You can help!

slowburner

The recent recovery of 899 looted artefacts highlights an upsurge in the illegal activities of treasure hunters using metal detectors.
Important objects and sites of national heritage are now the target of organised gangs and individuals.

Make no mistake, these people are thieves - they are no different to a burglar.
State resources for policing our vulnerable heritage are obviously limited, so it is every right thinking person's duty to be the eyes and ears of the law.

Many of the readers of this forum are regular visitors to national monuments and other sites of historical or archaeological interest.

Please keep an eye (and ear) out for signs of illegal activity and above all, notify the Gardaí as soon as possible.

If 899 objects were recovered, just think how many were not.
Think how many sites were destroyed as these self serving thieves grubbed up our heritage.
Archaeological objects can never be replaced and the information they can give will be lost forever.

Without the help of the public there is no doubt that there will be an epidemic.
With your vigilance, we can help deal with this crime.

Simon.d

There's massive misunderstanding about the law, probably confused by the situation in the UK.. There seems to be the widely held belief out there that if it's not a listed monument, it's fair game.. I think correcting this perception would go along way in addressing this behaviour.. I've come across certain individuals who really should have known better trying to argue that very point to be, and have to say slowburner's concise thread on the law is a really useful signpost to set them straight..

Jakub25

Somebody should think how to change this from the beginning.
It is very important because children are getting gifts (metal detectors)
and after few years they buying better tools.

We all know even 3years old child can destroy contex.
Argos, Smyth toys are selling detectors and promoting treasure hunting.

http://www.toys.ie/Digital-metal-detector-with-LCD-screen-!123498-prd.aspx

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/9116256/Trail/searchtext%3EMETAL+DETECTOR.htm

Hunt for all your lost items and hidden treasures with this clever little metal detector! Your Discovery Channel detector has a rotating, backlit digital LCD screen that shows the status and battery strength. It features a double coil for detecting common metals so you'll be well on your way to detector some goodies!

Cailleachdubh

I thought those 'toy' metal detectors were blocked out of the Irish version of the Argos catalogue? I think they were a few years ago anyway.

cfuserkildare

Not sure if they are blocked or not,

But it is very easy to buy a metal detector here. A bit dense really considering the use of a metal detector is essentially illegal here in Ireland.

Perhaps some sort of campaign against the retailers that sell them is in order?

cfuserkildare

Not really sure if its relevant, but would my post on Rathmore, Co. Kildare fit in here?

Also possible situation at Rodanstown, Co. Meath.

cfuserkildare

Hey dude,

Cheers for that,

Wasn't too sure.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey dude,

Cheers for that,

Wasn't too sure.

You're welcome, dude.

robp

Is there any anonymous tip off line? There really should be.

Fighting Irish

slowburner wrote: »

The recent recovery of 899 looted artefacts highlights an upsurge in the illegal activities of treasure hunters using metal detectors.
Important objects and sites of national heritage are now the target of organised gangs and individuals.

Make no mistake, these people are thieves - they are no different to a burglar.
State resources for policing our vulnerable heritage are obviously limited, so it is every right thinking person's duty to be the eyes and ears of the law.

Many of the readers of this forum are regular visitors to national monuments and other sites of historical or archaeological interest.

Please keep an eye (and ear) out for signs of illegal activity and above all, notify the Gardaí as soon as possible.

If 899 objects were recovered, just think how many were not.
Think how many sites were destroyed as these self serving thieves grubbed up our heritage.
Archaeological objects can never be replaced and the information they can give will be lost forever.

Without the help of the public there is no doubt that there will be an epidemic.
With your vigilance, we can help deal with this crime.

I use to think like you, that all people with MDs were scumbags and knackers out for an easy few euro, since i've started MDing i've realized that it's not like that at all, 99% of MDers are hobbyists out to find lost items made of metal that belonged to this countries ancestors. I've never sold one thing i've found, hell i've even kept all the euro coins from the last 5+ years

Fresh air, exercise, you meet new people, the finding stuff is pretty much just an extra

slowburner

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I use to think like you, that all people with MDs were scumbags and knackers out for an easy few euro, since i've started MDing i've realized that it's not like that at all,

99% of MDers are hobbyists out to find lost items made of metal that belonged to this countries ancestors.

...I've never sold one thing i've found, hell i've even kept all the euro coins from the last 5+ years

Fresh air, exercise, you meet new people, the finding stuff is pretty much just an extra

The clause highlighted above says everything.
There is no other option but to ban you permanently from this forum.

robp

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I use to think like you, that all people with MDs were scumbags and knackers out for an easy few euro, since i've started MDing i've realized that it's not like that at all, 99% of MDers are hobbyists out to find lost items made of metal that belonged to this countries ancestors. I've never sold one thing i've found, hell i've even kept all the euro coins from the last 5+ years

Fresh air, exercise, you meet new people, the finding stuff is pretty much just an extra

Metal detecting Ireland on facebook has 100 likes. There are few detectorists in Ireland. The number of metal detectorists who think their nice guys is probably as little as 2/3 of the total.

Jakub25

I would like to report local bookshop because they promoting treasure hunting.
Bought book which should be never sold in Ireland :mad:

3. What is the law in relation to the Promotion of the Sale or Use of Metal Detectors to Search for Archaeological Objects?

Under the National Monuments Acts 1930 to2004 it is illegal to promote, whether by advertising or otherwise, the sale or use of detection devices for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects...

n

hdowney

The mindset of 'God given right' is one that it is hard to dissuade people from. Also the belief that as they are descended one way or another from our ancestors they have the 'right' to go look for/take/sell etc this stuff......

I doubt most think of ANY of the consequences of their actions except how it would pertain to themselves. More harm than good.

Jakub25

I would like to report illegal use of metal detector without license from Minister for Arts by garda it was few days ago in Dublin.


"Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device"

cfuserkildare

The biggest problem in Ireland seems to be the fact that the attitude of " Lets not destroy Context " means that most sites are unregulated and unpatrolled!

I say this from experience due to having found and reported multiple violations in fairly important sites!!

1 was a known 2nd-3rd century burial mound that a local vicar had invited an " Archaeologist " to excavate said item.

The supposed professional had used a mini excavator to dig a trench through the burial mound and between damaging bones and simply dumping the contents behind the mound, this mess was left open to the elements for approximately 18 months.
Reported twice to both Gardai and the NMS/NMI.

Second event was a cemetery around a 13th century church.
Reported to both Gardai and NMS/NMI and only response i got was from Environmental Health!!

Human bones are still open to the elements to this day!!

Moral of the story is that leaving items in context does not protect them,
It just shows theiving dirtbags that they have nothing to fear if they Steal from ancient sites!!

slowburner

Jakub25 wrote: »

I would like to report illegal use of metal detector without license from Minister for Arts by garda it was few days ago in Dublin.


"Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device"

Why don't you report this to the Gardaí yourself, in person?

mocmo

Jakub25 wrote: »

I would like to report illegal use of metal detector without license from Minister for Arts by garda it was few days ago in Dublin.


"Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device"

How do you know they didn't have a licence?

Dr Strange

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Human bones are still open to the elements to this day!!

If the guards are not interested bypass them and report the bones to the local coroner. They may be taken care of then.

cfuserkildare

Dr Strange,
I reported the Free Bones, but when the Gardai investigated it, they thought it was report of a recent event, once they discovered the bones were old, they simply got back into the car and drove off!! ( According to the householder whose door the Gardai knocked on ).

Arsemageddon

Jakub25 wrote: »

I would like to report illegal use of metal detector without license from Minister for Arts by garda it was few days ago in Dublin.


"Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device"

The National Monument Act 1987 specifically states it is illegal to use a metal detection device to search for archaeological objects.

The cops are searching a potential crime scene for evidence of a murder that may have happened 17 years ago, therefore they do not need to have a licence to use a detection device.

As ever your rambling posts miss the point entirely.

Dr Strange

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Dr Strange,
I reported the Free Bones, but when the Gardai investigated it, they thought it was report of a recent event, once they discovered the bones were old, they simply got back into the car and drove off!! ( According to the householder whose door the Gardai knocked on ).

Yes, I understand. That's why I would suggest the local coroner. At the very least s/he will send someone out and either collect the surface finds or make contact with the duty officer of the NMI. It may move things along quicker if they contact he NMI. There may be questions re responsibility, for example, is the graveyard still under church jurisdiction. IN that case it would be up to the church authorities to look after any exposed bones.

cfuserkildare

It was the local Minister ( COI ) that called in the excavation on the first site,
I do not know of any Archaeologist who would leave a dig in such a terrible condition.
Personally I reckon who-ever did it should be banned from holding any professional post in the industry ever again.

Arsemageddon

cfuserkildare wrote: »

It was the local Minister ( COI ) that called in the excavation on the first site,
I do not know of any Archaeologist who would leave a dig in such a terrible condition.
Personally I reckon who-ever did it should be banned from holding any professional post in the industry ever again.

A vicar can't just tell someone to go and dig a site, the archaeologist would have to have first obtained an excavation licence to carry out the work. When complete the archaeologist would have to have submitted a report to the National Monuments Service and The National Museum of Ireland. Have you looked on excavations.ie for a summary report of work at the site?

Are you certain the bones you saw were human? I've been called out more than once to examine animal bones.

Arsemageddon

Dr Strange wrote: »

Yes, I understand. That's why I would suggest the local coroner. At the very least s/he will send someone out and either collect the surface finds or make contact with the duty officer of the NMI. It may move things along quicker if they contact he NMI. There may be questions re responsibility, for example, is the graveyard still under church jurisdiction. IN that case it would be up to the church authorities to look after any exposed bones.

Suggesting a chat with the county coroner is both a good and (possibly) a bad idea. It's a good idea because The Coroners Act covers the discovery of human remains, not the National Monuments Acts. It's a bad idea because county coroners are a very mixed bunch when it comes to dealing with ancient human remains. Some of them are ridiculously over the top - wanting to shut sites down, calling in the state pathologist, holding a full coroners inquest, etc.

CF could maybe try the National Monuments Service again and try to get in touch with the archaeologist who deals with the relevant county. Failing that they could talk to someone in National Monuments enforcement. Don't waste your time talking to the National Museum.

Dr Strange

I know what you mean.

ivar the boneless

I made comment in relation to this monument in wrong thread
Rathmore site ? did anyone think of contacting local Vicar
first, the numbers on the sign!!

cfuserkildare

It took months to get the Gards to come out,
And yes, the bones were deffinitely human.

The Gardai called the Vicar and eventually got a slightly garbled story about some local archaeologist was called to excavate the site.
No idea why it was left like that.
Totally unprofessional.

I went back perhaps a year later, and found that the hole had been filled in, and the Stone cross now is positioned in the center of the mound.
Looks like it might have been the local maintenance fellas that filled it in.
Really not umpressed by the way this is.

ivar the boneless

Why not contact the archaeologist who carried out the Licenced dig and
let them know your concerns

cfuserkildare

The Gardai spoke to the vicar,
Not me.
Under no obligation to release such info as names etc.

ivar the boneless

seems you have been given the info to research who the archaeologist was
and are reluctant to contact , professional archaeologists reputation takes years of study to get licence
contact him/her them with your concerns
and
where is the other site you speak of ??
I suspect others reading know exactly where I am coming from

cfuserkildare

Think again ivar the boneless,
To do so at the time would have been to Interfere With an Ongoing Garda Investigation!!
The other site is behind Kilkock, Rathmore Church.

ivar the boneless

What are the monument SMR/NMR No's and please dont be sarcastic
Think again! not necessary

I am trying to be constructive and objective
Establish the facts and then make an assumption based upon those facts.
Its archaeology baby.

I am talking in the current context ie today this week etc.

Slowburners point is well made.

cfuserkildare

ivar the boneless,
Please do not jump to conclusions and I quote:-
"seems you have been given the info to research who the archaeologist was
and are reluctant to contact "
And please keep your comments regarding my actions to yourself!!

ivar the boneless

Boards ??
keep comments to yourself!
I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let the dice fall where they may.