Reserve Garda Denied Medal for Bravery

GABOS

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/reservists-hit-out-at-snub-to-one-of-their-own-29259837.html

Garda reservists say a decision to award bravery awards to two gardai who apprehended an armed man in Dublin, but not to award a Garda Reserve member who also took part in the arrest, is a "slap in the face".

They also say that large numbers of reservists are quitting due to disillusionment and that maybe only half the 1,000 reservists are completing the mandatory 208 hours of annual service to qualify for an allowance of €1,000.

The incident in which the two gardai and the reservist, a retired London Metropolitan Police inspector, apprehended the two men happened in Coolock in January 2009. The gardai and reservists spotted two men acting suspiciously in a car and when they confronted them they found the front-seat passenger was armed with a handgun, which later turned out to be loaded. The gunman and passenger, who both violently resisted arrest, were later jailed.

Colleagues say that the reservist played a full role in the apprehension of the armed man and his accomplice but was unaware that the two gardai, Brian Dromey and Killian Barry, were being awarded bronze Scott medals for bravery at the annual awards ceremony in Templemore Garda College last November.

The reservist, who is in his 50s and who moved to Dublin after retiring from the Met force, had been stationed in Coolock at the time where his experience as an inspector in some of the toughest parts of London was said to have been of considerable assistance to young and trainee gardai, as well as other reservists. He has since moved to another Dublin suburban station.

One of his reserve colleagues said: "He wasn't even told the two gardai were getting awards. I'm sure he would have been glad for them but he took a full part in that arrest. It was a dangerous situation but he served in rough parts of London and knew what to do. A lot of us in the Reserve were upset about it. It is a bit of a slap in the face.

"We don't know if there are arrangements for reservists to receive awards. We asked but were told no one was clear on it. We are sworn members of the Garda Siochana so we don't see why we shouldn't be awarded for bravery."

WilcoOut

absolutely charming that is

mcko

Bloody disgrace, I sure the the gunman would not have discriminated between shooting a Reserve Garda or a full time Garda, if the two guys who got the Scott Medals had any pride they should refuse to accept the award till their reserve member gets an award as well. Shame on them, and shame on full time Gardai if they allow this to happen.

Tyron Jara

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-reserve-member-nominated-for-scott-medal-134102.html

Is this the same gardai???

redsurfer

Yes

eoinkildare

This is a bull**** story. Independent has it all wrong. Reserve wasn't in the car, he was just in one of the many many other cars that assisted on the night. Also, he was a special constable in England, not an inspector...

Surely everyone knows at this stage not to believe everything they read in the papers?
Eoin

Liamos Dubs

Don't know anything about the case but it would appear a reservist was nominated but didn't receive any award.

Are reservists considered members of AGS ? Not trying to start a fight but under the terms of the award scheme its not an civilian award so is there a technicality that wasn't envisaged.

I know a student garda won one and was only awarded it a year or two later when they ammended some rules to allow it.

King Ludvig

Reserve Gardaí are considered members, Garda Reserve being their rank. A student garda/student reserve is not a member until attestation. A reserve can receive the scotts medal. I don't know the facts of the above scenerio so I wont's say he should/should not have recieved the medal, however, if he was excluded simply because of his rank I'm sure full timers and reservists alike would consider that completely wrong and unfair.

There is only one GR so far to have received a commendation for bravery, a young man in his late 20's who faced down a man with a firearm which later turned out to be an imitation firearm.

WilcoOut

King Ludvig wrote: »

Reserve Gardaí are considered IN FACT members, Garda Reserve being their rank..

corrected

SB2013

eoinkildare wrote: »

This is a bull**** story. Independent has it all wrong. Reserve wasn't in the car, he was just in one of the many many other cars that assisted on the night. Also, he was a special constable in England, not an inspector...

Surely everyone knows at this stage not to believe everything they read in the papers?
Eoin

I generally find that if it's a story about Gardaí in the Indo it should be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm sure we all remember theie story about Gardaí having 174 days annual leave under the new rosters.

Liamos Dubs

King Ludvig wrote: »

Reserve Gardaí are considered members

Are they really though?

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

official identification says so

garda siochana act 2005 says so

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda

from: http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=19&Lang=1

msg11

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

Yes. Members of AGS under the AGS Act 2005 section 15.

'(3) Subject to subsection (5), a reserve member has, while on duty, the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person appointed under section 14 to the rank of garda.'

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0015.html#sec15

Tyron Jara

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Are they really though?

YES!! we are members if only part time members. One thing I find funny in that article is how there portraying how the reserve force is outraged. I didnt even hear about it till I read it and I was like hey im a reserve how the hell do they know what we think.We never got asked?

Theres more to that story that meets the eye.

Liamos Dubs

msg11 wrote: »

Yes. Members of AGS under the AGS Act 2005 section 15.

'(3) Subject to subsection (5), a reserve member has, while on duty, the same powers, immunities, privileges and duties as a person appointed under section 14 to the rank of garda.'

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0015.html#sec15

Powers = Nil.

Ye hardly want a medal for watching other people work.:)

Only havin a laugh don't get offended.

Management have left it that the station cleaner is valued more than reservists.

J K

Medals are a load of cr@p anyway. I'm sure they would all of preferred a fifty euro bonus in their next pay cheque.

Medals and commendations originated in military traditions where they wanted to encourage sacrificial bravery in the troops. Cheap piece of metal to buy life.


"Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in deserving them"
Aristotle

King Ludvig

Borderline trolling from Liamos Dubs there. The debate as to "is a reserve a member?"/"do they have any powers?" has been done to death.

Lets not derail this topic. Consult the legislation for an answer to your questions, namely section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005.

Liamos Dubs

King Ludvig wrote: »

Borderline trolling from Liamos Dubs there.

No trolling here I was being humorous. If you don't have a sense of humour and can't take a bit of good natured slagging maybe this isn't the career for you.

King Ludvig wrote: »

Lets not derail this topic. Consult the legislation for an answer to your questions, namely section 15 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005.

You continued to quote Section 15 GSA 2005. Subsection 5 clearly places the provisio that you have no powers unless Number One says so.

The Scott Medal award Commitee's, which I may know a little more about than you, had to amend regulations and the Code to allow a full member be awarded a Scott medal for an incident he was involved while a student Garda. This took a while as Scott Medals aren't handed out like confetti.

So my non trolling point stands, most of management who decide upon these things, do not consider Reservists as "members". Many reserves only appear to be coming to realisation with the numbers that continually resign.

I don't know the ins and outs of this reservists case. But clearly he was nominated, not cited and someone was irked enough to go to the press.

You may dislike me for saying that but my point is genuine. It would be interesting to note if Divisional Award Committees have handed out many commends to reservists. This is local management decision making.

The Park appears to pay lip service to the reserve force as it politically has to. All indications to date would lead one to believe that they see it as an irritation.

I'm not trolling or trying to re do the whole reserve debate, which has been done to death, I giving an honest opinion to the question asked as to why this reservist wasn't given a Scott Medal. Now I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities.

msg11

Liam I understand your only joking in some senses. But I have to correct you before we have people thinking the reserves have no powers. There are powers there they can use, not big powers but powers all the same and they can arrest under the Criminal Law Act section 4(3) (members of the public can use 4(2)) and a few RTA powers so they have powers.

As for management not noticing them as members, I doubt they even half think about the reserves at all so I would agree.

Some members are not even sure what we are about. But what should matter is I am 100% behind the member/s I go out with no matter what the situation calls. I rather not been seen as some child, I am an adult and can handle myself if you get me.

The reserves are only new, even at 20 years they will still be only new. The only way I can see the reserves earning a bit of 'respect' as you put it is when full time members start at the rank of reserve if that makes any sense.

Hardly think anyone signs up to get medals but it would be nice but the respect as you put it around the station would be even nicer!

Also can I say one other thing Liam , if you are a full time member and notice these problems with the reserves why is someone not raising the issue with management then?

IMO also the reason for some many in the reserve dropping out is they might have though it would fast track recruitment when it started going on now 5/6 years into it which some people are this has not started and they are pulling out as there reason for joining is different than others who are staying on. Myself, its a mix of both. I would like a job in the long term but also enjoy police work so a few hours a week I can't see as a big deal.

King Ludvig

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Powers = Nil.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

You continued to quote Section 15 GSA 2005. Subsection 5 clearly places the provisio that you have no powers unless Number One says so.

You are slightly off. Subsection 3 states that reserve members have the same powers as a full time Garda. Subsection 5 allows the Commissioner to release or limit these powers. So far, the Commissioner has conferred upon reserves the most common power of arrest used by Gardaí (section 4(3)) along with some minor road traffic powers. Public order powers are next in line to be given, I believe. That's it. No more, no less. I don't know how so much debate can be dragged out of the above because it is publically available information and is available from numerous sources in black and white.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

The Scott Medal award Commitee's, which I may know a little more about than you, had to amend regulations and the Code to allow a full member be awarded a Scott medal for an incident he was involved while a student Garda. This took a while as Scott Medals aren't handed out like confetti.

I'd imagine the issue with the student Garda was that he was not yet sworn in as a member at the time of the incident?

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

So my non trolling point stands, most of management who decide upon these things, do not consider Reservists as "members". Many reserves only appear to be coming to realisation with the numbers that continually resign.

I don't know the ins and outs of this reservists case. But clearly he was nominated, not cited and someone was irked enough to go to the press.

You may dislike me for saying that but my point is genuine. It would be interesting to note if Divisional Award Committees have handed out many commends to reservists. This is local management decision making.

The Park appears to pay lip service to the reserve force as it politically has to. All indications to date would lead one to believe that they see it as an irritation.

I'm not trolling or trying to re do the whole reserve debate, which has been done to death, I giving an honest opinion to the question asked as to why this reservist wasn't given a Scott Medal. Now I apologise if I have offended your sensibilities.

I didn't challenge this part of your arguement and would be inclined to agree with most of it.

Liamos Dubs

msg11 wrote: »

Liam I understand your only joking in some senses. But I have to correct you before we have people thinking the reserves have no powers. There are powers there they can use, not big powers but powers all the same and they can arrest under the Criminal Law Act section 4(3) (members of the public can use 4(2)) and a few RTA powers so they have powers.

Which is effectively useless as the reserve member must be accompanied and Section 4(5) would see the arrested person transferred into the custody of a full member. Garda Reserve has no standing to institute proceedings in the name of the DPP.

The power to effect an arrest for an arrestable offence is effectively the same power any citizen has.

As the powers under road traffic act are only applicable when accompanied by a full member they are in the words of Brendan Grace 'Like a lighthouse in the Bog of Allen brilliant yet useless".


I'm not going to dance around legislation. The GR was foisted upon AGS by politicians. They're major set piece in the fight on Gangland crime was to introduce and part time/ unpaid force. Management has in true Irish fashion acknowledged that they had to introduce it but left it as a lame duck with no effective role or powers

I don't doubt the enthusiasm, good intentions or desire to serve that exists within reservists not for a minute. No one was born in the uniform, we were all eager to join and do our bit. No one has a monopoly in this regard and when i jokingly slag off the reserve its not the individuals its the structure that was brought in. The reserve was brought in on a political whim and as a result frontline members and management view the structure in a very jaundiced manner.


Gardai felt insulted as British police did with PCSO's, we wouldn't have reserve teachers, doctors or paramedics with such minimal training.

Sergeant's and Inspectors felt more pressure and responsibility were being put upon them and quietly District and Divisional Officers were pissed off that they were told to include reservist in Divisional/District strengths.

msg11 wrote: »

The reserves are only new, even at 20 years they will still be only new. The only way I can see the reserves earning a bit of 'respect' as you put it is when full time members start at the rank of reserve if that makes any sense.

No it will be viewed as a cheap way of recruiting, prior to full time recruitment they get you to jump through hoops prior to deciding if they want you or not.

If as many of the GR see it a path to full time recruitment what if the powers that be decided why loose a reserve we have for free and decide to get someone else in. How many would stay in the reserve then, i know there is a number who don't wish to be full time but the age demographic indicates there is a sizable number that do.

msg11 wrote: »

Also can I say one other thing Liam , if you are a full time member and notice these problems with the reserves why is someone not raising the issue with management then?

Raise it with management Jaysus was I that naive. Turkeys don't vote for christmas !

I have sat in meetings where the reserve has come up and senior officers have rolled their eyes to heaven. Can you blame them, planning operations and whether you have a person who is available for a couple of hours at the weekend and has to be accompanied by a full time member is not high on their priorities. They pay it lip service and are mistrusting of whole thing.


I don't want to pull the thread away from the original point. I still maintain this guy may not have been considered for an award due to being viewed as not a member, however wrong that may be.

Anyway I better tow the line i don't want some of the reserve mods to call a full time mod and get me banned..........:rolleyes: I'll get my coat.

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

official identification says so

garda siochana act 2005 says so

Garda rank structure in descending order

Commissioner
Deputy Commissioner
Assistant Commissioner
Chief Superintendent
Superintendent
Inspector
Sergeant
Garda
Reserve Garda

from: http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=19&Lang=1

When they start recuiting again student garda will slot in above reserve garda as before.

Tyron Jara

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

When they start recuiting again student garda will slot in above reserve garda as before.

Student garda isnt a rank so it wont slot in anywhere. However you can be damn sure theyll be giving priority over a reserve and thats the way it should be.

Pappa Charlie

Tyron Jara wrote: »

Student garda isnt a rank so it wont slot in anywhere. However you can be damn sure theyll be giving priority over a reserve and thats the way it should be.

If that's the case you have to leave a rank to go to a non rank to get to the rank of garda, it dosent make sense! It makes a joke of the reserve IMO. In my time we had a lecture on the rank structure and student garda was on the same list as the reserve is now at the end of the list. Paper never refused ink I guess

WilcoOut

the fact that they would rank an attested reserve member beneath a uniformed civilian speaks volumns

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

the fact that they would rank an attested reserve member beneath a uniformed civilian speaks volumns

The student garda will be committing to a full time career in the force having met and passed the requirements for a full time position and will be in a full time training programme, I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

goldie fish

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The student garda will be committing to a full time career in the force having met and passed the requirements for a full time position and will be in a full time training programme, I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

A student garda is still a civilian till attestation and nothing is guaranteed. Plenty fail to make the grade, 3 of my intake committed crimes before being attested and progressed no further. They were not dismissed as you can't dismiss a civilian.

WilcoOut

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I personally would rank them above reserves but that's just me!

thats an unfortunate perspective

Pappa Charlie

goldie fish wrote: »

A student garda is still a civilian till attestation and nothing is guaranteed. Plenty fail to make the grade, 3 of my intake committed crimes before being attested and progressed no further. They were not dismissed as you can't dismiss a civilian.

An attested reserve or member can also commit a crime and get kicked out and many have,I see no great difference, being dismissed or kicked out is the same as you end up without a career in AGS. I think the student garda would have far more to lose than a part time largely unpaid reserve in the long run!

WilcoOut

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

An attested reserve or member can also commit a crime and get kicked out and many have,I see no great difference, being dismissed or kicked out is the same as you end up without a career in AGS. I think the student garda would have far more to lose than a part time largely unpaid reserve in the long run!

its not about it the long run, its about the present

an attested reserve is a MEMBER

a student garda is not

although they will be in the future, for the duration of their training they are not attested members

i dont know what more to say - stick the reserves at the bottom if you will

save the best till last

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

thats an unfortunate perspective

Perception is reality though isn't it.

The point of whether a GR is a rank or not is illustrated by the fact you would have to enter at the starting point of student Garda to begin a full time career. So if a student Garda is 0 point does Garda reserve mean your at -1.


If you think the GR have it bad the PSO's get a right slagging from the inside and outside. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYxkZ9jTvk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTslawkcYk

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Perception is reality though isn't it.

not really

your philosophy is obviously as good as your maths

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

its not about it the long run, its about the present

an attested reserve is a MEMBER

a student garda is not

although they will be in the future, for the duration of their training they are not attested members

i dont know what more to say - stick the reserves at the bottom if you will

save the best till last

I will so, thanks

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

not really

your philosophy is obviously as good as your maths

My maths has me and 15 years service how's yours doing.

Just cause you have a badge and uniform doesn't make you a member of the force. I have friend with a t shirt Federal Boob Inspector .......I have funny feeling he isn't really one though, well not on a full time basis anyway.

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

My maths has me and 15 years service how's yours doing.

Hows your English while we're at it!?

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Just cause you have a badge and uniform doesn't make you a member of the force.

You should launch a nationwide operation to charge all 1100 reserve gardai for impersonation so

ill give you a hint

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0060.html

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

I have friend with a t shirt Federal Boob Inspector .......I have funny feeling he isn't really one though, well not on a full time basis anyway.

he needs to get a life and you need to get some normal friends

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

Hows your English while we're at it!?



You should launch a nationwide operation to charge all 1100 reserve gardai for impersonation so

ill give you a hint

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0060.html



he needs to get a life and you need to get some normal friends

Maybe his friend has a great life coupled with a sense of humour, bitterness will eat you up, let it go

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

Hows your English while we're at it!?



You should launch a nationwide operation to charge all 1100 reserve gardai for impersonation so

ill give you a hint

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/sec0060.html



he needs to get a life and you need to get some normal friends

I love the way you quote law .... a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Those crazy kids in Templemore filling your head with wild notions. As I previously stated as Reservist has no standing to institute proceedings in the name of the DPP and I doubt they would have a right of audience in the District Court. (Hint look up the Criminal Procedure Act and the District Court Rules you won't find it in the GSA 2005 which reservist seem to hold so dearly).

If the kids dressed up as a Garda for Halloween I'd use my discretion so the reservists needn't worry yet;).

Any way impersonation would imply that you would actually did something rather than stand and watch someone else do it.

By the by the FBI was a humours and witty analogy on my behalf, the sharp response would indicate that you also wish as Cartman would put it to "Obey my authority"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

I love the way you quote law .... a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Those crazy kids in Templemore filling your head with wild notions.

I lost all my 3rd level legal knowledge in templemore when they inserted the chip, your dead right

15 years of a head filled with wild notions, ya poor divil!

iv tried to educate you on the rank structure. Its a pity with such service you dont know it by now.

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

I lost all my 3rd level legal knowledge in templemore when they inserted the chip, your dead right

15 years of a head filled with wild notions, ya poor divil!

iv tried to educate you on the rank structure. Its a pity with such service you dont know it by now.

I'm not going to get personal with you its pointless.

Your naivety regarding AGS shows your level of life experience. I have third level qualifications but I give them their due worth they are only pieces of paper at the end of the day. When dealing with people they couldn't give a damn if you got 10/10 in your 3rd class spelling test or if you have a masters from trinity.

You quote law a stamp your foot demanding acknowledgement that a reserve is a rank in AGS. Practically and in reality it isn't.

The original point I was making on this thread is not to bash the motivations of individual reservists but why one reservist was not considered for an award was because as I put it he was considered a member of the force.

In managements head they don't consider reservist members. I put it to you this way in the morning if every reservist resigned what would happen.......nothing. That not an insult its reality. The Courts would be as busy, the prisons as full and calls from the public answered.


If you can't see the GR was a political smokescreen when it was created and that you and other reservist are being taken for a ride well then as you put it maybe you can't "educate" me.

No reservists have been able to answer any of the legitimate points I made. No reservist can arrest and prosecute any offence on their own the most basic function expected of any law enforcement official.

Your inability to accept humour and good natured banter further leads me to believe that this may not be the career path for you. But don't worry you always have the third level experience to fall back upon .....Big mac and fires please;)

WilcoOut

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

You quote law a stamp your foot demanding acknowledgement that a reserve is a rank in AGS. Practically and in reality it isn't.

The original point I was making on this thread is not to bash the motivations

In managements head they don't consider reservist members.

practically and in reality it is a rank within AGS

youve been given plenty of evidence to prove it

you know......evidence.........


i dont care whether management, the GRA, normal mules or even the god damn pope consider reservists members. the law indicates that we are

you know......the law......


and as for the big mac and fries jab - its fantastic that you view a member of our community who works in a fastfood restaurant as below you........

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

and as for the big mac and fries jab - its fantastic that you view a member of our community who works in a fastfood restaurant as below you........

Hey I showed no disrespect to fast food workers man, I've been in part time work too. I respect them and at 3am on the Sunday of a week of night I loved fast food workers. That jab was at your "third level experience". Try to keep up.

You have answered none of my points again.;)


And your evidence is a piece of legislation enacted by a political hack that has been ignored by every sector of the job. Law is not black and white just various shades of grey, has to be acted upon and interpreted. Remember ASBO's just like the reserve ......waste of time.

WilcoOut

yes my evidence is legislation enacted by the houses of the oireachtas.............

ignored by every sector of the job?

the job ignores legislation? the government? The constitution? the people?

what job!?

the mind boggles

Pappa Charlie

WilcoOut wrote: »

practically and in reality it is a rank within AGS

youve been given plenty of evidence to prove it

you know......evidence.........


i dont care whether management, the GRA, normal mules or even the god damn pope consider reservists members. the law indicates that we are

you know......the law......


and as for the big mac and fries jab - its fantastic that you view a member of our community who works in a fastfood restaurant as below you........

A bit ironic when the basis of your arguement is to prove student gardai accepted into a full time force are below you a part time reserve. You can thank Michael McDowell that he saw it as a good idea as a former FCA man, they may tell you in the college you are a rank and talk up the reserve but the vast majority of serving gardai see it as a waste of valuable resources! I personally see some merit in it but I hate to work with anyone of any rank who tries to act a rank above themselves with collegues without having achieved it!

Liamos Dubs

WilcoOut wrote: »

yes my evidence is legislation enacted by the houses of the oireachtas.............

ignored by every sector of the job?

the job ignores legislation? the government? The constitution? the people?

How long have you lived in Ireland ?? Sure members of the oireachtas ignore most of what they enacted.

WilcoOut wrote: »

what job!?

Er the one you claim to have a rank in ..... have we not just been discussing it. Come on that's twice you've failed to keep up.

WilcoOut wrote: »

the mind boggles

Well your "evidence" must have stretched your mental resources.


I don't want to upset you anymore. I'll leave you on this all members value the GR contribution of watching us work. The next day your "working" when you've finished making the Sergeants tea and are asked to stand at a barrier at some event remember that you are needed there as an extra fluorescent jacket, perception of no effectiveness just perception.

SB2013

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

I don't want to upset you anymore. I'll leave you on this all members value the GR contribution of watching us work. The next day your "working" when you've finished making the Sergeants tea and are asked to stand at a barrier at some event remember that you are needed there as an extra fluorescent jacket, perception of no effectiveness just perception.

That's a fairly poor attitude. Personally I've worked with reserves who have contributed more to the job than some of the boys with 15 years service. I've also worked with some useless ones. It's unfortunate that management have decided to misuse them and that some members won't accept the benefit of having them around but I won't be blaming the reserves on that.

Liamos Dubs

SB2013 wrote: »

That's a fairly poor attitude. Personally I've worked with reserves who have contributed more to the job than some of the boys with 15 years service. I've also worked with some useless ones.

Again a humorous opinion but its my belief about the GR institution not the quality of the individuals . Check my earlier posst I don't doubt the quality of the individuals. I agree that service and rank is no bar to incompetence.

SB2013 wrote: »

It's unfortunate that management have decided to misuse them and that some members won't accept the benefit of having them around but I won't be blaming the reserves on that.

What is the benefit? Genuinely.

You can give me a scenario of being on patrol on your own isn't better to have reserve with you, well thats just feeding the perception that there are two members on patrol, you be better off advocating for recruitment and having a full member with you. Policing on the cheap for political gain, not for the benefit of the individuals or the community.

Do members not have the right to voice concern at the eroding of their profession and the conditions of employment? The vast majority of the job have decided to effectively treat the Reserve as the political football it is and to let the air out of it slowly.

Reserves are currently counted on station/district strength, by political direction, talk about massaging figures. How can a part timer with effectively no powers be counted the same as a full time member.

If you think a few weekends training, badge and a yellow jacket makes a policeman than you have lower opinion of your profession than the politicians who enacted the reserve. Would people accept reserve teachers, doctors or paramedics with such minimal training. Not a chance. Remember McDowell used it as his initiative to fight serious and organised crime. With all the best will in the world to the well intentioned people who signed up only in Ireland would this be considered an effective policing response to serious crime.

SB2013

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Again a humorous opinion but its my belief about the GR institution not the quality of the individuals . Check my earlier posst I don't doubt the quality of the individuals. I agree that service and rank is no bar to incompetence.




What is the benefit? Genuinely.

You can give me a scenario of being on patrol on your own isn't better to have reserve with you, well thats just feeding the perception that there are two members on patrol, you be better off advocating for recruitment and having a full member with you. Policing on the cheap for political gain, not for the benefit of the individuals or the community.

Do members not have the right to voice concern at the eroding of their profession and the conditions of employment? The vast majority of the job have decided to effectively treat the Reserve as the political football it is and to let the air out of it slowly.

Reserves are currently counted on station/district strength, by political direction, talk about massaging figures. How can a part timer with effectively no powers be counted the same as a full time member.

If you think a few weekends training, badge and a yellow jacket makes a policeman than you have lower opinion of your profession than the politicians who enacted the reserve. Would people accept reserve teachers, doctors or paramedics with such minimal training. Not a chance. Remember McDowell used it as his initiative to fight serious and organised crime. With all the best will in the world to the well intentioned people who signed up only in Ireland would this be considered an effective policing response to serious crime.

If you are going to a row you ar better to have a third man in the back of the car than just two of you. If you are trying to take care of a load of prisoners it's nice to have an extra person manning the station.

And members do have the right to ecpress concerns. But that is not you are doing. You are just being insulting.

Liamos Dubs

SB2013 wrote: »

If you are going to a row you ar better to have a third man in the back of the car than just two of you. If you are trying to take care of a load of prisoners it's nice to have an extra person manning the station.

Logically yes but as a long term policing policy short sighted. You would be as well of having a third member with you, my point is, recruit, train, equip and deploy a fully operational member. The reserve is recruitment and policing on the cheap. You don't need an economics degree to see why the politicians think its wonderful.

Along with most posters you haven't countered any of the points I've made about the Garda Reserve.

SB2013 wrote: »

And members do have the right to ecpress concerns. But that is not you are doing. You are just being insulting.

Show me one post where I've insulted anyone. This is a forum for debate and opinion, I've try to do it with humour and been met with indignation from some and threats of trolling by others. Imagine expressing an opinion on a forum for debate...it will never catch on. Calling any of the opinions I've expressed an insult is way off the mark and a way of not countering any of the points I've made.

I've said over and over again I'm not going for the individuals I'm having a pop at the institution. Hopefully some of the good potential recruits within the reserve may get at chance to join properly. If anyone should feel insulted its reserve members and the community who had been sold a pup by politicians.

I've said it again and again is there reserve doctors, paramedics or teachers deployed with minimum training ? Would those professions accept it or would the public be happy. If your answer is yes there isn't anything more I can say to you.

I've more than said my piece on this thread, (some would say too much) agree to disagree with me if you want. Most of the points I've made have gone unanswered. The reserve is what it is and those who are honest know it too.

SB2013

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Logically yes but as a long term policing policy short sighted. You would be as well of having a third member with you, my point is, recruit, train, equip and deploy a fully operational member. The reserve is recruitment and policing on the cheap. You don't need an economics degree to see why the politicians think its wonderful.

Along with most posters you haven't countered any of the points I've made about the Garda Reserve.

Logically? No. In actual reality, having an extra man is a great aid. And it is an extra man, not a replacement. There aren't three Gardaí assigned to patrol cars, there are generally two. The reserve will always be an extra member in such a case. And the extra man in the station for a few hours is always an assistance, something you would not have otherwise. Having that reserve with you on a post when you might otherwise be alone makes things much less boring.

I haven't been trying to counter your points, I took issue with your poor attitude towards people you work with.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Show me one post where I've insulted anyone. This is a forum for debate and opinion, I've try to do it with humour and been met with indignation from some and threats of trolling by others. Imagine expressing an opinion on a forum for debate...it will never catch on. Calling any of the opinions I've expressed an insult is way off the mark and a way of not countering any of the points I've made.

I've said over and over again I'm not going for the individuals I'm having a pop at the institution. Hopefully some of the good potential recruits within the reserve may get at chance to join properly. If anyone should feel insulted its reserve members and the community who had been sold a pup by politicians.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Ye hardly want a medal for watching other people work.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

Any way impersonation would imply that you would actually did something rather than stand and watch someone else do it.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

I'll leave you on this all members value the GR contribution of watching us work.

The first time you tried to pass it off as humour. You didn't bother the second and third time. Your opinion clearly extends to individuals and not just the structure.

Liamos Dubs wrote: »

I've said it again and again is there reserve doctors, paramedics or teachers deployed with minimum training ? Would those professions accept it or would the public be happy. If your answer is yes there isn't anything more I can say to you.

I've more than said my piece on this thread, (some would say too much) agree to disagree with me if you want. Most of the points I've made have gone unanswered. The reserve is what it is and those who are honest know it too.

I can't see the issue with introducing reservist type positions in other jobs. Volunteer drivers for ambulances so both paramedics could be with a patient. In fact, aren't the blood bikes already run by volunteers? Teaching assistants to help with correcting and examinations.

There are some very useful reserves out there. Members who don't give them a chance won't know this though and it seems you fall into that category. Nobody denies they are being misused by management but that doesn't negate their benefit.

bluetop

Retained fire fighters are PT dont see the FT there having a problem, the defense forces also have PT and FT working along side each other, in Ireland now you have almost all types of people volunteering their services, in wicklow you have volunteer medics, as has been said you now have volunteer Riders delivering Blood and and other products to hospitals.

The biggest problem is the older FT cant except change its not in their remit, when new FT members comes to a station they embrace the Reserve members, i have first hand knowledge of this "why" because reserves where there when they arrived so they know no different, so as new recruits come along the integration of reserves will be better into the fold, they wont just be seen as reserves but as a second or third member on the beat or in the mobile just the way it should be.

Instead of been against the concept why not embrace it and except its not going anywhere regardless of powers or status.

Remember its not the fault of the Reserves they dont have full powers or the training needed, its the fault of the GRA who would not except the concept and badgered their way to make sure the reserves are where they are today, if FT want to help the RG then speak to your GRA rep and get them what they so urgently need CPD classes, the reserves have tried this and met a wall, so instead of knocking them try helping them.gl

WilcoOut

and dont forget the RNLI boys aswell

this country was fought for and founded by volunteers, and volunteerism has been a part of the Irish Spirit and Culture for decades


you keep claiming to be making humorous posts but nobody is finding you funny

everyone is well aware of the shortcomings of the reserve concept and as a Gr i would agree with you. but how dare you insult any man or woman who gives up their time to police their community. take your frustrations out on your superiors and political masters, if you have the balls. its very easy to post on an anonymous forum insulting the part timers

why dont you work constructively with the GRs, teach them how to be better officers, how to contribute more and be infinitly more effective with the scope of their powers/duties

the GR is contributing thousands of community policing hours for a minimum cost and in this current climate should be applauded and embraced

GRs dont take anyones place or wage. the show goes on regardless of whether a GR is in or not. if theyre in, they supplement the regular lads - they do not replace

iv yet to see a mule sent home because the GR turned up so you argument is null