Finian McGrath and you Speedy Gonzales's.

ThisRegard

What's the Dub equivalent of a gombeen man ? One of the papers ran with this gem from McGrath this morning and his recent rant about cyclists recently in the Dail about motorists and their tax evasion.

I can't find the paper that it's in, but Cycling in Dublin picked up on it,
http://cyclingindublin.com/2013/05/03/finian-mcgraths-cyclist-rant-in-tax-dodging-motorist-debate/

Given the substantial contribution motorists make to the State coffers, it gets up my nose that we are not listened to in the broader debate on how money is spent and the quality of road infrastructure, services and so forth.

It also gets up my nose when I encounter the anti-motorist attitude that prevails among a section of the cycling population.

Many, although not all, cyclists speed around Dublin, jump lights, cycle up one-way streets and clip the wing mirrors of cars caught in traffic jams. I regularly refer to these individuals as “Speedy Gonzales” types who arrogantly believe they are cool, clean heroes in contrast to motorists who are polluting the country. They should know that we motorists contribute €1 billion in motor tax to the economy and we also have certain rights. We should be listened to and taken seriously.

Schnitzel Muncher

That lad is some boyo.

Raam

He likes to stick his election posters real low on the Clontarf cycle track. Head height.

buffalo

At least he called it "motor tax". I for one applaud him on that!

Harrybelafonte

He does mention that it's a section of the cycling community. So, considering many of the threads on this forum, he's right and we, or a section of us, support hi. Right?

seamus

Many, although not all, cyclists speed around Dublin, jump lights, cycle up one-way streets and clip the wing mirrors of cars caught in traffic jams. I regularly refer to these individuals as “Speedy Gonzales” types who arrogantly believe they are cool, clean heroes in contrast to motorists who are polluting the country. They should know that we motorists contribute €1 billion in motor tax to the economy and we also have certain rights. We should be listened to and taken seriously.

These cyclists don't exist. They are a figment of many motorists' imaginations. I reckon this fictional speeding, law-breaking smug eco cyclist is something of an amalgamation in the motorists' mind of a number of different types of cyclists, but seeing all cyclists as roadway adversaries, the motorist is unable to distinguish one from another.

Of course no doubt in the same breath he'll also complain about slow cyclists holding up traffic.

Schnitzel Muncher

seamus wrote: »

These cyclists don't exist. They are a figment of many motorists' imaginations. I reckon this fictional speeding, law-breaking smug eco cyclist is something of an amalgamation in the motorists' mind of a number of different types of cyclists, but seeing all cyclists as roadway adversaries, the motorist is unable to distinguish one from another.

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

Raam

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

Cyclists don't go the wrong way, people go the wrong way.

Schnitzel Muncher

Raam wrote: »

Cyclists don't go the wrong way, people go the wrong way.

People or people on bikes?

galwaycyclist

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

Why would that be a problem?

buffalo

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

Desire path. Perfect spot to continue the bizarrely short cycle track that already goes the "wrong way" by the Luas station. Likewise Leinster St south by the dublinbike station, or Lombard St. Bloody salmon!

Mr McGrath has a point though, there are plenty of law breaking cyclists out there. Just as there are plenty of law breaking motorists... is he suggesting they're okay because they pay motor tax? I didn't realise that paying certain types of tax freed us from the constraints of the law. I for one welcome our new bike taxing overlords!

On a re-read, he's suggesting that those who pay the most tax should dictate policy... If that's a rate based evaluation, I look forward to being consulted on matters of national importance ahead of Google!

ThisRegard

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

People or people on bikes?

Probably the same people who also pay direct and indirect taxes on their cars too.

seamus

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

And they're all speeding, smug, lycra-wearing eco warriors, clipping the wing mirrors of all the cars in their way?

That's my point. Some cyclists break red lights. Some are eco hippies. Some (like most people here) cycle more quickly than others. A few are the type to deliberately clip wing mirrors, and some cycle the wrong way down the road.

It is plain incorrect to suggest that a large number of cyclists fit into all of these categories. That's my point - many motorists have this stereotype in which all (or most) cyclists fit into all of these categories. When most cyclists in fact, don't.

Schnitzel Muncher

ThisRegard wrote: »

Probably the same people who also pay direct and indirect taxes on their cars too.

So that means the laws don't apply? I don't suppose Motorists can use the same excuse...

Wishbone Ash

ThisRegard wrote: »

What's the Dub equivalent of a gombeen man?

McGrath is from Galway!

Schnitzel Muncher

seamus wrote: »

And they're all speeding, smug, lycra-wearing eco warriors, clipping the wing mirrors of all the cars in their way?

That's my point. Some cyclists break red lights. Some are eco hippies. Some (like most people here) cycle more quickly than others. A few are the type to deliberately clip wing mirrors, and some cycle the wrong way down the road.

It is plain incorrect to suggest that a large number of cyclists fit into all of these categories. That's my point - many motorists have this stereotype in which all (or most) cyclists fit into all of these categories. When most cyclists in fact, don't.

You were the one saying they don't exist. Did McGrath mention smug or lycra?

Schnitzel Muncher

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Why would that be a problem?

Same reason a motorist mowing through cyclists is a problem.

seamus

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

You were the one saying they don't exist.

The stereotype doesn't exist.

Did McGrath mention smug or lycra?

Does he have to? It's implied.

Though reading the full text of his speech he basically slotted in an anti-cyclist paragraph into what is supposed to be a discussion on a measure to cut down on motor tax evasion.

So his nonsense can be easily dismissed as pointless ranting from an angry idiot.

Schnitzel Muncher

seamus wrote: »

The stereotype doesn't exist.
Does he have to? It's implied.

Though reading the full text of his speech he basically slotted in an anti-cyclist paragraph into what is supposed to be a discussion on a measure to cut down on motor tax evasion.

So his nonsense can be easily dismissed as pointless ranting from an angry idiot.

Implied? Stereotypes?

hardCopy

The classic presumption that cyclists don't pay motor tax, based of course on absolutely nothing.

ThisRegard

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

McGrath is from Galway!

Well he's a TD in Dublin since the 90s so we need something to come after the gombeen bit then so both Dubs and Galwegians understand the type of person we're talking about :P

Wishbone Ash

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well he's a TD in Dublin since the 90s

2002

ThisRegard

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

2002

I concede to your better knowledge

[rushes off to wikipedia to try win a tinternet argument, damn, he was a county county councillor at the end of the 90s, close enough]

Chips Lovell

He's right about the light breaking and one way street riding. Don't see much wing mirror clipping.

galwaycyclist

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Same reason a motorist mowing through cyclists is a problem.

I see what you did there. If that is what you are talking about, then yes cyclists failing to respect pedestrian crossings is a problem.

But that wasnt the issue you raised. You raised the issue of cyclists using one-way streets in both directions.

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Rubbish - ask any rush hour pedestrian in Dublin city. Or stand at the Stephens green luas stop and see the stream of cyclists go the wrong way on the one way stretch.

Why is that a problem? It was legalised in some countries 30 years ago.

HivemindXX

I think it's great to see a politician brave enough to tell the majority of people what they want to hear.

rp

They should know that we motorists contribute €1 billion in motor tax to the economy and we also have certain rights. We should be listened to and taken seriously.

Getting a bit fed up of this, the idea that driving is helping our economy. It isn't, the opposite is true. Any proper accounting shows that motorists are subsidized by the general tax payer (*), not to mention the effect on our balance of payments due to oil imports.

(*) UK figures show that motorist are net beneficiaries to the tune of about £1000 per year; VRT in Ireland means that figure is probably less here, but they are still sponging off the state.

DirkVoodoo

Sitting at the junction of Merrion road and Ailesbury road yesterday, waiting patiently for the lights.

Next thing 2 cars started beeping another guy. He was stopped at the red light because the pedestrian light had gone green. The beeping continued until he went through, followed by the other 2 cars.

As for adding to the coffers: where is that piece on how cars actually cost the state? Not to mention that most road maintenance is caused by heavy vehicles and not bikes.

hollypink

I find it really irritating to read such anti-cycling rants. I only commute by bike occasionally and drive frequently. For every red-light breaking/cycling-on-the-footpath cyclist I see, I see equally as many motorists breaking the rules of the road. For example:
-holding a mobile phone whilst driving, including texting
-amber gambling, or even driving through when the light has actually gone red
-breaking red lights (I see this at a particular junction where really, it would be more sensible to have a yield sign, but that's no excuse)
-driving in the wrong lane
-changing lanes without indicating
-driving in the bus lane at times when the bus lane is still in operation
-crossing a continuous white line (this is on a narrow road with loads of blind bends)
-lots of parking violations such as parking in cycle lanes, up on the kerb, opposite a continuous white line, on a double yellow line

I'm not defending cyclists who jump the lights or cycle on the footpath or commit other breaches of the rules of the road. They are in the wrong. But anti-cycling motorists like Deputy McGrath seem to be determined to ignore motoring violations and to solely focus on cycling ones. And some of the above motoring violations are extremely dangerous; seeing a truck coming towards me partially on my side of a narrow road with no hard shoulder and no room to avoid him and realising that the driver was texting was a particularly scary experience for me recently while driving.

It worries me because stirring up antagonism towards vunerable road users has the potential to make the roads unsafe for cyclists. Instead of ranting about cyclists, why can't we have rants about dangerous road users and demands for enforcement on all road users?

unionman

Date: Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM
Subject: Motorists & cyclists
To: finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie


Dear Finian,

I'm a motorist. I pay €330 per year in motor tax. I understand why I have to pay it. My vehicle makes an impact on the road infrastructure and I understand that what I pay makes a small contribution to the maintenance of that infrastructure. However, I also know that the total amount of the motor tax paid each year is insufficient to maintain the road network, so I also make a contribution via tax on my income and other forms of indirect taxation.

I'm also aware that these additional contributions are paid by all the other taxpayers, regardless of whether or not they are motorists.

Finian, I'm also a cyclist. Roughly 75% of my weekly travel time is made by bike. Sometimes more.

I have long abandoned the notion that bad cyclist behaviour typifies the cycling population. Similarly, I don't believe that bad driving behaviour typifies the motorist population. I believe, quite rationally, that every road user has an ongoing responsibility to all other road users, regardless of their mode of transport.

But if there is one thing none of us need, it's a jaded lecture that attempts to polarise the issue on the basis of a perception that motorists have an enhanced right to righteous indignation because of their contribution to the exchequer.

I believe any attempt to assert this kind of argument is as asinine as it is unnecessarily vulgar.

Worse, your argument will not contribute anything to road safety. It will merely polarise the stakeholders. That could actually make things worse.

A little forethought before the populist outburst might have been useful.

Sincerely
unionman
Dublin South Central

Finian's reply:
2013/5/15 Finian McGrath <finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie>
Hi (unionman),

It's definitely not populist. I disagree with you. I witnessed cyclists on paths, knocking kids down, jumping lights etc. I hope they listen. I did say all cyclists. Just some.

Best wishes,
Finian McGrath T.D. (IND)
(Dublin Bay North)

My reply to his reply:
Date: Wed, May 15, 2013 at 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Motorists & cyclists
To: Finian McGrath <finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie>


By that measure Finian, we can all relate accounts of things we've seen and extrapolate that everything we bear witness to is a widespread phenomenon.

For example, a person may observe that a politician is 'corrupt, vain and self-serving' and extrapolate that all politicians are 'corrupt, vain and self-serving''. However, that doesn't make it true.

I'm assuming your last message contained a typo and that by 'I did say all cyclists' you meant 'I didn't say all cyclists'.

And by 'populist' I meant that publishing your argument in the Daily Mail gave you (at least insofar as demographics are concerned) a better chance of speaking to an audience that largely agrees with you. So yes, it is populist. You're not the first columnist peddling that argument in its pages.

unionman

galwaycyclist

What he said in the paper - Daily Mail apparently

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/15/cycling-lessons-you-say/

Chips Lovell

Someone should tell Finian we've only just revoked mandatory use of cycle lanes

buffalo

galwaycyclist wrote: »

What he said in the paper - Daily Mail apparently

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/15/cycling-lessons-you-say/

Well, that explains a lot.

ThisRegard

galwaycyclist wrote: »

What he said in the paper - Daily Mail apparently

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/15/cycling-lessons-you-say/

Just about to post that. Yes, his foot wasn't in deep enough after his dail exchange so he now tries a bit of wiggling to get it down further.

chakattack

Next time I get his waffle through my no junk mail labelled letterbox it might end up superglued to his constituency office window

anotherrunner

I think he's known as the pro-smoking TD. He was on Primetime a month or so ago explaining how the tax on cigarettes goes straight into the economy and smoking effectively creates jobs - needless to say it got a confused look from Miriam! :-)

fat bloke

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Why is that a problem? It was legalised in some countries 30 years ago.

Try standing in the doorway of your city centre flat in your best lingerie, beckoning to passing strangers, with a red light over the door...;)

elduggo

ThisRegard wrote: »

“Speedy Gonzales” types who arrogantly believe they are cool, clean heroes

can't believe he thinks I'm arrogant

galwaycyclist

fat bloke wrote: »

Try standing in the doorway of your city centre flat in your best lingerie, beckoning to passing strangers, with a red light over the door...;)

Would I have to shave my legs as well? (I'm not that kind of cyclist)

Dermot Illogical

Dear Finian,

We are not an oil producing nation. Every time you drive you make the country poorer. Shame on you.

DI

Keep_Her_Lit

Indeed, the poor man does look a little stressed.



If I consider the busier sections of my daily commute, the stress levels would certainly escalate if I had to drive rather than cycle them. 3 or 4 rotations of a set of traffic lights to get through a single junction, instead of 0 or 1, certainly wouldn't help my mood each morning and evening. I like cars and driving ... maintain my own cars, been to Silverstone, Le Mans, hared around the country following the Circuit of Ireland ... but quite simply, cars are a crap mode of transport for a busy urban environment.

However, this doesn't seem to be enough to dent the idea held by many that a car is the only tolerable means of completing any journey. On my commute, I just want to get myself and as little other stuff as possible from one place to another, safely, quickly, economically, healthily and enjoyably. A bicycle ticks all those boxes and then some. A car ticks the first (assuming responsible driving behaviour) but fails abysmally on all other counts.

I have absolutely no desire to drag a 3-piece suite encased in a tonne or two of metal and plastic around congested streets at a snail's pace. Many do, bizarrely, and it should come as no surprise that a proportion of those making this choice feel the need to find an easy target at which to direct the stress arising from that choice.

When I drive in busy conditions, any stress experienced comes overwhelmingly from other drivers, not cyclists or pedestrians. Tailgating, cutting up, undertaking in bus lanes, RLJ'ing, refusing to let traffic merge and being dangerously impatient are the order of the day for a small but highly anti-social proportion of drivers. Thankfully, I manage to avoid nearly all of that nonsense when cycling.

Deputy Dawg McGrath ... On Yer Bike!!

monument

galwaycyclist wrote: »

What he said in the paper - Daily Mail apparently

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/15/cycling-lessons-you-say/

It seems he read my blog post about his rant before he wrote that. He then fine tuned his excuses.

fat bloke

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Would I have to shave my legs as well? (I'm not that kind of cyclist)

If you want my business!

doozerie

it gets up my nose that we are not listened to in the broader debate on how money is spent and the quality of road infrastructure, services and so forth.

It also gets up my nose when I encounter the anti-motorist attitude that prevails among a section of the cycling population.

No wonder he is cranky, between his nose being so congested by having so much stuff up it, and his mouth busy producing bile, his brain probably hasn't had a feed of oxygen in ages.

hardCopy

He is a man of inconsistent policies. He originally ran as a "Health Alliance" candidate and yet later ends up canvassing the HSE to back off his local boozer's illegal smoking area. Tool.

unionman

Finian and I have exchanged some correspondence since this morning. He's sticking to his (allegedly non-populist) guns...

unionman wrote: »

Date: Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM
Subject: Motorists & cyclists
To: finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie


Dear Finian,

I'm a motorist. I pay €330 per year in motor tax. I understand why I have to pay it. My vehicle makes an impact on the road infrastructure and I understand that what I pay makes a small contribution to the maintenance of that infrastructure. However, I also know that the total amount of the motor tax paid each year is insufficient to maintain the road network, so I also make a contribution via tax on my income and other forms of indirect taxation.

I'm also aware that these additional contributions are paid by all the other taxpayers, regardless of whether or not they are motorists.

Finian, I'm also a cyclist. Roughly 75% of my weekly travel time is made by bike. Sometimes more.

I have long abandoned the notion that bad cyclist behaviour typifies the cycling population. Similarly, I don't believe that bad driving behaviour typifies the motorist population. I believe, quite rationally, that every road user has an ongoing responsibility to all other road users, regardless of their mode of transport.

But if there is one thing none of us need, it's a jaded lecture that attempts to polarise the issue on the basis of a perception that motorists have an enhanced right to righteous indignation because of their contribution to the exchequer.

I believe any attempt to assert this kind of argument is as asinine as it is unnecessarily vulgar.

Worse, your argument will not contribute anything to road safety. It will merely polarise the stakeholders. That could actually make things worse.

A little forethought before the populist outburst might have been useful.

Sincerely
unionman
Dublin South Central

Finian's reply:
2013/5/15 Finian McGrath <finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie>
Hi (unionman),

It's definitely not populist. I disagree with you. I witnessed cyclists on paths, knocking kids down, jumping lights etc. I hope they listen. I did say all cyclists. Just some.

Best wishes,
Finian McGrath T.D. (IND)
(Dublin Bay North)

My reply to his reply:
Date: Wed, May 15, 2013 at 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Motorists & cyclists
To: Finian McGrath <finian.mcgrath@oireachtas.ie>


By that measure Finian, we can all relate accounts of things we've seen and extrapolate that everything we bear witness to is a widespread phenomenon.

For example, a person may observe that a politician is 'corrupt, vain and self-serving' and extrapolate that all politicians are 'corrupt, vain and self-serving''. However, that doesn't make it true.

I'm assuming your last message contained a typo and that by 'I did say all cyclists' you meant 'I didn't say all cyclists'.

And by 'populist' I meant that publishing your argument in the Daily Mail gave you (at least insofar as demographics are concerned) a better chance of speaking to an audience that largely agrees with you. So yes, it is populist. You're not the first columnist peddling that argument in its pages.

unionman

dave_o_brien

Dear Finian,

(blah blah, basically what unionman said, but not as eloquent)

I hope you are aware that the roads are there to serve our public space, not the other way around. If we continue to demonise the people who occupy our public space, in favour of one of the most dangerous objects that can be legally purchased by an individual, we will soon find our shops and businesses struggling in urban environments, as can be witnessed in so many commuter towns, such as Kilcock, Dundalk and Maynooth. It is a long established fact that promoting the urban environment for the use of pedestrians is massively beneficial to local businesses, and part of this is to discourage people from using their cars. Being in a public position, your lazy attack on people who pursue other modes of transport sends out a message that runs counter to attempts to remedy this, instead pandering to misguided, car-centric public opinion.

Sincerely
David O'Brien
_________________________________________________________________

Dear David,

Thank you for your email on cyclists. My position is:
1. I did not say "all cyclists".
2. I have witnessed accidents on footpaths with children, complaints from senior citizens and disabled, people jumping red lights etc for many years. It is dangerous.
3. Bad behaviour from cyclists as well as motorists is wrong. That's what I said.
4. If my views save one life or prevent one accident, I'm satisfied with that.
5. Mutual respect between motorists and cyclists is all I want.

Kind regards,
Finian McGrath T.D. (IND)

_______________________________________________________________

Dear Finian,

1. Your implication was clear to anyone who read the piece. You feel that somehow, because motorists are obliged to pay for their motors, they have an entitlement to the public space. You lazily pointed out the behaviour of some cyclists as example, using this straw man as a basis for demanding "rights" that apparently are denied to you as a motorist. What rights are these that you are being denied?

2. I have witnessed many motorists texting while driving, not observing speed limits, breaking reds, etc. It is dangerous.

3. Your comments chose to attack the minor group in demand for "rights" for the major group. This form of argument is derogatory and insulting. More importantly, it is populistic and wrong. As a person of public standing, you owe your public better than that.

4. There have been 2 fatalities in the last 7 days caused by motorists. Do you know how many deaths have been attributed to cyclists in the history of the state? 0. That's zero. If your basis for attacking cyclists is safety, I really don't see how you can begin that one. The motor vehicle is the most lethal device commonly owned by an individual in Ireland, which is why we have registration, licensing, insurance, etc. If you want to save lives, pursue a reduction in motor use, a reduction in speed limits and enforcement of the speed limits.

5. You have a peculiar way of communicating that. Be honest, you were not looking for respect between motorists and cyclists, you were demanding a greater level of respect for motorists, because "they pay for it", even though they (and I include myself here, as a motorist myself) cost the state significantly more than they generate.

Finian, your comments stank of self-entitlement. They were the comments of a person out of touch with the reality of transportation in an urban environment. They seemed biased, and angry. Your response is that of a politician, trying to redress what they said to make it more palatable to an irate individual, although you continue to stand by your point, deeply flawed though it is. Your comments are rooted in a belief that our roads belong to the motor vehicles that occupy them, and not that they belong to a greater network of public space that is there to support the quality of life of the citizens. To improve the quality of our public space, a much greater deal can be done about our motorists misdemeanours than our cyclists.

69 people have been killed in the last 12 months on Irish roads, all by motorists.

Kind regards,
David O'Brien

djemba djemba

He is on Matt Cooper now

average_runner

On radio now. No matter what bikes should not be on footpaths or going thru red lights.

buffalo

dave_o_brien wrote: »

4. There have been 2 fatalities in the last 7 days caused by motorists. Do you know how many deaths have been attributed to cyclists in the history of the state? 0. That's zero.

As much as I agree with the thrust of your point, and that of the rest of your letter, I'm aware of one case in Dublin where a man was knocked down by a cyclist and suffered head injuries, from which he subsequently died.

I can't recall his name (and cannot find it via Google), but I heard the tragic story told by his daughter on the radio, as she asked for the cyclist to come forward. The father was crossing a one-way street at the time, and only looked the one way, and was struck by the cyclist going the wrong way.

Obviously, the number of deaths caused by incidents involving motor vehicles is still much, much higher, but we should remember that breaking the rules, even on a bike, can have fatal consequences.

Captain Havoc

Dear Finian,
I pay motor tax, insurance and drive 750kms per week, you can suck on my lemon.
TTFN
CH