Given a bad reference

Miss_diagnosis

Hi

I have been searching for a new job for a while (with current employer 7 years) and eager to get back to working in a law firm (doing accounts).I recently got to reference check stage with a firm of solicitors and they wanted to contact a firm I worked for 8 years ago. The job was mine if reference was good....It was so bad they now retracted the offer.I dont understand..I contacted the referee before they rang her and she said she would be happy to give reference. I dont know exactly what she said..but it was pretty bad apparently. I should note that while I was working there I had a bad time personally (dad became terminally ill) but i tried my best to get on with it.I didnt steal,I didnt lie and she gave me a glowing reference before. Im devestated as im a different person now and trying really hard to improve my life. where do I stand on this? Why would she agree to give a referenace in the first place??

John_Mc

Did the new firm say they were retracting the reference due to a bad reference?

Miss_diagnosis

yeah they did.they wont even take another referance from elsewhere.

John_Mc

A number of things could have happened within the firm which would force them to retract an offer. Maybe a client backed out of a big deal, or their sales/client pipeline dried up.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bad reference reason was just an excuse rather than the real reason. You're perfectly entitled to call the person who gave the reference and ask them politely what type of reference they gave you.

Miss_diagnosis

I was told not to ring her. I dont know why. maybe your right lol!!

John_Mc

Miss_diagnosis wrote: »

I was told not to ring her. I dont know why. maybe your right lol!!

Well if they told you not to contact the referee then that says it all really.

If it does turn out to be B.S, I'd go back to the company and ask for an explanation. It's fine if they decide to retract the offer but at least be honest and upfront about the reasons.

Miss_diagnosis

i got the interview through the college im studying with part time and it was the recrutiment girl in there who told me all this via the employer. she told me not to ring ( im pretty annoyed as you can imagine)

trickymicky

I thought you can never get a bad reference but only for you previous employer to refuse one, maybe im wrong?

ABajaninCork

trickymicky wrote: »

I thought you can never get a bad reference but only for you previous employer to refuse one, maybe im wrong?

I thought so too. I don't know how the law works here though...Mind you if the recruiter told you NOT to call the referee, then I'd be very suspicious. I smell BS.

P_1

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I thought so too. I don't know how the law works here though...Mind you if the recruiter told you NOT to call the referee, then I'd be very suspicious. I smell BS.

Yeah I'd take anything a recruiter says with a pinch of salt to be honest

ABajaninCork

OP - I'd call the referee, if I were you.

Miss_diagnosis

thats what I thought..and the fact is I asked her a couple of days before they rang if she wouldnt mind giving me a ref and she said of course!

Rasmus

The recruiter tells you to not call the employer or the referee? Sounds very odd and underhanded. If you are on good terms with the previous employer, give her a ring and ask what happened (explain you need to know to learn from this).
My bets would be on a dishonest recruiter.

Miss_diagnosis

I dont know...apparently the recruiter and the referee go way back (law is a small industry).I dont even know who the recruiter actually is (I know this sounds bizzare) because they are sacking the current girl so they couldnt tell me .(did interview at the institute)

BuffyBot

trickymicky wrote: »

I thought you can never get a bad reference but only for you previous employer to refuse one, maybe im wrong?

You are.

The reference merely needs to be factual, and could be backed up. If I told a potential employer that "micky was fired for coming into work high on cocaine" and that's what happened, and you were asked to leave the company on that basis - well that's fact.

If I said "oh, I think micky used to come in high on coke and he was a sh*t worker" - that isn't fact, it's opinion and that's dodgy ground.

This is why some companies won't give anything other than "micky worked here from October 2008 - September 2011 as X" type references, and/or won't permit individual staff members outside of HR to provide them etc.

But back to the OP's query: it most likely seems just a convenient "out" for someone.

username123

Nobody can tell you who you can and cant ring. Ring and ask.

ABajaninCork

Just curious, but did the recruiter say why they didn't want you to call your referee?

April O Neill

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OP - I'd call the referee, if I were you.

Seconded. It's not the recruiter's place to tell you not to, IMO. This affects you.

Miss_diagnosis

what should I say?!

ABajaninCork

Just keep the call light and breezy. Call and say you're looking for feedback about the reference.

DO NOT say you didn't get the job because of the (alleged) bad reference, which I think is a crock anyway.

username123

Make like you have heard nothing and simply enquire if the reference contacted the referee and if so - did they seem interested?

Mrs OBumble

Get a friend (who can pull it off) call the referee and get a reference for another (imaginery) job.

'Tis the only way to find out what a referee is really saying.

But I'm with the others, it's probably a convenient excuse.

Personally I'd just let it go: you won't be able to change the company's mind now, you're better of to chalk it up to bad luck and move on, than to stress over it. Sometimes life is just unfair.

Seriously, the amount of adolescent nonsense being spouted in the guise of advice in this thread beggars belief.

OP, you gave a referee's name in good faith, in the belief that the person would not give you a bad reference, based on the fact that they had previously given you a good reference. You even contacted her beforehand to clear your lines with her. You've been informed that she gave you a bad reference. That, to say the least, is irrational - it would take a quite extraordinary set of circumstances for a professional person to give a bad reference for an ex-employee after previously giving them a positive reference.

Therefore, the logical and professional thing to do is to contact the person and level with her. You're not looking for a fight or a debate; you're just trying to figure out if something went wrong. Explain exactly what you were told, and explain that you're puzzled given the previous conversation you had with her. The reality is that you won't be able to do anything with the information, but you need to know what actually went on if you can find out. Aside from any other consideration, if she genuinely gave you a negative reference, you need to know for the simple reason that you won't want to ask her again.

April O Neill

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously, the amount of adolescent nonsense being spouted in the guise of advice in this thread beggars belief.

Most people in the thread gave the same advice you did just now. Contact the referee. Did you read the thread?

April O Neill

April O Neill wrote: »

Most people in the thread gave the same advice you did just now. Contact the referee. Did you read the thread?

Yes, I did, and some of the advice was childish. Ignore it and put it down to bad luck? Get someone to pretend to be an employer with an imaginary job? Call the referee but don't say why you're making the call? Pretend you've heard nothing?

There's no point in being juvenile or unprofessional about this.

ABajaninCork

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I did, and some of the advice was childish. Ignore it and put it down to bad luck? Get someone to pretend to be an employer with an imaginary job? Call the referee but don't say why you're making the call? Pretend you've heard nothing?

There's no point in being juvenile or unprofessional about this.

Childish? What you you mean???

ABajaninCork

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Childish? What you you mean???

Read the four points in my posts with question marks at the end. They were bits of so-called advice given by posters on this thread, in four different posts.

The OP posted a serious query. It deserved a serious response. They were not serious responses.

ABajaninCork

Interesting...

Now I agree with your point about getting someone else to call. I don't see the point of that, and it's a waste of time. I also don't agree that it should ignored. The OP works in a small industry. The fact she *may* have been given a bad reference has serious implications for any job she may subsequently apply for and I think she deserves the truth - or something close to it. She probably won't get the full strength anyway, but it's definitely worth asking.

But I see nothing wrong in asking for feedback. I also happen to think it would not be a good idea for the OP to tell her referee that she didn't get the job because of the bad reference.

Kristopherus

Well, if I got a"bad reference", I'd make a beeline to the author of that reference. If it turns out to be BS, that author would'nt be long telling me so, and would very possibly give me a copy as proof. At the very least, I'd be able to let the recruiter know that I know.It would then be off my chest and, hopefully, would be firmly embedded in the recruiter's.

Op, approach the person who gave the referrence and get clarification.

ABajaninCork

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I also happen to think it would not be a good idea for the OP to tell her referee that she didn't get the job because of the bad reference.

Given the circumstances, it would be unprofessional and a bad idea not to explain what she was told. The OP doesn't know that she didn't get the job because of a bad reference - she knows that she was told the reference was bad, which in this world is not the same thing.

However, she was told that the reference was bad even though she had previously been given a good reference by the same person ("glowing" was the term used) and had cleared her lines with the referee first. That's a clear enough reason for her to level with the referee and explain calmly and professionally why she's calling back to - for want of a better expression - look for feedback. But pretending there's no specific reason for making the call is not the right move in the circumstances. It would be if she was rejected for the job and had no explanation as to why, but she's had an explanation and it doesn't stack up from a rational point of view.

Aced_Up

I'm not sure of the data laws here. But can you not request a copy of the reference? For a fee of course.

I would imagine its like acquiring CCTV footage that you find yourself in, you have a right.

ABajaninCork

It doesn't stack up whichever way you look at it. The OP's referee had previously given an excellent reference. Why burn bridges with her? Just ask for feedback which is entirely reasonable.

ABajaninCork

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It doesn't stack up whichever way you look at it. The OP's referee had previously given an excellent reference. Why burn bridges with her? Just ask for feedback which is entirely reasonable.

Who's asking for bridges to be burned? The OP has been specifically told the reference was bad. If it really was bad, she needs to know. If it wasn't, the referee needs to know. That is the context in which the OP needs to contact the referee to, as you would put it, ask for feedback.

BuffyBot

Aced_Up wrote: »

I'm not sure of the data laws here. But can you not request a copy of the reference? For a fee of course.

I would imagine its like acquiring CCTV footage that you find yourself in, you have a right.

If it's not a written reference, which it doesn't appear to be from the OP's information, how would that work out?

Tar.Aldarion

You should have rang the referee straight away, do it now.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, I did, and some of the advice was childish. Ignore it and put it down to bad luck? Get someone to pretend to be an employer with an imaginary job? Call the referee but don't say why you're making the call? Pretend you've heard nothing?

There's no point in being juvenile or unprofessional about this.

Sometimes people who say they will give you a good reference don't. Imagine if the reference check went somelike like:

Did Freda Fish work for you? When and what was her role?
"Yes she worked for me. Yes she was a widget-maker from X to Y"

Would you hire her again?
"ahh"
(twenty second pause)
"Ahh, yes ... of coursssssse I would"


Or imagine if the official reference check conversation was fine, but over a wine that evening the referee tells the HR person "yeah, she was fine at the job, but the little t*** was riding half the company" (or whatever other insults you want)


Now, what do you think that the referee will say when the OPs calls them up and ask about the conversation? The truth? Yeah, right.



Validating referees whose real opinions you is standard job-seeker behaviour. Unprofessional? perhaps. Childish? Hardly. Necessary? Yes, in some cases.

In the OP's situation, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that s/he can do to get the job. It's simply not going to offered again. So moving on, and ensuring that the next job application won't get a bad reference, is the only option.

Neyite

I would go back to the person giving the reference.
It sounds dodgy, and if I had agreed to give a reference for someone and had previously provided a glowing one, I would be beyond annoyed if a recrutier was claiming that I said negative things that I didnt.

Dont be accusatory, just say that the recruiter insisted you not contact her, which you felt was quite strange and wanted to discuss it with her herself.

spurious

Word of a person you worked for and previously had a good reference from versus
word of a recruiter you hardly know.

No brainer really. Ring the referee.

the_syco

trickymicky wrote: »

I thought you can never get a bad reference but only for you previous employer to refuse one, maybe im wrong?

Only if it's true.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally I'd just let it go: you won't be able to change the company's mind now, you're better of to chalk it up to bad luck and move on, than to stress over it. Sometimes life is just unfair.

Best for the OP to know if the reference it to be relied on or not, tbh. Get a mate to ring her up looking for a reference, and see what she says.

If it all goes well, ring the reference, and query about the first (real) reference call, and not the second (fake) one.

Miss_diagnosis

wow. seems I sparked a debate!

firstly it wasnt a written referance.according to the recruiter a bad written refereance is in fact illegal.

secondly. I did actually consider getting someone else to ring and pretend to be looking. for a referance. (or asking the recruiter to do it)

Thirdly- I spoke to an old collegue from the firm who apparently is getting bad referrances from them too..and she worked there years.

I worked in this place for about 2 1/2 years. I'll admit i left suddenly (dad died) but they begged me to stay and a month later threw me a goodbye party with an open bar (celtic tiger days!)

Apologies for my inability to spell referance. Im starting my exams on monday so my brain is only functioning numerically!

Also -I havent called the referree as I promised the recruiter I wouldnt. perhaps she wasnt meant to tell me I got a bad reference. She has been brilliant in getting me interviews so I dont want to get her in any grief.

ABajaninCork

Miss_diagnosis wrote: »

wow. seems I sparked a debate!

firstly it wasnt a written referance.according to the recruiter a bad written refereance is in fact illegal.

secondly. I did actually consider getting someone else to ring and pretend to be looking. for a referance. (or asking the recruiter to do it)

Thirdly- I spoke to an old collegue from the firm who apparently is getting bad referrances from them too..and she worked there years.

I worked in this place for about 2 1/2 years. I'll admit i left suddenly (dad died) but they begged me to stay and a month later threw me a goodbye party with an open bar (celtic tiger days!)

Apologies for my inability to spell referance. Im starting my exams on monday so my brain is only functioning numerically!

Also -I havent called the referree as I promised the recruiter I wouldnt. perhaps she wasnt meant to tell me I got a bad reference. She has been brilliant in getting me interviews so I dont want to get her in any grief.

Not being funny OP, but the recruiter is the least of your problems. I seriously doubt she'd give two hoots about you if the positions were reversed.

You need to make YOU the priority. This is affecting your career. And you need to find out by any means possible why you were given the bad reference. (if indeed it's true!)

If there's a history of ex-employees getting bad references from this company, then maybe you shouldn't take the risk again and line up someone else.

Miss_diagnosis

If there's a history of ex-employees getting bad references from this company, then maybe you shouldn't take the risk again and line up someone else.[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt have given her as a ref at all only they asked for her because of the previous law experience.its hard to give referances now as Ive been with my current employer for years...and previous refs are irrelavent.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sometimes people who say they will give you a good reference don't. Imagine if the reference check went somelike like:

Did Freda Fish work for you? When and what was her role?
"Yes she worked for me. Yes she was a widget-maker from X to Y"

Would you hire her again?
"ahh"
(twenty second pause)
"Ahh, yes ... of coursssssse I would"


Or imagine if the official reference check conversation was fine, but over a wine that evening the referee tells the HR person "yeah, she was fine at the job, but the little t*** was riding half the company" (or whatever other insults you want)


Now, what do you think that the referee will say when the OPs calls them up and ask about the conversation? The truth? Yeah, right.



Validating referees whose real opinions you is standard job-seeker behaviour. Unprofessional? perhaps. Childish? Hardly. Necessary? Yes, in some cases.

In the OP's situation, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that s/he can do to get the job. It's simply not going to offered again. So moving on, and ensuring that the next job application won't get a bad reference, is the only option.

Nope, you're still not managing to make this advice look anything other than unprofessional and immature. This would apply in any case, but in this instance you really do need to go back and thoroughly re-read the OP. Look for the word "glowing", and work it out from there.

This isn't about the job the OP didn't get; that's gone regardless of what went on. It's about establishing the accuracy of the recruiter's claim that someone who previously gave the OP a positive reference has now given her a negative one - in a professional and grown-up way.

lesserspottedchloe

If I was you I would actually get a friend to ring and pretend to be a prospective employer.

Years ago I was offered a job (after three interviews) and the recruiter told me she just needed to check my references as a formality and that the job was mine..she phoned me back later in the day to inform me that one of my references had 'slated' me and she had no choice but to retract the job offer...This reference was in relation to a position I held for two years, I never had any issues with the boss or colleagues and was generally well liked. The manager had been slightly annoyed that I was leaving for another position as she 'thought I would be there for years' but she said she understood and would give me a great reference...

I contacted her myself and asked why she gave me such a bad reference and she flat out denied everything and accused the other company of lying. I believed this for a while as it seemed so ridiculous for her to do something so nasty to a person who had been a friend and a decent employee..

Eventually a friend of my fathers caught her in the act when he rang asking for a reference for me-she lied and said I was lazy, unpunctual, ect and when he asked her 'why she had agreed to give me a reference if this was the case' she hung up on him.

I really hope this isn't the case with your situation but you need to make sure before you lose out on further opportunities.

Cushie Butterfield

Miss_diagnosis wrote: »

Also -I havent called the referree as I promised the recruiter I wouldnt. perhaps she wasnt meant to tell me I got a bad reference. She has been brilliant in getting me interviews so I dont want to get her in any grief.

All the interviews in the world are of no use to you if you don't secure a job out of them, so it would be in your best interest to get to the root of the problem before any more opportunities are ruined. How you go about this is up to you, but remember you don't owe the recruiter anything, & before you choose another recruiter you need to find out if there is a problem with your referee.

You could always ask the referee to give you an up to date written reference. If it's glowing give a copy to the recruiter & ask her to comment. It's your career that's at stake here, so you shouldn't feel guilty about trying to advance, or to protect your character.

dartup

MOD-NOTE:

Copyright material removed. Read the original at http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/WWIndividualArticle.aspx?ParentID=80&CID=132&ForumTypeID=1987

ABajaninCork

That's interesting, and good to know. Do you have any links/references? Thanks!

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to the European case.

Cushie Butterfield

ABajaninCork wrote: »

That's interesting, and good to know. Do you have any links/references? Thanks!

Copied & pasted from an article written on 2/8/2006 by Debbie O'Halloran on irishjobs.ie

Miss_diagnosis

I got to the bottom of it in the end. Turns out the referree and the reference checker know each other. reference was given "off the record". I wasnt meant to know about it.time to move onwards and upwards!

Eoin

Miss_diagnosis wrote: »

I got to the bottom of it in the end. Turns out the referree and the reference checker know each other. reference was given "off the record". I wasnt meant to know about it.time to move onwards and upwards!

Interesting - so the "off the record" reference wasn't as positive as you were expecting then?

PlainP

Miss_diagnosis wrote: »

I got to the bottom of it in the end. Turns out the referree and the reference checker know each other. reference was given "off the record". I wasnt meant to know about it.time to move onwards and upwards!

If the reference was supposed to be off record why was it used ? You didn't get the job because of it???