Anyone know any Sociopaths?

another question

I am doing research on sociopathy/antisocial personality disorder but I am finding it quite difficulty to find any relevant information that it concise and factual. Most of the information or articles available are blog types or opinions/observations/conclusions rather than fact.

Ideally, I was hoping to find articles or information on known/diagnosed sociopaths but I can't find anything much apart from Charles Manson.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of some websites or people I could look at.

Thanks.

JuliusCaesar

Google Scholar.

Links to all published research.

another question

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Google Scholar.

Links to all published research.

Excellent, thank you.

silentrust

another question wrote: »

I am doing research on sociopathy/antisocial personality disorder but I am finding it quite difficulty to find any relevant information that it concise and factual. Most of the information or articles available are blog types or opinions/observations/conclusions rather than fact.

Ideally, I was hoping to find articles or information on known/diagnosed sociopaths but I can't find anything much apart from Charles Manson.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of some websites or people I could look at.

Thanks.

Hi chief,

I run a page along with a friend named "Sociopaths Rock" on Facebook, we have access to some of the available literature. My personal favourite is Dr. Mary Stout's The Sociopath Next Door although I do think the case studies are rather extreme examples. She contends (and I agree!) that actually Sociopathy is much more common than is widely believed.

I have also taken the Hare Psychopathy test at a clinic near Dublin if that's of any interest to you, feel free to send me a message.

dar100

The Psychopath Test is a good book, not in an academic sense, but a good read. The guy who wrote, Men Who Stare At Goats wrote it. Goes into the Hare Check-list and how it is used within institutions to keep individuals institutionalised. Good all round read, also goes into the first therapeutic communities and how teaching Psychopaths empty in a group setting backfired.

MaxWig

silentrust wrote: »

Hi chief,

I run a page along with a friend named "Sociopaths Rock" on Facebook, we have access to some of the available literature. My personal favourite is Dr. Mary Stout's The Sociopath Next Door although I do think the case studies are rather extreme examples. She contends (and I agree!) that actually Sociopathy is much more common than is widely believed.

I have also taken the Hare Psychopathy test at a clinic near Dublin if that's of any interest to you, feel free to send me a message.

Yeah, I'd be wary of the diagnosis itself.

There seems to be no consensus on how psychopathy/sociopathy differs from ASPD.

Socioeconomic factors play a huge part as a result. Always dubious

dar100

There seems to be no consensus on how psychopathy/sociopathy differs from ASPD.

I think in a lot of cases the three are used interchangeable, if I recall correctly the DSM V only describes ASPD, I may be mistaken though

MaxWig

Hi Dar100,

Yes, they're used interchangeably.

My issue with the diagnosis (as with many, if not all, in the DSM), is that it simply groups together a bunch of undesirable behaviours.

silentrust

dar100 wrote: »

There seems to be no consensus on how psychopathy/sociopathy differs from ASPD.

I think in a lot of cases the three are used interchangeable, if I recall correctly the DSM V only describes ASPD, I may be mistaken though

My therapist, a lovely man named Gareth, tells me that inside psych circles, the term ASPD is used, although apparently there are different forms of it. I don't claim to be an expert as I have only just started looking into this myself.

Probably one of the biggest misconceptions seems to be those people who confuse a psychopathic individual with one who suffers from psychosis. Of course Sociopaths/Psychopaths can act aggressively if they discover sadism but it's not an innate part of their make up apparently.

In any case I created my page to ask more questions rather than dispense words to the wise, so look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Re: taking the Hare test, Dr. Stout says Sociopaths in fact are renowned for being eager to submit to psychometric testing so they can work out which answers to give in order to seem mentally healthy, this made me giggle. :-)

dar100

Hi Maxwig,

Yes I would agree that the clustering of behaviours into diagnosis is a limitation of the DSM, just one of many limitations IMO. If you look at the cohort of Personality Disorders there is an overlap on many symptoms

silentrust

MaxWig wrote: »

Hi Dar100,

Yes, they're used interchangeably.

My issue with the diagnosis (as with many, if not all, in the DSM), is that it simply groups together a bunch of undesirable behaviours.

Hear hear!

dar100

[.

Probably one of the biggest misconceptions seems to be those people who confuse a psychopathic individual with one who suffers from psychosis. Of course Sociopaths/Psychopaths can act aggressively if they discover sadism but it's not an innate part of their make up apparently.

Psychopaths are fully functioning individuals when measured against someone with psychosis, I fail to see how anyone could miss this

MaxWig

dar100 wrote: »

[.


Psychopaths are fully functioning individuals when measured against someone with psychosis, I fail to see how anyone could miss this

They are usually fully functioning individuals, period - the vast majority, according to Hares checklist.

I like Hare's assertion that many of the psychopathy traits that he measures for, are celebrated in the modern capitalist society.

silentrust

MaxWig wrote: »

They are usually fully functioning individuals, period - the vast majority, according to Hares checklist.

I like Hare's assertion that many of the psychopathy traits that he measures for, are celebrated in the modern capitalist society.

Of course personal greed and ambition aren't necessarily inconsistent with overall prosperity (Google neo-classical economics).

A deficiency of empathy can be enormously useful. As I understand it we only started to notice and document psycopathy during WW1 when they displayed a marked lack of PTSD when their comrades were going to pieces around them.

Ironically it's also apparently quite common amongst Doctors esp. Psychologists - though if you read the article I did the other day where psychotherapists were wondering if it was OK to be moved to tears when hearing of their clients' experiences, you begin to see the merits!

As suspicious as I am of the Hare checklist, and with the usual caveat about how unreliable anecdotal evidence can be, I am absolutely at a loss to understand how people can be so crippled by guilt, even over issues which don't really seem to have any significance... QED.

dar100

Yes I have often wondered how many of the "elite hierarchy" have these traits. There has been some interesting research conducted which shows that brain activity in psychopathic individuals differs from non-diagnosed populations when showed upsetting pictures and giving a short sharp shock. May actually be mentioned in Hares book

silentrust

dar100 wrote: »

Yes I have often wondered how many of the "elite hierarchy" have these traits. There has been some interesting research conducted which shows that brain activity in psychopathic individuals differs from non-diagnosed populations when showed upsetting pictures and giving a short sharp shock. May actually be mentioned in Hares book

Yes, I think it was featured -it seems mentally "normal" individuals displayed nervousness in anticipation of pain from the shock but psychopathic individuals seemed not to register nearly as much distress.

I believe the other experiment had to do with how they reacted to certain words - psychopathic individuals didn't seem to be moved by words like "rape" and "murder" any more than "blue" or "cat".

dar100

silentrust wrote: »

Of course personal greed and ambition aren't necessarily inconsistent with overall prosperity (Google neo-classical economics).

A deficiency of empathy can be enormously useful. As I understand it we only started to notice and document psycopathy during WW1 when they displayed a marked lack of PTSD when their comrades were going to pieces around them.

We all have an innate baseline level of empathy, in psychopaths this seems to be extremely low or non-existent. Having a low level can be helpful, particularly for therapists as they wont burn out as much as their counterparts with high levels of innate empathy

MaxWig

I'm sure that Hare goes into this in depth.

The paralimbic system is found to react in different ways - i.e. the parts of the brain responsible for guilt, remorse and empathy are dysfunctional

dar100

Interesting article on psychopaths and fear

silentrust

dar100 wrote: »

silentrust wrote: »

Of course personal greed and ambition aren't necessarily inconsistent with overall prosperity (Google neo-classical economics).

A deficiency of empathy can be enormously useful. As I understand it we only started to notice and document psycopathy during WW1 when they displayed a marked lack of PTSD when their comrades were going to pieces around them.

We all have an innate baseline level of empathy, in psychopaths this seems to be extremely low or non-existent. Having a low level can be helpful, particularly for therapists as they wont burn out as much as their counterparts with high levels of innate empathy

I imagine someone like a heart surgeon about to perform a coronary bypass on you - would you want them to break down into tears and refuse to stick a sharp blade into your body as you're another human being? A psychopath would be ideal in this kind of situation, eyes won't be blurred by weeping. :-D

MaxWig

silentrust wrote: »

dar100 wrote: »

I imagine someone like a heart surgeon about to perform a coronary bypass on you - would you want them to break down into tears and refuse to stick a sharp blade into your body as you're another human being? A psychopath would be ideal in this kind of situation, eyes won't be blurred by weeping. :-D

I take your point about surgeons and therapists.

However, I think there is a marked difference between a lack of empathy on the one hand, and the ability to control/park/remain aware of empathy on the other.

silentrust

MaxWig wrote: »

silentrust wrote: »

I take your point about surgeons and therapists.

However, I think there is a marked difference between a lack of empathy on the one hand, and the ability to control/park/remain aware of empathy on the other.

Of course I wasn't suggesting every surgeon is either an emotional wreck or a cold blooded psychopath, nevertheless it illustrates the point that a deficiency of empathy can be a good thing - it seems people view them as people on the fringes of society polishing their gun in secret as they plan to murder their neighbour - Dr. Stout says it's much more likely your Doctor, Priest or Schoolteacher is one.

MaxWig

Empathy is only one of many factors associated with psychopathy.

The others are equally, if not more significant.

Hare, and his colleagues cannot be faulted for the diligence of their research, nor for the thoroughness of their own critique of said research.

But I find the nomenclature associated with these diagnoses to be really strange, when one considers, as you rightly remind us, that many of the individuals that would be labelled psychopath are fully paid up members of the 'normal' brigade.

It almost makes the research itself questionable.

The DSM will eat itself yet

dar100

MaxWig wrote: »

Empathy is only one of many factors associated with psychopathy.

The others are equally, if not more significant.

Hare, and his colleagues cannot be faulted for the diligence of their research, nor for the thoroughness of their own critique of said research.

But I find the nomenclature associated with these diagnoses to be really strange, when one considers, as you rightly remind us, that many of the individuals that would be labelled psychopath are fully paid up members of the 'normal' brigade.

It almost makes the research itself questionable.

The DSM will eat itself yet

There could be an argument made that lack of empathy is the most important factor in psychopathic individuals. If we think about it, would we even have a diagnosis of this disorder if there was no societal impact due to the behaviour of psychopaths? Considering that such individuals are high functioning and often very intelligent, why would such a subject present for treatment? Due to psychopaths showing no fear response, they in turn have no trouble making others afraid, which they may not realise they are doing. An argument could be put forward that higher levels of empathy would counter this behaviour.

MaxWig

I would agree that it one of, if not the most important factor.

My only point is that taken on its own, it really accounts for very little.

JuliusCaesar

The DSM has been rejected by the NIMH; the BPS has issued a statement against the use of psychiatric diagnoses. All in the last year or two.

Odysseus

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

The DSM has been rejected by the NIMH; the BPS has issued a statement against the use of psychiatric diagnoses. All in the last year or two.

JC, I was give a copy of a policy document on the DSM by the Division of Clinical Psychology last week in work.

I had never heard of them before, are you familiar with them?

JuliusCaesar

Yes, they are a division of the Psychological Society of Ireland. I don't think they have issued a statement as an overall body.

The BPS = British Psychological Society.

Personally, I work by individual formulation rather than diagnosis, not being a medical or biomedical model type professional.

MaxWig

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

The DSM has been rejected by the NIMH; the BPS has issued a statement against the use of psychiatric diagnoses. All in the last year or two.

I thought they had rejected the DSM V while remaining faithful to the DSM IV

Odysseus

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Yes, they are a division of the Psychological Society of Ireland. I don't think they have issued a statement as an overall body.

The BPS = British Psychological Society.

Personally, I work by individual formulation rather than diagnosis, not being a medical or biomedical model type professional.

Cheers. I think they have, the document I was hand was a final daft of a position statement by them. The document gives that impression inanyway.

I was not familiar with the name thanks

Victor

silentrust wrote: »

Ironically it's also apparently quite common amongst Doctors esp. Psychologists - though if you read the article I did the other day where psychotherapists were wondering if it was OK to be moved to tears when hearing of their clients' experiences, you begin to see the merits!

I think one needs to strike a balance there. It is a matter of proportionality. I think my psychotherapist did cry briefly when my niece died, but was otherwise in control.

Psychotherapists are human, but they also need to have the wherewithal when a client is emotional to be able to give them support. Additionally, client's need to be able to see that a situation need not control them. So psychotherapists that can't get what a client is feeling or one that blubbers any time a client mentions something sad are going to be less useful in most circumstances and to most people than ones in between.

dar100 wrote: »

We all have an innate baseline level of empathy, in psychopaths this seems to be extremely low or non-existent. Having a low level can be helpful, particularly for therapists as they wont burn out as much as their counterparts with high levels of innate empathy

Sure, dealing with burn out is important, but if a therapist is to explore a subject with a client, surely it is at least useful for them to understand what the client is going through?

Can you imagine a client in my situation (niece dying) and the therapist being so completely unmoved that he conversation goes as follows?

Client: Hello.
Therapist: Good morning.
Client: I've had some very bad news. [Stops]
Therapist: Go ahead.
Client: My niece died yesterday.
Therapist: Yeah, and?

That's not going to be of any use to a client.

silentrust wrote: »

I imagine someone like a heart surgeon about to perform a coronary bypass on you - would you want them to break down into tears and refuse to stick a sharp blade into your body as you're another human being? A psychopath would be ideal in this kind of situation, eyes won't be blurred by weeping. :-D

I'm getting poor reading from my sarcasm meter.

I'm not so sure. As a patient, would you want the surgeon to wander off mid-surgery to have breakfast or make sure he programmed the Sky box properly?

dar100

Victor wrote: »

I think one needs to strike a balance there. It is a matter of proportionality. I think my psychotherapist did cry briefly when my niece died, but was otherwise in control.



Sure, dealing with burn out is important, but if a therapist is to explore a subject with a client, surely it is at least useful for them to understand what the client is going through?

Can you imagine a client in my situation (niece dying) and the therapist being so completely unmoved that he conversation goes as follows?

Client: Hello.
Therapist: Good morning.
Client: I've had some very bad news. [Stops]
Therapist: Go ahead.
Client: My niece died yesterday.
Therapist: Yeah, and?

Of course empathy is important, my original point was made in relation to high levels of innate empathy, therapists with a lower level will not be impacted upon as much. There is also the idea of professional empathy, getting the client to really bring you into their world to see things from their perspective, once the therapist has some form of empathic connection this can occur. Higher levels of empathy result in more vicarious trauma for the counsellor. Your above case study shows no level of understanding whatsoever and is not what I was referring to.

silentrust

Victor wrote: »

I'm getting poor reading from my sarcasm meter.

I'm not so sure. As a patient, would you want the surgeon to wander off mid-surgery to have breakfast or make sure he programmed the Sky box properly?

I think it's important to remember what the surgeon stands to gain by not wandering off i.e status, adulation, regular wage packet not to mention the negative consequences of doing a bad job e.g dismissal, being sued for malpractice, societal disapproval - there are plenty of self gratifying reasons to save the person's life without being moved to tears at their unfortunate plight. :-D

Victor

On the flip side, I imagine that many people can set aside their fear of harming someone in knowing that the surgery will help them.

Many people who would be afraid of doing surgery, are so because they fear the 'blood and guts' or that they would do a bad job, although I suppose that possibly wouldn't apply to those with low empathy.

UCPRegard

Hi Guy's,

Just joining the discussion. Read [Zero Degrees of Empathy]http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jun/03/zero-degrees-empathy-baron-cohen[/URL] which states that we can regulate our empathic responses according to our context. So uber empathic as the therapist with the client, and not so much with the passenger sitting beside you on the bus who you want to ignore. But the empathic ability is there and can be regulated. Increased, decreased according to context and also practised and developed. Contextual empathy. I'd imagine we'd only exhaust/traumatise/burnout ourselves with always on empathy.

When cruelty exists is when the empathic ability is missing. At least, that's the theory. Great book.

MickFleetwood

Do I know any sociopaths? I reckon I know a few. I suspect some are, anyway, as many people I know show psychopathic tendencies constantly.

I personally have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a disorder which quite a few people like to lump in with Antisocial Personality Disorder.

silentrust

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Do I know any sociopaths? I reckon I know a few. I suspect some are, anyway, as many people I know show psychopathic tendencies constantly.

I personally have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a disorder which quite a few people like to lump in with Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Would a Narcissist admit to being one? :-)

MickFleetwood

silentrust wrote: »

Would a Narcissist admit to being one? :-)

Not to people I know obviously. On an anonymous message board, why not?

silentrust

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Not to people I know obviously. On an anonymous message board, why not?

Why not indeed? As I understand it Narcissists are often mistaken for Sociopaths but you do experience the full emotional spectrum and feel deeply unlike people with ASPD. I would love to read more on this, perhaps some of our giants can recommend some more literature?

dar100

This article may provide some useful information in your exploration of both these PD, although the research was carried out on subjects involved in the criminal justice system.

silentrust

dar100 wrote: »

This article may provide some useful information in your exploration of both these PD, although the research was carried out on subjects involved in the criminal justice system.

Most interesting, thank you!

silentrust

The biggest dilemma I have is deciding if I really am a Sociopath or just an A-Hole.

Sorry I can't frame it in more technical terms.

MaxWig

silentrust wrote: »

The biggest dilemma I have is deciding if I really am a Sociopath or just an A-Hole.

Sorry I can't frame it in more technical terms.

Not sure there's a difference to be honest.

But its an interesting point.

As research on psychopathy/sociopathy develops a more sophisticated understanding of the causes and effects, there will be a headache for the criminal justice system.

Already I've noticed a couple of newspaper articles that refer to judges making decisions based on Brain Scans.

silentrust

MaxWig wrote: »

Not sure there's a difference to be honest.

But its an interesting point.

As research on psychopathy/sociopathy develops a more sophisticated understanding of the causes and effects, there will be a headache for the criminal justice system.

Already I've noticed a couple of newspaper articles that refer to judges making decisions based on Brain Scans.

My own father has kindly suggested I am probably both so agrees with you Maxwig. :-)

Yes, the book I mentioned earlier raises the question as to whether this point will be raised in criminal trials. Just as we wouldn't hold a paranoid schizophrenic fully accountable for their actions, does a brain which exaggerates your sense of self worth and diminishes your empathy for others absolve you of some criminal liability - stay tuned.

dar100

silentrust wrote: »

My own father has kindly suggested I am probably both so agrees with you Maxwig. :-)

Yes, the book I mentioned earlier raises the question as to whether this point will be raised in criminal trials. Just as we wouldn't hold a paranoid schizophrenic fully accountable for their actions, does a brain which exaggerates your sense of self worth and diminishes your empathy for others absolve you of some criminal liability - stay tuned.

I would have to say no to your above point, psychopathy does not involve the subject been out of touch with reality, they are very much aware that their actions are counter to societal norms. They know right from wrong, although they may not have a conventional moral code so to speak.

silentrust

dar100 wrote: »

I would have to say no to your above point, psychopathy does not involve the subject been out of touch with reality, they are very much aware that their actions are counter to societal norms. They know right from wrong, although they may not have a conventional moral code so to speak.

Yes, it's very hard to divine. Our prisons aren't crammed end to end with Sociopaths but then neither are they especially moral upright people. I can tell you I would be absolutely devastated to end up in a jail cell so try to stay out of the reach of the long arm of the law, but then don't we all?

It's something my Russian friend Lana and I talked about often over on Facebook - how much of the things we do are influenced by our own moral code and not fear of retribution? Do we fail to snatch an old lady's handbag because it might be particularly distressing for someone of her age or do we shy away from it because we know that 6 months in the slammer isn't worth 20 Euro?

dar100

I know I read some research that suggests up to 60 per cent of the prison population fall into the psychopath category, I'm unsure though as to where I came across this material. Yes it is a good debate, one which has many avenues to be explored.

MaxWig

dar100 wrote: »

I know I read some research that suggests up to 60 per cent of the prison population fall into the psychopath category, I'm unsure though as to where I came across this material. Yes it is a good debate, one which has many avenues to be explored.

And considering the small catchment area that the prison population tend to come from, it raises serious questions about the category itself.

It would follow that there are far more psychopaths in areas in a lower socioeconomic bracket.

I remember reading a longitudinal study that sought to determine whether the low socioeconomic bracket increased the likelihood of psychopathy, or whether psychopathy increased one's risk of falling into a lower socioeconomic bracket.

silentrust

MaxWig wrote: »

And considering the small catchment area that the prison population tend to come from, it raises serious questions about the category itself.

It would follow that there are far more psychopaths in areas in a lower socioeconomic bracket.

I remember reading a longitudinal study that sought to determine whether the low socioeconomic bracket increased the likelihood of psychopathy, or whether psychopathy increased one's risk of falling into a lower socioeconomic bracket.

Stout certainly seems to believe they're very good at getting into the top tiers of society, although it's not usually due to any personal worth but a long stream of lies and manipulation.

For instance one of the case studies is a woman who managed to get a Bsc in Psychology but is actually passing herself off as a full blown Psychiatrist through charming the admin staff to overlook any inconsistencies in her paperwork.

However she also mentions a very sad male Sociopath who made a habit of breaking into Post Offices to steal stamps. He ticked all the boxes for Sociopathy but his crimes were committed in a very obvious way.

I know (from personal experience!) we are extremely good at disappearing when the heat is on, so that might also skew jail numbers.

But you're right, probably more of them proportionately in prison than out here.

dar100

MaxWig wrote: »

And considering the small catchment area that the prison population tend to come from, it raises serious questions about the category itself.

It would follow that there are far more psychopaths in areas in a lower socioeconomic bracket.

I remember reading a longitudinal study that sought to determine whether the low socioeconomic bracket increased the likelihood of psychopathy, or whether psychopathy increased one's risk of falling into a lower socioeconomic bracket.

Yes interesting stuff MaxWig, although IMO, individuals from lower socioeconomic areas are at a higher risk of offending for a number of reasons. So research on these subjects who end up in prison will be easier to come by as opposed to the individuals Hare talks about in his book.

I don't think there are more psychopaths in lower socioeconomic areas, just that they have fewer opportunities than their counterparts who use their traits in a different manner i.e geared towards a business model as opposed to criminality

MaxWig

dar100 wrote: »

Yes interesting stuff MaxWig, although IMO, individuals from lower socioeconomic areas are at a higher risk of offending for a number of reasons. So research on these subjects who end up in prison will be easier to come by as opposed to the individuals Hare talks about in his book.

I don't think there are more psychopaths in lower socioeconomic areas, just that they have fewer opportunities than their counterparts who use their traits in a different manner i.e geared towards a business model as opposed to criminality

I think this was one area where the distinction between ASPD and psychopathy was used. Vague as that may be.