Windmills- Corrupt payment for neighbours?

Manoffeeling

I met a neighbour last week who informed me that he has been approached by a company to put up a windmill. His farm bounds me, but the windmill would be erected about 1/2 to 3/4 mile from me. It would almost be on the bog with the nearest house would be about 1/2 away. We got talking and he duly informed me that I would get money also if the planning went ahead.

Basically I and the bounding neighbours get money if we don't object! I didn't see any paperwork and have not been approached by anyone, but this smells foul. He is a fairly sound neighbour who tells the truth.

I am just wondering if this is common practice by these companies to bribe would be 'objectors'?

No bull excrement or childish comments please

RaggyDays

I`d want to see that in writing. Besides the amount of money when divided up between the neighbours wouldn't amount to much after.
Best to say no now and don't give the idea that you might have wanted it if there was money coming your way as that would be used against you to justify himself in erecting the Turbine

yellow50HX

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I met a neighbour last week who informed me that he has been approached by a company to put up a windmill. His farm bounds me, but the windmill would be erected about 1/2 to 3/4 mile from me. It would almost be on the bog with the nearest house would be about 1/2 away. We got talking and he duly informed me that I would get money also if the planning went ahead.

Basically I and the bounding neighbours get money if we don't object! I didn't see any paperwork and have not been approached by anyone, but this smells foul. He is a fairly sound neighbour who tells the truth.

I am just wondering if this is common practice by these companies to bribe would be 'objectors'?

No bull excrement or childish comments please

this may be compensation to neighboring farms as apposed to a bribe.

rancher

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I met a neighbour last week who informed me that he has been approached by a company to put up a windmill. His farm bounds me, but the windmill would be erected about 1/2 to 3/4 mile from me. It would almost be on the bog with the nearest house would be about 1/2 away. We got talking and he duly informed me that I would get money also if the planning went ahead.

Basically I and the bounding neighbours get money if we don't object! I didn't see any paperwork and have not been approached by anyone, but this smells foul. He is a fairly sound neighbour who tells the truth.

I am just wondering if this is common practice by these companies to bribe would be 'objectors'?

No bull excrement or childish comments please

This must be in the midlands, while they can't be any nearer than 500mtrs from a house, your neighbour can get a consderable lump sum or yearly rent if his boundary is near your windmill,

Manoffeeling

rancher wrote: »

This must be in the midlands, while they can't be any nearer than 500mtrs from a house, your neighbour can get a consderable lump sum or yearly rent if his boundary is near your windmill,

Sorry, but your reply is a little unclear. The windmill is on his land, not mine. Are you saying that the neighbours who bound the land where the turbine is situated will get an annual payment?

Manoffeeling

yellow50HX wrote: »

this may be compensation to neighboring farms as apposed to a bribe.

You can interpret it whatever way you want, but I think it's a bribe.

zenno

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Sorry, but your reply is a little unclear. The windmill is on his land, not mine. Are you saying that the neighbours who bound the land where the turbine is situated will get an annual payment?

As far as i know, only the owner of the land gets an annual payment.

rancher

Manoffeeling wrote: »

Sorry, but your reply is a little unclear. The windmill is on his land, not mine. Are you saying that the neighbours who bound the land where the turbine is situated will get an annual payment?

sorry didn't read it properly, yes for a short term, say five years as it would be more tax efficient but you can get a lump sum instead, there's war around here about same windmills
I think bord pleanala sent them back to get neighbours consent as well

edanto

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I am just wondering if this is common practice by these companies to bribe would be 'objectors'?

.

Yes.

The firms are looking to invest X million into building the things, and to reduce the chances of that all going t1ts up, they want to only build on sites where the landowners and neighbours have essentially sold their right to object. Strikes me as perfectly reasonable.

I'm not saying windmills are good or bad, just saying that I think it's a reasonable approach from the companies to reduce their risk.

I don't see what's corrupt or fishy about it?

There's certainly a lot to be concerned about - I've heard that windmill noise can affect sleep, cattle etc, but that's all a separate discussion. But is it not a bit dramatic to call it corrupt? They're just trying to make a business.

The government, on the other hand, have really made a sh1te of wind energy policy, with distorting subsidies and half baked policy. More on that here
http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2013/03/04/ireland-v-pat-swords/

kfk

AFAIK, once a wind project satisfies all of the guidelines and passes an environmental impact assessment, it would be very hard to be successful with an objection. So if it looks like it is going to get planning, IMO you may as well get what you can out of it. Do you have any land suitable for turbines?

Marooned75

The payment being offered to you is to stop you having any objections to it therefore the companies can say there is no objections to them.A bribe it sounds like.Also future planning applications by you or your children can be affected due to these things beside you what bank will give a loan on any property near these wind towers which will have a reduced or nearly worthless market value being near these things.

reilig

Compensation aside, what's wrong with having a windmill 1/2 a mile from your house?

rancher

reilig wrote: »

Compensation aside, what's wrong with having a windmill 1/2 a mile from your house?

The problem in the midlands is that 2000 windmills 600ft high are planned, which are the biggest in europe

MidlandsM

reilig wrote: »

Compensation aside, what's wrong with having a windmill 1/2 a mile from your house?

the noise apparently can be hard to live with.....:(

Manoffeeling

zenno wrote: »

As far as i know, only the owner of the land gets an annual payment.

He mentioned 18k as a once off payment for him and a rental income after that. He also said I might get about 1k, but he wasn't sure. He agreed with me that it wasn't very much money in the overall scheme of things and views my payment (if any), with suspicion.

I won't object if he wants to go ahead, as it won't interfere with me, but I view this payment to me as a bribe. I live a few miles from the farm so maybe this is why I can take a "chaise lounge" approach!

Username John

Manoffeeling wrote: »

You can interpret it whatever way you want, but I think it's a bribe.

I've heard of people getting compensated if a motorway is built near their house (i imagine the idea being you can insulate your house against the noise, etc...)

Would this not be the same kinda thing?

Marooned75

Manoffeeling wrote: »

He mentioned 18k as a once off payment for him and a rental income after that. He also said I might get about 1k, but he wasn't sure. He agreed with me that it wasn't very much money in the overall scheme of things and views my payment (if any), with suspicion.

I won't object if he wants to go ahead, as it won't interfere with me, but I view this payment to me as a bribe. I live a few miles from the farm so maybe this is why I can take a "chaise lounge" approach!

At 600 feet high a few miles isn't that far from it

rancher

Manoffeeling wrote: »

He mentioned 18k as a once off payment for him and a rental income after that. He also said I might get about 1k, but he wasn't sure. He agreed with me that it wasn't very much money in the overall scheme of things and views my payment (if any), with suspicion.

I won't object if he wants to go ahead, as it won't interfere with me, but I view this payment to me as a bribe. I live a few miles from the farm so maybe this is why I can take a "chaise lounge" approach!

If bord pleanala require the wind company to get your consent, there is no way that you should settle for €1k, it's up to you to set a figure.
These things are worth€18+/yr to the landowners along with 18k up front.

Manoffeeling

rancher wrote: »

If bord pleanala require the wind company to get your consent, there is no way that you should settle for €1k, it's up to you to set a figure.
These things are worth€18+/yr to the landowners along with 18k up front.

I didn't see any figures but 1k seems very little. What is the earning capacity of a turbine?

rancher

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I didn't see any figures but 1k seems very little. What is the earning capacity of a turbine?

I wouldn't know

loveta

MidlandsM wrote: »

the noise apparently can be hard to live with.....:(

There is a wind farm of about 20/30 windmills on the cavan fermanagh border up on a mountain not exactly what height they are the propellers are about 50/60 feet long each ,but anyways was up at them one day and there was little or no noise from them the wind was not blasting that day but they were spinning though..

Manoffeeling

rancher wrote: »

I wouldn't know

I admire you for your honesty.

munkus

Had a discussion with a friend of mine near Nenagh late week, there's a few there. He claimed that what the companies do is approach a number of farmers in the area, and neighbours like yourself and sign the agreements, including non disclosures. Out of all of the initial sites, they'll only choose a fraction of them and then look for planning on them. At that stage you can't make an objection as you were willing to have one near you when there was monetary gain in it for you, at least it weakens your objection.

Marooned75

Thats what they do get all to sign and then say there is no objections to these things.

Marooned75

rancher wrote: »

I wouldn't know

Course you do, did you not ask this question about them a while back?

freedominacup

Marooned75 wrote: »

Thats what they do get all to sign and then say there is no objections to these things.

If a development is in general compliance with a county development plan and building regulations you can object all you want and your objections will be noted but otherwise ignored. The fact that you don't "like" a proposed development or where it is to be sited is irrelevant. For an objection to be taken seriously it must show non-compliance with the development plan, or building regs or at a stretch some sort of impact on a historically significant site. Unless of course you can scare enough councillors into voting it down which is unlikely as the problem will only be shifted elsewhere and they probabaly have the math done and your area is the one where the least number of votes are at risk. It's probably not as blatant as the three possible routes plan with the motorways.

wayoutwest

If you are living 'downstream' from the windmill[check out average wind direction], then you might well be subjected to Infrasound. Most people can't hear this, as it is below 20 hertz [outside of our hearing range], but it can, all the same, cause negative effects [depression,anxiety,chest pains] The company will probably tell you that the turbines produce little or no noise...which maybe true, but they won't be talking about infrasound ,which, I believe can be detected some distance away from the site, Worth a google before committing yourself.

Manoffeeling

wayoutwest wrote: »

If you are living 'downstream' from the windmill[check out average wind direction], then you might well be subjected to Infrasound. Most people can't hear this, as it is below 20 hertz [outside of our hearing range], but it can, all the same, cause negative effects [depression,anxiety,chest pains] The company will probably tell you that the turbines produce little or no noise...which maybe true, but they won't be talking about infrasound ,which, I believe can be detected some distance away from the site, Worth a google before committing yourself.

I wasn't aware about infrasound. Is this the same frequency that some shops use to keep teenagers from loitering?

kowtow

munkus wrote: »

what the companies do is approach a number of farmers in the area, and neighbours like yourself and sign the agreements, including non disclosures... at least it weakens your objection.

If you sign demand that the NDA should cover the existence of the agreement with you, and be mutual, save as to the application in respect of your neighbours land. Then it can't be brought out in any other circumstances.

Dubl07

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I wasn't aware about infrasound. Is this the same frequency that some shops use to keep teenagers from loitering?

No - that's ultrasound/ultrasonics, eg the Mosquito which is pitched higher than an adult can generally hear. Infrasound is lower than the human hearing range. About Infrasound

Stinicker

You will also lose your Saorview TV reception if they buidl windmills between your aerial and the transmitter site. I'd object if I were you, no way in hell do you want them within 2-3miles of your home, the noise will drive you demented.

rancher

Marooned75 wrote: »

Course you do, did you not ask this question about them a while back?

So I know the earning capacity of a 3 to 4 mw wind turbine,... well if I do, I don't remember..

Marooned75

rancher wrote: »

If bord pleanala require the wind company to get your consent, there is no way that you should settle for €1k, it's up to you to set a figure.
These things are worth€18+/yr to the landowners along with 18k up front.

Your quote not mine does that answer your question

kfk

Marooned75 wrote: »

Your quote not mine does that answer your question

I think they are talking about the earning capacity a turbine has for the owners.

rancher

kfk wrote: »

I think they are talking about the earning capacity a turbine has for the owners.

Thanks...that's exactly what I took the question to mean, as I had previously given the information re the landowners

Marooned75

rancher wrote: »

Thanks...that's exactly what I took the question to mean, as I had previously given the information re the landowners

What are tax implications?And does tax situation change from Agri to commercial so you end up paying higher tax and so land transfer rates go through the roof?Just something to think about long term.

rancher

Marooned75 wrote: »

What are tax implications?And does tax situation change from Agri to commercial so you end up paying higher tax and so land transfer rates go through the roof?Just something to think about long term.

Again I wouldn't know, but it has to have huge implications and I am advising farmers near transferring to see their accountant

grazeaway

Stinicker wrote: »

You will also lose your Saorview TV reception if they buidl windmills between your aerial and the transmitter site. I'd object if I were you, no way in hell do you want them within 2-3miles of your home, the noise will drive you demented.

Really, your objection would be based on getting a good telly signal. And this noise you speak off, is it louder then the cars on the road outside? Most people now have houses with excellant windows and you won't hear much from outside.

There is a new wind farm going up near me. Some of the locals are planning on putting together a lobby group. I was asked to join a few weeks ago. I asked the group to tell me their list of objections. Also all of them related to visual impact and to lesser degree the increased road traffic during construction. When I asked if they would prefer a coal burning esb plant built instead there was a look of bemusement.

I personally have no objection to them. I have seen them in Germany, holland and Scandinavia for years. I lived in the northwest for a while too and lived near a couple for a few years.

All these very vague concerns about frequencys and shadows are all fine but how many people has wifi in their house and use mobile phones. These also are proposed to affect our life's. I wonder how many will also be complaining about the rises in energy costs as we become more and more reliant on russian gas and Saudi oil. We have no irish oil or gas (well none that will benifit the Irish public) so we need to explore alternative energy sources.

We are a small island sitting on the west coast if Europe. We live in a wet and windy climate so we should try to make the most if what we have.

Much of the objectors are more concerned with their own house value and views out the bathroom window then any concrete reasons, there is also a very signifacnt number that are motivated by jealously and greed. There was a proposed build on a hill opposite my home place about 5 years ago. It was for 4 units which would be on 4 adjoining farms. Each farmer was to get the same amount but one fella wanted more and wanted a second unit moved about 50m so it was on his place at the expense of a neighbour. When he company said no he went on to object to the whole plan. The whole epsoide was like a child throwing the toys out of the pram.

Farmer

grazeaway wrote: »

.....Much of the objectors are more concerned with their own house value and views out the bathroom window then any concrete reasons, there is also a very signifacnt number that are motivated by jealously and greed....

I think people are entitled to be somewhat concerned about anything that may detract from their current circumstances, especially when this will benefit many other people (construction, energy corporates, consumers, etc.) while seemingly offering them little for their inconvenience. Admittedly, some of their fears may be unfounded but many of us know real people who were plagued by rats and flies near landfill sites, all for the "greater good" of the rest of us, or those whose houses have been dwarfed by pylons or radio masts.

Greed certainly messes things up a bit (doesn't it everywhere?) but I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for looking for a reasonable compensation for something that may detract from their current situation.

According to a 2010 SEAI document (things may have gotten a littkle cheaper since)

"The cost of wind energy?
• Total costs per MW of installed wind generation capacity can range from €1.3m - €1.9m"

Surely it's reasonable that local communities should share a little piece of that pie

grazeaway

Farmer wrote: »

I think people are entitled to be somewhat concerned about anything that may detract from their current circumstances, especially when this will benefit many other people (construction, energy corporates, consumers, etc.) while seemingly offering them little for their inconvenience. Admittedly, some of their fears may be unfounded but many of us know real people who were plagued by rats and flies near landfill sites, all for the "greater good" of the rest of us, or those whose houses have been dwarfed by pylons or radio masts.

Greed certainly messes things up a bit (doesn't it everywhere?) but I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone for looking for a reasonable compensation for something that may detract from their current situation.

According to a 2010 SEAI document (things may have gotten a littkle cheaper since)

"The cost of wind energy?
• Total costs per MW of installed wind generation capacity can range from €1.3m - €1.9m"

Surely it's reasonable that local communities should share a little piece of that pie

I have no problem with local communities getting something from energy generation. In fact I think they should be used to provide cheaper energy from the grid to the public and not supply cheaper energy by the suppliers. The proposal to build massive turbines in the midlands to provide cheap power for britan would be a disgrace although it would typical of the quality of politicans we have to do that, as long as they get their brown envelopes they won't give a crap.

As for getting compensation, who should get how much for what? I can see a couple of windmills from my place they are about 10 miles away should I get something? I think not. Getting compensated cos you next to a dump or a quarry I can understand. Haven't seen any smoke from a turbine or toxic waste bellowing from one, not likely to see any dust coming from them either. If you live in the actual proximity of them then yes you should get something like with the esb pylons but if your looking across he valley at them then no.

Birdnuts

grazeaway wrote: »

I have no problem with local communities getting something from energy generation. In fact I think they should be used to provide cheaper energy from the grid to the public and not supply cheaper energy by the suppliers. .

The problem with wind energy is that it is unreliable and is therefore not "cheap", as it has to be backed up with conventional power sources when speeds are low. Also requires a very large investment for each MW as the turbines are usually located a long way from where the demand and conventional grid infrastructure exists. The former is a particular issue in the midlands were cold calm windless nights are a feature of many winters. Just when energy demand peaks.

My current understanding is that the 2 big midlands projects that have signed up a number of farmers still require many billions of euros of foreign investment(presumably their hoping for Chinese money) and a final agreement on what tariffs/subsidies the Brits are willing to pay for any power produced. This latter element appears to have become more uncertain recently given a growing public mood against rising energy bills in the UK and anti-wind power political parties doing well in the recent local elections. The Brits are also building a large new Nuclear power plant in the SW which which would go along way to solving their low carbon energy needs

grazeaway

Birdnuts wrote: »

The problem with wind energy is that it is unreliable and is therefore not "cheap", as it has to be backed up with conventional power sources when speeds are low. Also requires a very large investment for each MW as the turbines are usually located a long way from where the demand and conventional grid infrastructure exists. The former is a particular issue in the midlands were cold calm windless nights are a feature of many winters. Just when energy demand peaks.

My current understanding is that the 2 big midlands projects that have signed up a number of farmers still require many billions of euros of foreign investment(presumably their hoping for Chinese money) and a final agreement on what tariffs/subsidies the Brits are willing to pay for any power produced. This latter element appears to have become more uncertain recently given a growing public mood against rising energy bills in the UK and anti-wind power political parties doing well in the recent local elections. The Brits are also building a large new Nuclear power plant in the SW which which would go along way to solving their low carbon energy needs

we will need similar amounts of investment anyway to build more energy efficent power plants or if we too were to go down the nuclear route. There are also ideas to build storage plants like turloc hill which would use the wind power to pump the water to the resivor when the wind is up which it is on most days in ireland espically near the coast. the water then flows out through a convential hydro dam. Rain water and river levels are on always constant but we still use them to fill the resivor when plentiful. once the resivor is off siffucent size then could be built near the coast and filled with sea water although we'd proably end up witha few lads cribbing because the place they used to take the dogs every sunday would be under 50 feet of water.

reilig

Seems to me like everyone is cribbing. There was an article in a midlands newspaper a few months ago about a person who had objected to the refitting of the Shannonbridge and Ferbane power stations a few years ago and had brought court cases against them to try to stop them on pollution grounds. This person argued that BNM should use their large tracts of ground to develop wind turbines. However, lately, a wind farm has been proposed which will be 2 miles from this person's house, and now they are objecting to that.

There's an awful lot of spoofing going on in the midlands about the proposed wind farms. At a recent event, a lady spoke through a megaphone about how they cause cancer. Can you believe it?

While the infrasound debate is legitamate enough, its effects generated by windmills affects a very small minority of the population. Many research studies have been done on it in mainland europe and it is not a valid reason to choose fossil fuels or nuclear for electricity generation over renewable energy.

Greensleeves

Some food for thought for farmers considering hosting a wind turbine.

Some Australian farmers with big regrets:
stopthesethings.com/2013/02/17/i-am-a-wind-turbine-host/‎

A Canadian experience:
http://www.kincardinenews.com/2008/11/12/ripley-farmer-regrets-wind-turbine-leases

Username John

Greensleeves wrote: »

Some food for thought for farmers considering hosting a wind turbine.

Some Australian farmers with big regrets:
stopthesethings.com/2013/02/17/i-am-a-wind-turbine-host/‎

A Canadian experience:
http://www.kincardinenews.com/2008/11/12/ripley-farmer-regrets-wind-turbine-leases

Hello Greensleeves,
11 posts, and all on wind turbines...

I read that article that you linked, I especially liked this bit
"I just don't want so many of the them just so close to my house. Two, maybe three, but six to me, that's unreasonable.""

Greensleeves

Username John wrote: »

Hello Greensleeves,
11 posts, and all on wind turbines...

My 12th post is also on wind turbines!

If the huge midlands windfarm projects go ahead 5 out of 26 of our counties will be changed forever. Any Irish farmer that signs up for a turbine is by default making a decision for his entire community. The turbines will be with us for the next 25 years. It is surely worth looking at the experience of farmers in other countries before making such a momentous decision?

An American farmer who regrets signing up for a wind turbine:
http://betterplan.squarespace.com/wisconsin-farmer-regrets-sayin/

grazeaway

Greensleeves wrote: »

My 12th post is also on wind turbines!

If the huge midlands windfarm projects go ahead 5 out of 26 of our counties will be changed forever. Any Irish farmer that signs up for a turbine is by default making a decision for his entire community. The turbines will be with us for the next 25 years. It is surely worth looking at the experience of farmers in other countries before making such a momentous decision?

An American farmer who regrets signing up for a wind turbine:
http://betterplan.squarespace.com/wisconsin-farmer-regrets-sayin/

I'm sure there are also numerous studies where the farmer is happy with the windmill.

Figerty

grazeaway wrote: »

I'm sure there are also numerous studies where the farmer is happy with the windmill.

There are a few lads living along the transport route that are happy with the windmills, they have squeezed money out of the companies supplying and installing the turbines if they have to cut hedges or trees on bends to accommodate the long transport lorries,.

grazeaway

Figerty wrote: »

There are a few lads living along the transport route that are happy with the windmills, they have squeezed money out of the companies supplying and installing the turbines if they have to cut hedges or trees on bends to accommodate the long transport lorries,.

i think there is a bit of a misconception that people are only interested in money when it comes to installing anything in the area, and that once they get "compensation" will allow anything up. I know of lads that will not except any money to have something on their land. I know of one lad who point blank refused the council permission to lay a sewer through his land. he successfully argued against a CPO as well and they had to re-route the sewer. He also refused an approach for a mobile phone mast but did not object to it going up in his neighbours.

Figerty

grazeaway wrote: »

i think there is a bit of a misconception that people are only interested in money when it comes to installing anything in the area, and that once they get "compensation" will allow anything up. I know of lads that will not except any money to have something on their land. I know of one lad who point blank refused the council permission to lay a sewer through his land. he successfully argued against a CPO as well and they had to re-route the sewer. He also refused an approach for a mobile phone mast but did not object to it going up in his neighbours.

While that may be true. I know people who have directly told me they bascially played hardball with the windturbine companies on the road access route and squeezed them for money. I am talking about along the main road, not in the land.

Manoffeeling

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/8579747/Wind-farm-forced-to-close-after-complaints-over-the-noise.html

http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Exasperated-planners-shut-wind-farm-down-6934757.htm

http://www.marklynas.org/2011/06/bats-birds-and-blades-wind-turbines-and-biodiversity/#comment-1648

http://www.epaw.org/documents.php?lang=en&article=n5