Poor quality of Irish economic journalism

Cody Pomeray

Does anyone else find the quality of reporting in the Irish media to be extremely lacking, often littered with factual errors and ambiguities, and sometimes very misleading?

Maybe this thread might be used for people to highlight their own examples of really shoddy economic reporting.

Mine is from today's Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-seven-people-on-the-dole-has-never-worked-a-single-day-29278033.html

The journalist clearly doesn't understand, or else doesn't care about the difference between jobseeker's allowance and jobseeker's benefit, he uses the term 'jobseekers benefit' to refer to all unemployment payments.

Next, he gathers the total number of (presumably JA) welfare recipients the live register who "have never worked" and makes them a fraction of the QNHS figures to determine the non-participation rate:eek: These are two completely sets of data, not to be mixed up with one another. Pretty basic mistake.

All he had to do was count the JA recipients on the live register who have never worked and divide them by the total number of JA recipients on the live register (JB should be left out of it, those people have contributed PRSI), he should then have broken it down by age group to take account of those who are likely to be recent graduates/ school leavers.

He then says that these people, who have never worked, are all entitled to the full rate. Again, the dogs in the street know that people under the age of 25 on Jobseekers' Allowance (of whom there are about 63,000!) would only be entitled to between €100 - €144. I imagine this age group makes up a lot of the population who have never been able to work.

I know that Daniel McConnell, the journalist in this case, isn't considered an economic heavyweight, but how does this stuff get past an editor?

I hope this doesn't become a debate about unemployment, because there is another serious issue here, and that is the really poor quality of economic journalism that exists in this country.

Has anyone else felt this way about the 'serious' media outlets. Any personal favourite clangers of your own?

Scofflaw

Poor economic journalism, poor political journalism, poor scientific journalism. Repeated failures to distinguish, for example, between the EU and the ECHR, an inability to handle statistical significance, cherry-picking of facts, completely uncritical repetition of unsourced factoids, you name it, they're all there.

There are relatively few articles on complex topics in Irish journalism - and not just Irish journalism - which bear proper analysis without showing gaping holes in the author's comprehension and/or fact-checking abilities.

Having said that, complex topics are, well, complex. Economic issues can be particularly inscrutable, because unlike the sciences, there isn't always a clear line between a political opinion and an economic theory. But there's no such excuse for the failure you highlight.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maninasia

What about this lovely piece from the Indo. Because the source was the World Bank they didn't deem it necessary to check how they actually put these figures together. Or perhaps that was beyond their intellectual capacity to understand.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nigerians-send-nearly-500m-a-year-home-from-ireland-29278045.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84697764

AlmightyCushion

How many newspapers/news sites picked up that story about Ireland paying 42% of the whole cost of bailing out EU banks? Says it all really. Same with all the news stories about how Ireland is swimming in oil but the government decided to give it all away to some oil companies for a few grand in brown envelopes.

I think the problem is not that a lot of people take everything they read at face value and to be 100% accurate (as long as it's not completely ridiculous), they're far too trusting. Because of this journalistic quality doesn't need to be that high, they don't need to all that accurate because few will pick up on it and question them on it. I don't think this is an Irish problem or even one related to just economics, some of the technology stories I've read on technology sites (siliconrepublic I'm looking at you) have been laughably poor.

Scofflaw

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How many newspapers/news sites picked up that story about Ireland paying 42% of the whole cost of bailing out EU banks? Says it all really.

Exactly - repetition of a dramatic statistic without bothering to check how the statistic came about, who put it out, and what agenda they might have.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Same with all the news stories about how Ireland is swimming in oil but the government decided to give it all away to some oil companies for a few grand in brown envelopes.

Not only that, but that despite that complete giveaway the oil companies still pretend there's no oil there in order to...something or other. Trick people, perhaps, just to laugh at them.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I think the problem is not that a lot of people take everything they read at face value and to be 100% accurate (as long as it's not completely ridiculous), they're far too trusting. Because of this journalistic quality doesn't need to be that high, they don't need to all that accurate because few will pick up on it and question them on it. I don't think this is an Irish problem or even one related to just economics, some of the technology stories I've read on technology sites (siliconrepublic I'm looking at you) have been laughably poor.

Argh, I'd forgotten about technology journalism.

grinding my teeth,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

maninasia wrote: »

What about this lovely piece from the Indo. Because the source was the World Bank they didn't deem it necessary to check how they actually put these figures together. Or perhaps that was beyond their intellectual capacity to understand.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nigerians-send-nearly-500m-a-year-home-from-ireland-29278045.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84697764

Yes, that's a classic - as was an earlier story about how much asylum seekers make. I thought there was going to be something odd in the figures.

If I'm right about what sock puppet says there, those figures are estimated using a very simplistic model - take the total remitted home by Nigerians abroad, weight the number of Nigerians living abroad by the GNI per capita of the state they're resident in, and divide the former by the latter to give figures per Nigerian according to the GNI of the country they're living in.

Using such a model tells you nothing about whether Nigerians in Ireland are remitting anything unusual home - it tells you only about the model's assumptions. In fact, it turns out, unsurprisingly, that the amount per capita the Nigerians send home is almost identical to Irish GNI/capita. Diving the product by one of two multipliers yields the other multiplier - who knew?

Of course, once I've figured that out, I no longer have an article to sell...hmm.

cordially,
Scofflaw

professore

Hard facts don't sell newspapers. Inaccurately interpreted statistics and reports do.

charlemont

Our media can barely give an accurate road number on traffic related articles..

I see the Gardaí were looking for anyone with information about a recent death to come forward, All papers covered this but they done it the Irish way, Not one single picture of the man which may have jogged someone's memory !!!

Court reporting is atrocious here too, Full of mistakes and omissions.

Most of these journalists would never last in the same job outside of Ireland.

Scofflaw

Actually, that thread illustrates an equally if not more disturbing trend - people are happily saying that this issue "will be brought up in the Dáil", and I don't see any reason to think that's not possible or even likely.

Seeing the holes in this kind of stuff isn't my day job - but it is supposed to the day job of both the media and our TDs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Corkbah

charlemont wrote: »

Our media can barely give an accurate road number on traffic related articles..

I see the Gardaí were looking for anyone with information about a recent death to come forward, All papers covered this but they done it the Irish way, Not one single picture of the man which may have jogged someone's memory !!!

Court reporting is atrocious here too, Full of mistakes and omissions.

Most of these journalists would never last in the same job outside of Ireland.

got any examples of that in national newspapers ?? - most of the court reporters I know report the facts of what was actually said in court - not what plaintiffs claim.

KyussBishop

In fairness, it's hard to find good economic writing from any mainstream journalistic outlet, because the vast majority of economic writing on macroeconomic issues, is based on theory that is just flat-out wrong.

Take the fuss over that austerity study recently, how it was used to promote austerity, yet is extremely flawed; economics as a field of study itself, is in a miserable pseudo-scientific state, and the small number of voices trying to bring the field back to reality (to actually start trying to make theory fit evidence again), are marginalized and gaining ground only very slowly.

RichardAnd

It seems to me that journalism here, and elsewhere I might add, is not at all a matter of ensuring that the truth reaches the masses. Rather, I would claim that economic journalism at least, is intended to rile up the plebs, sowing the seeds of disunity at the behest of those who pull the strings.

It's ironic really, in an age where, in theory, all human knowledge is available at the click of a mouse, people are so easily led astray. Humans eh, what a strange breed they are.

notharrypotter

Most people accept by and large what is put forward by reputable journalists simply because they have no detailed knowledge of that area.

Its only when it impinges on an area that they have knowledge of that they question the lack of detailed knowledge of the journalist.

Actually, that thread illustrates an equally if not more disturbing trend - people are happily saying that this issue "will be brought up in the Dáil", and I don't see any reason to think that's not possible or even likely.

In my opinion many members of Lenister House lack the required knowledge to examine anything in any great detail.

carpejugulum

You can cross 'Irish economic' out of the title.

Ironically, it's a supply/demand issue.

ardmacha

Journalism, like politics, in Ireland is a profession with little self respect. No journalist sees any loss of self respect in producing a biased article with inaccurate information and no newspaper sees any market advantage in properly researched articles.

Chips Lovell

I think the problem is twofold. Media organisations are squeezed and reporters are expected to produce more in less time. Standards are starting to slip.

Secondly, there's been a bit of an uptick in agenda driven journalism, where stories that suit a certain viewpoint are pushed out by editors without too much care for inconvenient facts.

ardmacha wrote: »

no newspaper sees any market advantage in properly researched articles.

The cynic in me thinks that's because there isn't any market advantage in running quality stuff. Look at what some of the best selling papers are. There's a lot of people out there who just want to be told what they want to hear.

maninasia

Many articles are simply assembled quotes from press releases.
That's not journalism, that's marketing.

RichardAnd

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

There's a lot of people out there who just want to be told what they want to hear.

I'd agree with this as I believe that it appeals to a very human need, the need for stability. The reason religion has appealed to people (and still does appeal, I might add) is because it offers that comfort that there is something higher that is looking out for you in a very hostile world. The alternative is to believe that there is nothing "up there" and that humans are at the mercy of nature or, all too often, other humans.

In a way, the modern media is like a religion. Many people simply accept what they are told by "reputable" sources and, like the zealous catholic, they behave in an extremely aggressive manner towards anyone who questions the convenient truth.

Cody Pomeray

ardmacha wrote: »

Journalism, like politics, in Ireland is a profession with little self respect. No journalist sees any loss of self respect in producing a biased article with inaccurate information and no newspaper sees any market advantage in properly researched articles.

I completely disagree.

Ireland consistently produces some really quality journalism of an international calibre which would be appropriate to the BBC or one of the international broadsheets - I'm talking about journalists like Mary FitzGerald, Lara Marlowe, Paul Cunningham, David McCullagh (in fact, most of the political correspondents when reporting on politics) and Philip Boucher Hayes - the Irish media is punching well above its weight in most areas. In fact, we even do well in business and companies journalism,with the likes of Tom Lyons, who sometimes ventures into macro policy. However, when it comes to reporting on economics in general, there is a disturbing willingness to manipulate and misrepresent data. Dan O'Brien is a stark example of this, the guy misrepresents - or outright ignores - economic data as he sees fit.

I understand what some have said about the hybrid-Scientific nature of economics, but that doesn't explain a disproportionate tendency toward impartial or misleading reporting in itself.

The only media outlet that is something of an exception to the rule is probably the Sunday Business Post, and some really great journalists like Ian Kehoe (formerly with SBP), but these are few and far between and it's really a worrying situation for a country facing serious economic challenges.

The Corinthian

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The cynic in me thinks that's because there isn't any market advantage in running quality stuff. Look at what some of the best selling papers are. There's a lot of people out there who just want to be told what they want to hear.

There's unfortunately more than a grain of truth in this; best exemplified by the British press. Think of who reads papers such as the Daily Mail, or Guardian or Telegraph and you will quickly note very specific socio-political demographic groups. People who hold specific World views tend to buy papers that reinforce rather than challenge those views.

You get such agendas throughout publications, down to the letters page. One former letters editor of an Irish newspaper admitted to me that they would actively pick, for example, two well written letters on one side of a debate and then a letter from some crazy from the other, based upon what side was supported by editorial policy.

Plus opinion pieces are a lot quicker to knock out.

And don't get me started on the topic of media economists.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Ireland consistently produces some really quality journalism of an international calibre which would be appropriate to the BBC or one of the international broadsheets - I'm talking about journalists like Mary FitzGerald, Lara Marlowe, Paul Cunningham, David McCullagh (in fact, most of the political correspondents when reporting on politics) and Philip Boucher Hayes - the Irish media is punching well above its weight in most areas.

LOL. Would this be the same Philip Boucher-Hayes who is head of RTÉ's Radio Investigative Unit, swallowed Pamela Izevbekhai's asylum scam faster than a $20 blow-job, and then managed to keep his job given he'd proven his competence as an investigative reporter?

Cody Pomeray

The Corinthian wrote: »

LOL. Would this be the same Philip Boucher-Hayes who is head of RTÉ's Radio Investigative Unit, swallowed Pamela Izevbekhai's asylum scam faster than a $20 blow-job, and then managed to keep his job given he'd proven his competence as an investigative reporter?

did you really 'LOL"? Your reference doesn't have a significantly humourous payoff.

The Corinthian

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

did you really 'LOL"? Your reference doesn't have a significantly humourous payoff.

His inclusion as an example of "quality journalism of an international calibre" is actually quite a rib-tickler.

Scofflaw

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I completely disagree.

Ireland consistently produces some really quality journalism of an international calibre which would be appropriate to the BBC or one of the international broadsheets - I'm talking about journalists like Mary FitzGerald, Lara Marlowe, Paul Cunningham, David McCullagh (in fact, most of the political correspondents when reporting on politics) and Philip Boucher Hayes - the Irish media is punching well above its weight in most areas. In fact, we even do well in business and companies journalism,with the likes of Tom Lyons, who sometimes ventures into macro policy. However, when it comes to reporting on economics in general, there is a disturbing willingness to manipulate and misrepresent data. Dan O'Brien is a stark example of this, the guy misrepresents - or outright ignores - economic data as he sees fit.

I understand what some have said about the hybrid-Scientific nature of economics, but that doesn't explain a disproportionate tendency toward impartial or misleading reporting in itself.

The only media outlet that is something of an exception to the rule is probably the Sunday Business Post, and some really great journalists like Ian Kehoe (formerly with SBP), but these are few and far between and it's really a worrying situation for a country facing serious economic challenges.

There are obviously differences of opinion on the value of economic journalists. I would agree with you in respect of Dan O'Brien, who I have seen commit fairly basic factual errors, but he gets a glowing write-up from Michael Hennigan of Finfacts, who I would generally consider a good source:

"Dan O'Brien, economics editor, does a good job in revealing home truths"

cordially,
Scofflaw

Cody Pomeray

It's funny because i usually agree with the end points Dan O'Brien is making, it's just that he is prone to factual slippage and logical leaps in getting to that end point.

I'm not some economics guru and even I can spot his mistakes, I'm just wondering why this is allowed to happen.

If such errors were happening with a foreign correspondent, for example, there would be substantial and rigorous criticism.In economics, I think we just accept it as a hazard of reading economics articles.

Scofflaw

Well, they're at it again - this time in relation to the current fuss about corporate taxes, Apple, Google, etc. I'm going to quote antoobrien in response to another poster:

antoobrien wrote:

We find out that Apple have a "special tax agreement" with Ireland that means they only pay 2% corporate tax, while we have spent the past few years pretending to the world we have a 12.5% tax rate.

If the apple accounts are published that will likely be proved wrong. They all pay 12.5% on the profit booked here, something the US senators studiously ignored. It's how the profit is reduced by transfer pricing, something that has to be agreed with the SEC up front (google's arrangement was registered in 2003) that they should be focusing.

And Tim Cook told them to change their taxation scheme if they want to get "their" cash "home".

Edit: I wrote a piece about this in a different thread before, which has a link to the 2009 google financial accounts.

They made a profit of €47,415,556, piad CT of €5,926,945. That works out at 12.5%. They also paid other taxes of approx €12m.

The problem is that some idiot read the revenue figure 7.868bn without looking at the cost of sales 2.355bn or the administrative costs of 5.46bn to decide that google paid (incl transfer pricing agreement) to come up with an overall figure of 0.14% tax paid.

Yes, Ireland's whizkid journalists have calculated the rate of tax Google pay on their profits by dividing tax paid by turnover. This is either unbelievably ignorant or deliberately misleading for the sake of either drama or agenda.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maryishere

A lot of journalists are a bit left wing and unable to call a spade a spade. During the recent busworkers strike for example, only one journalist had the balls to point out that Irish bus drivers are the fourth best paid bus drivers in the world....and have a relatively high absenteeism rate.

creedp

maryishere wrote: »

A lot of journalists are a bit left wing and unable to call a spade a spade. During the recent busworkers strike for example, only one journalist had the balls to point out that Irish bus drivers are the fourth best paid bus drivers in the world....and have a relatively high absenteeism rate.

Are you really saying that it took balls for a jounalist to point out that semi-state workers are relatively well paid and [shudder] have a relatively high absenteeism rate? Witness protection beckons I'd reckon

K-9

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I think the problem is twofold. Media organisations are squeezed and reporters are expected to produce more in less time. Standards are starting to slip.

Secondly, there's been a bit of an uptick in agenda driven journalism, where stories that suit a certain viewpoint are pushed out by editors without too much care for inconvenient facts.



The cynic in me thinks that's because there isn't any market advantage in running quality stuff. Look at what some of the best selling papers are. There's a lot of people out there who just want to be told what they want to hear.

The focus has become more on opinion piece type journalism which usually means using statistics in a biased way, or more worryingly, bad statistics in a rabble rousing way. All this while less is spent on investigative journalism and more and more papers are outsourcing journalists.

ardmacha

A lot of journalists are a bit left wing and unable to call a spade a spade. During the recent busworkers strike for example, only one journalist had the balls to point out that Irish bus drivers are the fourth best paid bus drivers in the world....and have a relatively high absenteeism rate.

Did they use the OECD bus driver pay index, adjusted for PPP, or did they prefer the World Bank Transport Operative index?

maninasia

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, they're at it again - this time in relation to the current fuss about corporate taxes, Apple, Google, etc. I'm going to quote antoobrien in response to another poster:



Yes, Ireland's whizkid journalists have calculated the rate of tax Google pay on their profits by dividing tax paid by turnover. This is either unbelievably ignorant or deliberately misleading for the sake of either drama or agenda.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Actually, isn't it something like both sides are wrong.

Google gets away with the small profit charade and therefore pays a small amount of tax by pumping up the 'Cost of Sales' and 'Cost of Admin' , meanwhile the journalist took the entire wodge of revenue without looking at what perhaps could be the normal cost of sales or admin for such a company, without this transfer pricing/IP licensing shennanigans thrown in and therefore what the true profit is and therefore the true tax rate paid was.

I mean I would like to report my income as lower for the tax authorities by paying my wife for her services but they just don't give me that type of deal. Can I throw in 'Cost of Housekeeping' and 'Cost of Maintaining Domestic Bliss' and get a deal on my much reduced income/profit...pleasssee?

Chips Lovell

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, Ireland's whizkid journalists have calculated the rate of tax Google pay on their profits by dividing tax paid by turnover. This is either unbelievably ignorant or deliberately misleading for the sake of either drama or agenda.

A lot of journalists don't understand company accounts or taxation. It's actually one of the few areas that training is available on, but I know that many of them don't take it up.