The State of Leinster Rugby's Finances

Bogota

Another thread earlier got me thinking, what are Leinster's finances like? Are they in anyway comparable to some of the top 14 sides?

Leinster have excellent attendances however someone noted earlier that the rent in the RDS is huge. Also I believe Leinster are still paying off the redevelopment of Donnybrook but is that definitely true? I'm pretty sure the redevelopment of Thomond wasn't paid out of Munster's own finances so why the difference with the Donnybrook?

Added to the high attendances is prize money. How much have Leinster pocketed in the last few years from HC wins, television rights and knockout games?

Then Leinster merchandise. Walking around Dublin city you can't help but notice that the amount of Leinster gear on display is huge. They must be making a mint from all the merchandise.

Unlike french teams, Leinster also have a number of players centrally contracted however I've heard before that the IRFU prioritize central contracts for provinces that are struggling more financially, so that SOB doesn't have one but POM does because Leinster can easily afford it whereas Munster would struggle. However I'm not sure how true that is.

Finally Leinster, like Ulster, also seem to have a wealthy benefactor. The redevelopment of the training facilities was paid entirely by a wealthy individual.


So why then, with Leinster's high attendances, prize money, merchandise sales, players on central contracts, wealth benefactors, do I keep hearing that Leinster cant afford to sign a top player?

Surely Leinster should be one of the most wealthy teams in European rugby???? What am I missing?

opinionatedfan

They aren't one of the wealthiest teams in European rugby.

Combined with the economic turndown in Ireland, you'd be surprised by how tight finances are.

thomond2006

The French side would get a lot more TV money than the Irish sides.

andrewdcs

opinionatedfan wrote: »

They aren't one of the wealthiest teams in European rugby.

Combined with the economic turndown in Ireland, you'd be surprised by how tight finances are.

is this based on conversations or some reports that the IRFU put out?

I believe the IRFU takes in all the money and then doles out...

Podge_irl

Ulster don't have a wealthy benefactor. The donation to Leinster was just for the new training facilities and isn't an ongoing thing.

All the prize money goes to the IRFU and is then distributed by them. The large rent and not receiving any money from concessions at the RDS would have quite a sizeable effect on revenue.

That said, I still don't think financies in the IRFU are as tight as people constantly make out. They are making a healthy profit each year.

thomond2006

http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/about/annual_reports.php

[Jackass]

As far as I know, Donnybrook is paid off, but Leinster footed the whole bill as Donnybrook is the only provincial rugby ground owned by the province and not the IRFU, so it was a private investment that was paid off by Leinster only.

RE Prize money, all of that goes directly to the IRFU, not Leinster, and presumably is shared evenly amongst the provinces (or at least Leinster, Ulster and Munster - not sure about Connacht).

The deal with the RDS seems pretty poor also. Leinster get none of the concessions (pints, food etc. - a gold mine) and they pay rent to use the stadium, and most tickets are sold as season tickets, so for actual match days, I don't think Leinster make that much. I think the IRFU take a fair chunk off the use of Lansdowne Road too. I heard before (although not confirmed, could be just made up) that Leinster make about the same for a sell out in RDS (18,500) as Ulster do for a sell out in Ravenhill (12,000).

All the provinces would work off a very similar budget though, as it's all centrally controlled by the IRFU. I read prior to Munsters game with Clermont that Munster have a budget of about 5-6 million per annum and Clermont have a budget of 18 million.

Winters

Provincial rugby in Ireland is actually run at a loss, none of the provinces are profitable. They all have their own budgets but they are all subsidised by the revenue from the national team in the form of central contracts and the academies.

Don't try and compare rugby clubs with football clubs. The difference in revenue is astronomical.

molloyjh

It's hard to know with any great certainty to be honest. I've no idea what and how much goes to the IRFU directly and how much goes to Leinster. Also the cost of the RDS factors into it, but not only that they don't make any money on the bars etc in the ground as that all goes to the RDS as well. What are the revenue streams attached to Leinster?

1. Sponsorship - I'm assuming that all goes to Leinster.
2. TV rights - I assume this goes directly to the IRFU.
3. Gate receipts (including Season Tickets) - Does this go to Leinster?
4. Prize money - This goes to the IRFU
5. Merchandising - I'm assuming this goes to Leinster.
6. IRFU funding

Then look at the outgoings:

1. Player & staff wages
2. RDS rent
3. Donnybrook debt
4. Belfield rent????
5. General overheads, e.g. marketing, electricity etc.

When you put it all down in writing it starts to look fairly obvious that the money isn't there really. There's nowhere near the same kind of TV rights associated with Pro12 as the T14 or the AP.

finatron

Bogota wrote: »

Thomond wasn't paid out of Munster's own finances so why the difference with the Donnybrook?


Unlike french teams, Leinster also have a number of players centrally contracted however I've heard before that the IRFU prioritize central contracts for provinces that are struggling more financially, so that SOB doesn't have one but POM does because Leinster can easily afford it whereas Munster would struggle. However I'm not sure how true that ?

As far as I know irfu put up some of the money and Munsters are paying it back so it been paid out of Munster pocket

Munster struggling to pay players! First i've heard of it

molloyjh

Winters wrote: »

Provincial rugby in Ireland is actually run at a loss, none of the provinces are profitable. They all have their own budgets but they are all subsidised by the revenue from the national team in the form of central contracts and the academies.

Don't try and compare rugby clubs with football clubs. The difference in revenue is astronomical.

It's hard to know to what degree the IRFU "pays" the provinces. Given so much money goes directly to the IRFU (such as TV rights and prize money) we never really see an accurate picture of the amount that a province spends versus what it generates.

Also, SOB was apparently offered a central contract which he turned down. Nothing to do with helping out Munster financially.

[Jackass]

Winters wrote: »

Provincial rugby in Ireland is actually run at a loss, none of the provinces are profitable. They all have their own budgets but they are all subsidised by the revenue from the national team in the form of central contracts and the academies.

Don't try and compare rugby clubs with football clubs. The difference in revenue is astronomical.

That's not entirely true, as the IRFU get all the money the provinces make with the exception of gate receipts.

Mick Dawson, Leinster CEO, said a number of years ago (5 or 6 years) that Leinster would be a sustainable body on its own, if it separated from the IRFU. The last couple of years for example, Leinster would be raking in a serious amount of cash from TV and Prize money, as well as receipts from big games in the Aviva.

It's all swings and round abouts though, Leinster have brought in millions through Heineken Cup over the last few years, Munster running at a loss now, used to bring in that money, and Ulster probably will in future.

The only thing about Leinster is that long term they're not positioned as well as Munster and Ulster, as once their stadiums are paid off they'll be cash cows, but Leinster will still be paying rent, and the deal we have with the RDS is absolutely terrible.

Winters

[Jackass] wrote: »

The only thing about Leinster is that long term they're not positioned as well as Munster and Ulster, as once their stadiums are paid off they'll be cash cows, but Leinster will still be paying rent, and the deal we have with the RDS is absolutely terrible.

What a fantastic position Ulster are in now with the Executive paying for the three Ravenhill stands. Will be a great revenue earner.

Match day hospitality is another area that Leinster is missing out on in the RDS. Munster and Ulster both have a number of hospitality facilities.

spillit67

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's not entirely true, as the IRFU get all the money the provinces make with the exception of gate receipts.

Mick Dawson, Leinster CEO, said a number of years ago (5 or 6 years) that Leinster would be a sustainable body on its own, if it separated from the IRFU. The last couple of years for example, Leinster would be raking in a serious amount of cash from TV and Prize money, as well as receipts from big games in the Aviva.

It's all swings and round abouts though, Leinster have brought in millions through Heineken Cup over the last few years, Munster running at a loss now, used to bring in that money, and Ulster probably will in future.

The only thing about Leinster is that long term they're not positioned as well as Munster and Ulster, as once their stadiums are paid off they'll be cash cows, but Leinster will still be paying rent, and the deal we have with the RDS is absolutely terrible.

RDS are absolutely coining it off Leinster Rugby which is very annoying. Not sure how long there is to go off it but Leinster need to start getting percentages of concessions and more match day revenue.

I'd say our revenue from selling kit matches most worldwide, what % of that we get is another story.

spillit67

I'd like to see Leinster getting more money for the playing talent we produce. We are exporting a hell of a lot of talent but are spending money on making these players what they become. Would be nice for a bit more development money in lieu of that.

Neil3030

Side note, similar topic, but I remember somebody once stating that AC Milan (who play at the municipally owned San Siro) had the same match-day revenue as Plymouth Argyle. Really shows the importance in investing early into stadium ownership to get onto the cash cow asap.

mohawk

Bogota wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the redevelopment of Thomond wasn't paid out of Munster's own finances so why the difference with the Donnybrook?

Munster are paying the IRFU back for the redevelopment of TP

Added to the high attendances is prize money. How much have Leinster pocketed in the last few years from HC wins, television rights and knockout games?

As far as I am aware the IRFU gets most of this pot

Then Leinster merchandise. Walking around Dublin city you can't help but notice that the amount of Leinster gear on display is huge. They must be making a mint from all the merchandise.

Same in Limerick but there was a time the provinces were making nothing at all from merchandising!! Its possible that its Canterbury that makes far more money from selling Leinster jerseys the Leinster does. Without seeing Leinsters cut its hard to know.

Unlike french teams, Leinster also have a number of players centrally contracted however I've heard before that the IRFU prioritize central contracts for provinces that are struggling more financially, so that SOB doesn't have one but POM does because Leinster can easily afford it whereas Munster would struggle. However I'm not sure how true that is.

I heard SOB turned down a central contract. I don't think that they give out central contracts only to players with provinces struggling for money. Its more about keeping key players in Ireland


Not all the French clubs are loaded in fairness. There is alot more money in T14 then the pro12 with regards tv rights.

Robbo

mohawk wrote: »

Munster are paying the IRFU back for the redevelopment of TP

Ambititious as the repayment plan was, haven't they deferred the last two years payments?

CIARAN_BOYLE

mohawk wrote: »

As far as I am aware the IRFU gets most of this pot

All the prize money and 50% of Leinster's share of the gate

mohawk

Robbo wrote: »

Ambititious as the repayment plan was, haven't they deferred the last two years payments?

Yes they have from what I have heard.

Winters

mohawk wrote: »

As far as I am aware the IRFU gets most of this pot

The IRFU gets all of this pot. It is then used to fund Leinster's central contracted players and the academies.

Think of the IRFU as the company head office and the four provinces as regional branches of that company. They are all the same company with their own department budgets.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056760237

LeeroyJones

With regards the realationship with UCD/Belfield am I right in saying that it's a 50-50 partnership? As in, they helped UCD finance the new Sporting facilities in return for Use of Facilities and Office Space?
I could be wrong. Im going to try look it up.

Zuffer

The question posed by the OP cannot be answered by looking at Leinster alone. You need to look at the IRFU's finances, and those of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Connacht. For example, when Munster makes payments to the IRFU for the Thomond Park loan, it's effectively just figures moving from one bit of a spreadsheet to another.

Ultimately, the question is not that of the Leinster finances. It is a twofold question of a) the finances for the IRFU and its branches as a whole and b) the distribution of money amongst those branches (and all the other IRFU activities). I don't know what the rules and formulas are for how the IRFU sets out the budget for each province/branch. However, as a centralised organisation, it could change those rules whenever it wants.

For example, it could (and should, IMO) change the rule that central contracts 'don't count' towards player pay budgets. Instead, the rule could be that central contracts are worth, say, a flat €200K out of the budget (regardless of the actual size of the contract). That would eliminate some of the unfairness that could arise if any one province had an outsized share of centrally contracted players, while not punishing the province that happened to have a couple of the highest paid stars.

For me, I think the real question is; are Leinster getting their fair share of IRFU budget, given the revenue they are responsible for generating? As none of us here know enough of the facts, there is no way for us to have an informed opinion one way or the other.

opinionatedfan

Any rugby fan should be worried about the govt's plan to eliminate drink sponsorship of sporting events. I don't know the in's and out's of it but it sure seems to me that it would weaken the provinces ability to compete even further.

andrewdcs

opinionatedfan wrote: »

Any rugby fan should be worried about the govt's plan to eliminate drink sponsorship of sporting events. I don't know the in's and out's of it but it sure seems to me that it would weaken the provinces ability to compete even further.

look at France. no alcohol sponsorship has taken all the money out of the sport....

Oh no wait!

Clareman

I think if you were to look at the provinces just a senior level then yes they are all making money and could possibly survive without the Union's involvement, but this would mean that the Union's income every year would be seriously impacted and would mean massive cuts to youth development, coaching, ref'ing and the like.

And I think the whole "Drink" sponsorship discussion will have a big impact on the IRFU and the GAA, I think Horse Racing will nearly be destroyed if they bring it in, so I can't see it coming in any time soon.

andrewdcs

Zuffer wrote: »

For me, I think the real question is; are Leinster getting their fair share of IRFU budget, given the revenue they are responsible for generating? As none of us here know enough of the facts, there is no way for us to have an informed opinion one way or the other.

You could say the same about Munsters HC runs over the past 10 years, brining in enough money to the IRFU to help Leinster and Ulster, ultimately, every Irish sucess boosts the finances of all the others... Its the same for all unions, but to a larger egree here.

I think the IRFU does everything it can to make sure the 3 provinces are as equal and as strong as possible, Connacht being the poor relation.

We have basically got 3 clubs and a feeder club, a model the Welsh RFU would probably dream of being able to impose, if the welsh fans and grass roots wern't so culturally tied to their old clubs / left cold by the regional system.

lurtz

LeeroyJones wrote: »

With regards the realationship with UCD/Belfield am I right in saying that it's a 50-50 partnership? As in, they helped UCD finance the new Sporting facilities in return for Use of Facilities and Office Space?
I could be wrong. Im going to try look it up.

pretty sure a businessman bought it and gave it to them

decisions

It's not theirs but they do have a very long lease, with very low rent AFAIK.

Honey-ec

andrewdcs wrote: »

look at France. no alcohol sponsorship has taken all the money out of the sport....

Oh no wait!

France has a couple of incredibly wealthy individuals effectively treating some clubs as pet projects and pumping money into them. That is not going to happen in Ireland if the money generated by alcohol sponsorship is removed from the pot.

Bogota

Clubs get paid 500k for every player brought on Lions tour so it looks like Leinster will have made 3million from their 6 players? (Healy, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Kearney)

Surely enough for a 500k contract....................

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bogota wrote: »

Clubs get paid 500k for every player brought on Lions tour so it looks like Leinster will have made 3million from their 6 players? (Healy, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Kearney)

Surely enough for a 500k contract....................

unions get paid 50K not 500K, clubs afaik don't get anything god if it was 500K well that would be something else

ssaye

Bogota wrote: »

Clubs get paid 500k for every player brought on Lions tour so it looks like Leinster will have made 3million from their 6 players? (Healy, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, O'Driscoll, Kearney)

Surely enough for a 500k contract....................

Source?

That seems massive

opinionatedfan

50k per player

ssaye

opinionatedfan wrote: »

50k per player

To confirm so all in 9 players 450K to IRFU and they spend as required.

Winters

I think the players get around 50K too not including bonuses. Sam will get a nice packet too as captain.

The Lions Rugby Ltd. is run out of the 6 Nations office and is owned equally by the four Unions. Doubt the 'clubs' get anything as the players would otherwise be on international tour anyway.

Macy0161

Massive example of hindsight being 20/20 vision, but you'd wonder would the IRFU have been better going for a greenfield/ brownfield site for the national stadium/ Aviva, in conjunction with a Thomond Park capacity ground at Lansdowne Road.

mohawk

Went to the google machine and found this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/9521226/British-and-Irish-Lions-players-are-set-for-the-biggest-pay-out-ever-from-a-Lions-tour.html

Its in sterling and confirms what most posters are saying ie its the unions not the clubs that get the money and of course the players get paid too.
I think I read a similar article once in one of the Irish papers but couldn't be bother look for it.

irishbucsfan

Winters wrote: »

I think the players get around 50K too not including bonuses. Sam will get a nice packet too as captain.

The Lions Rugby Ltd. is run out of the 6 Nations office and is owned equally by the four Unions. Doubt the 'clubs' get anything as the players would otherwise be on international tour anyway.

Yeah I thinkit counts as an international tour for those IRB regulations.

Winters

Macy0161 wrote: »

Massive example of hindsight being 20/20 vision, but you'd wonder would the IRFU have been better going for a greenfield/ brownfield site for the national stadium/ Aviva, in conjunction with a Thomond Park capacity ground at Lansdowne Road.

Why?

Macy0161

Winters wrote: »

Why?

Cramming the 50,000 into the Lansdowne Road site hasn't really worked, plus all the money Leinster (so ultimately the IRFU) are missing out on for the RDS (as listed earlier in the thread between rent, consessions, bars etc).

JustinDee

Macy0161 wrote: »

Massive example of hindsight being 20/20 vision, but you'd wonder would the IRFU have been better going for a greenfield/ brownfield site for the national stadium/ Aviva, in conjunction with a Thomond Park capacity ground at Lansdowne Road.

Two other choices in addition to the Aviva:
Pay through nose at falsely inflated market prices of that time for a new site
or
build on land further out past Newlands Cross with a far larger capacity which, especially with benefit of hindsight, a difficult venue to fill over the course of a year.

Macy0161

JustinDee wrote: »

Two other choices in addition to the Aviva:
Pay through nose at falsely inflated market prices of that time for a new site
or
build on land further out past Newlands Cross with a far larger capacity which, especially with benefit of hindsight, a difficult venue to fill over the course of a year.

I did say in hindsight! It was the right choice at the time, but if we could hop into the delorean...

Podge_irl

I'd rather be going to matches in Ballsbridge than out past the M50.

CatFromHue

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd rather be going to matches in Ballsbridge than out past the M50.

Very much so.

Coburger

spillit67 wrote: »

I'd like to see Leinster getting more money for the playing talent we produce. We are exporting a hell of a lot of talent but are spending money on making these players what they become. Would be nice for a bit more development money in lieu of that.

Could Leinster just move to Aviva and play there. I know it'll be a bit odd playing in a nearly half stadium, a la Edinburgh, but would they have to rent this stadium out or anything?

awec

One of the best features of the Aviva is it's location. In the middle of the city and well serviced by public transport.

The decision made at the time was 100% the correct one.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Coburger wrote: »

Could Leinster just move to Aviva and play there. I know it'll be a bit odd playing in a nearly half stadium, a la Edinburgh, but would they have to rent this stadium out or anything?

Yes. So far they have had to pay approx 500K per match in rent to NLR holdings.

mohawk

Coburger wrote: »

Could Leinster just move to Aviva and play there. I know it'll be a bit odd playing in a nearly half stadium, a la Edinburgh, but would they have to rent this stadium out or anything?

Considering that the IRFU no longer 100% own the stadium, Leinster would probably still have to pay rent. It would also be crap for the players to look up and see loads of empty seats.

Goodluck2me

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ulster don't have a wealthy benefactor. The donation to Leinster was just for the new training facilities and isn't an ongoing thing.

All the prize money goes to the IRFU and is then distributed by them. The large rent and not receiving any money from concessions at the RDS would have quite a sizeable effect on revenue.

That said, I still don't think financies in the IRFU are as tight as people constantly make out. They are making a healthy profit each year.

Surplus!

molloyjh wrote: »

It's hard to know to what degree the IRFU "pays" the provinces. Given so much money goes directly to the IRFU (such as TV rights and prize money) we never really see an accurate picture of the amount that a province spends versus what it generates.

Also, SOB was apparently offered a central contract which he turned down. Nothing to do with helping out Munster financially.

Why on earth would O'Briend turn down a central contract? what's the upside?

opinionatedfan

Goodluck2me wrote: »

Why on earth would O'Brien turn down a central contract? what's the upside?

Not sure his reasons but he certainly did