exception.

As far as the semantics comment goes, thanks for that, I referenced Jericho moving down to take on Fandango as you referenced layers of mid card to support your idea he has somehow moved down the card even though he is in the exact same spot he was when he debuted.

Ryback was getting good reactions as a face with lots of Feed me more chants. Now the Goldberg chants are coming back to the fore as the main thing we hear, personally I think that is because he is a heel and feed me more was replaced by Ryback Rules in his repertoire, chanting Goldberg is a complement at this stage and akin to a Kurt Angle You suck chant.

I disagree with your phantom headliner theory when it comes specifically to Ryback simply because of other people that got the big push but didn't last. Ryback got to the spot of working with the best heel and now the best face, that is pretty successful in my book. Obviously how he is booked is part of that, so to me WWE deserve credit for making him credible.

Man the last paragraph is such a weak way of looking at it, a cop-out. He was practically a jobber in The Nexus, he's been on Superstars for ages, he needed something big, something drastic and dramatic to make him in any way menacing and believable in his new role. Instead he's been slapped and twice been relegated to bystander in the background.

Nobody would get much argument with me if they wanted to talk about how over Sheamus' actually is, he was referenced by me as he is one of the very few people that arrived and did anything of note in the last 5 years while Johnny Ace was in charge of development and in a few short months Ryback caught up with him. So comparing the last year to previous years makes what they are doing now with new stars look pretty good. I am not saying its perfect but I do think its a bad time to criticise how they bring people to the main roster.

I say the above to answer your own comments on those matters, now coming back to Curtis Axel.

On one hand your saying he should be getting clean/almost clean wins to make him a credible star, so you are criticising them for not doing enough to get him over.

on the other he isn't good enough to get anywhere, so if they did more to get him over it would bother you as well.

That is a bit confusing and clearly WWE cant win there .

I don't think he is ready to get the big push myself.

I do think he is ready for the protege role and can go further with time, he got repackaged and is associated with the right people and getting cheap wins as a heel. So I maintain his booking was fine and it was a good start.

I don't think anyone is tuning in specifically to see Curtis Axel, but they are tuning in for the Shield. I don't think it makes sense to have another guy, another heel, beating top stars when the Shield are doing it, while Ryback is also doing it. It waters down the impact of those wins so it makes sense to do something different with Axel.

It's not just Brock and Goldberg, there are other examples of wrestlers becoming headliners within a year of debuting. Obviously it's not the norm but after 12/15 months you'd expect more than 1 group, The Shield (consisting of 3 members) to get properly over.

No problem, I'm always here to highlight ridiculous examples of semantics, that's what I do. Surely you could argue that Fandango moved up the card, especially considering he went won the match clean at Wrestlemania.

Dude he had one chant. That's like saying Kozlov was over because people chanted "USA" at him, he had a catchy chant, people got a buzz from chanting it, that was it. Apart from the occasional rendition of that chant you could hear a pin drop the majority of the time he was out there. I don't mean to cause offence or to be flippant but that might be one of the most ridiculous wrestling related comments I've ever seen, chanting "Goldberg" at him is not a compliment. It's the furthest thing from a compliment. It's almost a stance that the WWE fans have taken, as if they are saying that they aren't dumb enough to have forgotten about Goldberg nor gullible enough to accept any old thing that WWE throws at them, including a complete re-hash of Goldberg, complete with attire and random facial twitches. It's anything but a term of endearment.

He was rushed into the Punk match because of the injury to Cena. I honestly think the only time anyone has felt any real excitement about a Ryback match (apart from the inclusion of genuine headliners Punk and Cena) was Ryback's HIAC match with Punk purely because WWE had backed themselves into a corner in regards his streak vs the title. After the streak ended he's been a phantom headliner, his role at the top of the card entirely interchangeable. If Cena left in the morning it would have a serious effect on the product and the financial side of things. If Punk left in the morning it would have an effect on the product and the financial side of things (to a lesser extent) if Ryback left in the morning WWE would have a bit of explaining to do in regards their next couple of Raws and their ppv but then he would be forgotten about and financially the repercussions would likely be minor to non-existent. The man is a phantom headliner who has yet to draw.

Granted more wrestlers seem to be getting a promotion to the main roster under Triple H and I've probably enjoyed The Shield more than any of Ace's introductions. But the difference has been minimal. I would hardly say it's been anything to shout about and to me, the flawed (re)introduction of Axel is a perfect example of short-term booking.

It bothers me from both perspectives. I think he is bland and generic, that's just my opinion of him. However if WWE do actually believe in him (and apparently they do) then if you are going to do something you might aswell do it right. I'd rather it have been done well or it have gone to a different candidate. Instead we've gotten the worst of both worlds, it's been done poorly and it's been done poorly with a pretty disappointing candidate for the role.