women's self defence classes

Fitzg

Hi everyone,
just wondering if anyone has done a self-defence course and what their experience of it was?
positive, negative - was it useful? how were the instructors etc
Likewise if anyone on here teaches self-defence I'd be interested to hear from them too!
I'd like to learn self-defence but I'm not sure how to go about it and what would be useful to me - I teach yoga and dance and am pretty fit...
I mostly want to use it to have confidence to know I could get away if I was ever in a situation of being hopped on by someone.
I was in a situation before where a guy pinned my arms down by my sides and forced his mouth over mine outside of Whelan's at the end of the night. There were plenty of people around and no-one intervened. I kneed him in the balls, he changed his grip and picked me up and dragged me over away from the gang of people - he was pretending it was a play fight - I had to dig my nails in his throat and shout at him before he'd let go. The whole incident seemed to go on forever and I want to know/practice being able to defend myself just in case I'm ever in this situation again...

Sonics2k

Whereabouts are you living?

First step is to find a reliable instructor, male or female is fine.

When looking at first defence classes, you want to know exactly what they will teach.

I taught it myself years ago, and the main advice I and any other decent instructor should tell you is to -never- kick an aggressive man in the balls, it will rarely end well for the woman.

Instead you'd want to aim for the bridge of the nose, the shin bone, front of the knee cap. These attacks will slow down, confuse and daze the attacker. Hitting him the in balls won't stop a man, just make him excessively angry.

Fitzg

thanks Sonic, that's exactly the kind of advice I need!! when I was fighting with that guy I was just doing what I felt I had to and I was so shocked at what was actually happening I didn't really use a lot of strength - until I was scratching his throat - then because I could talk I was shouting and saying let go - I'm based in Dublin - forgot to mention that!

Macha

I highly recommend a krav maga course. I'm not sure where you're based but there are quite a few places that teach it in Dublin.

Fitzg

really? I know nothing about Krav Maga it just looks mad extreme to me! what was the course like? I'd love to hear more if you have time - did you do it in Dublin?

Sonics2k

Fitzg wrote: »

really? I know nothing about Krav Maga it just looks mad extreme to me! what was the course like? I'd love to hear more if you have time - did you do it in Dublin?

Krav Maga is an Israeli martial art developed by there special forces.

It's not really a self defence martial art for a beginner, but is amazingly effective. The downside is that it is an aggressive and harder martial art to do.

If you do go to do Krav Maga, please please please make sure you go to a real instructor. There are loads of fakes around.
The last Master I remember in Ireland was Patrick Cumiskey, but you can find out more at www.kravmagaireland.com

Nwm2

Sonics2k wrote: »

Whereabouts are you living?

First step is to find a reliable instructor, male or female is fine.

When looking at first defence classes, you want to know exactly what they will teach.

I taught it myself years ago, and the main advice I and any other decent instructor should tell you is to -never- kick an aggressive man in the balls, it will rarely end well for the woman.

Instead you'd want to aim for the bridge of the nose, the shin bone, front of the knee cap. These attacks will slow down, confuse and daze the attacker. Hitting him the in balls won't stop a man, just make him excessively angry.

Rubbish.

A hard kick there can often drop a man, almost immediately. I've done it myself, both accidentally (while sparring) and on purpose. And women can kick hard with practice.

It is also an outstanding opening move, giving a predictable flinch response even with no contact, leading to further openings.

OP, if you want to learn "self defense" (and that is a hugely loaded term) you need to find somewhere you can learn simple techniques that you perfect and make instinctive and most importantly train it against resisting opponents, not against other 90lb females.

Most of the self defense taught to females doesn't work because they have never learned how to use it, even if the techniques are decent.

I used to have fun in seminars asking traditional martial artists if they knew how to get out of a headlock (to which they all had 'learned' some form of escape). But when I actually put them in a REAL headlock (like in a real fight, where someone is trying to rip your head off, or squeeze it until it bursts) they almost uniformly could not escape. They had never practiced it against a really resisting opponent.

Most 'self defense' (male or female) is like that. The Krav Maga recommended isn't immune to that either.

PS: Sounds like you did an outstanding job of escaping in that incident you had. Throat was a good target. Eyes would have been next if that didn't work, and a good kick in the you-know-where when he dropped you, followed by legging it.

Sonics2k

Nwm2 wrote: »

Rubbish.

A hard kick there can often drop a man, almost immediately. I've done it myself, both accidentally (while sparring) and on purpose. And women can kick hard with practice.

It can work, but it can also make the situation so much worse.

The defense classes I taught were based on disabling and getting away from an attacker.

Kicking a man in the balls during something like a mugging can easily turn it into a serious assault, beating and even rape.

Daidy2011

OP - if you live on the north side of Dublin, I would highly recommend Hard Target Self Defense in Donabate.

Their instructors are excellent, Aidan and Mary and both are qualified Krav Maga instructors.

You can find more detail on www.hardtargetselfdefence.com

I would highly recommend Krav Maga to you, though there will be detractors who will not agree with me, but I have found it highly effective.

Fitzg

Thanks everyone for your recomendations and thoughts I think I'll ring Hard Target and give it a go and see how I get on - I am northside so local is great !

larrymickdick

I did judo when I was a teenager - I went with my friend - she was more competitive though and used to do competitions - I was there really to learn about it. Didn't do it for long but it was good in the way that you are using your body weight to control the situation. It's almost like wrestling in a way - but if people have certain holds on you it shows you have to use certain parts of their body to get out of their control and in other ways to use your center of gravity in your body to throw them off balance - if they're on the ground and you're still standing you can get away. I found it very good and enjoyed it.

Don't know where in Dublin you are based but this website should be useful if you are interested.
http://www.irishjudoassociation.ie/clubs/itemlist/category/20-dublin

It is scary when you don't feel control - that guy sounds like a complete jerk! Best of luck and hope you find something that suits you and will give you more confidence for the future.

L

Standman

I think Brazilian jiu-jitsu is the way to go. It uses leverage to overpower the opponent as opposed to strength which means its great for a smaller person to learn.

Also with BJJ you can train and spar without holding back, as opposed to most martial arts where you cannot go 100% when practicing and sparring because of potential injury. This a very important aspect of martial arts training that is often overlooked; you might be a technically great fighter but if you aren't used to the full and uninhibited force of an opponent it can be next to useless in a real altercation.

There are plenty of places that teach it all over Ireland as its popularity has blown up over the last decade because of the popularity of mixed martial arts.

I did a few j-j lessons when in college. Forgotten a lot of it by now but it was very good. It's also true that the people teaching it, when demonstrating moves, really went at it to show that yea, you genuinely can get out of this situation with this move even when someone is trying to kill you. We also had to stop some punch-blocking practice because we weren't trying to punch each other properly
Can recommend it

Nwm2

Both Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo, recommended above, genuinely work because practicing the techniques against resisting opponents are fundamental to the arts.

Both need a just a thin veneer of 'street' to be applied to make them excellent self defense arts.

Someone mentioned 'JJ' (ie Jiu Jitsu) above. If this a Japanese Jiu Jitsu, it almost certainly is based on practicing against cooperative opponents, and is therefore very suspect.

OP, once again, if you walk into self defense class and all you see is a bunch of other females, what you 'learn' is probably worthless...

Tabitharose

another recommendation for Krav Maga & Patrick Cumiskey from me

ted1

Swift hard punch to the Adam's apple will ground most men. Akido is good for self defence and used the attackers size as an advantage to the person being attacked, its good for breaking free of grabs and holds.

In any attack the aim is to get free and run.

Nwm2

ted1 wrote: »

Swift hard punch to the Adam's apple will ground most men. Akido is good for self defence and used the attackers size as an advantage to the person being attacked, its good for breaking free of grabs and holds.

In any attack the aim is to get free and run.

Ok, I've appointed myself as the pain in the ass for this thread, but nevertheless....

SOME Aikido techniques are good for self defence, if practiced properly. But aikido as a whole is pretty terrible for self defense. It is the very essence of practicing against cooperating opponents, takes a long time to develop expertise and even then does not prepare you for violent confrontations.

"Use the attackers size as an advantage to the person being attacked". LOL, are you serious?

Sonics2k

ted1 wrote: »

Swift hard punch to the Adam's apple will ground most men. Akido is good for self defence and used the attackers size as an advantage to the person being attacked, its good for breaking free of grabs and holds.

In any attack the aim is to get free and run.

Well yeah, but it can also cause severe damage and doing it too hard can kill.

These days it's become sickeningly common for an attacker to sue someone after they kick their arse a bit in defense.

rain on

Nwm2 wrote: »

Ok, I've appointed myself as the pain in the ass for this thread, but nevertheless....

SOME Aikido techniques are good for self defence, if practiced properly. But aikido as a whole is pretty terrible for self defense. It is the very essence of practicing against cooperating opponents, takes a long time to develop expertise and even then does not prepare you for violent confrontations.

Yeah this thread would cause no end of arguments in the martial arts board

For what it's worth, as a woman who does a lot of combat sports (mainly MMA and BJJ and some kickboxing) and I do them for competition and fitness rather than self defence, my self defence strategy is:

1) Avoid the situation in the first place
2) Run

If it came down to it, I would be confident enough in my abilities to take a punch, use basic wrestling and trips to take an attacker to the ground and disable them while they're there, or sweep or get up from under a larger person. But on the street all bets are off - all that stuff is well drilled into my muscle memory that I could be reasonably sure of being able to use it in a panic situation, but you can't properly drill eye gouges, groin strikes, weapon use or defence, etc etc.

A martial art or combat sport that you enjoy enough to train once or twice a week will go a long way towards building fitness, confidence and assertiveness which are crucial IMO. Depending on people's tastes I'd recommend BJJ/judo/wrestling/MMA/kickboxing/muay thai.

Chucky the tree

Sonics2k wrote: »

It can work, but it can also make the situation so much worse.

The defense classes I taught were based on disabling and getting away from an attacker.

Kicking a man in the balls during something like a mugging can easily turn it into a serious assault, beating and even rape.

I'd have thought most self-defence instructors would simply tell their students/pupils to hand over their belongings in a mugging.

--Kaiser--

Nwm2 wrote: »

Both Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo, recommended above, genuinely work because practicing the techniques against resisting opponents are fundamental to the arts.

Both need a just a thin veneer of 'street' to be applied to make them excellent self defense arts.

Someone mentioned 'JJ' (ie Jiu Jitsu) above. If this a Japanese Jiu Jitsu, it almost certainly is based on practicing against cooperative opponents, and is therefore very suspect.

OP, once again, if you walk into self defense class and all you see is a bunch of other females, what you 'learn' is probably worthless...

What you say about Jiu Jitsu is incorrect. Moves are practised with a co-operative opponent sure, otherwise they would be impossible to learn. Moves are also put to practical use in Randori, which is freestyle sparring.
It's also considerably more practical as a self defence than either Judo or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, both are which are modifications on classical Jiu Jitsu and more suited to sports.

As for seeing a class full of females...I hardly see where you assume this means it's useless, my kickboxing club had mostly female members yet trained people very well and very hard. One of the trainers (a woman) has several European belts in several disciplines

Nwm2

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

What you say about Jiu Jitsu is incorrect. Moves are practised with a co-operative opponent sure, otherwise they would be impossible to learn. Moves are also put to practical use in Randori, which is freestyle sparring.
It's also considerably more practical as a self defence than either Judo or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, both are which are modifications on classical Jiu Jitsu and more suited to sports.

Wrong. In my 20+ years I spent several years doing all three - Japanese JJ, BJJ and Judo. The difference between Judo/BJJ and Japanese JJ (with very few exceptions) is that Judo/BJJ can actually pull off the techniques they train because they train in "all out*" sparring all the time, and the moves that do not work are simply dumped, whereas JJJ generally does not train that way - sparring is typically of the infrequent or semi-contact type that afflicts most traditional martial arts.

Now, read carefully what I said - neither (sport) BJJ or Judo are street ready as generally taught (although Gracie JJ certainly is). They need some modification. But you're starting from some great foundations. As an untrained attacker, if a well trained Judoka gets their hands on you you're f*cked, if you're on the ground with a BJJ practitioner you're f*cked. Against most JJJ guys ... meh.

The martial arts that really work - MMA, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, thai boxing, judo, wrestling and some others - work because all-out competition is an intrinsic part of the art, which leaves no room for techniques that are too complicated/ineffective/"dangerous" to perform or learn.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

As for seeing a class full of females...I hardly see where you assume this means it's useless, my kickboxing club had mostly female members yet trained people very well and very hard. One of the trainers (a woman) has several European belts in several disciplines

Kickboxing is one of the arts that does work (IF it is a gym where people actually hit and get hit, which unfortunately does not happen in lots of "kickboxing" gyms). If your gym had hard contact sparring, then that is an awesome art for self defense. If it was purely hitting pads, or shadow boxing it's almost as bad as the traditional martial arts, maybe worse.

My comment about a room full of females refers to 'self defense' classes, not kickboxing. Because you're not going to learn how to survive an attack by a 200lb man by practicing with your giggling 110lb best mate.

(* by "all out" sparring, I do not mean no holds barred)

Sulla Felix

As a general suggestion, anyone interested in doing something for self defense should really consider regularly attending a club. The regular sparring helps break down some of the social constructs that can make or break a successful defense effort.

fatmammycat

Nwm2 wrote: »

Wrong. In my 20+ years I spent several years doing all three - Japanese JJ, BJJ and Judo. The difference between Judo/BJJ and Japanese JJ (with very few exceptions) is that Judo/BJJ can actually pull off the techniques they train because they train in "all out*" sparring all the time, and the moves that do not work are simply dumped, whereas JJJ generally does not train that way - sparring is typically of the infrequent or semi-contact type that afflicts most traditional martial arts.

Now, read carefully what I said - neither (sport) BJJ or Judo are street ready as generally taught (although Gracie JJ certainly is). They need some modification. But you're starting from some great foundations. As an untrained attacker, if a well trained Judoka gets their hands on you you're f*cked, if you're on the ground with a BJJ practitioner you're f*cked. Against most JJJ guys ... meh.

The martial arts that really work - MMA, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, thai boxing, judo, wrestling and some others - work because all-out competition is an intrinsic part of the art, which leaves no room for techniques that are too complicated/ineffective/"dangerous" to perform or learn.



Kickboxing is one of the arts that does work (IF it is a gym where people actually hit and get hit, which unfortunately does not happen in lots of "kickboxing" gyms). If your gym had hard contact sparring, then that is an awesome art for self defense. If it was purely hitting pads, or shadow boxing it's almost as bad as the traditional martial arts, maybe worse.

My comment about a room full of females refers to 'self defense' classes, not kickboxing. Because you're not going to learn how to survive an attack by a 200lb man by practicing with your giggling 110lb best mate.

(* by "all out" sparring, I do not mean no holds barred)

You said just about everything I might say. I trained in a full contact dojo in Barcelona and NOTHING opens your eyes to how useless some 'arts' are in terms of a street fight. Being knocked down repeatedly by a fourteen year old boy also opened my own eyes to the difference in male/female physicality. On the plus side, taking a few hits helps understand that it's not the end of the world to get hit and there are better ways to avoid them than being elaborate.

--Kaiser--

Nwm2 wrote: »

Wrong. In my 20+ years I spent several years doing all three - Japanese JJ, BJJ and Judo. The difference between Judo/BJJ and Japanese JJ (with very few exceptions) is that Judo/BJJ can actually pull off the techniques they train because they train in "all out*" sparring all the time, and the moves that do not work are simply dumped, whereas JJJ generally does not train that way - sparring is typically of the infrequent or semi-contact type that afflicts most traditional martial arts.

Now, read carefully what I said - neither (sport) BJJ or Judo are street ready as generally taught (although Gracie JJ certainly is). They need some modification. But you're starting from some great foundations. As an untrained attacker, if a well trained Judoka gets their hands on you you're f*cked, if you're on the ground with a BJJ practitioner you're f*cked. Against most JJJ guys ... meh.

The martial arts that really work - MMA, BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, thai boxing, judo, wrestling and some others - work because all-out competition is an intrinsic part of the art, which leaves no room for techniques that are too complicated/ineffective/"dangerous" to perform or learn.

You must have had a bad Jiu Jitsu sensai because we constantly sparred with new techniques (and you can't 'semi-contact' spar with Jiu Jistsu). I've trained in Judo, BJJ and Jiu Jitsu and I consider the latter to be the most useful and practical of the three. Judo is definitely the worst, once you've gotten someone on their back you've 'won', in the other two disciplines you haven't even started

Fitzg

Fitzg wrote: »

just wondering if anyone has done a self-defence course and what their experience of it was?

I do BJJ myself with my GFs. They are actually at the same level as me but both somehow always "beat" me in sparring and testing. Despite me being larger and stronger - the training seems to accentuate their natural advantages in speed and flexibility in ways that I appear entirely unable to match.

One of them had to use it for real only once. An attacker with sexual intent on a dark street in a dark place at night here in maynooth. He did not stand much of a chance as it - thankfully - turned out - and he was left in a condition that not only likely left him unwilling to try the same trick on a woman again - but perhaps even physically incapable of it. She did not hang around to find out.

As other users have pointed out already - BJJ is a fighting style that focuses heavily on combat on the ground. Depending on the intention of your attacker this can be very useful for self defense in women - given that attackers with a sexual motive likely have pulling you to the ground as one of their prime concerns.

Clearly - as others have pointed out - your prime goal in self defense should be escape rather than victory - but certainly being capable of both is not to be sneezed at. There is - also as has been pointed out - little substitute for fighting styles that allow "real" rather than "simulated" sparring.

Sam Harris writes very well about BJJ here if you are interested.

We also do Capoeira as a sport. It is a martial arts dance style which could feed nicely into your existing yoga and dance. While it is useless in a fight (you would likely hurt yourself more than your attacker) and useless on an actual dance floor (you will hurt everyone except yourself in this case - though with no small level of comedy for any observers) the strength and fitness we have gotten from it is second to no excercise we have done before - and being a martial arts dance style it directly helps the kinds of motions - flexibilities - and muscles - that will compliment any fighting style you do learn.

Plus it is a kick ass party piece to perform.

--Kaiser--

Deleted User wrote: »

I do BJJ myself with my GFs. They are actually at the same level as me but both somehow always "beat" me in sparring and testing. Despite me being larger and stronger - the training seems to accentuate their natural advantages in speed and flexibility in ways that I appear entirely unable to match.

One of them had to use it for real only once. An attacker with sexual intent on a dark street in a dark place at night here in maynooth. He did not stand much of a chance as it - thankfully - turned out - and he was left in a condition that not only likely left him unwilling to try the same trick on a woman again - but perhaps even physically incapable of it. She did not hang around to find out.

As other users have pointed out already - BJJ is a fighting style that focuses heavily on combat on the ground. Depending on the intention of your attacker this can be very useful for self defense in women - given that attackers with a sexual motive likely have pulling you to the ground as one of their prime concerns.

Really glad to hear that she could use her martial arts to defend herself. The great thing about BJJ is that a man attempting to force himself on you is putting himself in your guard, and with a decent amount of skill and experience you can break a limb or choke him out quite easily. But...wieght and strength are still significant factors to take account of, even for an experienced martial artist

DipStick McSwindler

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