Psychometric Tests, a load of bollocks?

dd972

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/30/jobseekers-bogus-psychometric-tests-unemployed

article from the Guardian, albeit a UK story, it's equally relevant as regards having to do these tests for any type of job from sweeping floors, to call centres to digging graves.

Anyone else think these tests are pseudo scientific claptrap?

discus

Of course they have a place, in assessing candidates for jobs etc. But from the example above, answering the quiz with the same answers to the questions was giving different final results - ie it was a sham, joke of sorts.

Czarcasm

dd972 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/30/jobseekers-bogus-psychometric-tests-unemployed

article from the Guardian, albeit a UK story, it's equally relevant as regards having to do these tests for any type of job from sweeping floors, to call centres to digging graves.

Anyone else think these tests are pseudo scientific claptrap?

Seriously OP, did you even read the article-

People complaining that they had to do what amounted to five minutes on a computer, or their benefits would be cut.

The phrase "too lazy to lift a finger" comes to mind.

orestes

They're quite easy to fool apparently, especially for people with psychopathic tendencies.

IM0

I could have sworn I was reading the daily fail just then, then I saw it was the guardian

Czarcasm

IM0 wrote: »

I could have sworn I was reading the daily fail just then, then I saw it was the guardian

Twenty years ago too the Irish Independent was a reputable newspaper, so it's no surprise to see the above in The Guardian nowadays. Anything that'll fill a few pages unfortunately.

Weevil

Czarcasm wrote: »

Seriously OP, did you even read the article-

People complaining that they had to do what amounted to five minutes on a computer, or their benefits would be cut.

The phrase "too lazy to lift a finger" comes to mind.

Did you even read the article?

Baseless threats to 'nudge' people to participate in a meaningless forty-eight question, multiple choice test to be rewarded with a random 'strength'?

Czarcasm

Weevil wrote: »

Did you even read the article?

Baseless threats to 'nudge' people to participate in a meaningless forty-eight question, multiple choice test to be rewarded with a random 'strength'?

Ohh right, because being unemployed they have so much better things to be doing, right? Five minutes out of their busy schedule?

The fact that they're even complaining about it shows a distinct lack of motivation tbh. It can be as meaningless as it likes, it's not as if they have much better to be doing with their time, unless they're jobseeking 24/7.

who_me

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ohh right, because being unemployed they have so much better things to be doing, right? Five minutes out of their busy schedule?

The fact that they're even complaining about it shows a distinct lack of motivation tbh. It can be as meaningless as it likes, it's not as if they have much better to be doing with their time, unless they're jobseeking 24/7.

Sometimes, I drive through poor areas, looking for poor people to lick my boots clean. It's amazing how few takers I get.

How lazy can they be? Money is money...

Chuck Stone

It not so much the information they want from you as the message they are giving you.

We don't just want your loyalty and labour: we want your soul.

El Gato

In reply to the title (not the article in the Guardian), I believe Psychometric Tests ARE a load of bollocks.

I have completed an application for DAA for the Graduate program (IT specialist - not accountancy, not language, not any other discipline strictly IT).

I received an email outlining the recruitment procedure:

This recruitment process will take approximately 8 weeks.

The steps in this process are as follows:

1.Submission of your application
2.Initial screening of your application
3.Online psychometric testing
4.1st round face to face interviews
5.Completion of an EQ-i online test
6.Assessment Centre
7.Final face to face interview

I have just completed one of the TWO psychometric tests which was Verbal Reasoning. Now, I believe myself to be above average intelligence but 49 questions in 12 minutes relating to 6 areas (products, markets, objectives, board, subsidiaries, policies) within a fictitious global company is absolutely ridiculous. That provides 14 seconds to read the question, select the appropriate information tab (which resets to 'products' (as an example) after each question), read the paragraph and return a 'true, 'false' or 'cannot determine' answer.

On completion of the test there is no 'outcome' or feedback, only 'completed' displayed onscreen.

Now, I need to ask, what relevance does this have to Java programming, XML, AJAX, MySQL etc, etc, etc?

Also having sat a numeracy psychometric test for SQS (again for a software developer role) the questions were accountancy questions with absolutely no context in Software development.

So, in conclusion, I believe companies who use psychometric tests as a way to 'thin the field' are lazy in their acquisition of new talent and have no real interest in proper recruitment.

As Mike Byron, author of How to Pass Psychometric Tests (and has written some tests himself) acknowledges, ".....all tests should be recognized as less than perfect....."

Czarcasm

El Gato wrote: »

I have just completed one of the TWO psychometric tests which was Verbal Reasoning. Now, I believe myself to be above average intelligence but 49 questions in 12 minutes relating to 6 areas (products, markets, objectives, board, subsidiaries, policies) within a fictitious global company is absolutely ridiculous.

First mistake right there in bold tbh, from then on it was all downhill. Psychometric tests aren't just a measure of your intellect, they also allow a tester to gauge your attitude. They aren't a pass or fail. That test sounds like a standard "How fast can you think on your feet? Do you crumble under pressure? Can you think outside the box? Are you a logical thinker?"

Now, I need to ask, what relevance does this have to Java programming, XML, AJAX, MySQL etc, etc, etc?

See above.

Also having sat a numeracy psychometric test for SQS (again for a software developer role) the questions were accountancy questions with absolutely no context in Software development.

They were testing your numerical and mathematical skills, again your logical thought processes, what better way to do that than accountancy?

So, in conclusion, I believe companies who use psychometric tests as a way to 'thin the field' are lazy in their acquisition of new talent and have no real interest in proper recruitment.

There's not much point in informing you you're wrong when your mind's made up already, but you're wrong.

El Gato

Wow, well done on making assumptions on what the test was gauging. The test was a literacy test, not gauging 'how fast you can think on your feet' but how fast you can read the question, locate the correct paragraph of text, read the text and determine the right answer.
The information was contained within one of 6 tabs. The requirement was to read the question, locate the right tab and extract the correct answer from one of 4 paragraphs contained within the tab within a 14 second time frame.

There was no way for a tester to gauge if one 'crumbles under pressure' based on the responses from a psychometric test.

There is no scope for 'thinking outside the box' as the questions were direct and related directly to the content of the paragraphs.

Finally, the only point that you make that is in some way valid is your last point. Logically there were some answers that could not be determined from the content therefore the option of 'cannot determine' was the option which would be the logical correct answer.

So, can you tell me how much programming experience you have and how many applications you have developed which you were required to make a specification decision within 14 seconds?

The mathematics associated with programming are very different to that of accountancy....or let me put it a different way. Give an accountant a section of code containing maths and have them provide a correct answer within 14 seconds.....

By saying there is no point in informing me of the outcome, due to my mind being made up, is a ridiculous statement to make. Again there is no way for the tester to determine the state of my mind..

So, you have determined that I am wrong? Why, because you say so? Because your opinion is right? My opinion of psychometric tests relating to Software Development roles is my opinion and you have no right to tell me I am wrong. When Almost every big IT company DO NOT use psychometric testing says something. IBM, Ericsson, Guidewire, OpenJaw, Openet (the list goes on and on) do NOT use this kind of test to determine suitability so they must be wrong too eh?

Finally having undergone many structured IQ tests my mean score was 114 which is above average intelligence, so yet again allowing your ignorance shine through by saying me believing IQ testing showing me above average intelligence, is a mistake.

But of course you appear to be of superior knowledge and are right (because you say so)

Next time, before you tell someone you don't even know THEIR opinion on a particular subject is wrong, just remember it is THEIR opinion

Czarcasm

El Gato wrote: »

So, can you tell me how much programming experience you have and how many applications you have developed which you were required to make a specification decision within 14 seconds?

Over 20 years working in software development, ten of those with a large multinational where I hired and headed up my own team of engineers with years of experience and graduates fresh out of uni, I am now self employed as an IT Consultant running my own successful business.

How many applications have I developed in which I was required to make a spec decision within 14 seconds? Well, four seconds to make the decision, ten seconds to go make coffee. You either know your stuff inside out, or you don't. Business decisions allow for even less procrastination.

Next time, before you tell someone you don't even know THEIR opinion on a particular subject is wrong, just remember it is THEIR opinion

You are indeed entitled to your opinion, however far your opinion and your attitude gets you though is another matter entirely. I wish you luck in your job search, and hope you present a better image of yourself than you have done in this thread. It's not good enough just to know your stuff any more. As I've said in other threads on here- The days of Dilbert and the BOFH in IT are long gone, thank fcuk!

Kichote

Voodoo and witchcraft. High flying CEO types dig them because they hear about them at some seminar. Bollocks of the highest order

Gorilla Rising

Czarcasm wrote: »

How many applications have I developed in which I was required to make a spec decision within 14 seconds? Well, four seconds to make the decision, ten seconds to go make coffee. You either know your stuff inside out, or you don't. Business decisions allow for even less procrastination.

And he could well make those decisions in an IT related environment - an area where he's studied and worked in for some time.

It may measure a person's ability to perform in a certain subject and context for example, literacy/basic numeracy, but it doesn't mean a person under-performing in such a test, would do so in their chosen field of study/work.

I'd be very skeptical of them myself. I doubt if I was ever in a position of hiring I'd ever use them.

El Gato

You can always provide a smart answer about making a decision within 4 seconds and making coffee for the other 10. I guess being presented with a problem you have never seen before, you were able to do the same? 4 seconds to make a good decision and 10 seconds to make a coffee? From my experience, a new, bespoke software project requires a lot more than 4 seconds to make a decision, regardless of how many you have developed before.

So out of all those engineers you have hired how many have you brought forward as a result of a psychometric test? (If you have) Out of those, how many have you progressed through after they scored lowly on the tests that aren't "pass or fail" as you put it?

Yet again you make assumptions about me and my 'attitude' based on a post on a thread where I offer my opinion. My 'attitude' and work ethic are the main reasons I have retain the last 2 jobs I had. Oh an because you may have read some of my recent posts, don't make the mistake in thinking I am a fresh out of college 22 year old without industry experience (which is the view you appear to be projecting about me)

For your sake I hope you are a better consultant with a better 'attitude' than you portray here. Personally, working with someone who determines an opinion is "wrong" would not enamor me to retain their services.

Referencing Dilbert and a rogue sys admin is a poor reflection of how you appear to view me and my skills.

TPD

I had one of those literacy tests online for a company a recruitment agency set me up with in Belfast. Passed handily enough, the recruitment crowd reckoned most people don't, so I was happy with that. Never got a call back from the recruitment folk after telling them my ideal job would be an indie game developer though :pac:

Hoop66

The tests you're talking about are not psychometric tests. They are numeracy/literacy etc. tests. I can see the point of those if you're bringing someone into your organisation; it's nice if they can read and write.

Psychometric tests are the ones that ask:

Would you prefer to a) work all day b) drink all day c) kill everyone.

Then they ask similar questions again with similar answers in different orders. So if you're just clicking buttons, you'll give different answers to essentially the same questions and give yourself away. I hate them with a passion, and have had to do them for several job interviews.

What I would like to have done is what the father of a friend did. He's a highly-respected agricultural consultant who has done work for the UN all over the world. He was asked to do a psychometric test at an interview once, he stood up and told them "this interview is over".

El Gato

Psychometric tests can take many forms including personality & attitudinal (which you refer to), numeracy(math), literacy(English usage, reading comprehension & critical reasoning).

As for knowing a perspective candidate can read or write would (or should) be gauged by his/her CV and covering letter.

I wouldn't have a problem doing a test related to my field of expertise. One area I agree with Czarcasm is that if you know your stuff, you know your stuff, so give me a psychometric test on Java, COBOL, XML HTML(5), PHO, MySQL or any of the areas I have worked in, studied and "know my stuff in".

starlit

It can be but its one way to wittle down all the candidates! Means those that do it and are successful are the only ones that need to be interviewed whether it phone and or face to face interview.

I would imagine for the bigger companies and with a lot of applicants they would have to do psychometric tests as part of the recruitment process some companies its compulsory but for smaller businesses interviews be just enough but depends on role especially specific ones or general ones aptitude tests are handed to see what role suit you after you are successful in interview and for specific tests its one way of knowing if you suitable for a specialised role.

There are different types of psychometric tests depending on the role they probably have specific type of aptitude tests for them for example statistics for a banking data analyst role or general banking role/IT role maybe numerical and logic and spacial for graphic design or something while general office work verbal as well a numerical be likely ones. Sometimes might just be personality or competency/behavioral/dilemma type questions that be multiple choice for example for a store/shop assistant/customer service role you might be asked a series of questions and you pick the answer you would chose if you were to deal with such a situation/dilemma.

El Gato

doovdela wrote: »

It can be but its one way to wittle down all the candidates! Means those that do it and are successful are the only ones that need to be interviewed whether it phone and or face to face interview.

I would disagree that it is the way to determine who to bring forward for (IT) roles. These tests cannot determine how good/bad a programmer is at, well, programming

doovdela wrote: »

I would imagine for the bigger companies and with a lot of applicants they would have to do psychometric tests as part of the recruitment process some companies its compulsory but for smaller businesses interviews be just enough but depends on role especially specific ones or general ones aptitude tests are handed to see what role suit you after you are successful in interview and for specific tests its one way of knowing if you suitable for a specialised role.

Again (unfortunately) I will have to disagree with this. As I said before IBM, PayPal, Sentenial, Ericsson, OpenJaw, Openet, Guidewire, AIB, CampusIT do not use psychometric testing as part of their recruitment process

Hoop66

Essentially, some bull artist got lucky a fw years back, and some companies who wanted to be seen to be doing the "next big thing" grabbed it.

Serious companies don't do them (the "personality-type" ones) as they are essentially worthless.

El Gato

Psychological assessment by multiple choice

starlit

El Gato wrote: »

I would disagree that it is the way to determine who to bring forward for (IT) roles. These tests cannot determine how good/bad a programmer is at, well, programming



Again (unfortunately) I will have to disagree with this. As I said before IBM, PayPal, Sentenial, Ericsson, OpenJaw, Openet, Guidewire, AIB, CampusIT do not use psychometric testing as part of their recruitment process

In terms of IT roles I be talking specifically about specialised tests like programming tests but its not to say they wouldn't ask you to do a logic or spacial test? If its a general application but could end up in IT say a general apt test/psychometric test ensue like for grad programmes or companies like vodafone for instance or companies not in the area of IT like board gais, ESB, Central bank etc.

Every company is different regarding their recruitment policy regardless of the industry the company is in but most companies do use psychometric tests.
From experience the psychometric tests either lead to an interview or not whether phone and or face to face.

I've applied to most of those companies and I know citrix has a specialised test, microsoft and google do. AIB have different type of psychometric test depends on the role its more aptitude or statistics test or general aptitude test i've done the statistic one for AIB so don't be assuming there isn't another form of assessment before interviews!

Czarcasm

Gorilla Rising wrote: »

And he could well make those decisions in an IT related environment - an area where he's studied and worked in for some time.

He could, absolutely, but the thing is, that psychometric tests are useful in determining how he is likely to make those decisions, based on the way he thinks.

It may measure a person's ability to perform in a certain subject and context for example, literacy/basic numeracy, but it doesn't mean a person under-performing in such a test, would do so in their chosen field of study/work.

No see psychometric tests aren't about ability, they are about behavioural and attitude assessment, a person's thought processes and the way they think. There IS no under or over performing, it's not an academic test so there is no pass or fail, it's an assessment.

I'd be very skeptical of them myself. I doubt if I was ever in a position of hiring I'd ever use them.

I wouldn't rely on them solely either, but they ARE undeniably a good indicator of a person's personality, their thought processes and their attitude. Despite the OP's claim that large IT companies don't use them, well I know for a fact that Microsoft and Google do use them in the recruitment process.

To give El Gato some perspective on where I'm coming from-

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84353753&postcount=125


Psychometric testing, regardless of how we view it either positively or negatively, IS but one of a number of useful tools in an employers arsenal-

In an age where every decision needs to be justified, backed up and informed by data, psychometric testing contributes a key element of science in an industry that has often relied on gut feel and synergies between the recruiter and jobseeker when making important hiring decisions. In fact, more than 75% of Fortune 500 companies utilize psychometric profiling in recruitment.

Source: http://www.smartrecruiters.com/blog/5-reasons-hiring-managers-use-psychometric-testing/?goback=.gde_3307069_member_228951170


Here's a few jobs El Gato could apply for-

Application Developer with Google

Software Development Manager with Google

And those are just two jobs, available in Dublin, from a quick glance at the Google Jobs Page.

Kichote

Czarcasm, you don't write those tests by any chance?

Psychometric tests are one of the most hated things in the job hunting process

Czarcasm

Kichote wrote: »

Czarcasm, you don't write those tests by any chance?

Psychometric tests are one of the most hated things in the job hunting process

Gorilla Rising

Czarcasm wrote: »

No see psychometric tests aren't about ability, they are about behavioural and attitude assessment, a person's thought processes and the way they think. There IS no under or over performing, it's not an academic test so there is no pass or fail, it's an assessment.

Interesting. I only ever did one and while I was told I scored well, it wasn't has high as they'd have hoped and that they only go onto interview people who score very high.

Got offered a job elsewhere a couple of days later!

Grayson

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ohh right, because being unemployed they have so much better things to be doing, right? Five minutes out of their busy schedule?

The fact that they're even complaining about it shows a distinct lack of motivation tbh. It can be as meaningless as it likes, it's not as if they have much better to be doing with their time, unless they're jobseeking 24/7.

They were complaining that it was a pointless questionaire and that people who answered with the opposite choices recieved the same results. they were not complaining about having to do a questionaire, they were complaining about having to do one that made no sense and gave bogus results.

Czarcasm

El Gato wrote: »

You can always provide a smart answer about making a decision within 4 seconds and making coffee for the other 10. I guess being presented with a problem you have never seen before, you were able to do the same? 4 seconds to make a good decision and 10 seconds to make a coffee? From my experience, a new, bespoke software project requires a lot more than 4 seconds to make a decision, regardless of how many you have developed before.

There's the most important three words in that paragraph- from YOUR experience, a new bespoke software project requires a lot more than four seconds tp make a decision. In MY experience, you simply don't have the luxury of even four seconds. Time is money, and bad decisions cost even more money, so you're damn right you have to make the right decision. This requires the ability to think fast on your feet.

So out of all those engineers you have hired how many have you brought forward as a result of a psychometric test? (If you have) Out of those, how many have you progressed through after they scored lowly on the tests that aren't "pass or fail" as you put it?

I don't remember suggesting I personally ever used them, but I have used aptitude tests to determine people's suitability for a role. Psychometric tests give a much broader view of the person. How many people have I played a part in helping them achieve their goals and aspirations? I never kept count is the only honest answer I can give you- you meet a lot of people in 20 years, not just in the field of IT, but in numerous other career paths.

Yet again you make assumptions about me and my 'attitude' based on a post on a thread where I offer my opinion. My 'attitude' and work ethic are the main reasons I have retain the last 2 jobs I had. Oh an because you may have read some of my recent posts, don't make the mistake in thinking I am a fresh out of college 22 year old without industry experience (which is the view you appear to be projecting about me)

I never said anything about you being fresh out of college? You assumed I made that assumption. Those candidates I have helped to achieve their aims have had a lot more than just two jobs btw, and have not achieved their success by trying to retain the job they were in either! Retaining your job is no measure of success- how fast you progress in your chosen career is a much better indicator of success.

For your sake I hope you are a better consultant with a better 'attitude' than you portray here. Personally, working with someone who determines an opinion is "wrong" would not enamor me to retain their services.

Well you see there again you make assumptions. I have worked to put myself in a position where I can choose who I want to work with. I don't have to seek work. Work comes to me. To give you an example-

I provide my services to charities of my choosing for free, and right now I am in the process of overhauling the IT infrastructure, systems and processes of a national charity. I do it because I want to, not because I have to. I'm not a complete philanthropist though, I still charge a hefty premium for my services to businesses, and I've not gone hungry yet!

Your attitude however would not encourage me to either offer you employment, nor enamour me to working with you.

Referencing Dilbert and a rogue sys admin is a poor reflection of how you appear to view me and my skills.

I'm sure you are quite capable academically and technically, but your people skills (or lack thereof) need a hell of a lot of work.