Free Staters? Term of Abuse?

zmccomish

It has been said that referring to someone from the Republic ,especially coming from a person from Nth. Ireland , is a term of abuse.Is it? Any if so why?

Victor

The Free State ended how long ago?

jonniebgood1

zmccomish wrote: »

It has been said that referring to someone from the Republic ,especially coming from a person from Nth. Ireland , is a term of abuse.Is it? Any if so why?

It has been used by some of the more small minded of northern politicians as a term of derision for the Republic of Ireland. It would seem to be based upon some type of unnacceptance that Ireland is an independent country. Untill Ireland was declared as a Republic it was known as the Irish free state until 1937, the implied reference being that the free state was a dominion of the UK. I would not find it abusive, rather it is a reflection on the intellect and mindset of the person who uses this description.

Dr. Nooooo!

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

Cedrus

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

I've never heard of this interpretation, it doesn't even make sense. I would tend to agree more with jonniebgood1s synopsis.

TBH your summary is madder than the equally specious description of "Fine Gaelers" as Blueshirts.

Deedsie

I always thought the term free stater was used by the Irish living in Northern Ireland after the 77 TD's in The Dáil voted to abandon the boundary commission and thus, abandon the Irish in Northern Ireland to life in a unionist dominated nightmare. Some of the descendants of these abandoned nationalist Irish people continue the tradition to this day!

Madam

I suppose this song sort of emphasis what its all about - the winners can and do change history:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiTrGDyGgOw

Coles

Cedrus wrote: »

I've never heard of this interpretation, it doesn't even make sense. I would tend to agree more with jonniebgood1s synopsis.

TBH your summary is madder than the equally specious description of "Fine Gaelers" as Blueshirts.

You're wrong on both counts.

A "Free Stater" was someone who supported the partition of Ireland.

A "Blueshirt" is a term for a supporter of FG. Their history haunts them.

jonniebgood1

Coles wrote: »

You're wrong on both counts.

A "Free Stater" was someone who supported the partition of Ireland.

A "Blueshirt" is a term for a supporter of FG. Their history haunts them.

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

Coles

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

It's used in a jocular way to describe ALL supporters of FG. Wasn't very funny back in the 1930's though...

Seanchai

Victor wrote: »

The Free State ended how long ago?

According to Alan Shatter on Morning Ireland last week, in an embarrassingly uncritical interview by Rachel English, the Free State was certainly in existence between 1939 and 1945.

Alan Shatter: never conceited; always intellectually vigorous and factually correct.

Seanchai

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Blueshirt is not simply 'a term for' FG supporters. It is a derisory description from their flirtation with right wing politics.

Are you sure this happened? I heard the Fine Gael minister Mr Shatter last week and you'd swear Fine Gaelers weren't fighting on the Nazi-supported side in the Spanish Civil War trying to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Spain. Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!), Fine Gael wants to engage in historical revisionism on the same issue (not to mention the entire party's support for neutrality during WW II, after James Dillon resigned in 1942)

PS: As far as I understand the use of the word 'Blueshirts' in Irish society today, it's a general term for people who support Fine Gael, often used by Fine Gaelers themselves.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Such an insult would be completely lost on 99% of the population under the age of thirty.Thankfully.

jonniebgood1

From last link maybe they do use it themselves. It begs the question do they not actually know where the term comes from. For example if I were to follow a party I would prefer not to be named after something like this!

Victor

Of course, the Blue Shirts and Fine Gael never existed at the same time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

Cedrus

Seanchai wrote: »

Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!),.

Are you sure???????????

Conmaicne Mara

Passive aggressive nonsense from those who went through bombings, shootings, british army security etc. As a citizen of the republic of Ireland, not my problem, most of them are only delighted to take from the british state and not be part of the Irish recession. Jog on is my response, your troubles aren't mine.

Snickers Man

When I was growing up in Norn Iron, the "Free State" referred to the geographical entity that a doctrinaire republican would still to this day call "the 26 counties".

Free Staters were all people haling from or residing in that territory.

There was also a slight negative connotation, implying that the "Free Staters" were all complicit in abandoning the minority in the North to Unionisit rule, but that would be levelled at all parties who recognised in and participated in the governance of the "26 Counties" including Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and Labour.

Seanchai

Cedrus wrote: »

Are you sure???????????

Absolutely certain.









































































Not to mention the embarrassing photos

Cedrus

Seanchai wrote: »

Like the Royal British Legion which raised volunteers to fight for Nazi Germany in 1938(!!),

Cedrus wrote: »

Are you sure???????????

Seanchai wrote: »

Absolutely certain.

So in the winter of 1938,17,000 WW1 veterans applied for 1200 police jobs in Czechoslovakia (mass unemployment anyone?) a year before WW2, the 1200 were mobliised and disbanded in 8 days without leaving london.

A bit of a blind alley you led us up there.

The picture in the middle of the second row with Hitler and Fetherston-Godley the legion chairman is actually from the summer of 1935, nothing to do with the volunteer force.

Deedsie

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Passive aggressive nonsense from those who went through bombings, shootings, british army security etc. As a citizen of the republic of Ireland, not my problem, most of them are only delighted to take from the british state and not be part of the Irish recession. Jog on is my response, your troubles aren't mine.

= Free Stater

Terrible calibre of person with no sympathy for fellow Irish people with no option but to take from the British state, I am sure a lot of them would prefer to be contributing to a independent All island Irish state. Irish people in this part of Ireland took from the British up to 1921. Irish people in this part of Ireland were only too happy to take a loan from the British government two years ago.

"Free staters" also have a habit of accusing anyone from the RoI who does sympathize with Northern Ireland nationalists as shinners.

And any nationalists/republicans as less Irish than they are for being born or descended from people born in the wrong county.

Conmaicne Mara

Deedsie wrote: »

= Free Stater

Terrible calibre of person with no sympathy for fellow Irish people with no option but to take from the British state, I am sure a lot of them would prefer to be contributing to a independent All island Irish state. Irish people in this part of Ireland took from the British up to 1921. Irish people in this part of Ireland were only too happy to take a loan from the British government two years ago.

"Free staters" also have a habit of accusing anyone from the RoI who does sympathize with Northern Ireland nationalists as shinners.

And any nationalists/republicans as less Irish than they are for being born or descended from people born in the wrong county.

Yes I'm sure they would, and that they can't is obviously good enough reason to revert to name calling against people getting on with their own lives. An extremely mature and productive strategy sure to win friends and influence people.

gobnaitolunacy

Heard of Irish Army guys around Drogheda being derided as 'Free Staters' in the 70's alright.

Tordelback

Surely 'Free Stater' has its origins in derogatory post-Civil War description of the Pro-treaty forces, supporters and ultimately government? i.e. those willing to settle for a 26 county Free State 'Dominion', rather than a 32 County Republic?

Coles

Victor wrote: »

Of course, the Blue Shirts and Fine Gael never existed at the same time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts

That's because the Blueshirts were banned and they then became Fine Gael. Eoin O'Duffy was the leader of the Blueshirts and then he founded Fine Gael and became the leader of that organisation. Everyone who joined FG at the time knew exactly who they were in bed with.

Gott

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

A free stater is generally used to refer to someone who is partitionist minded, ie they dont think people from the north are Irish, they dont care about them and happily ignored what went on and concentrated on the 26 county state, traditionally used to refer to Fine Gaelers in particular. Ie they supported the free state and the abandonment of those in the six counties.

I'd be more familiar with this version actually, some people from Armagh were down at the Fleadh last year and set up shop in one of the sanctioned camps. When they were politely asked to dial down the whole 'f*ck the Queen' business they were singing by someone from Cork (who had English visitors with him, was camping nearby) he was told 'f*ck off Free Stater'.

I suppose it was born from the bitterness the northern Catholics had over being abandoned after the War of Independence, but you'd think they'd come up with an insult a bit more ... modern I guess.

Deedsie

Gott wrote: »

I'd be more familiar with this version actually, some people from Armagh were down at the Fleadh last year and set up shop in one of the sanctioned camps. When they were politely asked to dial down the whole 'f*ck the Queen' business they were singing by someone from Cork (who had English visitors with him, was camping nearby) he was told 'f*ck off Free Stater'.

I suppose it was born from the bitterness the northern Catholics had over being abandoned after the War of Independence, but you'd think they'd come up with an insult a bit more ... modern I guess.

I'd agree with the cork lad in this situation but its sort of understandable the resentment some of the Irish/Northern Irish/British Catholics living in Northern Ireland have towards the south who abandoned them, the PUL community who abused them, the British government which ignored them until it was too late.

This loosely knit group will soon be the majority in Northern Ireland. 2017 on current trends I believe. Perhaps the Irish government should start considering an attempt to warm relations with them? Not sure how, but no on can deny they were mistreated by all sides

jonniebgood1

Deedsie wrote: »

I'd agree with the cork lad in this situation but its sort of understandable the resentment some of the Irish/Northern Irish/British Catholics living in Northern Ireland have towards the south who abandoned them, the PUL community who abused them, the British government which ignored them until it was too late.

I don't see this as being 'understandable' in any way. Rather it shows their ignorance of the reality Irish history. Furthermore the example shown sounds more like an exert from something like Ibiza uncovered rather than a traditional Irish music festival.

Deedsie wrote: »

This loosely knit group will soon be the majority in Northern Ireland. 2017 on current trends I believe. Perhaps the Irish government should start considering an attempt to warm relations with them? Not sure how, but no on can deny they were mistreated by all sides

Are the Irish government not already on decent terms with NI nationalists? I believe so. The recent figures on the NI demographics were interesting in what they showed including the large percentage of both nationalists and unionists who feel an affinity for the state they currently live in, as opposed to nationalists feeling Irish or unionists feeling British.

Deedsie

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I don't see this as being 'understandable' in any way. Rather it shows their ignorance of the reality Irish history. Furthermore the example shown sounds more like an exert from something like Ibiza uncovered rather than a traditional Irish music festival.


Are the Irish government not already on decent terms with NI nationalists? I believe so. The recent figures on the NI demographics were interesting in what they showed including the large percentage of both nationalists and unionists who feel an affinity for the state they currently live in, as opposed to nationalists feeling Irish or unionists feeling British.

Just out of curiosity, where did they show their ignorance of Irish history. They showed they were a group of fools, rude and ignorant. Probably drunk. Dont see where they got the history terribly wrong.


Was there not an almost universal PUL selection of a British nationality, in some cases alongside Northern Irish? By state do you mean Northern Ireland or the UK?

Its great things are settling down a bit up there, but there are serious obstacles still to be passed. Flags, anthems, parades, protests at parades, to educate together or educate separately on the same site, dissidents, loyalist paramilitaries...

Hopefully one day they will get there and our government will have played a central role in facilitating a long overdue peace between the two communities. And one day maybe a United Ireland will become a possibility. a few generations of peace could work wonders.

jonniebgood1

Deedsie wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, where did they show their ignorance of Irish history. They showed they were a group of fools, rude and ignorant. Probably drunk. Dont see where they got the history terribly wrong.

Addressing someone as a 'free stater' because they did not join in a chorus as outlined above would seem that way to me. If that was correct I would say 99% of people would be classed as this.
You have described them as ignorant and given the 'free stater' comment there is a historical connotation so we are on same path.

Coles

Deedsie wrote: »

And one day maybe a United Ireland will become a possibility. a few generations of peace could work wonders.

There won't be a United Ireland until we create a proper secular Republic that respects all traditions while bowing to none. People both sides of the border need to stop allowing themselves to be divided along stupid sectarian lines. And we need to start electing proper politicians, not the usual tiny little gombeens who have no vision for the place.

Deedsie

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Addressing someone as a 'free stater' because they did not join in a chorus as outlined above would seem that way to me. If that was correct I would say 99% of people would be classed as this.
You have described them as ignorant and given the 'free stater' comment there is a historical connotation so we are on same path.

You're reaching there I think. They could have been members of an Armagh historical society on a session (please take this as a joke) and comments were made, and tempers flared. I don't think they were expecting people to join in the chorus. I think they took issue when the cork guy (rightly) complained.

Solair

It's more indicative of the person using it being stuck in a time warp from the early 20th century.

robp

Coles wrote: »

There won't be a United Ireland until we create a proper secular Republic that respects all traditions while bowing to none. People both sides of the border need to stop allowing themselves to be divided along stupid sectarian lines. And we need to start electing proper politicians, not the usual tiny little gombeens who have no vision for the place.

The peace process in the North has nothing whatsoever to do with secularisation civil or social in Ireland. Very few sectarian divisions in the 26 counties.

Deedsie

Solair wrote: »

It's more indicative of the person using it being stuck in a time warp from the early 20th century.

Blue shirts references stuck in the same place? It's not restricted to Northern Ireland. We are still suffering with pro and anti treaty politics and a civil war almost 100 years in the past.

Residual anger from the CNRNIB community will remain for a long time. I don't really blame them either.

captainzero

so how can referring to freedom as free be considered abusive?

Deedsie

captainzero wrote: »

so how can referring to freedom as free be considered abusive?

"Free staters" in their eyes another word for sell outs. Abandoned the wording of the proclamation and accepted a half arsed middle ground that left out the Irish living in the North East.

Solair

Deedsie wrote: »

"Free staters" in their eyes another word for sell outs. Abandoned the wording of the proclamation and accepted a half arsed middle ground that left out the Irish living in the North East.

The only time I hear 'the free state' being used these days tends to be by people from Northern Ireland though and it's almost always intended to be derogatory.

Deedsie

Solair wrote: »

The only time I hear 'the free state' being used these days tends to be by people from Northern Ireland though and it's almost always intended to be derogatory.

I know, hard to blame them for having grievances with us though PUL's and CNRNIB's communities both have very valid reasons for having grievances with the RoI! I don't blame them for making derogatory comments. And you would have to work pretty hard to actually be offended by the term free stater? Loyalists consider the term Fenian to be an insult, I would be happy to be categorised as a Fenian. I think there is a thing in Northern Ireland society, where everyone must be labelled to one group or another. People from the south are free staters, unionist/loyalist associate with Orange culture, Catholics Fenians or Taigs or chuckies etc...

Solair

I usually can't understand the accent anyway so the insults just go unnoticed.

Gott

Deedsie wrote: »

I know, hard to blame them for having grievances with us though PUL's and CNRNIB's communities both have very valid reasons for having grievances with the RoI! I don't blame them for making derogatory comments. And you would have to work pretty hard to actually be offended by the term free stater? Loyalists consider the term Fenian to be an insult, I would be happy to be categorised as a Fenian. I think there is a thing in Northern Ireland society, where everyone must be labelled to one group or another. People from the south are free staters, unionist/loyalist associate with Orange culture, Catholics Fenians or Taigs or chuckies etc...

I was actually reading a debate elsewhere about the demographics of Northern Ireland shifting in favour of the nationalists/Catholics with all the Eastern Europeans moving in over the past decade and someone, quite rightly, asked how the OP knew that the immigrants would automatically side with the nationalists.

I would have thought that (first generation anyway) immigrants would be neutral on the subject to try and avoid taking sides, but I think you're right, especially among the less educated there seems to be a tendency for people in NI to try and categorise each other.

Deedsie

Gott wrote: »

I was actually reading a debate elsewhere about the demographics of Northern Ireland shifting in favour of the nationalists/Catholics with all the Eastern Europeans moving in over the past decade and someone, quite rightly, asked how the OP knew that the immigrants would automatically side with the nationalists.

I would have thought that (first generation anyway) immigrants would be neutral on the subject to try and avoid taking sides, but I think you're right, especially among the less educated there seems to be a tendency for people in NI to try and categorise each other.

Oh totally, and not just among the less educated... You have to be tagged and have your colours put on the mast... There is a significant minority that are pulling away from this carry on, but I have friends from Tyrone who for example would only shop in their sides shops etc...

To be fair it's easy for us to look down our noses at those crazy nordies... If we had gone through anything like the struggle they went through our society would be just as divided...

We are good to label down here to... Pavee's, boggers, proddie's, culchies, Gah heads... Rugger heads, D4's, nordies, tans... etc etc...

Is free staters really that odd a label if it was slotted into that list?

Dr. Nooooo!

I know a few people from the north who loath the defense forces, even a mention of the term "defense forces" gets one of them in particular into a rage and he goes on about how they were no where to be seen over the decades when there were Irish people who actually needed defending yet could swan off to Africa and the middle east. I can see his point to be honest, he was interned, a bunch of his cousins and brother were murdered by british forces or loyalists. Plus then you have the whole army beatings, abuse, raids etc. He's not a solitary example.

Gott

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

I know a few people from the north who loath the defense forces, even a mention of the term "defense forces" gets one of them in particular into a rage and he goes on about how they were no where to be seen over the decades when there were Irish people who actually needed defending yet could swan off to Africa and the middle east. I can see his point to be honest, he was interned, a bunch of his cousins and brother were murdered by british forces or loyalists. Plus then you have the whole army beatings, abuse, raids etc. He's not a solitary example.

In fairness to serving members, who I know are quite dedicated and well trained, the Irish Army is in no position to conventionally defend Ireland, let alone invade the UK which had, at the time and still has, far superior naval, air, and land power and the means to project it.

Though during the riots in 1969 they did consider it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

While the intention was good, I can only imagine what sort of curbstomp battle would have resulted when the Brits got their sh*t together and responded.

nuac

Any invasion would have been a military and political disaster.

I trained in the FCÁ in the fifties. WW1 weapons and tactics . The .303 Lee Enfield was a good weapon in it's time, but it's time had passed

Conmaicne Mara

Dr. Nooooo! wrote: »

I know a few people from the north who loath the defense forces, even a mention of the term "defense forces" gets one of them in particular into a rage and he goes on about how they were no where to be seen over the decades when there were Irish people who actually needed defending yet could swan off to Africa and the middle east. I can see his point to be honest, he was interned, a bunch of his cousins and brother were murdered by british forces or loyalists. Plus then you have the whole army beatings, abuse, raids etc. He's not a solitary example.

Bad for them, but as nuac says Ireland couldn't do diddly militarily. So what did your friend want exactly, a token partial invasion which would be soundly defeated and who knows, maybe the Republic occupied, or more counties lost.

If NI was all that bad, why did they not leave

robp

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

If NI was all that bad, why did they not leave

That would be an insensitive comment to a Nationalist there, and infact overlooks the psyche of Irish in the six counties.

Conmaicne Mara

robp wrote: »

That would be an insensitive comment to a Nationalist there, and infact overlooks the psyche of Irish in the six counties.

As insensitive as branding me a free stater, we're even

That posters friend wanted the people in the Republic to sacrifice themselves for him. Would he do the same for them, I very much doubt it.

A lot of people lived in questionable states, fact is people in NI could leave if they wanted to. First thing comes to my mind is the oppressed states behind the iron curtain. They really had no choice.

The language and the mindset of the people who say things like free state is completely counter productive.

Citycap

robp wrote: »

That would be an insensitive comment to a Nationalist there, and infact overlooks the psyche of Irish in the six counties.

They didn't put up much of a resistance between 1922 and 1969. From a military point of view there were a few border skirmishes in the 50s and early 60s. Where was the great civil disobedience campaigns or were they bought off by the Welfare State

Coles

Citycap wrote: »

They didn't put up much of a resistance between 1922 and 1969. From a military point of view there were a few border skirmishes in the 50s and early 60s. Where was the great civil disobedience campaigns or were they bought off by the Welfare State

What welfare state? How about you do a bit of research first.

robp

Citycap wrote: »

They didn't put up much of a resistance between 1922 and 1969. From a military point of view there were a few border skirmishes in the 50s and early 60s. Where was the great civil disobedience campaigns or were they bought off by the Welfare State

I am not sure what your point is. If your taking a shot at the movement's sincerity well then just look at the civil rights movement in the US and observe how it was non existent over decades of black discrimination.

The welfare state in its modern form only began to come about after WW2. There were eruptions of violence there before the 1960s but wide scale civil disobedience or violence takes many factors to coalesce.