How traditional is your traditional martial art

CIARAN_BOYLE

This is mainly for Traditional Martial Artists here but everyone feel free to chip in within your own comments.

How traditional is your traditional martial art. I'm not asking how traditional is Judo or TKD or Shotokan in general but more specifically how traditional does your Sensei (or if you prefer coach or instructor) make your classes.
In specifics I'm wondering do you follow closely the moves and drills set out on grading syllabuses or do you adopt bits and pieces from other styles. Do you do every kata that your style does, do you drop a few or pick a few up?

As regulars here may know I do Shotokan Karate.

My Sensei skips the Taikyoku katas. That is to say he skips Taikyoku Shodan, Taikyoku Nidan and Taikyoku Sandan because they are incredibly basic and he prefers practising basics for beginners rather than introducing the idea of kata.

Other than that he has eliminated godan kumite entirely from the syllabus. If you are not familiar with godan (five step) kumite (sparing) it when two people are paired and one person throws a punch and the other person steps straight back and executes a set blocking technique, then the puncher does it again in a straight line until they have done it five times. Obviously my Sensei doesn't like the straight movement while waiting for a punch to come and he doesn't like the fact that you are staying in front of an opponent.

In addition to the bits of Shotokan he has eliminated from our dojo he has adopted drills from of other martial arts Shōrin-ryū, Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Judo.

To finish up if you have been caught out at a competition or a course with something your club doesn't do please share.

I train karate within a college club. Almost all the college karate clubs in Ireland are Shotokan so at my first intervarsities I was one of the first to compete in beginners kata. The referee called kihon kata (another name for Taikyoku Shodan) and my response was, what? The referee tried again Taikyoku Shodan, again I didn't know what that was.

Referee called me up out of the competition area, what are you doing here if you don't know any katas and I stupidly respond, this is beginners kata, I know the first kata. Referee looks at me oddly, do you shotokan? I nod and tell him that I do. The referee explains to me that kihon kata is the first kata in the syllabus.

I'm completely confused off at side of the area for kata talking to the ref when one of the seniors in my club runs over and whispers in the ear of the ref, 'Sensei skips kihon kata, Ciarán knows Heian Shodan'.

Since that time I've had to fill the roll of senior club member running over to the ref a couple of times explaining that our club skips kihon kata. I try to do it before the competition starts though.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I train Judo in Portmarnock Judo Club (and one or two others).. Judo in this country is very casual, coaches are on first name terms with students, no strict adherence to a dress code (except in competition) and although there is Kata on judo its mostly practiced coming up to a dan grading and for nothing else.

Other than that we bow onto and off the mat and at the end of practice the class & coach take a bow.

Then its upstairs for a few pints ~ but thats just tradition

I also train BJJ in Rush Fight Academy, there's nothing traditional at all. Just hard training and great craic.

Dyr

Actual title of the thread should probably be "How Japanesey is your Japanese martial art?"

thegreatiam

Johan Prickly Meteorologist wrote: »

Then its upstairs for a few pints ~ but thats just tradition

in 100 years your judo descendants will be complaining that drinking in bars after judo is an outdated tradition.

pearsquasher

We've all seen and heard the cliches..... lots of bowing, lots of "sensei!" this and that and kiai's... all associated with "traditional martial arts". This isn't helped by the wholesale ignorance of teachers who wrap what they do in a Japanese-esque sheath of BS whether its for marketing reasons or to give a sense of oriental mystique... probably both. Then you have the likes of "Angry White Pajamas" and a slew other pulp books over-emphasizing the formalities over the actual training and without explaining the real reasons why things are done the way they are.

I've been to Japanese Dojo in Japan several times, including the massive Budokhan where my martial art often shares the floor-space with other arts and the real deal is far less .......... for lack of a better word.. Japanesey.

Sure there is a little bowing and addressing the teacher as sensei but it isn't militaristic in nature nor overly authoritarian. Its so subtle and part-of-the-furniture that as you get on with training it becomes invisible in no time. You begin to wonder what the hell teachers outside of Japan are really doing. Real sensei act like frendly guides alog yur budo path, not this idea of a drill sergant who must remain unquestioned.

Thankfully the Bujinkan is a modern Japane-centred art with 100% "tradtional" values and ideals where you do not find this theatrical dressing grafted onto the average class. Things are as relaxed as they are in Japan. The folks that look odd are the ones bowing where they don't need to. I've actually had to tell new folks to stop calling me sensei... wodering where they got the idea from at all.

So I just think that the word traditional has these overtones that are merely propagated by ignorance. It suggests this idea that once there was old MA and now there is modern and they are different and if you do the old stuff, then its more real. ... or variation of that idea. In fact genuine MA, as thaught in Japan, have an unbroken continuity that transcends such a simple notions of trad vs modern. Its just training the way its always been.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bambi wrote: »

Actual title of the thread should probably be "How Japanesey is your Japanese martial art?"

actually I was aiming for how much does your martial art follow the book, drills and moves proscribed from a syllabus written down years ago and how much has your instructor adjusted.

But the how japanese is your japanese martial art is interesting as well.

Dyr

You're assuming that is traditional to have a syllabus though

pearsquasher

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

actually I was aiming for how much does your martial art follow the book, drills and moves proscribed from a syllabus written down years ago and how much has your instructor adjusted.

But the how japanese is your japanese martial art is interesting as well.

There are guidelines in Bujinkan, written down. But the best instructors follow what their teacher shows them AND having absorbed the lessons, create new ones.

Its maybe like how any craftsman learns: Become an apprentice, learn some stuff, practice, become a master, teach... and the cycle begins again.

Peetrik

pearsquasher wrote: »

There are guidelines in Bujinkan, written down. But the best instructors follow what their teacher shows them AND having absorbed the lessons, create new ones.

They don't need to create new ones they just need to be able to recognize and steal ones that have been proven to work from other systems.

pearsquasher

Peetrik wrote: »

They don't need to create new ones they just need to be able to recognize and steal ones that have been proven to work from other systems.

I'm sure that's done as well to a small extent but Bujinkan gives you the tools to create endless drills and techniques etc out of itself. Hell I've been training for 24 years and teaching for 7 and do new drills and techniques nearly every class - all based on core Bujinkan principles. Its like having 7 colors and been able to paint a million different pictures. Its helps to have studied with Van Gough though

Peetrik

pearsquasher wrote: »

I'm sure that's done as well to a small extent but Bujinkan gives you the tools to create endless drills and techniques etc out of itself. Hell I've been training for 24 years and teaching for 7 and do new drills and techniques nearly every class - all based on core Bujinkan principles.

I'm not having a pop at Bujinkan, you get good gyms and bad gyms regardless of what style it is, but... I tried Bujinkan for two months and packed it in because at each class, the instructors appeared to be making techniques up as they went along. No testing, never tried against a resisting opponent, just coming up with a short choreography and getting the students to pair off and practice their 7 move awesome combo on each other for 20mins in slow motion.
Again not knocking your style, just that coming up with new techniques on the fly can be terrible.

Why not just master the basics instead of trying to invent new flashy stuff?

pearsquasher

This is going off topitc but..

Why not just master the basics instead of trying to invent new flashy stuff?

You absolutely do try and master the basics. That's practically all my teachers ever do with me. That leads to the "new" stuff...... in time.

Its not about "trying to invent" something either. Basics mastered leads to the ability to instinctively adapt and create techniques (In ANY art not just Bujinkan and not just MA).

I don't think 2 months training will even nearly show you that. You actually need to invest trust and time in the art. That's probably the hardest thing to do in starting any discipline I reckon. From my own experience teaching, 5% of folks stay longer than a few weeks. But the ones who stay.... to see them "get it" after a decent period is why I teach. I have pre-blackbelts doing techniques instinctively now that are really excellent and they don't even know it...but I still need them to get the basics down.

never tried against a resisting opponent

That happens a little later than 2 months in. There's even kata that explicitly instruct the attacker to resist... but they come after the practitioners of the kata are 100% capable of "ukemi". Could be 3 or more years into solid training for that... "Safety first" etc. But, in most dojo there are all sorts of little things to do with resistance within the basics themselves happening all the time.

antybots

pearsquasher wrote: »

That happens a little later than 2 months in. There's even kata that explicitly instruct the attacker to resist... but they come after the practitioners of the kata are 100% capable of "ukemi". Could be 3 or more years into solid training for that... "Safety first" etc. But, in most dojo there are all sorts of little things to do with resistance within the basics themselves happening all the time.

Just curious but does that mean that for up to three years, you won't have experienced training against a fully resisting opponent? That seems like an awful long time compared to, say, a boxing gym where you are sparring fully resisting opponents within weeks.

pearsquasher

But, in most dojo there are all sorts of little things to do with resistance within the basics themselves happening all the time.

Bujinkan is not a sport and there are no rules. In that context what does fully resistant mean and what are the consequences is engaging in that?

There IS randori
There IS resistance to a point
There ARE kata that explicitly allow for resistance
There ARE many drills and exercises involving the other guy not wanting to have a technique applied.

BEFORE most of that is ukemi (breakfallinng, rolling, etc), and a LOT of basics ALL about preventing injury so that you CAN do the above. Sorry of it takes longer than an intro course.:rolleyes:.... or even 3 years. We don't use gloves, padding or have a ref to stop things AND later on weapons are often involved. That's Japanese budo.. THATS traditional.

Peetrik

pearsquasher wrote: »

I don't think 2 months training will even nearly show you that. You actually need to invest trust and time in the art.

No offence to you pearsquasher but thats just bollox. Even 1 month is more than enough time to recognise when someone is making up nonsense techniques (not talking about combos here) as they go along.

pearsquasher wrote: »

Could be 3 or more years into solid training for that... "Safety first" etc. But, in most dojo there are all sorts of little things to do with resistance within the basics themselves happening all the time.

Unless you drill a technique again and again on a fully resisting opponent you don't actually know it, you just know of it. Fully resisted training should be started, as antybots said, within weeks of starting.

Just my opinion

Doug Cartel

Peetrik wrote: »

No offence to you pearsquasher but thats just bollox.

Easy up there, there is no need to be so confrontational. This thread could potentially be very interesting, or it could easily degenerate into a shouting match. The decision is yours as to which direction it takes.

That's a plural "yours" by the way, and applies to everyone posting.

Doug Cartel

As to the issue of needing months or years to figure out if you should continue on with something, I don't agree with it.

A while ago my brother decided he was going to take up judo. I think he went to two classes in one school and one class in another, but in the end he went with BJJ. I can't actually fault him on this decision. He went in with an open mind, and the instructors had their chance to impress him but failed. I can't even imagine telling him he should go train in the judo place for months if it's not what he wants when he could be spending that time training in something that he likes.

pearsquasher

the instructors had their chance to impress him but failed.

There's something about this that doesn't gel with me.

I'll never try and impress someone who pops in. Watch a class, join in, stay if you like it, don't if you don't. Your brothers decision, no matter how open he was, was not only based on what he saw but on his own formed opinions and biases. That's normal and natural and doesn't mean the judo he saw was crap ... or amazing for that matter.

I think the best way for someone to join a class is word of mouth from someone who gets it and just knows their mate will get it. Sort of like "trust me, once you get into it, i think you'll really like it" type vibe. Again, this would be pretty near to how things would have been done traditionally if you imagine how in general, dojo would've been closed-shops traditionally.

Doug Cartel

pearsquasher wrote: »

There's something about this that doesn't gel with me.

I'll never try and impress someone who pops in. Watch a class, join in, stay if you like it, don't if you don't.

Well I'm glad you're so confident in yourself.

Where my club is, we have a lot of competition. There are good BJJ, MMA and Muay Thai, TKD and Aikido schools right on top of us. Within commuting distance there are even more BJJ, MMA and Judo schools available. Most of the people we get through the door would probably be equally happy to go with any of these options.

Our club is part of a university and classes are FREE. It costs almost nothing to train with us. Just a nominal membership fee and the cost of your equipment. It's a pretty good deal.

Yet still we have to try quite hard to get people to join and stick with us. Number one thing is to make people feel welcome, but a close second is to make them feel that they are learning something useful and that we know what we are doing.

hidinginthebush

I've been doing a southern style shaolin (nan-shaolin wuzuchan, or ngor chor, or 5 ancestor kung fu, depending on where you're from) for the last 6 years and I suppose you could call the club quite traditional. While the club's mainly made up of people living over here, we're overseen by a larger club in London headed up by our master, a Malaysian man who's just over 70 now. He himself was overseen by a Chinese grandmaster who passed away around 2001, I think.

When I say we're traditional, I don't mean we all have to don traditional garb, and speak Mandarin in the class, but there there is a syllabus there that is followed, but once again, after you've been training 3 years or so, it's really up to yourself to decide (ie pester your seniors) what other forms / weapons you want to learn. We also spend a bit of time on the meditation side of things, and there's a good deal of thought and sharing on the subject, but it's always related back into how this can benefit you when faced with an opponent. Unlike some other traditional clubs, we do indeed spar in training, hit each other, and practice the whole "resistance" (that's the popular term for it I think?) side of attacking and blocking... what's the point of a martial art that looks pretty but is ultimately impractical, after all.

The main factor, I think anyway, in keeping our club traditional, spending the time working on techniques, drilling them over again and again, rather than being ever-changing and always evolving, is seeing how good you can be when you keep at it. Our aforementioned 70 year old Malaysian master is completely untouchable. Crossing arms with him is an experience in humility, and lesson in how little you actually know.

Charlie3dan

Also a Shotokan practitioner. Along with BJJ and a little Thai Boxing.

In my dojo (I'm a student, not an instructor), it is very traditional. Certainly in terms of ettiquette and discipline. However, when we talk about the syallbus we always say "Grading Syallbus". It's pretty clear that it's a means to an end and a path for progression but not something to be bound by. I think once you are proficient in the syallbus (at any grade) that should free you up to experiment and try more advanced training.

It's a shame that so many struggle with even the basic syllabus, and in my opinion that's down to bad instructors, but that's another issue.

My Sensei skips the Taikyoku katas. That is to say he skips Taikyoku Shodan, Taikyoku Nidan and Taikyoku Sandan because they are incredibly basic and he prefers practising basics for beginners rather than introducing the idea of kata.

I didn't think these Taikyoku/ Kihon kata were actually part of the syallabus (at least, they're not in my organisation). They are simply training tools and officially the first Kata is Hein Shodan. I actually agree with your instructor here, they're too basic to waste time on IMO. I wouldn't even consider them a Kata in some respects.

Other than that he has eliminated godan kumite entirely from the syllabus.

I would disagree with your instructor here though. An instructor has a responsibility to teach the syllabus, of which this is part. He may not favour it, he might point out it's limitations etc but he still has to teach it, that's what a syllabus is. Again, you don't have to be bound by a syllabus, but you either follow it or you don't. Incidentally, I think Godan kumite is excellent for beginners, while accepting what your instructor doesn't like about it(straight line).

In addition to the bits of Shotokan he has eliminated from our dojo he has adopted drills from of other martial arts Shōrin-ryū, Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Judo.

And back to strongly agreeing here. Adding techniques, kata, excersizes-whatever and studying other arts is hugely beneificial once you get a strong base in your own art.

---
Regarding tradition in general, I compare it to the dress code in Golf. You won't be allowed on most golf courses in jeans and t-shirt. Ditto wearing a waist coat for snooker competition or wearing white for wimbledon.
Anyone on the outside can make a quite reasonable cliam that these things are "bollocks" for lack of a better word. But to the practitioners, there is value and merit in these things and if you don't like it, you're in the wrong sport.

Having trained in a heavily traditional style and also non traditional styles, I see the benefit of both and I enjoy both.

Zen65

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

My Sensei skips the Taikyoku katas. That is to say he skips Taikyoku Shodan, Taikyoku Nidan and Taikyoku Sandan because they are incredibly basic and he prefers practising basics for beginners rather than introducing the idea of kata.

Other than that he has eliminated godan kumite entirely from the syllabus. If you are not familiar with godan (five step) kumite (sparing) it when two people are paired and one person throws a punch and the other person steps straight back and executes a set blocking technique, then the puncher does it again in a straight line until they have done it five times. Obviously my Sensei doesn't like the straight movement while waiting for a punch to come and he doesn't like the fact that you are staying in front of an opponent.

In addition to the bits of Shotokan he has eliminated from our dojo he has adopted drills from of other martial arts Shōrin-ryū, Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Judo.

Many Shotokan organisations do not include Funakoshi's Taikyoku katas in their syllabus, and almost none include his original kata "Ten No Kata". That does not mean they are non-traditional, but at a practical level every instructor has to make a call on how much of which syllabus to teach. Students have limited patience, and instructors have limited time to teach.

Funakoshi himself adapted the Okinawan art for Japanese consumption, and he diluted the martial intent in order to make the art more acceptable as a form of exercise. Thus for an instructor to adapt the syllabus a little is itself a traditional thing to do. I do expect that any instructor would cover the basics respectfully and not decline to teach stuff just because s/he is not fond of it.

That said, I personally consider Gohon kumite and Sanbon kumite to be very theoretical and of limited practical value. There is some distance awareness benefit from it, and there is a way of teaching it that emphasises reaction-training, but for the most part I teach what's required by the syllabus and then move on to more interesting and useful stuff. When a student gets to brown belt it is worth revisiting these items for a different purpose.

As for the bowing, I teach this to students for two reasons: to emphasize the importance of respect during training and also because when visiting Japanese instructors arrive they expect to see it. I don't like to be called "sensei" but I like my students to know that they should address the Japanese instructors by that title. Some Japanese instructors themselves have commented that westerners overdo the bowing in classes. I do use Japanese terms in class, because that is universal among karate clubs and so students will understand what any instructor in any club in any country is asking of them in class. I do visibly wince if somebody calls be "sensei" before or after a class . . . that's just plain weird imho.

Adapting karate with other martial arts for self-defence purposes is a good idea. As a TMA instructor I do not want my students to think I am teaching any kind of mixed art, but I do encourage them to learn things from other styles and find what works best for them.

Z

smacl

I think it is all too easy to confuse the terms traditional, formal, and rigid. I practice a traditional martial art, practical tai chi chuan, which is considerably less formal than the wado ryu I practiced many years (decades even) previously. While practical tai chi chuan does include a very broad syllabus, there is no grading, and the order that the syllabus is taught tends to vary as a result. Younger students tend to focus on open full contact and wrestling competition, where older people include more forms, weapons and health aspects. We don't wear uniforms, bow, or refer to the coach as sensei or sifu, simply as that's not part of our tradition. While I respect what many more formal styles do, I find a less rigid, more relaxed approach makes better use of all too limited class times. After drills, conditioning, techniques and sparring in any given two hour class, the time invariably seems too short. Stripping out elements of minimal benefit seems sensible, but identifying those elements is a different story. The more I train, the more I think that the basics are far more important than the advanced stuff.

laoch na mona

I have trained in ITA and TKD ireland clubs. both followed a syllabus but the ITA club was more traditional in that the syllabus was more strictly followed and some emphasis was put on the teaching of the do, while the instructor in the TKD Ireland club changed some movements in the patterns.

however I wouldn't get to hung up on how traditional a particular art is

ryoishin

In fairness to pearsquasher the Bujinkan is so large and attracts so many nuts that anything not thaught by the origional students of Hatsumi should be taken wearily.

I train in a koryu and while the list of techniques has not changed since its founding (it has a little) it is very pragmatic in its approach. Ive been told to go away and make the technique suit my body.

Also alot of the older Japanese martial arts assume that you have done sumo or judo.

In a sense you are being taught a martial art to eventually make something of your own that fits your artributes.

pearsquasher

I'd like to address the issue of exactly what IS a "traditional" martial art in the first place. If you think about it, there is no one definition in modern usage and so you get this idea wrapped in a single word that has many interpretations - and when one conflicts with the other you get the dogmatists arguing.

The most popular definition comes from a place of ignorance with descriptions of the like "They bow and say sensei a lot" or "its the one where they wear pajamas". Obviously, these are best to be ignored no matter how common these ideas are. I blame mass media and films and the subsequent over-orientalization and "McDojoism" of learning combat.... mostly in the pre-internet era - the 70's/80's. You could simply get away with being willfully ignorant back then.

There's also the elitist brigade who want to define their art as being some sort of freeze-frame of an idealist moment in history when the art was at its so-called peak. "Mine's traditional" is short for "My art is old and back then it was the ultimate in fighting discipline so therefore we train that way now and therefore.. well you do the maths".

BUT I think this too comes from a place of ignorance and is another definition that actually flies in the face of what a tradition IS. When you don't have information you fill the space with BS. This definition sounds good but it really isn't and in the information age we don't have an excuse any more to believe it

A traditional martial art is simply the one that follows a fairly linear lineage. For a healthy tradition, there are many
branches going in and out of the lineage in fact. By "branch in" I mean martial information that has being added to the tradition from another art or person and by "branch out" I mean the art has gone off on a tangent from the main line via a master here and there. I guarantee you, there are very few traditions that are 100% linear with no branching. If they are they are likely to be ultra-stylized and probably not much fun.

Traditional martial arts, in the sense I mean, are living Darwinian entities with the potential to die, expand, procreate, falter, split, absorb etc in any given generation. In order for a tradition to survive all of these things must happen to some extent but there are breaking points too. Each tradition, at each point in its history, is also a reflection of the time it's active in. So as weapons change the tradition adapts. As society changes and the rules of civility change, the tradition adapts. To me there is no uber moment back in time when the tradition was the baddest mofo on the block... instead you have a collective forming of ideas, over many generations, to give you the tradition in its current form.

For example, at some point a senior member of a tradition, may have survived a battle using polearms and introduced his knowledge to the tradition where it wasn't there before. Another master may have decided to drop the techniques using certain armor because only his grad-dad wore that kind of armor..... this is tradition. In the current age you have practitioners who have to deal with violence where they are not supposed to injure the opponent - ie mental heath professionals. The art is influenced by this too.

So for me, as practitioner in a living, vibrant tradition, this is how I define it.

cowzerp

Traditional is just a way of been elitist!
Nothing traditional about most Martial arts that would consider themselves traditional

OLDMAN1

cowzerp wrote: »

Traditional is just a way of been elitist!
Nothing traditional about most Martial arts that would consider themselves traditional

could you expand a bit

cowzerp

Just that many Arts consider themselves traditional because they do pointless rituals and wear pointless clothes etc

Most is just so they can think there is something mystical about it!

In normal life if ya behaved like this you'd look like a looney

Dyr

Pointless clothes you say?





Seems kinda weird to me wearing clothes based on historic underwear to me but to each their own.

cowzerp

them clothes benefit the sports there used in.

OLDMAN1

Bambi wrote: »

Pointless clothes you say?





Seems kinda weird to me wearing clothes based on historic underwear to me but to each their own.

i would agree with Cowzerp here, i would not consider those pointless clothing. fair enough the bjj lads do like there patches.

OLDMAN1

what about all the etiquette that some so call TRADITIONAL martial arts have. some of the thing that i have been told by people that have trained in martial arts make me cringe...

pearsquasher

what about all the etiquette that some so call TRADITIONAL martial arts have. some of the thing that i have been told by people that have trained in martial arts make me cringe...

In my experience, training trips to several "traditional Japanese dojo" in Japan itself, etiquette is a cultural thing more so than a martial thing. It's the Japanese culture that is relatively full of etiquette... not particularly its martial arts. In fact I have experienced LESS etiquette in actual "real" dojo in Japan than is some dojo outside of Japan. Those dojo outside THINK they are acting oriental but if the instructor spent any time training in Japan they would see how stupid they look.... like puppets of sorts.

So in my dojo in Kerry, we either shake hands or do a "mamly" nod and a "nice wan" because that's OUR culture. Then we get on with the martial arts of the tradition. The feckin films and ignorance of never-stepped-in-Japan teachers is what leads to this "etiquette" business.... not actual etiquette issues which are just part of the furniture in that culture.

On a side note, to add to the conversation. ALL dojo in Japan are traditional in nature no matter if they are housed in some modern office building or a wooden shack in the mountains. In the Japanese culture, these aspects are superficial. As long as you have a place to study your traditon, you have a dojo. Stick as much stuff on the walls as you want - that's pretty but irrelevant.

Mellor

Bambi wrote: »

Pointless clothes you say?

Seems kinda weird to me wearing clothes based on historic underwear to me but to each their own.

I assume he meant people playing dress-up, as opposed to functional outfits.
We can hardly run around training naked - well suppose if you insist on traditional greco-roman wrestling.

Dyr

Mellor wrote: »

I assume he meant people playing dress-up, as opposed to functional outfits.
We can hardly run around training naked - well suppose if you insist on traditional greco-roman wrestling.

You could go around training in suitable modern clothing as opposed to pimped out underwear from a bygone era. Except that would break the tradition

pearsquasher

It's traditional for some people who don't train TMA's to slag the uniform. (But I think its only a new tradition as opposed to a classical one )

But I will say this...

Clothing is designed by its very nature to be comfortable and allow ease of movement...but there are such things as high-heels and tight pants! If you practice budo, and also wear restrictive clothing it is essential you practice your budo in that attire. ( *Mental note - remind biker students to come in with full kit to practice this)

I know a certain TMA where its in the tradition itself to include practice with highly restrictive clothing purposely worn so that the practitioner can learn to adapt around it. There's even video available to show the sorts of things you can do. (No I'm not talking about Chuck Norris and his tight jeans )

Imagine a fully loaded US a marine in hand to hand with a smock wearing Taliban. All sorts of restrictions and freedoms to do with their attire can be imagined. It turns out the restrictions offered to a armored marine are similar to those of an armored Samurai....and so the tradition connects past and present - its all the same. Your budo should be able to manage it all easily with slight adaptations and I think its worth practicing. I'll get my smock.....

jigglypuffstuff

cowzerp wrote: »

Just that many Arts consider themselves traditional because they do pointless rituals and wear pointless clothes etc

Have to agree with this. Ive trained in Kenpo, TKD and Wushu(A collection of Chinese MA not the sport) and regularly spar with boxers/kickboxers in order to maximize what ive learned. With the Kenpo ive trained 10 years and We only bow for sparring and at the end of class, with Wushu it was similar and I found TKD to be more rigid, yet noticabley the one that i found most useless full of bow this sir that. Fine the kids address me as Sir but only as my instructor states that they should. Id be happy to have them call me by my first name. When i go to Spar with the boxing/kickboxing lads i wear vest and track pants, we have a good laugh ( nobody gets killed ) and we shake hands after and discuss tactics improvements etc :pac:, What you see in movies isn't reality.

Also to address what was stated about practicing against resisting opponents its a true story that if you don't train with some resistance you'll end up failing miserably if the time ever comes that you need to defend yourself. Be under no illusions!

With regards to tradition in kenpo ill teach the younger kids what is written in the syllabus, but ill also teach the older teenagers and adults a second modified application which i consider alot more realistic. It usually consists of 1-2 strikes followed by a joint lock/take-down/choke etc. Fact of the matter is nobody's going to let you stand there with there hand outstretched giving you open targets to hit ( regardless of what you've learned in the past)

Charlie3dan

Originally Posted by cowzerp View Post
Just that many Arts consider themselves traditional because they do pointless rituals and wear pointless clothes etc

The clothes and rituals all have a point to those who practise the art though. You may not know what it is if you've never trained in the art, you may not agree with the points being made, but you should realise that to the practitioners, they are not pointless.

jigglypuffstuff

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The clothes and rituals all have a point to those who practise the art though. You may not know what it is if you've never trained in the art, you may not agree with the points being made, but you should realise that to the practitioners, they are not pointless.

And exactly what point do they serve?? Im a practitioner of several and I think alot of them are pointless!

cowzerp

Makes ya look all oriental and Kratty like, that's it.

Football shorts and jersey are fine for pretty much all movements.

Charlie3dan

pone2012 wrote: »

And exactly what point do they serve?? Im a practitioner of several and I think alot of them are pointless!

Well, I can't address every ritual in every martial art, but I can vouch for every art that I've studied that everything has a purpose.
If you practise arts that you are certain are engaging in pointless rituals, well then do with that what you will.

There may be meaning to some things that you are unaware of or your instructor doesn't explain but that doesn't mean that they are in fact pointless.

And also, you may not agree with the point itself. You may not consider bowing (for example) to be a suitable way to show respect. Regardless, that is the point of the bow for some arts.
The fact that someone may not agree, does not in fact make them pointless.

pearsquasher

And exactly what point do they serve?? I'm a practitioner of several and I think a lot of them are pointless!

Well seeing as you obviously never asked your teachers..or else they didn't know what the point was - why not state the art, the style and the school if you like and the "ritual" you're having issues with and the folks here who might know could tell you what its about. I can only help with things I've seen in Japan in the art that I do, but there may be some crossover.

OLDMAN1

I can't speak for Japanese martial arts but i can say that a lot of the etiquette that some people use in Chinese martial arts is bull****, they most likely trained in a tourist club in Hong Kong for a couple of weeks or are taking it out of Hong Kong Kung Fu movies

smacl

cowzerp wrote: »

Makes ya look all oriental and Kratty like, that's it.

Football shorts and jersey are fine for pretty much all movements.

Shorts are grand. If you're doing any kind of wrestling the uses clothing for leverage (judo, bjj, shuai jiao), you need the right jacket, or you'll be forking out a lot of money to replace ripped jerseys. For other kinds of wrestling, anything too loose fitting or long sleeved isn't great. Very easy to get a dislocated finger that gets wound up in a bit of clothing which suddenly gets yanked away from you. T-shirts that are reasonably snug fitting are a far better bet, cheaper the better, as even these get shredded pretty regularly.

I don't see karate gear as any less functional for the activity than say tennis whites for tennis or cricket gear for cricket. You could play any of these sports in football gear, or play football perfectly well in other sports gear. Whatever floats your boat.

Dyr

I demand that everyone posts the clothes that they train in for comparison/pointing-laughing at.

Boards MA/SD fashion police time has come

pearsquasher

Let's not forget that dress-code and uniforms lend a sense of solidarity and unity to a group of practitioners.... re-enforcing an identification with like-minded people.

This might not gel with some folks sense of individual freedom but if you feel insecure about your sense of self, I can see why you might feel that a uniform amplifies this. I don;t see the really good practitioners getting their pajamas in a twist about it though - they seem to just get on with the training. Funny that...:rolleyes:

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bambi wrote: »

I demand that everyone posts the clothes that they train in for comparison/pointing-laughing at.

Boards MA/SD fashion police time has come

You first

cowzerp

pearsquasher wrote: »

Let's not forget that dress-code and uniforms lend a sense of solidarity and unity to a group of practitioners.... re-enforcing an identification with like-minded people.

Just been respectful to your team mates and helping them learn does the same thing without any pointless expense.

cowzerp

Bambi wrote: »

I demand that everyone posts the clothes that they train in for comparison/pointing-laughing at.

In BJJ you wear a BJJ gi, used to choke and control opponents posture so it's not just a fashion statement.

Dyr

cowzerp wrote: »

In BJJ you wear a BJJ gi, used to choke and control opponents posture so it's not just a fashion statement.

As opposed to what items of clothing that are a fashion statement


And to be honest, most bjj gi's strike me as fashion statements when compared to a judogi, aikidogi etc/