Council given powers to check waste bill door-to-door

enda1

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dubliners-will-have-to-prove-how-they-dispose-of-waste-1.1393650


Dublin City Council have enacted bylaws for themselves to allow for inspectors to demand proof of waste contracts door-to-door.

The apparent reason is to curb private waste disposal and only allow waste disposal to be performed by sanctioned companies.

I don't really have a major issue with the attempt to curb illegal dumping of waste as it appears to be a large problem, however I find the steps a swing too far in reaction.

Seems a rather draconian act and one eroding civil liberties. The civil liberties I refer to are two-fold:
The right to peace and quiet in your private property;
The right to not have to jump through hoops to prove innocence


What do you all think?

Kristopherus

Here comes another level of Nanny State:mad:

Andre Salmon

Im all for it. I presume they will just target the problem areas.
My office is on Amiens street and Im at the back looking out on to Killarney st.
Every morning there is a massive pile of rubbish dumped there.
To be fair its cleaned up by dcc quickly

AlekSmart

enda1 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dubliners-will-have-to-prove-how-they-dispose-of-waste-1.1393650

Dublin City Council have enacted bylaws for themselves to allow for inspectors to demand proof of waste contracts door-to-door.

The apparent reason is to curb private waste disposal and only allow waste disposal to be performed by sanctioned companies.

I don't really have a major issue with the attempt to curb illegal dumping of waste as it appears to be a large problem, however I find the steps a swing too far in reaction.

Seems a rather draconian act and one eroding civil liberties. The civil liberties I refer to are two-fold:
The right to peace and quiet in your private property;
The right to not have to jump through hoops to prove innocence

What do you all think?

I don't see anything Draconian about it at all.

The Council are in a totally invidious position,being damned if they do and equally vilified if they don't.

It should be noted that this is a Bye-Law and as such fully compliant with the laws of the land.

However,ask yourself if the individuals responsible for the situation will be concened in the slightest about a Hi-Vizzed Inspector knocking on their door ?

My belief is that such a personage will be greeted with shrugged shoulder's,a blank stare and a "No speak English" sign.

We have already seen an effective piece of anti-aggressive begging leglislation struck down by the High Court on the grounds that those whom it was directed at needed to fully understand the wording and implications of the Law.

Therefore DCC are not alone wasting their time and resources,but potentially may leave themselves open to the attentions of the same Legal Representatives who so assidiously guarded the rights of,mainly foreign,beggars to hustle at will.

I remain sceptical that the defence of not having a working knowledge of a host countries language will get one very far in other developed countries....perhaps other posters have experiences in this matter ?

In the meantime enda1,consider whether the civil liberties of thiose who have mounds of stinking rotting refuse piled up outside their residences are being threatened and who'se responsible for this threat ?

Chips Lovell

Having someone knock on your door is draconian and a violation of civil liberties?

heinz hummer

if they knock on my door i'll be throwin THEM in me wheelie bin

enda1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Having someone knock on your door is draconian and a violation of civil liberties?

Well yes. Its a bit Tax Collector-like. I've a similar issue with TV license inspectors.

The cops don't come along and force you to show that all your income is legitimate, that you've receipts for all purchases etc. etc. Why employ an army of rubbish enforcers?

Chips Lovell

enda1 wrote: »

The cops don't come along and force you to show that all your income is legitimate, that you've receipts for all purchases etc. etc. Why employ an army of rubbish enforcers?

Actually, they can. Criminal Assets Bureau.

Not to mention that Revenue can do an audit on you too.

heinz hummer

its just a rubbish idea

hyperborean

If you dispose of your waste in a correct manner why worry about proving it?

scalpeen

I am lucky I can dispose of my refuse legitimally and ethically near to where I live. Why should I have to pay for a service I don't use? Indeed why am I paying all these property taxes?? Its about time we stood up to all this nonsense.

tayto lover

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don't see anything Draconian about it at all.

The Council are in a totally invidious position,being damned if they do and equally vilified if they don't.

It should be noted that this is a Bye-Law and as such fully compliant with the laws of the land.

However,ask yourself if the individuals responsible for the situation will be concened in the slightest about a Hi-Vizzed Inspector knocking on their door ?

My belief is that such a personage will be greeted with shrugged shoulder's,a blank stare and a "No speak English" sign.

We have already seen an effective piece of anti-aggressive begging leglislation struck down by the High Court on the grounds that those whom it was directed at needed to fully understand the wording and implications of the Law.

Therefore DCC are not alone wasting their time and resources,but potentially may leave themselves open to the attentions of the same Legal Representatives who so assidiously guarded the rights of,mainly foreign,beggars to hustle at will.

I remain sceptical that the defence of not having a working knowledge of a host countries language will get one very far in other developed countries....perhaps other posters have experiences in this matter ?

In the meantime enda1,consider whether the civil liberties of thiose who have mounds of stinking rotting refuse piled up outside their residences are being threatened and who'se responsible for this threat ?

So are you assuming that all the people who do not use waste disposal companies dump their rubbish?
I know several who burn their rubbish in their pot-bellied stove and put the waste food in their compost bin. Should they have to explain their actions? I hardly think so.

Chips Lovell

Burning your rubbish is illegal.

mitosis

I'm all for it. You should see the amount of black sacks dumped most nights behind my local bottle bank. The stuff thrown in the river. Everyone should pay a refuse collection fee, whether they put anything out or not, to discourage illegal dumping. Of course there was a time when everyone paid and the council collected, but now in a privatised system most people pay twice and the rest dump at the battle bank.

Get Real

tayto lover wrote: »

So are you assuming that all the people who do not use waste disposal companies dump their rubbish?
I know several who burn their rubbish in their pot-bellied stove and put the waste food in their compost bin. Should they have to explain their actions? I hardly think so.

As said above, that is illegal whether that be to burn rubbish in a conventional fireplace, outside in a barrell, in a purpose built incinerator, or even in a purpose built building with a chimney/flue attached:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/waste_management_and_recycling/burning_household_waste.html

However I'm on the fence on this one. While I agree its a good idea to enforce the responsible management of waste and curb illegal dumping, is it right to call on doors and presuming people are guilty, putting the onus on citizens to prove their innocence?

This is completely contrary to the notion of innocent until proven guilty

. And the difference between this and the CAB is the CAB gathers evidence or at least a decent lead/ has reason to pursue a certain individual. They don't call round out of the blue to people door to door.

Will this be different?

OPTION A) Will it be a case of " we're accusing you of this without any basis, so its up to you to prove to us that we're wrong" ?

Or,

OPTION B it could be a case of (which i agree with) selectively calling into people who have been caught dumping/convicted of dumping/reported by a neighbour etc of dumping.

I have a compost bin out the back, between that and plastic, cardboard,glass,tins,cans etc, there's actually very little inorganic/unrecyclable waste left that needs to be put in a bin.

So depending on which approach they take A or B, I'm not sure what opinion can be formed.

Manach

It seems yet more creeping State shift into an inquisitorial model of governance where the burdens of proof are being shifted to show that the individual is not guilty of the act instead of having the State to prove it. At least the tax funds from Central government are at least being spent proving more employment to the State sector than wasted away on irrelevant like actually providing a service.

AlekSmart

Get Real wrote: »

.

However I'm on the fence on this one. While I agree its a good idea to enforce the responsible management of waste and curb illegal dumping, is it right to call on doors and presuming people are guilty, putting the onus on citizens to prove their innocence?

This is completely contrary to the notion of innocent until proven guilty

And the difference between this and the CAB is the CAB gathers evidence or at least a decent lead/ has reason to pursue a certain individual. They don't call round out of the blue to people door to door.

Will this be different?

So depending on which approach they take A or B, I'm not sure what opinion can be formed.

I'm not certain that all of the respondents to the OP are familiar with the specifics of this story.

Currently,it is a Dublin City Council specific problem,although other LA's are taking an active interest in how it is developing.

Get Real asks if the proposed action will be "different" to a blanket trawl which appears to send many into a frenzy of purple haze.

The situation on the ground has been monitored over a protracted period and it's fair to say that DCC's Environmental Services Dept is in possession of specific information regarding those who have been systematically abusing their neighbours and other users of the City's infrastructure.

However,the Council,in this instance,has to be VERY delicate about how it handles the situation,as if it puts as much as a fáda in the wrong place it will feel the wrath of those who see themselves,in social terms, as protectors of the underdog.

The situation is so very Irish,in that the identities of the main offenders are very likely known to the Council,and other agencies such as The Dept of the Environment and the Gardai.

However,in the current climate,to take action against these people could,and most likely would,be portrayed as an uncaring,malevolent State oppressing the poorest of the poor etc etc.

The issue here is finding an "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem" which will stick....not,by any means,an easy task !

LeinsterDub

With tax the assumption of guilt has always come before innocence. You have always had to prove you're innocent. The revenue could demand back taxes from you and it's up to you to prove you don't owe it.

djpbarry

Manach wrote: »

At least the tax funds from Central government are at least being spent proving more employment to the State sector than wasted away on irrelevant like actually providing a service.

Let's just overlook the funds that are currently being wasted cleaning up after these dirty ****ers dumping their rubbish in the streets.

hatrickpatrick

hyperborean wrote: »

If you dispose of your waste in a correct manner why worry about proving it?

Because it should be up to them to offer some proof that I'm doing something wrong, not the other way around. Same applies to pretty much anything. The burden of proof should never be on the suspect unless and until there's direct evidence for them to have to refute.

Chips Lovell

So no more tax audits? Or television licence inspectors?

goose2005

Would be far better to do the same with farmers, I have a relative who burns everything, even plastic sacks. One of the prerequisite for grants etc. should be that you have a receipt for how you dispose of farm waste.

enda1

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So no more tax audits? Or television licence inspectors?

Definitely no more television license inspectors. To begin with, it's a nonsense tax and it only focuses on the middle class. If it is to exist, and I don't think it should, it should come as a duty on electricity for example or as some other unavoidable payment method.

Revenue is a bit more complex as it is related to the running of the country at the basic level. Revenue are quite clear that they target suspect cases for audit rather than random, though they do say there are a small number of random cases per year. It's not something I'm wholly comfortable with either to be frank.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Burning your rubbish is illegal.

I must rush around all my neighbours and tell them that and also that they have to pay a rubbish tax that they can't afford instead.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

I must rush around all my neighbours and tell them that...

Please do. There are very good reasons why burning your own rubbish is not the done thing in modern society.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Please do. There are very good reasons why burning your own rubbish is not the done thing in modern society.

Would it be ok for them to bury it then? The council do that.

djpbarry

tayto lover wrote: »

Would it be ok for them to bury it then?

If they compost it first, yes.

Mr.Micro

djpbarry wrote: »

If they compost it first, yes.

Tayto has a point. The Council does bury rubbish and much of it is not compostable and its plastic, metal, liquids, all sorts of non biodegradable stuff.


The less waste the better but still everything is wrapped in plastic, hard or soft. With regards to the Council calling round to see ones contract re waste that is OK by me, if we can all call round to the Council when it is not doing it job.

Kosseegan

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should be noted that this is a Bye-Law and as such fully compliant with the laws of the land.

A bye Lay is not immune to legal challenge on the grounds of unconstitutionality or exceeding the power to make it under the parent statute. I would foresee an early and successful challenge to this.

oscarBravo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Tayto has a point. The Council does bury rubbish and much of it is not compostable and its plastic, metal, liquids, all sorts of non biodegradable stuff.

The council has a licence to do so. If Tayto's neighbours want to burn or bury their rubbish, they are more than welcome to apply for the appropriate permit.

djpbarry

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Tayto has a point. The Council does bury rubbish and much of it is not compostable and its plastic, metal, liquids, all sorts of non biodegradable stuff.

Sure, but as said above, they have a permit to do so and besides, this stuff wouldn't be getting buried if residents weren't putting it in "landfill waste" to begin with.

Outkast_IRE

Why would they need door to door, they need to get resource sharing.

1. Get rid of the use of bin tags, these make it much harder to track whos actually paying for waste collection.

2. The government since the household charge has a list of every property in the country. Force bin comanpies to give them a list of their customers.

3. Cross check the list.

4.Landlords including Social housing, increase their rent to cover bins, make it landlords responsibility to provide bins.

I believe this would show who is having no bin collections whatsoever. Obviously concentrate on illegal dumping blackspots first.

RichardAnd

enda1 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dubliners-will-have-to-prove-how-they-dispose-of-waste-1.1393650

The right to not have to jump through hoops to prove innocence


What do you all think?

No one should ever have to prove innocence. An accuser makes the accusation, it's up to him or her to prove it.

Mr.Micro

oscarBravo wrote: »

The council has a licence to do so. If Tayto's neighbours want to burn or bury their rubbish, they are more than welcome to apply for the appropriate permit.

I am totally against burning rubbish or burying it for that matter. Having said that, we all generate masses of waste, much of it is toxic and non recyclable and the councils need to do more than just bully people, when itself does bury and burn rubbish, by licence of course.

oscarBravo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am totally against burning rubbish or burying it for that matter. Having said that, we all generate masses of waste, much of it is toxic and non recyclable and the councils need to do more than just bully people, when itself does bury and burn rubbish, by licence of course.

I detest the use of the word "bully" to denote any behaviour other than actual bullying, which is a serious problem, cheapened by the overuse of the term.

If a council official calls to my door I'll show him or her the evidence that my waste is being collected. I won't feel bullied, and I'll be happy to do so if it helps cut down on the scourge of illegal dumping.

rasper

As much as I dislike our government and the councils , this may be necessary as its getting to be a very serious with extreme
Consequences which is expensive to rectify , if its in law that u must pay a propert5 / dog / broadcast tax , then desposing of hazardous waste properly
Is surely more important than these

TheMartian

Control, control, control,... (in theory)
The government try to control, but in the end they haven't a clue and end up disturbing everyone.

When they were meant to really control or regulate - for example - the financial institutions in this country to avoid the economical bust, they didn't control. See the mess we ended up.

I think the only right the good citizen of this country has is to pay, pay, pay,... pay for whatever tax, fee, surcharge, levy is imposed on us.


One more thing to be bothered about.
I meant,... for the people that do things right.

I have a problem with some dude knocking my door to demand proof of this or that,... as if I had done something wrong when I didn't.
If the State and the Councils were properly organized, with systems properly setup, they SHOULD be able to know who would be messing up.

"More" power are given to Councils,... Revenue has the power to pull out property tax from people salaries, Water charges on the way, etc , etc... and many etcs...

Where are going to end???
We will become slaves,... if we are not already.

oscarBravo

TheMartian wrote: »

If the State and the Councils were properly organized, with systems properly setup, they SHOULD be able to know who would be messing up.

So you have a problem with being asked whether you have a contract for waste disposal, but you don't have a problem with waste disposal companies being asked whether they have a contract with you?

Mr.Micro

oscarBravo wrote: »

I detest the use of the word "bully" to denote any behaviour other than actual bullying, which is a serious problem, cheapened by the overuse of the term.

If a council official calls to my door I'll show him or her the evidence that my waste is being collected. I won't feel bullied, and I'll be happy to do so if it helps cut down on the scourge of illegal dumping.

The wording of the Times article is

The council will have the power to call to residents and demand they produce evidence of how they dispose of their waste. Unless they have the permission of the council, residents must have a contract with a waste provider.

Fines
On-the-spot fines of €75 can be imposed by the council for people who fail to prove they are disposing of their waste properly. Householders could face court action if they fail to pay.

Many people would feel intimidated by the word, demand, and how exactly such a demand is made. Does demand mean ask politely or request. It appears quite aggressive to me and court action for those who cannot or will supply the information.

oscarBravo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Many people would feel intimidated by the word, demand, and how exactly such a demand is made.

"Hi, I'm from the council. Would you mind if I ask how you dispose of your household waste?"

Mr.Micro

oscarBravo wrote: »

"Hi, I'm from the council. Would you mind if I ask how you dispose of your household waste?"

That would be acceptable IMO, but I presume you are being sarcastic? The Councils are there to serve the public and should treat the public with due regard, and the wording requests for information should be polite, respectful and non threatening. As of now most of us will be paying property tax and the Councils will need to put as much effort and diligence into all the other duties they are charged to perform.

TheMartian

oscarBravo wrote: »

So you have a problem with being asked whether you have a contract for waste disposal, but you don't have a problem with waste disposal companies being asked whether they have a contract with you?

Yes Oscar,... you got exactly the point.

They should be able to ( or given powers to) consult the database from the waste disposal companies, cross check data, and leave who's doing right in peace. I wouldn't even need to know about consults about myself, if it is something properly regulated. Simple.

This way they have a better chance to pick up exactly those messing up,... in a concentrated and more intelligent effort. When they do pick people messing up, stick a heavy fine in their pockets.

Similar stuff I think is done for TV licence,... where they cross check address data from the TV companies to spot potential people dodging the fee.

I don't want to know about some unknown dude popping in in my door demanding stuff, as if I was some sort of criminal or had done something wrong, when I already paid and complied with my obligations.

My peace, is ==>MY<== peace.

tayto lover

djpbarry wrote: »

Sure, but as said above, they have a permit to do so and besides, this stuff wouldn't be getting buried if residents weren't putting it in "landfill waste" to begin with.

Am I being bad-minded in thinking that they really don't care too much about the rubbish, it's the money they want?

Mr.Micro

tayto lover wrote: »

Am I being bad-minded in thinking that they really don't care too much about the rubbish, it's the money they want?

Also the Council will have to pay for the clean up of illegal dumping etc, and that puts a big dent in the budget, that is what is hurting more.

oscarBravo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

That would be acceptable IMO, but I presume you are being sarcastic?

I'm really not. Just because the Times use the term "demand" doesn't mean that the approach from the council will necessarily be antagonistic.

TheMartian wrote: »

Yes Oscar,... you got exactly the point.

They should be able to ( or given powers to) consult the database from the waste disposal companies, cross check data, and leave who's doing right in peace. I wouldn't even need to know about consults about myself, if it is something properly regulated. Simple.

I run a business. I am registered with the Data Protection Commissioner. Speaking personally, I'd be a lot more comfortable with a council representative calling to my door asking about my compliance with the law than with one calling to my office asking for information on my customers' compliance.

Godge

TheMartian wrote: »

Yes Oscar,... you got exactly the point.

They should be able to ( or given powers to) consult the database from the waste disposal companies, cross check data, and leave who's doing right in peace. I wouldn't even need to know about consults about myself, if it is something properly regulated. Simple.

This way they have a better chance to pick up exactly those messing up,... in a concentrated and more intelligent effort. When they do pick people messing up, stick a heavy fine in their pockets.

Similar stuff I think is done for TV licence,... where they cross check address data from the TV companies to spot potential people dodging the fee.

I don't want to know about some unknown dude popping in in my door demanding stuff, as if I was some sort of criminal or had done something wrong, when I already paid and complied with my obligations.

My peace, is ==>MY<== peace.

doing the bit in bold would be a breach of the Data Protection Act, unless each customer freely signed a form to say that their information could be used in that way.

AlekSmart

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Also the Council will have to pay for the clean up of illegal dumping etc, and that puts a big dent in the budget, that is what is hurting more.

Passed along Mountjoy Square/Gardiner St this morning c.0615 and interesting to see the amount of plastic bags left out "for collection" with not a tag or sticker in sight......austerity hurts for sure...:rolleyes:

HurtLocker

Maybe we should have something like we have on cars?

TV licence disc, property tax disc, water charge disc and a waste disposal disc? All on the front window.

Or maybe give barcodes linked to house accounts that prove payment, to be displayed on everyone's window.

Nanny state for the win! And it'll let your noisy neighbours inspect that your taxes are up to date. Any argument against this could be used to argue the display of NCT or motor tax, yet displaying them is mandatory and no one moans.

Burning rubbish in a stove or open fire is hardly illegal.

I don't support the disc idea but having all these different inspectors is a joke. Between airtricity,sky and charity's and state inspectors (dog, tv etc.) everyone seems to have the right to burst in on ones private life at any time of the day demanding money :mad:

oscarBravo

HurtLocker wrote: »

Burning rubbish in a stove or open fire is hardly illegal.

It certainly is.

HurtLocker

oscarBravo wrote: »

It certainly is.

More aimed at rural people using diesel to burn up all their waste than urban people getting rid of their empty sweet packet and pack of taytos.

oscarBravo

HurtLocker wrote: »

More aimed at rural people using diesel to burn up all their waste than urban people getting rid of their empty sweet packet and pack of taytos.

Perhaps you could cite the relevant legislation to support that interpretation of the law.