Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

Going Forward

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Yeah it does appear to be edited alright, but the sun/clouds don't really corroborate or contradict this.

The sudden appearance of light and shadow doesn't help either.

The lack of continuity in the interview does suggest that it is possible he was speaking for far longer than we have been shown, which gives credence to a claim of it being edited to fit an agenda.

We can see it's been edited with the insertion of that still picture alone, and to my mind what he says sounds a bit mechanical too.

Going Forward

Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

Sgt Martin Collins has confirmed a FF politician, whom he names, made a phone call to his station. He describes him as an 'influential' man
5:09 am - 14 Aug 2016

As someone commented on her twitter, this would be farcical if it wasn't so tragic.



https://mobile.twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/764796171588083712?p=v

Going Forward

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+pain+of+searching+for+Mary+has+never+gone+away%3B+MUM'S+AGONY+36...-a0322382254

In 2013, Mary's mother and Mary's twin Anne were reported as being close, with none of today's animosity.



"Ann, 67, lives alone in Kincasslagh, Co Donegal, since her husband Charlie's tragic death in the sea near their home almost eight years ago.

She will attend a special Mass on St Patrick's Day along with Mary's twin, Ann Doherty, to mark the tragic anniversary.

Later, they will honour her memory at a special grotto beside St Mary's in Kincasslagh."


Published exactly 3 years ago.

tayto lover

Going Forward wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

Sgt Martin Collins has confirmed a FF politician, whom he names, made a phone call to his station. He describes him as an 'influential' man
5:09 am - 14 Aug 2016

As someone commented on her twitter, this would be farcical if it wasn't so tragic.



https://mobile.twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/764796171588083712?p=v

It brings me back to the interview with Brian Lenihan on the Late Late Show some years ago. He told the story of a young Garda raiding a pub with a load of politicians drinking in it late at night. One of them asked the Garda if he "wanted a pint or a transfer".
The audience laughed their hearts out.

What a country we live in.

Going Forward

tayto lover wrote: »

It brings me back to the interview with Brian Lenihan on the Late Late Show some years ago. He told the story of a young Garda raiding a pub with a load of politicians drinking in it late at night. One of them asked the Garda if he "wanted a pint or a transfer".
The audience laughed their hearts out.

What a country we live in.

The difference here is that Gemma O D is making all kinds of claims without backing up any of it.

She's claiming Martin Collins has named the politician.

Someone's telling serious lies at this point.

brooke 2

Going Forward wrote: »

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+pain+of+searching+for+Mary+has+never+gone+away%3B+MUM'S+AGONY+36...-a0322382254

In 2013, Mary's mother and Mary's twin Anne were reported as being close, with none of today's animosity.



"Ann, 67, lives alone in Kincasslagh, Co Donegal, since her husband Charlie's tragic death in the sea near their home almost eight years ago.

She will attend a special Mass on St Patrick's Day along with Mary's twin, Ann Doherty, to mark the tragic anniversary.

Later, they will honour her memory at a special grotto beside St Mary's in Kincasslagh."


Published exactly 3 years ago.

I thought Ann Doherty's daughter, Mary, who was born to Ann before her marriage, and Mary's daughter, Charlie, were living with
Ann Boyle, i.e. Ann Boyle's granddaughter and great-granddaughter were living with her?

Satriale

Bear in mind that the newspaper that seems to be trying to discredit Gemma O Doherty unfairly dismissed her for attempting to ask the Garda Commissioner about getting his penalty point squashed (the same paper whos Editor-in-chief is also a former editor of the "Garda Review").

I'm going to give Gemma the benefit of the doubt here. She done more for this case in a few weeks than's been done by the state for a few decades.

tayto lover

Satriale wrote: »

Bear in mind that the newspaper that seems to be trying to discredit Gemma O Doherty unfairly dismissed her for attempting to ask the Garda Commissioner about getting his penalty point squashed (the same paper whos Editor-in-chief is also a former editor of the "Garda Review").

I'm going to give Gemma the benefit of the doubt here. She done more for this case in a few weeks than's been done by the state for a few decades.

But at some stage she's going to have to produce the goods. You have to be able to back-up your claims otherwise people's faith in you will wane.

oranbhoy67

Not fully aware if the background here but I do know Collins last week did an interview with the indo, that they were about to publish but gemma played them a clip of collins actually saying the politician and and saying it hampered their investigatior

Whether she knew Aiden was also going to the papers I do not know but the footage she has shared since certainly shows him saying quite clearly " It was all hands off from that point on as the the man says " ..

No one is that good at editing or indeed dubbing, me & Gemma do not get on i have made that clear the last few months, but to me here , she looks hard done by.

Gemma has quite an abrasive personality and it makes me personally wonder is that what is behind this, this is not from anything i have been told Just speculating

But as pointed out its a different cover up that needs more immediately investigated , and one that is not political or even gardai related, it does however involve the gardai making a complete mess of original investigation and still not doing anything that I can see to correct that.

Johnboy1951

But as pointed out its a different cover up that needs more immediately investigated , and one that is not political or even gardai related, it does however involve the gardai making a complete mess of original investigation and still not doing anything that I can see to correct that.

+1

..... but I fail to think of what they can do at this stage to be honest.
They cannot 'lean' on anybody these days without them immediately asking for legal representation which will stymie any hope of getting a break.
The only hope I see is a 'falling out' and one blaming another etc. That IMO is unlikely.

oranbhoy67

All I can really think of is a coroner's inquest where everyone involved that day who is still alive has to testify.

Then we can see how their statements match up and see how they matched up from their original statements.
Again id personally like to see an impartial coroner carry this out as I would have no faith in the current Donegal county coroner simply because he seems to have bowed to the whims of Mary's mother & has been less interested in trying to uncover what happened to Mary which IMO shows a complete lack of professional responsibility

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

All I can really think of is a coroner's inquest where everyone involved that day who is still alive has to testify.

Then we can see how their statements match up and see how they matched up from their original statements.
Again id personally like to see an impartial coroner carry this out as I would have no faith in the current Donegal county coroner simply because he seems to have bowed to the whims of Mary's mother & has been less interested in trying to uncover what happened to Mary which IMO shows a complete lack of professional responsibility

Has the local one officially refused in writing or is the absence of his agreeing to one being taken as a refusal?

I know there's talk of not wanting to upset someone; is that his written position on it?

Silly question maybe but can an inquest be ordered by a coroner from a different county?

Even if it could there's no guarantee they would of course.

Just trying to think outside the box.

Johnboy1951

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

All I can really think of is a coroner's inquest where everyone involved that day who is still alive has to testify.

Then we can see how their statements match up and see how they matched up from their original statements.
Again id personally like to see an impartial coroner carry this out as I would have no faith in the current Donegal county coroner simply because he seems to have bowed to the whims of Mary's mother & has been less interested in trying to uncover what happened to Mary which IMO shows a complete lack of professional responsibility

Is it within his powers to initiate an inquest?
I don't think it is unless some pre-existing criteria be present.
Finding the remains would be one, but there are others in the absence of remains.

oranbhoy67

Going Forward wrote: »

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

All I can really think of is a coroner's inquest where everyone involved that day who is still alive has to testify.

Then we can see how their statements match up and see how they matched up from their original statements.
Again id personally like to see an impartial coroner carry this out as I would have no faith in the current Donegal county coroner simply because he seems to have bowed to the whims of Mary's mother & has been less interested in trying to uncover what happened to Mary which IMO shows a complete lack of professional responsibility

Has the local one officially refused in writing or is the absence of his agreeing to one being taken as a refusal?

I know there's talk of not wanting to upset someone; is that his written position on it?

Silly question maybe but can an inquest be ordered by a coroner from a different county?

Even if it could there's no guarantee they would of course.

Just trying to think outside the box.

Ann ( the twin) solicitor said they were told the mothers health was a reason they weren't having an inquest, I doubt they would say that unless they had word of that officialy , I wrote to the coroner months ago & received a reply saying my "interest was noted".. I suppose it might rest on whether if Mary is officially dead or not by law .
Even a state inquiry wouldn't be out if the question here such as those for bloody Sunday & Hillsborough , although the loss of life is not as great I think this case is as important ,I'm biased but I just think this case could uncover loads more.

Cliff Walker

Is it conceivable that the reason the two retired gardai have changed their tune is because they have been threatened by the establishment ?

Smondie

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

..., I wrote to the coroner months ago & received a reply saying my "interest was noted".. ....

is it only family that can do this, or could I as a citizen and interested member of the public forward a letter too requesting an inquest?

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Ann ( the twin) solicitor said they were told the mothers health was a reason they weren't having an inquest, I doubt they would say that unless they had word of that officialy , I wrote to the coroner months ago & received a reply saying my "interest was noted".. I suppose it might rest on whether if Mary is officially dead or not by law .
Even a state inquiry wouldn't be out if the question here such as those for bloody Sunday & Hillsborough , although the loss of life is not as great I think this case is as important ,I'm biased but I just think this case could uncover loads more.

Their "noting your interest" "standard FO and dont be anniying us" is not a satisfactory response from a public office.

If you have no legal standing to request that the coroner initiate an inquest you should be informed of that.

Again this is where purchasing some legal advice should tell you where you stand on that.

Or Anns solicitor should be able to clarify it.

I'm not suggesting he hasn't but I'm not seeing much in the line of facts anywhere:)

Someone did post up the relevant legislation IIRC in the thread, I didn't read it but it may outline the limits (if any) of the coroner's discretion in such matters.

If it doesn't it could still be up for discussion, as in, where does the buck stop with such a "refusal" or has it even been refused "officially" instead of being implied, off the record style.





"(2) Nothing in this section shall authorise a coroner to dispense with holding an inquest in relation to a death if he is of opinion that the death may have occurred in a violent or unnatural manner or in a place or in circumstances which, under provisions in that behalf contained in any other enactment, require that an inquest should be held."

The Coroner should be asked to state in writing that he believes that he is not of the opinion that a death may have occurred in a violent or unnatural manner or in a place or in circumstances which, under provisions in that behalf contained in any other enactment, require that an inquest should be held.


Just my opinion by the way.
I'd welcome the opinions of others on it.

And there's nothing to prevent him holding one just because it's stated in someone's will.




http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1962/act/9/enacted/en/print#sec17

Again ask a solicitor to write a letter seeking the coroner's response to the request in writing.

Johnboy1951

No death has been declared - in any circumstances.
Remember the continuing reference to the child still being alive?

Missymoohaa

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/sudden_or_unexplained_death/missing_presumed_dead.html


A quick Google search threw up the above link. So minister Fitzgerald can order an inquest. I wonder why she isn't.

Missymoohaa

Missymoohaa wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/death/sudden_or_unexplained_death/missing_presumed_dead.html


A quick Google search threw up the above link. So minister Fitzgerald can order an inquest. I wonder why she isn't.

From that link:

a Coroner may make a submission to the Minister for Justice and Equality requesting an inquest if he/she has to reason to believe that a death has occurred in or near his/her district in such circumstances that an inquest is appropriate even though the body may have been destroyed (for example, in a fire) or be unrecoverable (for example, after a drowning). If the Minister thinks it proper, he/she may direct an inquest to be held in relation to the death. A Garda report of the accident is usually submitted and if the verdict by the Coroner is that the missing person is dead, the person can legally be presumed dead and the death can be registered.

Well that answers one question, anyway!
It's in or near the Coroners district.

So how many miles from Sligo/Leitrim is Ballyshannon, exactly?

This link from N. Ireland service is interesting.

https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/Coroners/about/Pages/coroners_about.aspx.

I don't know if the same law applies in N. Ireland, but if so, it could be a very interesting option, Ballyshannon being so close to the border.

Edit:Looks like the N Ireland option is not applicable, unless there was reason to suspect that a death might have occurred in Northern Irleand.

https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/Coroners/FAQ/Pages/coroners_Questions.aspx#25

A Northern Ireland Coroner has no authority to investigate a death which occurs abroad.

Johnboy1951

... if he/she has to reason to believe that a death has occurred in or near his/her district in such circumstances that an inquest is appropriate even though the body may have been destroyed (for example, in a fire) or be unrecoverable (for example, after a drowning).

That usually applies where there is some evidence that a death has occurred.
That is not the case here.
No evidence has been found that indicates a death.

This has already been dealt with earlier in the thread.

Going Forward

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

No death has been declared - in any circumstances.
Remember the continuing reference to the child still being alive?

Technically can a coroner make the call that it is reasonable to conclude there has been a death?

There seems to be a lot of emphasis put on his belief/opinion in regards to believing or having an opinion that a death has occurred in the legislation. ...

Who does he need to get the go ahead from?

Johnboy1951

As I understand it, historically this part

has to have reason to believe that a death has occurred

is interpreted that the coroner must have something tangible to call an inquest.
There is no evidence to encourage a coroner to call an inquest.
No witnesses to give evidence.
No circumstances that rule out other possibilities such as abduction.

Seems to me the coroner is limited by lack of witnesses or evidence.
I would not expect the minister to take any different view.

Going Forward

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

As I understand it, historically this part

is interpreted that the coroner must have something tangible to call an inquest.
There is no evidence to encourage a coroner to call an inquest.
No witnesses to give evidence.
No circumstances that rule out other possibilities such as abduction.

Seems to me the coroner is limited by lack of witnesses or evidence.
I would not expect the minister to take any different view.

I'm not familiar with the legislation, but is the historic use of inquests the right way to interpret it?

On my first reading there's little about evidence being required, but there is a lot about the Coroner being of an opinion and a belief that a death has occurred.

Granted if he's not of that belief he's entitled to that opinion, but it would need to be recorded somewhere.

Thinking out loud, if he were to receive numerous allegations of a death, with sworn statements, how does he actually wash his hands of it?

Maybe stupid questions but if you dont ask!

Johnboy1951

Going Forward wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the legislation, but is the historic use of inquests the right way to interpret it?

On my first reading there's little about evidence being required, but there is a lot about the Coroner being of an opinion and a belief that a death has occurred.

Granted if he's not of that belief he's entitled to that opinion, but it would need to be recorded somewhere.

Thinking out loud, if he were to receive numerous allegations of a death, with sworn statements, how does he actually wash his hands of it?

Maybe stupid questions but if you dont ask!

I don't know the answer, but I expect he would be guided by what evidence, if any, the police might have, showing a death actually took place.
In the absence of evidence of a death, it is not unreasonable to presume life.

Going Forward

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't know the answer, but I expect he would be guided by what evidence, if any, the police might have, showing a death actually took place.
In the absence of evidence of a death, it is not unreasonable to presume life.

Or vice versa.

Going Forward

Here we have what looks like an insinuation that there's a recording of the alleged call:


Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

During the Troubles, the IRA had a habit of recording phone calls to garda stations, especially those close to the border
11:45 am - 15 Aug 2016



Surreal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/765258061435076608?p=v

Going Forward

Going Forward wrote: »

Or vice versa.

This! x1000.

We have the investigating officer on record saying he believes Mary Boyle never left Ballyshannon.

That, coupled with the fact that she disappeared 40 years ago makes it more reasonable to assume death, as opposed to life.

Seth Brundle

Going Forward wrote: »

Here we have what looks like an insinuation that there's a recording of the alleged call:


Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

During the Troubles, the IRA had a habit of recording phone calls to garda stations, especially those close to the border
11:45 am - 15 Aug 2016



Surreal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/765258061435076608?p=v

What is she trying to say?
Is there a recording or is she hoping that there might be?

Going Forward

Going Forward wrote: »

Here we have what looks like an insinuation that there's a recording of the alleged call:


Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

During the Troubles, the IRA had a habit of recording phone calls to garda stations, especially those close to the border
11:45 am - 15 Aug 2016



Surreal.

https://mobile.twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/765258061435076608?p=v

Now that would be a fantastic recording to produce, if it exists.

I hope it does. It would really put the cat among the pigeons.