Geordan Murphy to retire

Eoin

There was a lot more to Dempsey than that though. Edit: doesn't matter though; congrats to Geordan on a brilliant career.

PhatPiggins

Eoin wrote: »

There was a lot more to Dempsey than that though. Edit: doesn't matter though; congrats to Geordan on a brilliant career.

There was, he was sublime at times for Leinster. Under utilised for Ireland though.

scratchy36924

ive watched both these fullbacks for years for club and country. and can't understand the dempsey can do no wrong attitude he was solid under a high ball but every fullback is. saying the two of them are world class fullbacks is only hafe way true as world class players form this part of the world will play for the lions at least once. murphy went in 2005 and this was the tour when they brought every player who had a cap. he was truly wasted by ireland as we only ever seen sparks of what he could do. the dummy to create space for o driscolls winning try against england in 2005 or the coming off the bench to turn the match around against wales in 2006 in 60 seconds or being the best player by a mile against scotland in 2007 and man of the match in 2008. i would have loved to see eddie put confidence in him as he did with o gara or darcy when they made the odd mistake but he had him in and out of the team every week. we had the best 15 in europe over the 15 years voted by the ERC and players that played against him. irish writers player of the year 2003 and we let him rot on the bench over a player who contributed nothing to our attack except the overlap and limited our play untill we became the predictable mess at the 2007 RWC and were shown how to play by the french. will miss murphy tho one of a kind fullback

Buer

Been discussed to death. EOS put massive faith in Murphy and made him his first choice, dropping Dempsey. Murphy suited the game EOS wanted to play much more.

At one point, he gave him 17 consecutive starts at full back. The issue was that Murphy was not delivering. He was getting a lot of criticism and eventually, after a horror show in NZ, Murphy was dropped in 2006. He still was rotated for the starting berth after that but the faith was gone in him.

Wonderfully gifted player who made too many costly mistakes at test level.

bilston

Demspey was very dependable, he was always in the right place at the right time (a bit like Halfpenny in the Lions series) and was great under the high ball, he was also very quick and it should be pointed out that he scored quite a few tries for Ireland as well! He didn't have the feet or the footballing ability of Murphy though. As someone above said if you combined their strengths into one you'd get one heck of a player.

scratchy36924

i remember the NZ 2006 tour it was a white wash but nothing like the horror show of the last tour i remember o gara getting boshed over by carter or mcalister to go in for a try around the 75 minute mark in the first test i think. a one on one miss tackle 5 meters out. before the next test the NZ press brought the issue up with EOS he responded by saying hes worked on his tackling all week. o gara stared all 3 tests all the 2007 six nations games. EOS put confidence in him if he make a mistake. ive seen darcy make as many mistakes as murphy such as the mistackle against the french in 2011 six nations or dropped balls but hes a good player who will help the team in the long run with the confidence of the coach. shane willams is an example of a great player who was shunned by wales up until his world class display at the 2003 world cup where would he be if he had been given the murphy treatment for is entire career. i blame the irish coaching staff to hold some responsibility in not getting the best out of him as leicester and the lions got the best out of him and we could'nt. it was horrible to watch as EOS set double standards for players. and if dempsey was anything like hafepenny he would have been on 3 lions tours as he was around for 2001 2005 and could have bowed out on the 2009 tour as solid as halfpenny but never realy came out of his comfort zone as a player and we payed for it in 2007 RWC as every player was conserved and lacked imagination except BOD

clsmooth

Well we didn't really have an option when ROG made mistakes. To me Geordan was never quite the same player after his leg break in 2003. He was amazing that season.

CatFromHue

The difference between ROG, D'arcy and Murphy during that phase was that ROG and D'arcy had no real competition for their places. EOS could have dropped them but would have had to start Paddy Wallace at 10 and put one of Trimble or Horgan in the center.

Buer

scratchy36924 wrote: »

i remember the NZ 2006 tour it was a white wash but nothing like the horror show of the last tour i remember o gara getting boshed over by carter or mcalister to go in for a try around the 75 minute mark in the first test i think. a one on one miss tackle 5 meters out. before the next test the NZ press brought the issue up with EOS he responded by saying hes worked on his tackling all week. o gara stared all 3 tests all the 2007 six nations games. EOS put confidence in him if he make a mistake. ive seen darcy make as many mistakes as murphy such as the mistackle against the french in 2011 six nations or dropped balls but hes a good player who will help the team in the long run with the confidence of the coach. shane willams is an example of a great player who was shunned by wales up until his world class display at the 2003 world cup where would he be if he had been given the murphy treatment for is entire career. i blame the irish coaching staff to hold some responsibility in not getting the best out of him as leicester and the lions got the best out of him and we could'nt. it was horrible to watch as EOS set double standards for players.

Murphy did not have a good Lions tour. He couldn't make the team except for the final test due to injuries and had a shocker and was walked through for a try. He was roasted for his performance.

In the 2006 tour, when he was finally dropped (17 starts in a row, how much more faith do you want?), he had a poor two games against NZ. He coughed up possession, didn't spark in attack and missed tackles. I don't know how much more faith can be shown in an underperforming player. You can hold the Irish staff responsible for not getting the best out of him but it's funny how the rest of the back line from 2004-2007 was on fire. The staff didn't turn over possession or miss the tackles leading to tries or throw the try interceptions.

He was a supremely gifted player but his head seemed to desert him at times at the top level.

The difference between ROG and Murphy is that, for Murphy's position, you had an experienced, international full back who was extremely consistent to come in. For ROG, there was nobody. He was absolutely vital and he was also playing superbly in the 2006/7 season, probably the best he ever did.

And I'd be very dubious of the claim that you've seen D'Arcy make the same mistakes as Murphy. I can think of two bad mistakes by D'Arcy which are the bounced tackle against France and the intercept in the last minute against the USA. I can think of about a dozen off the top of my head for GM.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

And I'd be very dubious of the claim that you've seen D'Arcy make the same mistakes as Murphy. I can think of two bad mistakes by D'Arcy which are the bounced tackle against France and the intercept in the last minute against the USA. I can think of about a dozen off the top of my head for GM.

I wouldn't be surprised if Murphy made as many monstrous errors in the '06 France game as D'Arcy made in his career. He wasn't even dropped after it.

scratchy36924

yeah i remember the days when the irish team picked itself ROG was a good player who became better because of the structure in irish rugby as he had little or no competition his entire career and gained all the exsperiance he could which saw munster and ireland do very well as he had been in positions like grand slam showdowns and HC semis and finals so many times and got the rewards near the end of his career .outside paddy wallace i dont think anybody else got a shot at the 10 shirt at that time. i rememder one game he played murphy at 10 for the last 10 mins against argentina in a warm up before the 2007 RWC

scratchy36924

i remember the 2006 france match murphy had one intercept and a collision on the ground with one of this own players(hardly his fault) every player made a mistake that day it was 40 points to 3 at hafetime with something like 6 french trys each one an irish mistake a different player was at fault each time. murphys lions tour was very good compare to some on the tour he was the stand out back outside of wilkinson and DH against argentina where darcy and oli smith couldnt catch a pass for there life and put away some NZ clubs in the warm up games with well worked team trys to say he had a bad lions tours a bit harsh and over critical as he did everything he could have done and did it very well. as i was saying i think a lot of irish players got everything they could from the irish set up dempsey included it was a tight nit set team that picked itself ireland and leinster. the down side to this was that when players like darcy would play beside the likes of oli smith it didnt work as hes played inside BOD for his entire career. dempsey was always in his comfort zone i could nt see him surviving outside ireland in the super 14 as it was at the time or the top 14 mabe in the GP as his skills are more valued for the style of rugby they played. the up side to this was the irish backline played week in and week out at leinster so the irish coaching team did not have too big a task to get them to fire compere it to england at that time who had players from every club that was a hard task which andy robinson failed in and played some shambolic stuff in doing so. but you have to ask the question how could we not integrate 1 player into the setup at the coaching level who was a world class player and in fairness ive watched geordan most of his career to say he made mistake after mistake is just hyper critical cause ive seen players who did make mistake after mistake and he was not one of them

CatFromHue

International rugby is a step up from club rugby, being a good (or very good) club doesn't mean you'll be a good international.

irishbucsfan

I never accepted that argument. The Irish management team of those days did not make the most of Murphy's talent. Now that might be a criticism of Murphy as much as them, and we'll never know the truth, but anyone who saw him in his prime could see what talent he had.

jm08

scratchy36924 wrote: »

yeah i remember the days when the irish team picked itself ROG was a good player who became better because of the structure in irish rugby as he had little or no competition his entire career and gained all the exsperiance he could which saw munster and ireland do very well as he had been in positions like grand slam showdowns and HC semis and finals so many times and got the rewards near the end of his career .outside paddy wallace i dont think anybody else got a shot at the 10 shirt at that time. i rememder one game he played murphy at 10 for the last 10 mins against argentina in a warm up before the 2007 RWC

David Humphreys retired from international rugby in 2006, so ROG had competition for the first 6 years of his international career. In Munster, he had Jeremy Staunton for the first couple of years.

edit - Re Geordan: I think he might have been a world class player before his leg break before the world cup in 2003. He was never the same after that.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

edit - Re Geordan: I think he might have been a world class player before his leg break before the world cup in 2003. He was never the same after that.

He was the same after that. For years. Just never under EOS.

Buer

Sorry, you're remembering things very peculiarly about that France game and the Lions tour. Murphy was awful for 3 tries in that game, making bad mistakes. He was roasted for the first try of the game when Rougerie stood him up, one on one, and waltzed past him on the outside for the opening try. He then made a hash of gathering a ball through when he got mixed up with Leamy. As the full back, he should have dominated a ball on his own 22 that was being chased but completely panicked. His last one was the intercept which doesn't need explanation. If you look back at the thread on this site at the time, you'll see that I'm being quite kind relative to what the vast majority said at the time.

He still held his place after that performance. He wasn't even taken off. EOS gave him a massive vote of confidence that day. Previously, when he broke his leg, EOS came out and spoke in massively glowing terms about him, calling him world class. He was a big fan of Murphy's.

As for the Lions tour, no, he had a mediocre tour at best culminating in a very poor test appearance. He didn't spark really at all. He went out there as hot favourite for the test jersey and struggled to impose himself. He put in a couple of good showings in the last midweek games and got his shot in the final test where he immediately did this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeiV84AXChs&t=1m30s

I fully believe Murphy was ridiculously talented. The fake solo in the Premiership was the single best piece of skill of the 21st century I can recall with only Spencer's overhead kick in the same breath, for me. But there's absolutely no denying that his position as a full back became indefensible eventually at test level.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He was the same after that. For years. Just never under EOS.

I don't agree. Geordan was sensational prior to his leg break (and EOS was his coach at that stage).

More emphasis was beginning to be put on defence around then (Ireland recruited Mike Ford as Defence Coach in 2002).

scratchy36924

tommy bowe i think missed the first one on one tackle on rougerie murphy should have done better but rougerie has done that to countless defenders when he gets going with his size and speed on the outside with momentum that french teams generate .as for the clash on the ground the man coming forward should always take the ball leamy was coming straight back into the irish 22 thats his fault how people blame murphy for that just shows an overcritical viwe of him the only critisum of him that holds water is his at times average tackleing. murphy was in the same defensive class as o gara their both average defenders as it dose not come naturally to them as for the NZ tour watch the rest of that video NZ in typical NZ fashion sliced the lions to shreds time and time again world class defenders were shown up on that tour never mind the average defense of murphy which is average but to say hes made mistakes that other players did'nt is just not true

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I fully believe Murphy was ridiculously talented. The fake solo in the Premiership was the single best piece of skill of the 21st century I can recall with only Spencer's overhead kick in the same breath, for me. But there's absolutely no denying that his position as a full back became indefensible eventually at test level.

Is there a clip of that anywhere?

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Is there a clip of that anywhere?

Rarely seen but it was shown as part of a compilation that Sky Sports did on Murphy about 6-8 weeks ago when he retired. Basically, he's one on one with the last defender coming down the wing and moves as if he's going to chip the defender. Instead, Murphy pulls out of the kick and solos the egg GAA style whilst stepping inside the man and cruises in for a try.

It was an unbelievably classy and composed piece of trickery made to look so easy.

razorblunt

Buer wrote: »

Rarely seen but it was shown as part of a compilation that Sky Sports did on Murphy about 6-8 weeks ago when he retired. Basically, he's one on one with the last defender coming down the wing and moves as if he's going to chip the defender. Instead, Murphy pulls out of the kick and solos the egg GAA style whilst stepping inside the man and cruises in for a try.

It was an unbelievably classy and composed piece of trickery made to look so easy.

Made all the better when he somewhat dismissed it afterwards as a skill kids learn in GAA at an early age and wasn't getting too carried away by it.

gaius c

Era

scratchy36924 wrote: »

i remember the NZ 2006 tour it was a white wash but nothing like the horror show of the last tour i remember o gara getting boshed over by carter or mcalister to go in for a try around the 75 minute mark in the first test i think. a one on one miss tackle 5 meters out. before the next test the NZ press brought the issue up with EOS he responded by saying hes worked on his tackling all week. o gara stared all 3 tests all the 2007 six nations games. EOS put confidence in him if he make a mistake. ive seen darcy make as many mistakes as murphy such as the mistackle against the french in 2011 six nations or dropped balls but hes a good player who will help the team in the long run with the confidence of the coach. shane willams is an example of a great player who was shunned by wales up until his world class display at the 2003 world cup where would he be if he had been given the murphy treatment for is entire career. i blame the irish coaching staff to hold some responsibility in not getting the best out of him as leicester and the lions got the best out of him and we could'nt. it was horrible to watch as EOS set double standards for players. and if dempsey was anything like hafepenny he would have been on 3 lions tours as he was around for 2001 2005 and could have bowed out on the 2009 tour as solid as halfpenny but never realy came out of his comfort zone as a player and we payed for it in 2007 RWC as every player was conserved and lacked imagination except BOD

Era. Go away with your apples & oranges comparison. ROG was a weak tackler but that NZ try was pretty much the only time Ireland ever conceded a try because of his weak tackling.

Turnstiles, on the other hand, owes us two grand slams and a triple crown from actively shirking out of his defensive duties.

gaius c

Buer wrote: »

Rarely seen but it was shown as part of a compilation that Sky Sports did on Murphy about 6-8 weeks ago when he retired. Basically, he's one on one with the last defender coming down the wing and moves as if he's going to chip the defender. Instead, Murphy pulls out of the kick and solos the egg GAA style whilst stepping inside the man and cruises in for a try.

It was an unbelievably classy and composed piece of trickery made to look so easy.

He copied it off Phillipe Saint Andre who did it about twenty years previously. I know because I saw the original and asked Geordan himself if he saw it too.

jamiedav2011

gaius c wrote: »

Era

Era. Go away with your apples & oranges comparison. ROG was a weak tackler but that NZ try was pretty much the only time Ireland ever conceded a try because of his weak tackling.

Turnstiles, on the other hand, owes us two grand slams and a triple crown from actively shirking out of his defensive duties.

Sport is very black and white in your head isn't it?

former legend

gaius c wrote: »

Era

Era. Go away with your apples & oranges comparison. ROG was a weak tackler but that NZ try was pretty much the only time Ireland ever conceded a try because of his weak tackling.

Turnstiles, on the other hand, owes us two grand slams and a triple crown from actively shirking out of his defensive duties.

ROG owes us a Lions series...

Tim Robbins

Podge_irl wrote: »

Murphy only got as many caps as he did because Dempsey was a better full back.

Murphy was a very talented player and we'll never know what would have happened without that horrific leg injury, but he always looked an awful lot better at club level then international level. His defence, strength in contact and decision making under pressure simply weren't good enough.

+1

Leicester were a very strong and physical team and attack more than have to defend. That's different to when you are playing for Ireland and you are up against world class players and everyone needs to be able to tackle.

Murphy was around at a time when our 10 couldn't tackle and we already had the blind side winger or the 7 covering him. Another player who was weak at tackling meant we were too exposed.

I would say thou Kearney's tackling isn't always that clinical either.