Reserve Garda Denied Medal for Bravery

GABOS

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/reservists-hit-out-at-snub-to-one-of-their-own-29259837.html

Garda reservists say a decision to award bravery awards to two gardai who apprehended an armed man in Dublin, but not to award a Garda Reserve member who also took part in the arrest, is a "slap in the face".

They also say that large numbers of reservists are quitting due to disillusionment and that maybe only half the 1,000 reservists are completing the mandatory 208 hours of annual service to qualify for an allowance of €1,000.

The incident in which the two gardai and the reservist, a retired London Metropolitan Police inspector, apprehended the two men happened in Coolock in January 2009. The gardai and reservists spotted two men acting suspiciously in a car and when they confronted them they found the front-seat passenger was armed with a handgun, which later turned out to be loaded. The gunman and passenger, who both violently resisted arrest, were later jailed.

Colleagues say that the reservist played a full role in the apprehension of the armed man and his accomplice but was unaware that the two gardai, Brian Dromey and Killian Barry, were being awarded bronze Scott medals for bravery at the annual awards ceremony in Templemore Garda College last November.

The reservist, who is in his 50s and who moved to Dublin after retiring from the Met force, had been stationed in Coolock at the time where his experience as an inspector in some of the toughest parts of London was said to have been of considerable assistance to young and trainee gardai, as well as other reservists. He has since moved to another Dublin suburban station.

One of his reserve colleagues said: "He wasn't even told the two gardai were getting awards. I'm sure he would have been glad for them but he took a full part in that arrest. It was a dangerous situation but he served in rough parts of London and knew what to do. A lot of us in the Reserve were upset about it. It is a bit of a slap in the face.

"We don't know if there are arrangements for reservists to receive awards. We asked but were told no one was clear on it. We are sworn members of the Garda Siochana so we don't see why we shouldn't be awarded for bravery."

WilcoOut

absolutely charming that is

mcko

Bloody disgrace, I sure the the gunman would not have discriminated between shooting a Reserve Garda or a full time Garda, if the two guys who got the Scott Medals had any pride they should refuse to accept the award till their reserve member gets an award as well. Shame on them, and shame on full time Gardai if they allow this to happen.

Tyron Jara

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-reserve-member-nominated-for-scott-medal-134102.html

Is this the same gardai???

redsurfer

Yes

eoinkildare

This is a bull**** story. Independent has it all wrong. Reserve wasn't in the car, he was just in one of the many many other cars that assisted on the night. Also, he was a special constable in England, not an inspector...

Surely everyone knows at this stage not to believe everything they read in the papers?
Eoin

Liamos Dubs

Don't know anything about the case but it would appear a reservist was nominated but didn't receive any award.

Are reservists considered members of AGS ? Not trying to start a fight but under the terms of the award scheme its not an civilian award so is there a technicality that wasn't envisaged.

I know a student garda won one and was only awarded it a year or two later when they ammended some rules to allow it.

King Ludvig

Reserve Gardaí are considered members, Garda Reserve being their rank. A student garda/student reserve is not a member until attestation. A reserve can receive the scotts medal. I don't know the facts of the above scenerio so I wont's say he should/should not have recieved the medal, however, if he was excluded simply because of his rank I'm sure full timers and reservists alike would consider that completely wrong and unfair.

There is only one GR so far to have received a commendation for bravery, a young man in his late 20's who faced down a man with a firearm which later turned out to be an imitation firearm.

WilcoOut

King Ludvig wrote: »

Reserve Gardaí are considered IN FACT members, Garda Reserve being their rank..

corrected

SB2013

eoinkildare wrote: »

This is a bull**** story. Independent has it all wrong. Reserve wasn't in the car, he was just in one of the many many other cars that assisted on the night. Also, he was a special constable in England, not an inspector...

Surely everyone knows at this stage not to believe everything they read in the papers?
Eoin

I generally find that if it's a story about Gardaí in the Indo it should be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm sure we all remember theie story about Gardaí having 174 days annual leave under the new rosters.

Liamos Dubs

King Ludvig wrote: »

Reserve Gardaí are considered members

Are they really though?

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

official identification says so

garda siochana act 2005 says so

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda

from: http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=19&Lang=1

msg11

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

Yes. Members of AGS under the AGS Act 2005 section 15.

'(3) Subject to subsection (5), a reserve member has, while on duty, the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person appointed under section 14 to the rank of garda.'

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0015.html#sec15

Tyron Jara

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

YES!! we are members if only part time members. One thing I find funny in that article is how there portraying how the reserve force is outraged. I didnt even hear about it till I read it and I was like hey im a reserve how the hell do they know what we think.We never got asked?

Theres more to that story that meets the eye.

Liamos Dubs

msg11 wrote: »

Yes. Members of AGS under the AGS Act 2005 section 15.

'(3) Subject to subsection (5), a reserve member has, while on duty, the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person appointed under section 14 to the rank of garda.'

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0015.html#sec15

Powers = Nil.

Ye hardly want a medal for watching other people work.:)

Only havin a laugh don't get offended.

Management have left it that the station cleaner is valued more than reservists.

J K

Medals are a load of cr@p anyway. I'm sure they would all of preferred a fifty euro bonus in their next pay cheque.

Medals and commendations originated in military traditions where they wanted to encourage sacrificial bravery in the troops. Cheap piece of metal to buy life.


"Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in deserving them"
Aristotle

King Ludvig

Borderline trolling from Liamos Dubs there. The debate as to "is a reserve a member?"/"do they have any powers?" has been done to death.

Lets not derail this topic. Consult the legislation for an answer to your questions, namely section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005.

Liamos Dubs

King Ludvig wrote: »

Borderline trolling from Liamos Dubs there.

No trolling here I was being humorous. If you don't have a sense of humour and can't take a bit of good natured slagging maybe this isn't the career for you.

King Ludvig wrote: »

Lets not derail this topic. Consult the legislation for an answer to your questions, namely section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005.

You continued to quote Section 15 GSA 2005. Subsection 5 clearly places the provisio that you have no powers unless Number One says so.

The Scott Medal award Commitee's, which I may know a little more about than you, had to amend regulations and the Code to allow a full member be awarded a Scott medal for an incident he was involved while a student Garda. This took a while as Scott Medals aren't handed out like confetti.

So my non trolling point stands, most of management who decide upon these things, do not consider Reservists as "members". Many reserves only appear to be coming to realisation with the numbers that continually resign.

I don't know the ins and outs of this reservists case. But clearly he was nominated, not cited and someone was irked enough to go to the press.

You may dislike me for saying that but my point is genuine. It would be interesting to note if Divisional Award Committees have handed out many commends to reservists. This is local management decision making.

The Park appears to pay lip service to the reserve force as it politically has to. All indications to date would lead one to believe that they see it as an irritation.

I'm not trolling or trying to re do the whole reserve debate, which has been done to death, I giving an honest opinion to the question asked as to why this reservist wasn't given a Scott Medal. Now I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities.

msg11

Liam I understand your only joking in some senses. But I have to correct you before we have people thinking the reserves have no powers. There are powers there they can use, not big powers but powers all the same and they can arrest under the Criminal Law Act section 4(3) (members of the public can use 4(2)) and a few RTA powers so they have powers.

As for management not noticing them as members, I doubt they even half think about the reserves at all so I would agree.

Some members are not even sure what we are about. But what should matter is I am 100% behind the member/s I go out with no matter what the situation calls. I rather not been seen as some child, I am an adult and can handle myself if you get me.

The reserves are only new, even at 20 years they will still be only new. The only way I can see the reserves earning a bit of 'respect' as you put it is when full time members start at the rank of reserve if that makes any sense.

Hardly think anyone signs up to get medals but it would be nice but the respect as you put it around the station would be even nicer!

Also can I say one other thing Liam , if you are a full time member and notice these problems with the reserves why is someone not raising the issue with management then?

IMO also the reason for some many in the reserve dropping out is they might have though it would fast track recruitment when it started going on now 5/6 years into it which some people are this has not started and they are pulling out as there reason for joining is different than others who are staying on. Myself, its a mix of both. I would like a job in the long term but also enjoy police work so a few hours a week I can't see as a big deal.

King Ludvig

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Powers = Nil.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

You continued to quote Section 15 GSA 2005. Subsection 5 clearly places the provisio that you have no powers unless Number One says so.

You are slightly off. Subsection 3 states that reserve members have the same powers as a full time Garda. Subsection 5 allows the Commissioner to release or limit these powers. So far, the Commissioner has conferred upon reserves the most common power of arrest used by Gardaí (section 4(3)) along with some minor road traffic powers. Public order powers are next in line to be given, I believe. That's it. No more, no less. I don't know how so much debate can be dragged out of the above because it is publically available information and is available from numerous sources in black and white.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

The Scott Medal award Commitee's, which I may know a little more about than you, had to amend regulations and the Code to allow a full member be awarded a Scott medal for an incident he was involved while a student Garda. This took a while as Scott Medals aren't handed out like confetti.

I'd imagine the issue with the student Garda was that he was not yet sworn in as a member at the time of the incident?

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

So my non trolling point stands, most of management who decide upon these things, do not consider Reservists as "members". Many reserves only appear to be coming to realisation with the numbers that continually resign.

I don't know the ins and outs of this reservists case. But clearly he was nominated, not cited and someone was irked enough to go to the press.

You may dislike me for saying that but my point is genuine. It would be interesting to note if Divisional Award Committees have handed out many commends to reservists. This is local management decision making.

The Park appears to pay lip service to the reserve force as it politically has to. All indications to date would lead one to believe that they see it as an irritation.

I'm not trolling or trying to re do the whole reserve debate, which has been done to death, I giving an honest opinion to the question asked as to why this reservist wasn't given a Scott Medal. Now I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities.

I didn't challenge this part of your arguement and would be inclined to agree with most of it.

Liamos Dubs

msg11 wrote: »

Liam I understand your only joking in some senses. But I have to correct you before we have people thinking the reserves have no powers. There are powers there they can use, not big powers but powers all the same and they can arrest under the Criminal Law Act section 4(3) (members of the public can use 4(2)) and a few RTA powers so they have powers.

Which is effectively useless as the reserve member must be accompanied and Section 4(5) would see the arrested person transferred into the custody of a full member. Garda Reserve has no standing to institute proceedings in the name of the DPP.

The power to effect an arrest for an arrestable offence is effectively the same power any citizen has.

As the powers under road traffic act are only applicable when accompanied by a full member they are in the words of Brendan Grace 'Like a lighthouse in the Bog of Allen brilliant yet useless".


I'm not going to dance around legislation. The GR was foisted upon AGS by politicians. They're major set piece in the fight on Gangland crime was to introduce and part time/ unpaid force. Management has in true Irish fashion acknowledged that they had to introduce it but left it as a lame duck with no effective role or powers

I don't doubt the enthusiasm, good intentions or desire to serve that exists within reservists not for a minute. No one was born in the uniform, we were all eager to join and do our bit. No one has a monopoly in this regard and when i jokingly slag off the reserve its not the individuals its the structure that was brought in. The reserve was brought in on a political whim and as a result frontline members and management view the structure in a very jaundiced manner.


Gardai felt insulted as British police did with PCSO's, we wouldn't have reserve teachers, doctors or paramedics with such minimal training.

Sergeant's and Inspectors felt more pressure and responsibility were being put upon them and quietly District and Divisional Officers were pissed off that they were told to include reservist in Divisional/District strengths.

msg11 wrote: »

The reserves are only new, even at 20 years they will still be only new. The only way I can see the reserves earning a bit of 'respect' as you put it is when full time members start at the rank of reserve if that makes any sense.

No it will be viewed as a cheap way of recruiting, prior to full time recruitment they get you to jump through hoops prior to deciding if they want you or not.

If as many of the GR see it a path to full time recruitment what if the powers that be decided why loose a reserve we have for free and decide to get someone else in. How many would stay in the reserve then, i know there is a number who don't wish to be full time but the age demographic indicates there is a sizable number that do.

msg11 wrote: »

Also can I say one other thing Liam , if you are a full time member and notice these problems with the reserves why is someone not raising the issue with management then?

Raise it with management Jaysus was I that naive. Turkeys don't vote for christmas !

I have sat in meetings where the reserve has come up and senior officers have rolled their eyes to heaven. Can you blame them, planning operations and whether you have a person who is available for a couple of hours at the weekend and has to be accompanied by a full time member is not high on their priorities. They pay it lip service and are mistrusting of whole thing.


I don't want to pull the thread away from the original point. I still maintain this guy may not have been considered for an award due to being viewed as not a member, however wrong that may be.

Anyway I better tow the line i don't want some of the reserve mods to call a full time mod and get me banned..........:rolleyes: I'll get my coat.

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

official identification says so

garda siochana act 2005 says so

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda

from: http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=19&Lang=1

When they start recuiting again student garda will slot in above reserve garda as before.

Tyron Jara

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

When they start recuiting again student garda will slot in above reserve garda as before.

Student garda isnt a rank so it wont slot in anywhere. However you can be damn sure theyll be giving priority over a reserve and thats the way it should be.

Pappa Charlie

Tyron Jara wrote: »

Student garda isnt a rank so it wont slot in anywhere. However you can be damn sure theyll be giving priority over a reserve and thats the way it should be.

If that's the case you have to leave a rank to go to a non rank to get to the rank of garda, it dosent make sense! It makes a joke of the reserve IMO. In my time we had a lecture on the rank structure and student garda was on the same list as the reserve is now at the end of the list. Paper never refused ink I guess

WilcoOut

the fact that they would rank an attested reserve member beneath a uniformed civilian speaks volumns

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

the fact that they would rank an attested reserve member beneath a uniformed civilian speaks volumns

The student garda will be committing to a full time career in the force having met and passed the requirements for a full time position and will be in a full time training programme, I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

goldie fish

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The student garda will be committing to a full time career in the force having met and passed the requirements for a full time position and will be in a full time training programme, I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

A student garda is still a civilian till attestation and nothing is guaranteed. Plenty fail to make the grade, 3 of my intake committed crimes before being attested and progressed no further. They were not dismissed as you can't dismiss a civilian.

WilcoOut

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

thats an unfortunate perspective

Pappa Charlie

goldie fish wrote: »

A student garda is still a civilian till attestation and nothing is guaranteed. Plenty fail to make the grade, 3 of my intake committed crimes before being attested and progressed no further. They were not dismissed as you can't dismiss a civilian.

An attested reserve or member can also commit a crime and get kicked out and many have,I see no great difference, being dismissed or kicked out is the same as you end up without a career in AGS. I think the student garda would have far more to lose than a part time largely unpaid reserve in the long run!

WilcoOut

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

An attested reserve or member can also commit a crime and get kicked out and many have,I see no great difference, being dismissed or kicked out is the same as you end up without a career in AGS. I think the student garda would have far more to lose than a part time largely unpaid reserve in the long run!

its not about it the long run, its about the present

an attested reserve is a MEMBER

a student garda is not

although they will be in the future, for the duration of their training they are not attested members

i dont know what more to say - stick the reserves at the bottom if you will

save the best till last

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

thats an unfortunate perspective

Perception is reality though isn't it.

The point of whether a GR is a rank or not is illustrated by the fact you would have to enter at the starting point of student Garda to begin a full time career. So if a student Garda is 0 point does Garda reserve mean your at -1.


If you think the GR have it bad the PSO's get a right slagging from the inside and outside. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYxkZ9jTvk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTslawkcYk