Microsoft Uturn on Windows 8

200motels

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/steve-ballmer-the-boss-who-bet-his-company-on-windows-8--and-lost-as-computer-giant-announces-biggest-product-uturn-since-new-coke-8605776.html

Big Lar

Well if you don't try you will never know I guess, hard to believe they are calling it a failure after selling 100 million licences.

Soundman

Will this "update" be optional though? If not, then what happens to those of us, like myself, who actually like Win8 and the way it is designed?

batman2000

Big Lar wrote: »

Well if you don't try you will never know I guess, hard to believe they are calling it a failure after selling 100 million licences.

Microsoft are not calling it a failure. However licences does not always equal users. It's not hard to believe they will make changes rumoured to be Windows 8.1. Been using Windows 8 for since December 2012.
They are listening to their users....
The only changes I expect will be the return of the Start "Globe" and also the option to boot into the Desktop

The 100 million licences figure probably includes machines which shipped with Windows 8 Pro licences but were downgraded to Windows 7 Pro by the manufacturer or end user under Microsoft's downgrade rights.

unkel

Karsini wrote: »

The 100 million licences figure probably includes machines which shipped with Windows 8 Pro licences but were downgraded to Windows 7 Pro by the manufacturer or end user under Microsoft's downgrade rights.

What percentage of the total shipped would that be? Surely no more than a few percent tops?

unkel

unkel wrote: »

What percentage of the total shipped would that be? Surely no more than a few percent tops?

In the business market it could be significant. I've come across a lot of new HP business systems which have Windows 8 media in the box but Windows 7 preinstalled.

AlmightyCushion

Karsini wrote: »

In the business market it could be significant. I've come across a lot of new HP business systems which have Windows 8 media in the box but Windows 7 preinstalled.

It would have been the same with Vista and probably 7 as well though.

Overheal

It was. During every major transition companies want to linger on the previous OS. I still have customers that make queasy groans when I tell them all out products are 64-bit, that was what 6 years ago now?

Oh yeah: the article is a big over the top. This isn't a U-Turn, a U-Turn would have been more like "Uh yeah, everyone who bought Windows 8 we're giving you a free installer to load Windows 7", or the complete abolition of the tile interface. Adding a start button and a boot to desktop mode isn't exactly a U-Turn, more than it is an admission of something they probably ought to have caught with a wider set of whatya callems... screen testings. Especially testing with - old people. Worked great for me, being trained at the retail level in it, for the intent of training customers, but they did themselves no favors by leaving it there, because most customers clearly needed more hands on help to handle it. Ultimately the changes are not that dramatic, when you really break it down, but to the average user you might as well have swapped out their keyboard for a chinese layout for all the sense it makes to them. People were already upset with the gradual changes between XP, Vista and 7.

zenno

I have been using windows 7 professional since it was released in RC and it does everything i need it to do, but i decided to try windows 8 a few months ago and i have no touch screen but i really see no point in so-called upgrading to windows 8 as win7 does everything win8 does, just a waste of money but i got the windows 8 disc for very cheap.

The start button was not a major issue at all but using windows 8 on a non- touch screen makes absolutely no sense at all. Using a mouse and keyboard on this win8 is pointless, hence why i went back to windows 7 of which does everything i need and is the most stable operating system i have ever used.

Will see what windows 9 is like in the near future.

The other thing people say is that windows 8 is faster in that it has faster load-up timing and usability, well that is only because when they installed windows 8 it was a clean install and obviously it will be faster as it has less garbage to load, but give it time as files accumulate and you will see no speed difference.

liamog

zenno wrote: »

I have been using windows 7 professional since it was released in RC and it does everything i need it to do, but i decided to try windows 8 a few months ago and i have no touch screen but i really see no point in so-called upgrading to windows 8 as win7 does everything win8 does, just a waste of money but i got the windows 8 disc for very cheap.

The start button was not a major issue at all but using windows 8 on a non- touch screen makes absolutely no sense at all. Using a mouse and keyboard on this win8 is pointless, hence why i went back to windows 7 of which does everything i need and is the most stable operating system i have ever used.

Will see what windows 9 is like in the near future.

Improved task manager, file copy improvements and the new Win X power menu, that and general improvements which means it boots faster. All great reasons to upgrade to Win 8 on a desktop.

zenno

liamog wrote: »

Improved task manager, file copy improvements and the new Win X power menu, that and general improvements which means it boots faster. All great reasons to upgrade to Win 8 on a desktop.

I don't think that alone justify's the hassle of upgrading to windows 8.

Sure i gave it a week before i decided to return to windows 7 but that's just me. Everyone to their own i suppose. I'll wait for windows 9.

Sure windows 7 is not old by any stretch of the imagination, it does the job perfectly well.

liamog

zenno wrote: »

I don't think that alone justify's the hassle of upgrading to windows 8.

Sure i gave it a week before i decided to return to windows 7 but that's just me. Everyone to their own i suppose. I'll wait for windows 9.

Sure windows 7 is not old by any stretch of the imagination, it does the job perfectly well.

Was their an actual reason for going back to 7 other than the hassle? We should add multi monitor support to Win 8 list as well.

zenno

liamog wrote: »

Was their an actual reason for going back to 7 other than the hassle? We should add multi monitor support to Win 8 list as well.

It's just like this... I don't like cauliflower so i don't eat it, I don't like windows 8 so i don't use it, simple really. multi monitor support is available in windows 7 so that's nothing new.

If you like windows 8 then great, but not everyone likes it. I might have to work on a few to fix but that's as far as i will go in using it.

Any way there are compatibility issues with special software i have to use so they won't work on win8 so i'm happy enough with 7 for the time being.

dartup

no business will use windows 8,its not computer friendly,when you turn on your computer you want to do computer work not sort through apps,you also want on off button and a button that will search for programs,you want the desktop coming up first,

AlmightyCushion

zenno wrote: »

It's just like this... I don't like cauliflower so i don't eat it, I don't like windows 8 so i don't use it, simple really. multi monitor support is available in windows 7 so that's nothing new.

If you like windows 8 then great, but not everyone likes it. I might have to work on a few to fix but that's as far as i will go in using it.

Any way there are compatibility issues with special software i have to use so they won't work on win8 so i'm happy enough with 7 for the time being.

But if you spend 2 minutes installing a piece of software, you get all the advantages of Windows 8 but get to avoid the UI and have it work like Windows 7.

As a side note, after arranging the start screen a bit, I could actually see myself using it over start8. I arranged all my stuff into separate groups and it works nicely. Everything is laid out nice and neatly. Scrolling up and down on the mouse wheel or sliding on my touchpad works a lot better than finding things buried in a folder of a folder in the start menu.

AlmightyCushion

dartup wrote: »

no business will use windows 8,its not computer friendly,when you turn on your computer you want to do computer work not sort through apps,you also want on off button and a button that will search for programs,you want the desktop coming up first,

You can add a power button if you like plus as someone said above you can change it so the computer's power button shuts down the computer. Also, there is no button for searching for programs because you just start typing and it searches for programs (as well as files and settings). It works like Windows 7 but you don't have to open the start menu, it's one less step.

Businesses won't change because they are reluctant to change and for a good reason. Windows 7 is really a more logical step for a business to make the switch to in most cases.

liamog

zenno wrote: »

It's just like this... I don't like cauliflower so i don't eat it, I don't like windows 8 so i don't use it, simple really. multi monitor support is available in windows 7 so that's nothing new.

If you like windows 8 then great, but not everyone likes it. I might have to work on a few to fix but that's as far as i will go in using it.

Any way there are compatibility issues with special software i have to use so they won't work on win8 so i'm happy enough with 7 for the time being.

That's what I am trying to find out, there's a lot of opinions given where I don't like it becomes the final answer when pushed. As someone who used 7 extensively then upgraded to 8 I'm trying to put my finger on what the difference is that is turning people off.

Win 8 on the desktop to me contains a number of improvements that I miss when using my Win 7 PC in work.

Overheal

when you do a file search in the start menu in 7, does it search within documents? 8 does this pretty smoothly (even with hand-written notes in windows journal) just wondering if 7 did it. Its a feature that has made my life much easier, given that in a lecture setting I'm not exactly given the foresight or advantage to name my notes as whatever I learned (nor is it practical from a folder organization standpoint: its cleaner to keep it as chapter 7.3 7.4 or similar) so when I need to quickly find my notes on say, Stokes Theorem, I don't need to remember anything else, just do a file search for Stokes and wham, theres my note, from Chapter 15, and again in my Unit 5 review sheet.

zenno

liamog wrote: »

That's what I am trying to find out, there's a lot of opinions given where I don't like it becomes the final answer when pushed. As someone who used 7 extensively then upgraded to 8 I'm trying to put my finger on what the difference is that is turning people off.

Win 8 on the desktop to me contains a number of improvements that I miss when using my Win 7 PC in work.

I obviously know that you can just use the original windows desktop but this is why i see absolutely no reason to upgrade to it as it is basically the same as using windows 7 but my main gripe with it is that i use a lot of older software that i need to connect to the system and to change two way radio settings and transmission settings and the software will not work on windows 8 but the software works perfectly on windows 7. Compatibility mode on windows 8 is of no use.

There are other software programs i need and use and they will not work either, so basically if i just needed windows 8 as an entertainment system i would be fine but until they make the compatability better so that i can use my software then it's a no go.

Also windows 8 actually ran slower than win7 on my system when i installed it clean with a full format of the hard drive. Don't get me wrong, win8 looks like a decent system but it is not for me personally at this time.

I want things running smooth and i cannot have the problem of incompatibilities.

AlmightyCushion

Overheal wrote: »

when you do a file search in the start menu in 7, does it search within documents? 8 does this pretty smoothly (even with hand-written notes in windows journal) just wondering if 7 did it. Its a feature that has made my life much easier, given that in a lecture setting I'm not exactly given the foresight or advantage to name my notes as whatever I learned (nor is it practical from a folder organization standpoint: its cleaner to keep it as chapter 7.3 7.4 or similar) so when I need to quickly find my notes on say, Stokes Theorem, I don't need to remember anything else, just do a file search for Stokes and wham, theres my note, from Chapter 15, and again in my Unit 5 review sheet.

I think it did.

Overheal

Well, I didnt upgrade for the tiles either. I did it for the Live Account syncing and like in my last post I'm a sucker for the improvements they've been making to search ever since vista. Vista made me a fan because of just how few keystrokes it took to launch the calculator, as opposed to the XP start menu jungle tree of doom. 7 was an improvement on that, and 8 makes some improvements to that - though I would like it the app/settings/file searches weren't so exclusive - if I just start typing "Add Printer", employ the same common sense that 7 showed. Still, they made another upgrade on the file indexing, and I like it.

I think it did.

See, I cant remember. And to its credit, I wasn't doing digital notes back then either.

batman2000

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

But if you spend 2 minutes installing a piece of software, you get all the advantages of Windows 8 but get to avoid the UI and have it work like Windows 7.

As a side note, after arranging the start screen a bit, I could actually see myself using it over start8. I arranged all my stuff into separate groups and it works nicely. Everything is laid out nice and neatly. Scrolling up and down on the mouse wheel or sliding on my touchpad works a lot better than finding things buried in a folder of a folder in the start menu.

There are actually lots of nice tricks to Windows 8. A good quick how to guide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi8NpwiEuzc

iMyself

The windows 8 argument is simple. People do not like change. There are a lot of people out there who are computer illiterate, and I'm not just talking about older people. It takes them a great deal to learn the very basics, they learn only the bear minimum that is required for them to get by using a computer. They see Microsoft come along, and from their perspective, completely change everything they are familiar with and they don't like it.

What disappoints me in the Windows 8 debate is all the other users. The tech savvy and the IT professionals whose arguments simply do not make sense. I can't live without a start button, I want it to go straight to desktop, I mean ffs what silly arguments. the amount of so called professionals I know who did not realise that windows key on the keyboard will pop up the tiles screen, or even that it pops up the start menu in windows 7. nor are they familiar with any of the windows key short cuts either in windows 7 or windows 8.

I absolutely love windows 8. I installed it on my non touch laptop and have recently bought a Surface and without a doubt it blows Android and iOS out of the water (I have owned both) with regards to functionality and practical use. It's a tablet you will use. It's a tablet you can get work done on. I don't care that it doesn't have 20 million apps because it does everything I need out of the box. The only app I have installed is Mobile.HD to play videos and that along with the stock software is all I am ever going to need. not to mention that 99% of apps on iOS and android are complete and utter junk.

I had someone ask me advice about whether to get a tablet or a laptop\pc. After about 5 minutes it was apparent when he said tablet he actually meant an iPad, as if there was no other type even worth considering. The problem he had was that he could not see any use for it other than pissing about with apps. There is a gap in the market for a tablet with the productivity of a PC. Windows 8 meets that need. It's in the early days, no doubt, but hopefully it will survive and evolve.

As for the OP, Windows blue is an update. Microsoft have been doing it for years. Apple do it and Google do it. what the fcuk is all this talk about a U turn?! Because they're going to put a start button back and allow you to boot straight to desktop (which you can already do, but again not for the computer illiterate)?! I don't get it. I simply don't see the problems other people see. What are people going to moan about when they put these features in? It doesn't have a farting noise app?

zenno

iMyself wrote: »

The windows 8 argument is simple. People do not like change. There are a lot of people out there who are computer illiterate, and I'm not just talking about older people. It takes them a great deal to learn the very basics, they learn only the bear minimum that is required for them to get by using a computer. They see Microsoft come along, and from their perspective, completely change everything they are familiar with and they don't like it.

What disappoints me in the Windows 8 debate is all the other users. The tech savvy and the IT professionals whose arguments simply do not make sense. I can't live without a start button, I want it to go straight to desktop, I mean ffs what silly arguments. the amount of so called professionals I know who did not realise that windows key on the keyboard will pop up the tiles screen, or even that it pops up the start menu in windows 7. nor are they familiar with any of the windows key short cuts either in windows 7 or windows 8.

I absolutely love windows 8. I installed it on my non touch laptop and have recently bought a Surface and without a doubt it blows Android and iOS out of the water (I have owned both) with regards to functionality and practical use. It's a tablet you will use. It's a tablet you can get work done on. I don't care that it doesn't have 20 million apps because it does everything I need out of the box. The only app I have installed is Mobile.HD to play videos and that along with the stock software is all I am ever going to need. not to mention that 99% of apps on iOS and android are complete and utter junk.

I had someone ask me advice about whether to get a tablet or a laptop\pc. After about 5 minutes it was apparent when he said tablet he actually meant an iPad, as if there was no other type even worth considering. The problem he had was that he could not see any use for it other than pissing about with apps. There is a gap in the market for a tablet with the productivity of a PC. Windows 8 meets that need. It's in the early days, no doubt, but hopefully it will survive and evolve.

As for the OP, Windows blue is an update. Microsoft have been doing it for years. Apple do it and Google do it. what the fcuk is all this talk about a U turn?! Because they're going to put a start button back and allow you to boot straight to desktop (which you can already do, but again not for the computer illiterate)?! I don't get it. I simply don't see the problems other people see. What are people going to moan about when they put these features in? It doesn't have a farting noise app?

Well see, this is your problem right here, well, in bold above.

Why would a person use an operating system that has incompatibilities with the software they use ? Windows 8 might be grand for the user if their software works on it but it's no good for people when they cannot run their own important software on it, what would be the point.

I personally never had a problem with the start button but if it is not compatible with my software then what use is it ?.

Overheal

I have yet to encounter a piece of software that couldnt handle 8, unless you're using some old **** that you should have updated years back or some in-house concoction. Im looking squarely at people who are clung on to licenses for things like Office 2003 or some legacy version of Quickbooks. Or Microsoft Money, or Works. And if you use either of those last two a lot of it boils down to the user's resistance to tolerate any changes to their workflow, even if once learned those changes offer an improvement.

That said, as long as I've been selling Tablets people have expected them to be able to run Quickbooks and Office, and they really aren't fit for either, especially the former, which still requires you to run the desktop software as a basis. The line of Windows 8 x64 and x86 tablets bridges that, you can actually if you're so inclined use a Lenovo Lynx to replace your other PC solutions.

iMyself

zenno wrote: »

Well see, this is your problem right here, well, in bold above.

Why would a person use an operating system that has incompatibilities with the software they use ? Windows 8 might be grand for the user if their software works on it but it's no good for people when they cannot run their own important software on it, what would be the point.

I personally never had a problem with the start button but if it is not compatible with my software then what use is it ?.

What incompatibilities? If you need to install your own important software then you need Windows 8 pro.

zenno

My God you people think you know everything about operating systems.

The software I use is not that old, it is 1 year old and it is business software for two way transmitters, hand talkies and base station systems software which i need to work and they don't work with windows 8, it's that simple. I need to program other transmitters on a weekly bases so i need this software running perfectly, this is the reason i went back to windows 7.

I use other software of which has the same problem with compatibility in windows 8 as well. Now does my comment make sense ?.

I was using windows 8 pro and this is the problem i had.

iMyself

zenno wrote: »

My God you people think you know everything about operating systems.

The software I use is not that old, it is 1 year old and it is business software for two way transmitters, hand talkies and base station systems software which i need to work and they don't work with windows 8, it's that simple. I need to program other transmitters on a weekly bases so i need this software running perfectly, this is the reason i went back to windows 7.

I use other software of which has the same problem with compatibility in windows 8 as well. Now does my comment make sense ?.

I was using windows 8 pro and this is the problem i had.

Well thanks for elaborating because yes your original post didn't make any sense. So obviously you need to stick with windows 7. Not sure how that is Microsoft's fault or how it makes windows 8 crap. It's one of two things, a) you don't have the right drivers installed or b) the drivers are not available, in which case the fault is with your software provider.

And no I don't know everything there is to know about operating systems but I do know a lot about them, it's part of my job to know.

delly

Other than the touch overlay, is there any other big differences in the UI. When I got my first Win7 machine I installed Classic Shell, and when a friend got a a Win8 laptop, I installed it for him too. It's tied to the windows key so from the start he has used it without having the hassle of the traditional Win8 home screen.

http://www.classicshell.net/

At least they are listening to feedback. Vista came and went without having any of its deficiencies addressed.

The True Puka

One thing I hope they bring back is the Windows Classic theme/interface. I am using this on 7 and it is much easier on the eye and cleaner.
And it is the ACTUAL Classic interface (grey backgrounds, blue title bars etc a ala Win 95) I'd like to see brought back as an option, not the faux classic high contrast colour schemes that you can download that try to mimic the classic interface. It's just not the same.

zenno

iMyself wrote: »

Well thanks for elaborating because yes your original post didn't make any sense. So obviously you need to stick with windows 7. Not sure how that is Microsoft's fault or how it makes windows 8 crap. It's one of two things, a) you don't have the right drivers installed or b) the drivers are not available, in which case the fault is with your software provider.

And no I don't know everything there is to know about operating systems but I do know a lot about them, it's part of my job to know.

I never said it was microsoft's fault or that it was crap in any of my comments. I said it seems like a good operating system but not for me at this time, because of unsupported software i use.

Same here, it was part of my job for 16 years, but as it stands now at this time, i will be sticking with win7

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/14/windows_8_point_1_free/

Microsoft has confirmed that it will issue its Blue update to Windows 8 without charge, with first code scheduled at the company’s Build conference starting on June 26.
...
Reller did not say what features would be wrapped in Windows 8.1, but last week she revealed that the company’s planning major changes to key parts of Windows 8 following “customer feedback".

A significant proportion of that feedback is centered on customers' difficulties with the fact that Windows 8 has dumped the classic desktop at startup in favour of the new, Metro touch-oriented UI.

200motels

The slide show gives a detailed view off what Windows blue will change.

http://www.infoworld.com/slideshow/101115/windows-blue-visual-preview-218703?source=IFWNLE_nlt_daily_pm_2013-05-16#slide1

Overheal

Hmm, not one image of a start box, just a whole lot of upgrades to the tile interface.

and ReFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2012#ReFS

Capt'n Midnight

Overheal wrote: »

and ReFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2012#ReFS

https://www.computerworld.com/s/article/69882/The_Road_to_Cairo

The year is 1992. Jim Allchin reveals Microsoft's plans to deliver a version of Windows NT, code-named Cairo, in 1994. Cairo is slated to use an Object File Store (OFS) as its file system. OFS is an object-oriented database designed to make it easy to search documents and other structured data by content.

Fysh

Yeah, I'm getting a touch annoyed by the number of tech blogs saying that Microsoft is specifically going back on the new UI and giving back the Start button when there's no statement to suggest that at all. "Taking on board user feedback" doesn't have to mean "rolling back all the changes we've made".

Hopefully there will be something in the Blue update to address the "automatic repair problem".

I actually liked Win 8 up until I got hit with this issue 2 weeks ago, the only way to fix it is the reformat your HDD. I've been onto MS about this and they've recommended I go back to Win 7 until further notice.

joebloggs32

Why are people using windows 7 and 8. Sure I had windows 95 nearly 20 years ago!

I'll get my coat.......

They're calling it 8.1, yet the kernel version will probably be 6.3. I know they'll use application compatibility as an excuse but it still makes no sense to have a real version number and a fake marketing one.

sentient_6

I for one am glad there now doesn't seem to be a massive turn around on the start screen.

senordingdong

I don't quite see the necessity of all this.
I wasn't wild on the tile UI at first but by pressing the windows key I was brought to a desktop home screen.

From there it was relatively easy to find me footing on the new system.

podgeandrodge

I was in the "burn it" camp but purchased a touchscreen Windows 8 laptop for a relation last week and set it up.

Have to say that, after actually spending some time reading the tips about how to actually use the interface, it is actually quite good - But, and a BIG BUT, - on a Touchscreen. I would not like to be messing with a mouse on it.

If everyone had a touchscreen and some patience I think it would work.

senordingdong

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I was in the "burn it" camp but purchased a touchscreen Windows 8 laptop for a relation last week and set it up.

Have to say that, after actually spending some time reading the tips about how to actually use the interface, it is actually quite good - But, and a BIG BUT, - on a Touchscreen. I would not like to be messing with a mouse on it.

If everyone had a touchscreen and some patience I think it would work.

+1 I came to terms with it a while ago and have only one issue. Using a mouse can cause a few minor headaches. They need a patch that allows me to disable touch screen swiping responses.
Such as everytime I move the cursor to a corner, I don't want some new menu to assualt my tasks.

200motels

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22714048

_Kaiser_

So it's confirmed the Start button is then just a link back to the Start screen then eh?

Don't think the likes of Start8 will have to worry too much so!

Fysh

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So it's confirmed the Start button is then just a link back to the Start screen then eh?

Don't think the likes of Start8 will have to worry too much so!

I don't understand why anyone thought it would be anything else, tbh.

I know that a lot of folks don't like the new UI paradigm, but there is some sense to it in the context of trying to have a shared paradigm across various platforms. The range of available 3rd party solutions really do make this one a minimal problem.

_Kaiser_

Fysh wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone thought it would be anything else, tbh.

I know that a lot of folks don't like the new UI paradigm, but there is some sense to it in the context of trying to have a shared paradigm across various platforms. The range of available 3rd party solutions really do make this one a minimal problem.

There's an old phrase that comes to mind: "give the people what they want" or if you prefer "The customer is King/always right"

Don't get me wrong, on a Tablet or touch screen Metro isn't half-bad once you delete all the irrelevant crap that's dumped on the home screen by default and until it drops you back to the Desktop where the UI with tiny icons and buttons really doesn't suit stubby fingers, but the point is the CHOICE should never have been removed.

It might be a good idea for MS from a business perspective to unify the UI so there's a common interface, easier development and so on, but the feedback has overwhelmingly shown that in the main, the customers don't like it - and hence why they've made this half-hearted attempt to appease them. That in itself is admission of failure and ultimately who are they making this software for? Paying customers or marketing types/execs/developers?

As I've said before, all that was needed with Win 8.0 was the simple prompt "We've detected that you do not have a touch screen device. Would you like to use the new Metro/Modern interface, or the Classic Windows interface?"

That's it. No need for embarrassing row-backs, no "it's the new ME/Vista" feedback (and personally I think that unless they DO release a SP2 and give in entirely and restore the full Desktop UI, the damage is done anyway and most will stick with Win 7 until Win 9 comes out and look at it then - especially in the Corporate world), but MS needs to realise that telling customers what they want rather than listening to what they want isn't going to work for them.

Fysh

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

There's an old phrase that comes to mind: "give the people what they want" or if you prefer "The customer is King/always right"

Don't get me wrong, on a Tablet or touch screen Metro isn't half-bad once you delete all the irrelevant crap that's dumped on the home screen by default and until it drops you back to the Desktop where the UI with tiny icons and buttons really doesn't suit stubby fingers, but the point is the CHOICE should never have been removed.

It might be a good idea for MS from a business perspective to unify the UI so there's a common interface, easier development and so on, but the feedback has overwhelmingly shown that in the main, the customers don't like it - and hence why they've made this half-hearted attempt to appease them. That in itself is admission of failure and ultimately who are they making this software for? Paying customers or marketing types/execs/developers?

As I've said before, all that was needed with Win 8.0 was the simple prompt "We've detected that you do not have a touch screen device. Would you like to use the new Metro/Modern interface, or the Classic Windows interface?"

That's it. No need for embarrassing row-backs, no "it's the new ME/Vista" feedback (and personally I think that unless they DO release a SP2 and give in entirely and restore the full Desktop UI, the damage is done anyway and most will stick with Win 7 until Win 9 comes out and look at it then - especially in the Corporate world), but MS needs to realise that telling customers what they want rather than listening to what they want isn't going to work for them.

HAH! Nobody who utters the latter phrase has ever dealt with the general public. :P Seriously, the biggest single root-cause-of-problem I've encountered in 10 years working support at various levels and for various systems & services is "user/customer didn't know what they wanted, but insisted on doing/buying something anyway".

The thing about "customer feedback" is that what you're talking about is "people pissing and moaning on the internet". Which, because it has an almost zero cost, cannot be assumed to be directly related to the actual issues at hand. There's no point trying to cater to internet complaints, because for every single thing that exists, there are people on the internet who'll tell you it's The BEST THING EVER/WORST THING EVARRR and a bunch of things in between. Sometimes these are the same people.

Neither you nor I have, I suspect, seen any form of usefully-gathered structured feedback based on specific testing environments and training options to see how people respond initially, after 2 hours, after 48 hours, and after 2 weeks to the UI. Without that, we can't really say anything worthwhile about user feedback that's going to get taken in any way seriously by the kind of people who decide on business cases and strategies for these kind of projects.

And that's a good thing, because nothing will kill a project faster than trying to respond to unstructured nonsense disguised as "user feedback".

Besides which, it's a UI change that people are moaning about. As a former complainer, I can say with confidence that a large volume of the complaints are down to not spending enough time learning how to use and customise it.

In short, no I don't think that Microsoft should be "giving the customer what they ask for". They should be doing what every good company does, which is to figure out what the customer actually wants (or is likely to want) and deliver that instead.

Consider this - the netbook, already hobbled by MS' insistence that Windows be the OS of choice for many of them, has effectively been consigned to the scrapheap of history by the rise of the tablet. The worst thing Microsoft can do is to continue ignoring the tablet marketplace and let its audience think Windows = desktop. A common UI across desktop, tablet and phone versions makes sense in this context. I'm not arguing that they've hit the bullseye with their implementation, but I understand the idea and appreciate that this far into its deployment, people whingeing on the internet about it are not going to have any effect. Not least because those who upgraded from a previous version of Windows should've tried it out first, and should just bloody downgrade if they dislike it that much.

I do think they should allow us to disable certain touch gestures when not using touch devices. I don't think that should have to equate to a classic interface, especially not when dropping to the desktop already gives you about 80% of that. I just don't see Modern UI as that much of a BFD, to be honest.

Edited to add:

If you think the Modern UI is what's going to delay the uptake of Win8 in the corporate world, you've never done any work in Corporate IT. Corporates routinely operate 1-2 major versions behind the current release, because this facilitates rigorous testing to ensure correct functioning across their entire userbase. When you've got people using enormous legacy SAP systems, Oracle financial systems and so on, such testing is non-optional and can be the difference between "works as expected" and the kind of screw-ups that hit RBS and Ulster Bank over the last couple of years.

For large corporates that also have people doing stuff like fabrication eg using CNC cutters or engineering/architectural design work, such testing is even more important because it can be the difference between a design being safe or a design having a fatal flaw (if eg the handling of floating-point operations changes between versions, this can lead to different outcomes of the same calculation, which can be very problematic indeed if you're doing CAD work for a new skyscraper and are responsible for specifying depth of foundations, minimum tensile strength etc for supporting materials).

uncle_sam_ie

Fysh wrote: »

In short, no I don't think that Microsoft should be "giving the customer what they ask for". They should be doing what every good company does, which is to figure out what the customer actually wants (or is likely to want) and deliver that instead.

People are different and don't want to all be the same so, why force this stupid UI on us. Why not just give people the tools to do what they want from the start.

I don't care if the new UI functions better. I'm a minimalist when it comes to my UI and I don't what to be looking at that ugly metro interface all day.

_Kaiser_

Well to me it's very simple.. despite the big spiel that times had changed and Metro was the future, not 8 months later we are getting back a Start button (if not a start menu)

That to me means the idea failed. It says they delivered what they THOUGHT the customer wanted and the customer told them otherwise.

If MS wants to go after the tablet market then more power to them and on such devices (as I said above), Metro isn't half bad and is in fact a lot more useful than your iPad/Android equivalent in Pro form. RT I would class as a toy that similarly has been rejected by not just consumers but OEMs

But on a standard Desktop or Laptop WITHOUT touch functionality the keyboard and mouse is still where it's at and in that environment, forcing people to use touch-oriented UI's makes no sense, hurts productivity and generates extra support calls.

As you point out, many business/corporates are in fact still on XP for legacy compatibility reasons or in the midst of migrating to Win 7 or have just done so. Given all of that, I can't see any Finance type signing off on fancy touch screen devices for everyone when there's no real benefit to them over Win 7. You surely aren't going to contend that "live tiles" or the MS Store are are worthwhile business reasons to upgrade? If anything they're reasons not to with the potential security risks they pose.

For what it's worth I'm running Win 8 right now and have been since it went RTM on this machine. I spend 100% of my time on the Desktop, have Start8 on the machine so I never have to even SEE Metro and yes it works fine.. but it's no better than Win 7 in any respect in that context, nor is it any faster - it still takes the same 2/3 mins to settle down after I enter my login credentials (though that may be to the resource hog that is Office 2013, but who doesn't install anything on their machine anyway?)

Besides, I'm not saying Metro should be removed from Win 8/.1/.2 but it should be an option for users to use the FULL Classic Desktop interface if they so choose, especially as it shouldn't have cost anything to do this as the functionality was already there and removed.

Telling people that this is what they want/need based on a company's need to shift its latest product and marketing spin rather than listening to what the customer actually wants is never a good idea - and again, the customer actually wants their Start Menu back so while 8.1 is a half-hearted concession to this, I believe that it'll eventually be fully restored without the need for third party add-ons.