forced into retirement

gumgum1

Hi am just looking for some advice my mother is turning 65 at the end of the month she works in the local supermarket and was called up to the office today and told that she has to finish up work when she was 65 my mammy had no intention in leaving work and presumed she would still be able to work she also taught that the legal age to retirement had risen in the last couple of years and surly the company should have changed there retirement age in line with this any advice on if she could fight this thanks in advance

Stheno

Apart from certain professions there is no mandatory legal retirement age in Ireland currently, I think you are thinking of the age at which you become eligible for a pension.

retirement age should be called out in contracts, has your mother checked this?

gumgum1

Stheno wrote: »

Apart from certain professions there is no mandatory legal retirement age in Ireland currently, I think you are thinking of the age at which you become eligible for a pension.

retirement age should be called out in contracts, has your mother checked this?

hi thanks for your reply she was just told it was company policy and that she is finished in two week i taught she could work for as long as she wanted is there any thing she can do about it its well known that the company have being trying to get rid of there long term workers by changing there contracts and making them work different shift than they used to i just feel there using this as am excuse to get rid of her

Stheno

gumgum1 wrote: »

hi thanks for your reply she was just told it was company policy and that she is finished in two week i taught she could work for as long as she wanted is there any thing she can do about it its well known that the company have being trying to get rid of there long term workers by changing there contracts and making them work different shift than they used to i just feel there using this as am excuse to get rid of her

If that's the company policy that people retire at 65 then probably not much she can do?

gumgum1

Stheno wrote: »

If that's the company policy that people retire at 65 then probably not much she can do?

Thanks again do you know if she should have been given more notice

Irish_Elect_Eng

gumgum1 wrote: »

Thanks again do you know if she should have been given more notice

If it was in her contract that she finished at 65 then that would be considered notice.

If not then the notice period specified in her contract would apply.

Mrs OBumble

Citizen's Information says:

There is no single fixed retirement age for employees. If you are employed, your retirement age is set out in your contract of employment.

Ref: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/retirement/older_people_and_working/retirement_age_in_ireland.html

So - what does her contract say?

gumgum1

She is working there for the last twelve years and she dose not ever remember anything about retirement age in her contract and everyone in her work place was surprised by this as much as she was have only been talking to her over phone but tomorrow i Will get her to get me out all her information
again i just taught because the government have raised the retirement age that companies should have had to i just think its unfair that they could call her up today and tell she finished in two week surly if she willing to work they would be able to come to some sort of arrangement

JDxtra

No, nothing she can so about it if it's in her contract. I admit, her manager or HR could have raised it sooner - but your mother should also have been aware and asked questions well in advance.

I doubt it's anything to do with getting rid of longer term staff, just normal company policy.

gumgum1

Well she has arranged holidays with them for September so she presumed that she be ok why let book time off when they new she would not be there she has always said that she was not going to retire at 65 as she is a widow women and her work keeps her going its known that the store is running at a loss and has been reported that its going to be sold so this is the reason she thinks there using this reason to let her go

wmpdd3

Its in my contract too, but the pension is now paid at 66, I can't see the dole office giving her JSA for 1 year?

DOes she have holiday to take, make sure she gets paid for any days and bank holidays owed to her too.

It may be worth getting on touch with her union as I'm sure this has come up somewhere in the country since the pension was moved by a year.

Kristopherus

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Its in my contract too, but the pension is now paid at 66, I can't see the dole office giving her JSA for 1 year?

DOes she have holiday to take, make sure she gets paid for any days and bank holidays owed to her too.

It may be worth getting on touch with her union as I'm sure this has come up somewhere in the country since the pension was moved by a year.

DSFA will now give JSB to retirees under 66 until their 66th birthday. If its not in the contract she can dispute it. In any case, any HR dept worth their salt should be telling their 64+ aged staff at least 3 months in advance that they are due to go.

Frynge

The retirement age of 65 was gotten rid of in January as it was considered ageism.

I will try and ref that.

http://www.mccannfitzgerald.ie/McfgFiles/knowledge/4928-Equality%20Law%20-%20Compulsory%20Retirement%20Age.pdf

Mrs OBumble

Frynge wrote: »

The retirement age of 65 was gotten rid of in January as it was considered ageism.

I will try and ref that.

http://www.mccannfitzgerald.ie/McfgFiles/knowledge/4928-Equality%20Law%20-%20Compulsory%20Retirement%20Age.pdf[

Ahh, you need to read your reference more carefully. Their conclusion - for Ireland - is basically that we are at an impasse, and that our laws are currently inconsistent with a range of European laws and judgements.

This is a case waiting to happen - but unless the OP's supermarket-worker mother has some lawyer friends willing to work for free, I doubt that she will be the test case.

OP, it's perhaps worth a fight if the retirement age isn't in her contract or the company handbook. And she should definitely get more notice - at very least, the notice period in her contract, more like three months IMHO. But she does need to be aware of the emotional battle that will be invovled in a fight - every day, she will have to go to work and be professional in her dealings with the manager and HR people, no matter how badly they're treating her.

gumgum1

Thanks for all your reply mammy has been advised my a union rep friend of her to ask for a copy of her contract and take it from there she has also been told that she can apply for am extension on her contract for a year as she feels she is fit to work she truly believes that in a couple of months that the shop Will close and this is the reason now they have decided to enforce this on her to save money and that they wont change there mind now no matter what

wmpdd3

If the shop did close and she had a 1 year extension she may be entitled to redundancy?

If this is so, it looks like the company tried to get a 12 year service person out before the pay out.

gumgum1

Hi just a quick update she got her contract today and its not in it bear in mind she was fifty three when she signed it so you think it would have been in it any views on were she stands nowi don't want her fighting it if really there is nothing mammy can do about it thanks in advance

gumgum1

gumgum1 wrote: »

Hi just a quick update she got her contract today and its not in it bear in mind she was fifty three when she signed it so you think it would have been in it any views on were she stands nowi don't want her fighting it if really there is nothing mammy can do about it thanks in advance

If I'm right, a union rep suggested she get a copy of the contract. She should at least bring it back to that person to have a look, even if that's all she does. If she isn't obliged to retire then she is being dismissed, however one looks at it. Obviously you don't want her dragging herself through a fight, and I doubt you'd want lawyers involved, but there could be a fair bit of money at stake and it's not the sort of dispute that needs a solicitor - a competent union rep could take it on (I've seen enough of them do this and either win or settle).

All IMO, of course.

Technoprisoner

ask for a copy of the company handbook if they have one and check that to see if there is any mention of retirement age in their.

gumgum1

Just had a look at her contract there is nothing about retirement age in it it has about the pension scheme which she is not paying into so really its not costing them to keep her on her weekly hour s are usually only 15 a week so there not making a great savings by enforcing her to go she is also the first one that gets any extra hours if there is some one sick
her own union rep told her its nothing to do with her but she has always been a waste of space

wmpdd3

gumgum1 wrote: »

Just had a look at her contract there is nothing about retirement age in it it has about the pension scheme which she is not paying into so really its not costing them to keep her on her weekly hour s are usually only 15 a week so there not making a great savings by enforcing her to go she is also the first one that gets any extra hours if there is some one sick
her own union rep told her its nothing to do with her but she has always been a waste of space

go above the rep in writing this is what they are paid for.

Del2005

I know a couple of years ago my Dad was forced to retire, his company didn't want to let him go but had to. The strange thing at the time was that he couldn't work when he was 65 but could once he'd turned 66. So now he's back working.

Maybe the OPs Mother's HR department are still working off the old rules.

delta_bravo

gumgum1 wrote: »

Just had a look at her contract there is nothing about retirement age in it it has about the pension scheme which she is not paying into so really its not costing them to keep her on her weekly hour s are usually only 15 a week so there not making a great savings by enforcing her to go she is also the first one that gets any extra hours if there is some one sick
her own union rep told her its nothing to do with her but she has always been a waste of space

Tell her to bring up the term contra proferentem to her boss or hr dept. They will back away quick enough if they're sensible.

msg11

I know of a man in my store who is 82 and still going strong !

mlumley

If they made her go, I think she would have a case for unfair dissmissle.

gumgum1

delta_bravo wrote: »

Tell her to bring up the term contra proferentem to her boss or hr dept. They will back away quick enough ifth they're sensible.

Can i ask you what that is thanks

gumgum1

Hi mammy has got her hand book and contract and neither mention that they have a retirement age of 65 any advice now on what she should do next

delta_bravo

gumgum1 wrote: »

Can i ask you what that is thanks

It's a legal term. It means that if anything is unclear or missing in a contract it goes against the person that wrote it. So if there's no mention of retirement in her contract they can't use that as a reason to let her go

Technoprisoner

gumgum1 wrote: »

Hi mammy has got her hand book and contract and neither mention that they have a retirement age of 65 any advice now on what she should do next

go find a solicitor about an unfair dismissal case

loyatemu

Del2005 wrote: »

I know a couple of years ago my Dad was forced to retire, his company didn't want to let him go but had to. The strange thing at the time was that he couldn't work when he was 65 but could once he'd turned 66. So now he's back working.

that's to do with the interim pension at age 65 - to claim it you can't be working. Once you turn 66 you claim the old age pension and can start working again. This may have changed recently though (I don't know or care as I'll be working until at least age 68 :mad:)

gumgum1

Hi mammy has a meeting with her manager and hr manager at two the union rep was rang again from the shop and asked to help and her reply was she has not got a leg to stand on mammy has numerous people advising her that cause its not in her contract her company handbook that they can not make her retire she very confused and upset dose not know what to do next

Technoprisoner

she can not be pushed or forced out of her job.....if they do, then she has every right to bring an unfair dismissal case against her employer http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

Macker1

Any update.......???

Best of luck to your Mum

gumgum1

Macker1 wrote: »

Any update.......???

Best of luck to your Mum

Thanks the manager didn't really have a update for her just asked her what did she want and mammy told him that she did not want to retire that its not in her contract or her company policy book and if they continue with this she would feel that they are discriminating against her because of her age she gave them till tomorrow to get back to her

Technoprisoner

gumgum1 wrote: »

Thanks the manager didn't really have a update for her just asked her what did she want and mammy told him that she did not want to retire that its not in her contract or her company policy book and if they continue with this she would feel that they are discriminating against her because of her age she gave them till tomorrow to get back to her

they wont go ahead with it...and if they do the are very very foolish

irishgirl19

any news

gumgum1

irishgirl19 wrote: »

any news

Hi no news head office was supposed to have got back to her yesterday and they still haven't that just goes to show what kind of people she is dealing with

irishgirl19

I hope the union are really pushing for her to stay and putting pressure on HR. Thats what your Mam is paying them for

gumgum1

irishgirl19 wrote: »

I hope the union are really pushing for her to stay and putting pressure on HR. Thats what your Mam is paying them for

Her union rep told her that the retirement age was 65 and what's she making a fuss for or something in them words have not made direct contact with mammy but has always backed the company don't think she has every won anything for the shop has always sided with the company t

Mrs OBumble

Forget the local union rep then. Contact a staff member from the union office. They should be more helpful.

wmpdd3

Go above the union rep as above, the information given to your mum is wrong.

Is it Mandate? There should be a sign in the staffroom giving the regional union reps name.

This company is really making some serious HR errors.
Its not very often that a person reaches 65 in employment like retail and they may be out of practice. But thats no excuse.

OP get yourself a notebook and start taking down times dates and who you spoke to whether it be union or the company.

gumgum1

Hi my mammy finally has a meeting with the hr manager from head office on Friday to see what's happening she is still none the wiser on were she stands she turns 65 on Friday to

wmpdd3

Her union rep should be with her at this meeting, she's entitled to have someone.
Demand that the union rep is there or get them to arrange someone else.


This maybe described as a 'chat' and no need for witness' etc but at the end of the day, they want to take your mum's job so no point in regretting not fighting when the job is gone.

The HR person will probably have a notetaker/witness, so your mum would be in a better situation with someone as well.

gumgum1

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Her union rep should be with her at this meeting, she's entitled to have someone.
Demand that the union rep is there or get them to arrange someone else.


This maybe described as a 'chat' and no need for witness' etc but at the end of the day, they want to take your mum's job so no point in regretting not fighting when the job is gone.

The HR person will probably have a notetaker/witness, so your mum would be in a better situation with someone as well.

her shop steward is going in with her and a friend that is a union rep is writing her out some notes for her to say thanks for all your reply hopefully we Will have some answer on Friday

delthedriver

Having read all the Ops posts I sense the Union reps are pussyfooting around.
Get support from the Regional Rep from Union HQ.
If the above cannot sort the issue, may I suggest talking to a Solicitor , specialising in Employment Law. There are solicitors out there who dabble in a bit of everything, I stress a specialist in Employment Law.
Employers are trying every trick in the book to get rid of people, be under no illusions! During the good times HR Depts. were all nice and cosy as they fought hard to retain their staff.Since the downturn the Psychopaths have returned to HR depts. to get rid of people, preferably replace them with young , cheap and thick! It is very sad to see someone being treated unfairly, particularly when they have given considerable years to an organisation. Do not let them off the hook, ironically even the psychopaths will think more of someone who fights their corner.
Go fight them! Game on!

gumgum1

Hi the hr manager for the company finally got back to mammy they offered her 3 months which is really only notice I can't understand if she has to retire at 65 why is she able to work for another 3 months I think there just being sly and miserable they really should have paid her 3 months notice to go as it was there fault they never notified her of this policy she had asked to work for another year and review it then this time next year

tatli_lokma

3 months notice? on what grounds? if it is not in her contract that she must retire at 65 then they can't use that as grounds for serving notice. So they need to have a valid reason as to why they are, in effect, sacking her. I think your mam should consult an employment law solicitor. The initial consultation is usually free. It might end up being a case of not worth the expense, but at least she can know what her options are and decide from there.

Technoprisoner

gumgum1 wrote: »

Hi the hr manager for the company finally got back to mammy they offered her 3 months which is really only notice I can't understand if she has to retire at 65 why is she able to work for another 3 months I think there just being sly and miserable they really should have paid her 3 months notice to go as it was there fault they never notified her of this policy she had asked to work for another year and review it then this time next year

seek legal advice...this is unfair dismissal

gumgum1

Thanks for your reply I have finally got mammy to go and talk to her solicitor just to see what he has to say her app is next week hope he can help her

wmpdd3

Good, best to do this now while she's still in work. Also get here to make a note of anything that is said to her noting the time and date in the coming weeks!

delthedriver

gumgum1 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply I have finally got mammy to go and talk to her solicitor just to see what he has to say her app is next week hope he can help her

Make sure your Mam's solicitor knows his employment law or is a specialist in that field. Be sure, her Employers will bring in the Big guns if needed. The last thing she needs is a dumbass solicitor who does a little bit of everything. A dumbass could make the situation worse instead of better!:)