Question re Garda being somewhat disrespectful to my father?

Morpheus

Hi all,

Firstly, im not here to disrespect anyone, I appreciate the crap Gardaí are dealing with and the job that they do.

yesterday my 68 year old biker dad was out with his mate in my home town on their motorcycles.

They pulled up outside a shop where a cash security van was stopped with a marked garda ford fiesta cash escort (they actually didnt realise this until later when Gardai stopped them)

Anyway at the lights, my father signalled his mate to go ahead and he would follow him using hand signals (theyre members of the DF motorcycle club and like using hand signals etc when out on the bikes)

Anyway a short distance outside town on a narrow country road, and my dad spots blues in his mirror and assuming that they are on way to an incident moves over to let them by.

now he's doing about 40mph at this stage.

The garda patrol car slams on the brakes and pulls in right in front of him.

My dad gets a shock, he has nowhere except the ditch to his left or the back of the car to go into so he hammers his brakes so hard that the back wheel leaves the ground and slams back down but somehow he manages to control the bike and just stopped short of ploughing into the rear of the garda car.

He immediately puts the kick stand down and hops off.

Garda approaches him with a flurry of questions basically insinuating that the two of them were casing out the cash van, at this stage my dad has to think hard to remember that he'd even passed a cash van. He actually couldnt believe the garda was serious.

his mate meanwhile comes back on his bike (these lads are in their 60s mind) and sits off a distance watching whats going on.

The garda ascertains that they are two local retired men out enjoying the sunshine on the bikes and not hardened biker crims casing out cash escorts but runs a check on their details anyway.

My dads bikes kickstand suddenly gives way in the gully at the side of the road and the bike begins to topple over, my dad who has post polio syndrome has very little strength in his left arm and leg, and is unable to stop the bike from slamming into the ground - resulting in breaking the bikes side faring.

Instead of assisting my father in picking up his bike, the cop smart ar$edly questions his capability as a bike rider wondering is he able to use a bike. My father a biker of 40 years, is truly embarrassed as he struggles to right the bike, the gardai just stare at him before getting back into their car and they head off leaving my dads mate to help get the bike back on its wheels. The faring is fixable with some glue and a polish but my dads pride has taken a kicking at the hands of the very people who are supposed to protect him. He has never come to garda attention, has mates who are both gardai (retired) and army and has been a law abiding hard working man all of his life.

Now he is truly mad and wanted to storm down the station to give someone an earful.

Ive actually calmed him down and asked him to allow me to speak with some of my mates who are gardai and also to post to this forum for some measured responses.

He at this stage at least wants to complain to a super in the station about the general way he was laughed at when the bike crumpled over and particularly the manner in which the garda pulled him over almost causing him to flip over the handlebars and the disrespect that he was shown.

My dads a quiet enough bloke and is old enough to have been raised to believe that teachers, priests and gardai are always right - if you know what I mean... he sort of feels he'd like to do something but that is there any point really? Aside from that he is a 68 year old man, at least twice the garda's age and deserves the respect that most older people should receive.

Anyway,

With all due respect, what options are open to him to make a complaint of some sort so this bloke at least gets a slap on the wrist for being a bit of a d*ck in his demeanor? I just think that the garda could have handled it better and whilst I totally understand the fear/frustration/anger that some in the force feel especially with whats happened so far this year, I think that in this case he blew it.


Im annoyed that my father could have come off his bike and right now be in a hospital bed with a broken leg instead of a bad mood with a broken bike.

thanks in advance.

discus

Unfortunately, you're dad met a Garda who was doing his job, but who is a prick also. Just as your dad served with some fine soldiers, but could remember well the 1 or 2 jobsworth arsewipes who let down the uniform.

Remind him of this, because if he's giving anyone an earful, it'll probably be a garda who isn't a prick, because the bad ones never let themselves get into a position where they recieve the bad end of things.

ardmacha

There must be procedure for stopping people and executing an emergency stop in front of them doesn't sound like it. Surely, putting on the siren and flagging someone down is proper procedure. I'd complain on this basis.

cursai

Sorry to hear about this occurring. Really lets the rest of the Gardai down.

timmywex

TBH I can see where the garda is coming from in terms of the hard stop/attitude,

From his point of view it well looked like possibly casing out the cash van with the hand signals etc and they needed to put a hard stop on him, bearing in mind he could have been armed, try to get away or anything really. (Watch some drugs stops from UK tv for example where they all jump out & start smashing windows etc)

Once it became apparent this wasnt the case then fair enough, not great form not helping with the bike or an apology but ya get them in all walk of life, a phonecall/letter to the local super id say would do the job

Im not a biker either and know little about them tbh but id be questioning capabilities if theres no strength in one side of the body, but thats just natural thought - maybe he's completely fine riding it! Definitely woulda helped pick bike up though after!

Just something to think about from the other point of view

srsly78

Report the gardai for dangerous driving.

pwurple

Bikes can be extremely heavy. It can easily take two people with normal strength to lift them up. That garda sounds like he just wanted to have a go at this man. That kind of thing does nothing for public perception.

discus

cursai wrote: »

Sorry to hear about this occurring. Really lets the rest of the Gardai down.

Does it really? Only if we let it.

goldie fish

It is inexcusable, but not unusual. Some gardai. like average members of the public, have quite a bad attitude towards motorcyclists and assume we are all up to no good.

SCOOP 64

You should print out and send your post off that local garda station,as you seem to explain what happen well, to be treated like the way your dad was, you should complain,the more people who don't complain about this guard the worst he will get over the years.

Morpheus

Thanks everyone.

Figured a quiet word with the super might be enough.

I also understand the hard stop etc but just thought that it was somewhat ignorant once it was realised these guys were not a threat at all.

Anyway, my dad's opinion of the force is not an issue, his opinion of this individual on the other hand is!

Again thanks for sharing your opinions.

miller50841

The Guard probably felt a bit stupid when he realized how old he was but suppose some are never to old to be crims no offense by the way;)

He probably wanted to get away as quick as possible but yes could have handled it better.

Hope your father is ok op.

Morpheus

Yes my dad is fine, just hurt his pride more than anything. At least its not the USA, he couldve been tasered first and then handcuffed before they decided that no, he wasnt the generals brother

Morpheus

Morpheus wrote: »

Yes my dad is fine, just hurt his pride more than anything. At least its not the USA, he couldve been tasered first and then handcuffed before they decided that no, he wasnt the generals brother

You should have let him go to the Super.

SB2013

He can complain to the Super or to the Ombudsman. Garda appears to have a bit of an attitude problem alright. Although he may have a point about the bike. If your father cannot handle the weight of it due to his age or disability it might be safer for him to give it up.

St. Leibowitz

I've been on the receiving end of a prick like that. Major attitude, and I was stopped for no good reason (genuinely ..., he insisted I was driving with my lights off, I wasn't). He was visibly disgusted when I had my licence on me, and didn't even look at it, just walked away back to his unmarked car.

On the other hand, though very infrequent, any dealings I've had with other members have been a pleasure and they have always behaved very professionally, even in informal circumstances.

But that prick ... he's the one that I remember. My face is reddening now just thinking of it ...

Morpheus

SB2013 wrote: »

He can complain to the Super or to the Ombudsman. Garda appears to have a bit of an attitude problem alright. Although he may have a point about the bike. If your father cannot handle the weight of it due to his age or disability it might be safer for him to give it up.

The bike is a 1200cc

the kick stand was down and it was resting on the edge of the road,

the ground eventually gave way under the (side) kickstand and it tipped over.

Id like to see any man grab his bike mid fall and do anything other than slow the inevitable from happening.

Bikes weigh a LOT.

My dads "disability" doesnt effect him that much but he was struggling to drag it out of the ditch and right it. The Garda couldve helped instead of making a shoddy remark at him thats all.

mathepac

Sorry to hear about your Dad's misfortunes at the hands of a bad apple.

I'd be ++ with the Super and the Ombudsman if necessary, but first I'd encourage you Dad to write down every detail of the events of the day, times and places, all that sort of detail. Go back and take pictures of tyre marks where he was stopped and where his bike toppled.

Check with his buddy about his observations and corroborate times places etc. Be clear about the sequences of events and try to be as accurate as possible about the exact words the Guard(s) used. If they swore at him , record it, if he swore back at them say it. Be clinical, just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

He should also in summing up state how he felt after the hard stop, after he was left struggling with his bike and how he feels on reflection. Confine the emotion to this part of the document e.g. "What started out as a gentle bike spin with my pal on a spring day turned into a nightmare of....and I was left at the side of the road with my bike in the ditch feeling....If my pal hadn't been close by I'd have been stranded. Having been a faithful servant to the State for x years here I was in my so-called golden years ...|" Anyway you get the idea.

I hate stories about very young or older people being bullied and disrespected. I hope your Dad can put a full stop at the end of this unsavoury event which unfortunately isn't over for him just yet.

ambo112

Gardai are servants of the public and should perform in a professional and courteous manner.

The question here is proportionality, is it reasonable and proportionate that the Guard in question had sufficient evidence/reason to suspect your father was casing the van?

If so, were the actions he/she took to stop your father reasonable? It may be considered dangerous driving, they are not exempt from driving in a safe manner, no matter what the emergency is, hence advanced driver training.

There is a requirement to be professional and courteous, so once it was established that your father was not suspicious they have an onus to care and be helpful to him, could be a discipline matter.

I would certainly feel that they are responsible for the damage cause.

Every job has bad employees and not reporting these individuals only allows them to continue.

The vast majority if our courageous gardai are excellent professionals and exemplary members of society.

Good luck.

SB2013

Morpheus wrote: »

The bike is a 1200cc

the kick stand was down and it was resting on the edge of the road,

the ground eventually gave way under the (side) kickstand and it tipped over.

Id like to see any man grab his bike mid fall and do anything other than slow the inevitable from happening.

Bikes weigh a LOT.

My dads "disability" doesnt effect him that much but he was struggling to drag it out of the ditch and right it. The Garda couldve helped instead of making a shoddy remark at him thats all.

I'm not disputing that at all. I was just going by your own description of your father (my dad who has post polio syndrome has very little strength in his left arm and leg) and what happened. If he can't handle the weight of the bike it may not be a good idea for him to be riding one.

ambo112

SB2013 wrote: »

I'm not disputing that at all. I was just going by your own description of your father (my dad who has post polio syndrome has very little strength in his left arm and leg) and what happened. If he can't handle the weight of the bike it may not be a good idea for him to be riding one.

I would say that the practicality of him having a bike and handling it is a matter for him and no one else.

I am sure he could handle the weight when the bike is upright, not many bikers have a cause to lift their bike up from the ground.

Many fully capable people would have difficulty with this. He has a license and a doctor who hasn't taken the license away from him.

Just playing devils advocate.

goldie fish

SB2013 wrote: »

I'm not disputing that at all. I was just going by your own description of your father (my dad who has post polio syndrome has very little strength in his left arm and leg) and what happened. If he can't handle the weight of the bike it may not be a good idea for him to be riding one.

I am an able bodied person, with no disabilities. If my bike (ex army Deauville) goes beyond a certain point, it is going on the ground, and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent that. It's called gravity.

The phenomenon, amongst bikers is known as "Stopped and Dropped" and is a source of much pointing and laughing. It's happened me twice, once at a petrol station, another when I stopped at the side of the road and didn't notice the pothole where I was intending to put my foot. Ended up pinned under the bike, laughing my arse off. Nobody stopped to help either, apart from one who walked over, saw me laughing, got back into his car and drove away.

SCOOP 64

Yeah, once a big bike goes to far, even the fittest biker will have to let it go, had a cbr1000,droped it, it was like slow motion ,nothing i could do, was 25yrs old at time , took 2 of has to pick it up.

bravestar

goldie fish wrote: »

I am an able bodied person, with no disabilities. If my bike (ex army Deauville) goes beyond a certain point, it is going on the ground, and there is nothing anyone can do to prevent that. It's called gravity.

The phenomenon, amongst bikers is known as "Stopped and Dropped" and is a source of much pointing and laughing. It's happened me twice, once at a petrol station, another when I stopped at the side of the road and didn't notice the pothole where I was intending to put my foot. Ended up pinned under the bike, laughing my arse off. Nobody stopped to help either, apart from one who walked over, saw me laughing, got back into his car and drove away.

Have some memories of a similar incident. The only time I ever came off a bike. I think the only reason I was able to get it back upright was the super strength I got from pure embarrassment.

SB2013

ambo112 wrote: »

I would say that the practicality of him having a bike and handling it is a matter for him and no one else.

I am sure he could handle the weight when the bike is upright, not many bikers have a cause to lift their bike up from the ground.

Many fully capable people would have difficulty with this. He has a license and a doctor who hasn't taken the license away from him.

Just playing devils advocate.

Like I said, I was going on the ops description alone. If a person has limited strength in one side of their body then a motor bike is not a good choice of vehicle. And no it's not a matter for the person to decide on their own. When a person is driving a vehicle they shouldn't be in public, it's everyone's problem.

2012paddy2012

SB2013 wrote: »

He can complain to the Super or to the Ombudsman. Garda appears to have a bit of an attitude problem alright. Although he may have a point about the bike. If your father cannot handle the weight of it due to his age or disability it might be safer for him to give it up.

Couple of points. Nobody here was present at the incident. Due to the amount of bikes being used in cash in transit robberies Gardaí were duty bound to check them out. Majority of Garda (mostly very young inexperienced) are driving patrol cars with absolutely no training. This is wrong and may have contributed to their manner of driving. There is no excuse for members not being polite to members of the public. I would go to the members sergeant and let it be known. It may stop other members of the public from being spoken to in that fashion. I presume that the motorcyclist has informed Doctor/driving licence section of his most unfortunate condition which may or may not contribute to his manner of driving. A lot of people don't e.g.. people with heart conditions etc. say nothing and some should not be on the road. This in reference to what was allegedly said by one guard. Should Garda follow that up and inform insurance company the motorcyclist may be restricted or not covered to drive in the first place. I don't wish to sound cruel but it is a valid point mentioned. I have come across impolite Gardaí myself on the road and its a complete let down to all. suppose bad apples in every barrel.

2012paddy2012

ambo112 wrote: »

I would say that the practicality of him having a bike and handling it is a matter for him and no one else.

I am sure he could handle the weight when the bike is upright, not many bikers have a cause to lift their bike up from the ground.

Many fully capable people would have difficulty with this. He has a license and a doctor who hasn't taken the license away from him.

Just playing devils advocate.

I would completely disagree with this. It most certainly is a matter of other people if a driver has not full control over his vehicle should a child run out in front of him he needs to be able to stop. IF illness has weakened ability to for example pull the front brake quickly and with full power to stop cannot be done , this is everybody's business and unless medical opinion is that it is not a safety issue.

misses with rifles

SB2013 wrote: »

He can complain to the Super or to the Ombudsman. Garda appears to have a bit of an attitude problem alright. Although he may have a point about the bike. If your father cannot handle the weight of it due to his age or disability it might be safer for him to give it up.

no depending on the bike a man in his prime would struggle to pick it up on its side
why give up something he enjoys

micosoft

FFS talk of the Ombudsman. Let's not second guess the stop - Cash in Transit robberies are a big problem in this country.
We all accept the Garda had a bad attitude. Maybe he had a bad day, maybe he is in the middle of a bad divorce. Maybe he has trouble ends meeting. Maybe he was at an RTA the previous week and still traumatised. Who knows, but that particular day at that particular time he had a bad attitude. A single point of time. Not defending him but one incident does not a long life prick make.

What I don't get on boards etc is that there are a group of people in this country who think Gardai, their managers at work, anybody in authority in effect should be automans completely devoid of emotion & incapable of making mistakes... and think because they have one bad experience they can tar an entire group of people as arrogent/awful/insert generalisation here. They never reflect on the fact that they have bad days as well as good days too but hold other people to a level of accountability that they themselves would never hold themselves to (or have a sting of excuses).

The solution is a word with the local Sarge. Not the deputy commissioner, not the Ombudsman, not the European Court of Human Rights. The local Sarge who will have a quiet word and note it.

* This directed at the OP, he is simply asking for advice. Just the posters who have had a bad incident and now ALL Garda are p***ks.

ambo112

SB2013 wrote: »

Like I said, I was going on the ops description alone. If a person has limited strength in one side of their body then a motor bike is not a good choice of vehicle. And no it's not a matter for the person to decide on their own. When a person is driving a vehicle they shouldn't be in public, it's everyone's problem.

Ill rephrase it, the practicality side of handling the bike i.e. lifting it, moving it etc is his decision no one else's. like I also said, not many people can lift a bike that size off the ground when it's on it's side.

As for weakness etc... Like I also said, he has a license which means he is fully capable of driving a bike as much as you or I am and has passed the prescribed exams.

Also the left arm is weak which controls the clutch which won't affect braking - just going by the description.

SB2013

ambo112 wrote: »

As for weakness etc... Like I also said, he has a license which means he is fully capable of driving a bike as much as you or I am and has passed the prescribed exams.

No. It means he may have been capable of passing a test when he got his licence. Or he may have just been given one like so many others. In either case it does not mean he is currently able.

ambo112

SB2013 wrote: »

No. It means he may have been capable of passing a test when he got his licence. Or he may have just been given one like so many others. In either case it does not mean he is currently able.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one :-)

Morpheus

postpolio syndrome is a lifelong disability.

however my dad has been medically certified to ride motorcycles of any class

he has done a garda instructor led advanced motorcycle course and a number of other advanced rider courses too

he has ridden all over europe for the last 20 years at least and has about 40 years motorcycle experience in total.

he doesnt tar all gardai with the same brush because of one incident. for one because about 10 people that we both know and are friends with, are GS and are not d*cks.
and two, because he's not stupid and realises that there are bad eggs in every basket and that we can all have a bad day ... in this case also this individual may have been having that bad day or maybe my father and him just didnt see eye to eye over the reasons for or method used to execute the sudden stop, when it was plainly obvious from the outset that my father wasnt trying to get away!!!

long story short, this one is chalked down to experience for both him and myself. Mods can close the thread now if they wish. Thanks to all who replied with information on how to approach and execute an unofficial complaint about such an incident as this one.

regards
etc

Turner

Morpheus.

I have read the entire thread.

I would suggest your father sends a letter to the Superintendent in charge of the area where this incident happened outlining what happened and how he felt during and after the incident.

All Gardai have mothers/fathers and elderly relatives (some of which can be anywhere from quite dithery to outright dangerous on the roads)

No matter what happened I would not like any of my relatives treated the way your father was by one of my so called colleagues.

If you want me to point you in the direction of the Superintendent in charge, pm me where this incident happened.

Turner

Morpheus

Hi quick update

My father got to speak with the driver of the garda car.

Its all been sorted. I'd also like to point out that the I've just found out that the driver actually did assist in righting the bike for my dad.

He is satisfied now and both parties got to explain what happened and give their side of the story.

Amicable and very civil settling of incident and no super etc needed to be involved.

Thanks all for your help.

2012paddy2012

"Couple of points. Nobody here was present at the incident" As I said in my reply to this minute.

When people do not present the facts properly this is what happens. Thank god no one went to the ombudsman who
no doubt would be like a dog with a bone to the poor auld Guard who now it appears did nothing wrong.


Aside from this .....People should be prosecuted each time a false or misleading frivolous complaint is made.