Christy Ring/Nicky Rackard/Lory Meagher Cups 2013

Hammer Archer

Congratulations to Down, Donegal and especially Warwickshire on their wins today. Thought the Longford manager's comments this week about the Lory Meagher final were a bit misguided. When you come out with things like "I have no doubt in my mind that it's our fate to go and win the Lory Meagher Cup final" you're asking for trouble, especially when the team you're playing in the final beat you just a few weeks previously.

Interestingly, the scoreline in today's Christy Ring final was the exact same but in reverse as the one when Kerry and Down met in the first round.

Kerrydude1981

Some game yesterday it had everything a top tier game would have,joy and heartbreak for us in the space of a minute,congrats to Down though for showing great fighting spirit and sticking to the task.

Congrats to Donegal and Warwickshire as well.

jj1

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But how do they get in the way of the bigger games???? I doubt anybody going to a Donegal hurling match wont go because they will go to see Kilkenny instead - Am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure that you're not missing something.

I think playing the 3 lower Championships later in the year was causing club fixture problems for counties that were mainly football counties. The theory was that the county hurling panels couldn't commit fully as most would be playing football with their clubs as well. The idea of having them much earlier without the round robin elements is that the panels are able to fully commit for the period of the competition.

I don't think that viewpoint is correct & I think that county boards in some counties are completely indifferent to a particular code & just want it out of the way to make time for the other code.

KK did something similar with their club football Championships as well. Played it off early so that players wouldn't have to choose between the two codes

Swordfish trombone

In terms of progression, surely Donegal are the most improved hurling county. The leap from winning the Lory M (albeit their 3rd final) to winning the Nicky R at first attempt is a huge achievement - particularly given the success the footballers are currently enjoying. Ray Durack has worked wonders - to his eternal credit. Its fantastic to see the Burt contingent keeping hurling alive, and a thorn in the side of the Donegal GAA staus quo. The Christy Ring, realistically, is a not going to happen in the short term, but progress is progress......well done for the hard and unacknowledged work.

InchicoreDude

jj1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that you're not missing something.

I think playing the 3 lower Championships later in the year was causing club fixture problems for counties that were mainly football counties. The theory was that the county hurling panels couldn't commit fully as most would be playing football with their clubs as well. The idea of having them much earlier without the round robin elements is that the panels are able to fully commit for the period of the competition.

I don't think that viewpoint is correct & I think that county boards in some counties are completely indifferent to a particular code & just want it out of the way to make time for the other code.

KK did something similar with their club football Championships as well. Played it off early so that players wouldn't have to choose between the two codes

Aah ok, that is more logical! Thank you.

Kerrydude1981

jj1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that you're not missing something.

I think playing the 3 lower Championships later in the year was causing club fixture problems for counties that were mainly football counties. The theory was that the county hurling panels couldn't commit fully as most would be playing football with their clubs as well. The idea of having them much earlier without the round robin elements is that the panels are able to fully commit for the period of the competition.

I don't think that viewpoint is correct & I think that county boards in some counties are completely indifferent to a particular code & just want it out of the way to make time for the other code.

KK did something similar with their club football Championships as well. Played it off early so that players wouldn't have to choose between the two codes

Some of the Kerry lads had to play the first round of the County Football Championship yesterday,County Board once again showing very little respect towards the hurlers pretty sad asking fellas to play 24 hours after an All Ireland final.

What did ye make of Donal Og's idea on The Sunday Game last night? Having a combined Ulster team in the Liam McCarthy Cup

legendary.xix

Congratulations to Down. Welcome to the Christy Ring top table! Naturally I'm disappointed for my own county. It was the result I feared. Down seemed to gain a momentum in this year's championship that we have not seen for a few years. For Kerry hurling, it'll be interesting to see how they respond to yesterday's defeat. Next year the Ring winner will advance to a promotion/relegation play-off to join the provincial play-off group.

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

What did ye make of Donal Og's idea on The Sunday Game last night? Having a combined Ulster team in the Liam McCarthy Cup

Sounds like the divisional teams that play in Kerry and Cork championships. Not sure it will work at inter-county level. I don't think the Down management would want their better players missing training to take part with an Ulster team. I'm not looking to knock the idea as their is merit in it. At the same time there's a place for a Leinster and Connaught-Munster team. Donal Og's call seem to revolve around the fact the lower tier cups are over in early June. A couple of weeks though is no preparation for a team to be put together to take on a team training all year. This time next year the Ring winner will be preparing for a promotion/relegation play-off to join the provincial qualifier group. My own preference to bring on the better Ring teams is for the Ring semi-finalists to join 4 teams like Antrim, Carlow, Laois and Westmeath in a B championship to provide them more game time in June-July.

keane2097

It would be very much like Divisional teams as they have in Kerry. Assuming the counties involved would still line out with all their players in Lory Meagher/Nicky Rackard/Christy Ring this would only be a good thing, gradually improving the standard of some players in the county, driving others to try and get to that higher level etc.

I think it's pretty unarguable that someone like Darren O'Sullivan benefits from playing top level club football for Mid Kerry rather than just playing at a far lower level for Glenbeigh, think this would definitely help weaker counties in the long run.

legendary.xix

keane2097 wrote: »

It would be very much like Divisional teams as they have in Kerry. Assuming the counties involved would still line out with all their players in Lory Meagher/Nicky Rackard/Christy Ring this would only be a good thing, gradually improving the standard of some players in the county, driving others to try and get to that higher level etc.

I think it's pretty unarguable that someone like Darren O'Sullivan benefits from playing top level club football for Mid Kerry rather than just playing at a far lower level for Glenbeigh, think this would definitely help weaker counties in the long run.

There is merit in it alright. Divisional teams could simply enter at the qualifier stages when the Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cups have already completed. There are one or two snags.
The gap between Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cup finals and the qualifiers is two weeks. Is that enough time for players to prepare to take on a team who've been training all year? The Ring/Rackard/Meagher Cup semi-finalists and finalists will be in no position to release players any sooner considering their own commitments. The Ring winner next year will qualify for a promotion/relegation play-off to join the McCarthy Cup provincial qualifier group. This will either be a week after the Ring final or the same weekend as the qualifiers.

Stevecw

Looking at the hurling qualifier draw there earlier. It had 7 teams. My own county Carlow got a bye, so end up away to either Wexford/Dublin. That's a hammering for us, without even having had a game in weeks to prepare.

Pity Down as CR winners couldn't have joined in at this stage and made it 8 teams. A game between say Carlow and Down would be close. It would give Down a go at the lower Liam McCarthy teams, and would give the likes of Carlow an extra tough game if we did manage to beat Down, before facing a Wex/Dub.

legendary.xix

Stevecw wrote: »

Looking at the hurling qualifier draw there earlier. It had 7 teams. My own county Carlow got a bye, so end up away to either Wexford/Dublin. That's a hammering for us, without even having had a game in weeks to prepare.

Pity Down as CR winners couldn't have joined in at this stage and made it 8 teams. A game between say Carlow and Down would be close. It would give Down a go at the lower Liam McCarthy teams, and would give the likes of Carlow an extra tough game if we did manage to beat Down, before facing a Wex/Dub.

You make a fair point but there are one or two points to be aware of:

1) The McCarthy Cup has expanded with Carlow, Westmeath and London joining over recent years. Last year two counties had byes at this stage and before that 3 had byes prior to Westmeath joining the Leinster championship.

2) At congress it was voted that Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath and London will enter a provincial qualifying group next year. The top 2 teams in the group will advance to the Leinster championship quarter-finals. The bottom team of 5 will be relegated to the Ring Cup. The 4th placed team of 5 will take on the Ring Cup winner 2014 in a promotion relegation final. This will result in the provincial group only having 4 counties in 2015 and it will reduce by one more to 3 teams, 13 McCarthy Cup teams in total, in 2016.

nice_guy80

Stevecw wrote: »

Looking at the hurling qualifier draw there earlier. It had 7 teams. My own county Carlow got a bye, so end up away to either Wexford/Dublin. That's a hammering for us, without even having had a game in weeks to prepare.

Pity Down as CR winners couldn't have joined in at this stage and made it 8 teams. A game between say Carlow and Down would be close. It would give Down a go at the lower Liam McCarthy teams, and would give the likes of Carlow an extra tough game if we did manage to beat Down, before facing a Wex/Dub.

that would make sense

something the GAA don't do much of

InchicoreDude

nice_guy80 wrote: »

that would make sense

something the GAA don't do much of

In fairness, I think their approach outlined by legendary above is fairly sensible.

Hammer Archer

Anyone know if Donegal and Warwickshire will be promoted to the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard respectively? Haven't seen any word of teams being relegated. It'd be a bit unfair on both teams if they're forced to stay in the same grade next season. I'd say Warwickshire especially would be able to compete in the Nicky Rackard Cup. Donegal would probably have it tougher if they were to promote.

Kerrydude1981

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Anyone know if Donegal and Warwickshire will be promoted to the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard respectively? Haven't seen any word of teams being relegated. It'd be a bit unfair on both teams if they're forced to stay in the same grade next season. I'd say Warwickshire especially would be able to compete in the Nicky Rackard Cup. Donegal would probably have it tougher if they were to promote.

Donegal will surely want a crack at it,dont know how the places in both cups will be decided though as there is no relegation play off like it was when it first started,its it league position that decides it now?

paul0103

It looks like the format for the 3 competitions are staying as they are for 2014. From the official guide pg 102 here (found on Meath County Board Website)

the Counties eligible to participate in the Championship are:
Wicklow, Kildare, Meath, Down, Derry, Armagh, Kerry and Mayo.

This really seems to be a ridiculous situation. It just makes winning any of the lower championships this year pointless. I know plenty of people have said it before, but surely it would be of benefit to Down this year to take a place in the preliminary round of the hurling qualifiers.

It is going to be made progressively harder to make it into Liam MacCarthy in the following two years. This would be fair enough if it ends up in a stronger Christy Ring championship, but I wonder how long it will last if a team like Antrim gets relegated and then has to have all of their championship games squeezed into the space of 6 weeks.

Kerrydude1981

Amazing how a game as good as The Christy Ring Final was can only get 2 minutes highlights on The Sunday Game.

legendary.xix

The idea of divisional/combined county teams is a good shout. The better lower tier players should be facilitated to get a taste of the game at the highest level. Lower tier counties aren't getting any inter-county hurling for the rest of the year. There is nothing to lose in even trialling it. If works great, if not, things can return as they are.

paul0103

legendary.xix wrote: »

The idea of divisional/combined county teams is a good shout. The better lower tier players should be facilitated to get a taste of the game at the highest level. Lower tier counties aren't getting any inter-county hurling for the rest of the year. There is nothing to lose in even trialling it. If works great, if not, things can return as they are.

I agree that something has to be done about lower tier counties getting inter county hurling into the summer, but I really don't think that regional or divisional teams are the way to go. Realistically a team needs to be training as a whole squad from October/November, which would be impossible in a regional team situation.

Also as it is at the minute, in most of these counties you have a core support of people who would attend most pre-season, league and championship matches. Then when the Christy Ring comes around, you might get a few more from the county coming to matches. If regional teams were introduced, these extra supporters would certainly be lost, possibly along with some of the core supporters.

What really needs to be done is for counties that are just about one step up from the Christy Ring, e.g Westmeath, London, Antrim etc. to realise that there isn't a hope of any of them competing with the top 10. If this happened we could have a far more competitive CR cup, something similar to what it was when it started out. These teams could join with the current top 4 or 5 from the Christy Ring to form the basis of this. If this was run parallel to the Liam MacCarthy throughout the summer it would get far more public attention, and would be very competitive, and would possibly even interest some of the "football only" supporters in some of these counties.

The same could be continued down through the championships, with the lower CR teams joining the upper teams from Nicky Rackard championship etc.

legendary.xix

paul0103 wrote: »

I agree that something has to be done about lower tier counties getting inter county hurling into the summer, but I really don't think that regional or divisional teams are the way to go. Realistically a team needs to be training as a whole squad from October/November, which would be impossible in a regional team situation.

Also as it is at the minute, in most of these counties you have a core support of people who would attend most pre-season, league and championship matches. Then when the Christy Ring comes around, you might get a few more from the county coming to matches. If regional teams were introduced, these extra supporters would certainly be lost, possibly along with some of the core supporters.

What really needs to be done is for counties that are just about one step up from the Christy Ring, e.g Westmeath, London, Antrim etc. to realise that there isn't a hope of any of them competing with the top 10. If this happened we could have a far more competitive CR cup, something similar to what it was when it started out. These teams could join with the current top 4 or 5 from the Christy Ring to form the basis of this. If this was run parallel to the Liam MacCarthy throughout the summer it would get far more public attention, and would be very competitive, and would possibly even interest some of the "football only" supporters in some of these counties.

The same could be continued down through the championships, with the lower CR teams joining the upper teams from Nicky Rackard championship etc.

Yeah, that's the problem with a regional team, they won't get much time to train together. At other levels of the GAA combined team's have shown they can overcome those obstacles and come to some arrangement. If it was at least tried for 2 or 3 years, there is nothing to lose.

I take your point about dropping some counties back to Ring level. The problem is though, teams want to naturally progress to the next level. The GAA to be fair to them are accommodating this as best they can. Next year 5 counties Antrim, Laois Carlow, Westmeath and London will enter a provincial qualifier group. Only the top 2 in the group will advance to the Leinster championship. Bottom team in the group will be relegated to Ring Cup and second bottom team will take on Ring winner in a promotion/relegation play-off.

The GAA's plan is to reduce to qualifier from 5 initially next year to being only 3 teams in 2016. I think they should only reduce it to 4. With 10 counties guaranteed provincial places and free of the threat of relegation, the GAA have essentially said these are the A level counties and the provincial qualifier counties are B level. I think 4 provincial qualifier counties should be joined by the 4 Ring semi-finalists in an All-Ireland B Championship in July. This would give Ring counties a chance to test themselves against teams just a level above them. The provincial qualifier counties while getting a chance to enter provincial championship would be getting an opportunity to win a championship at their level.