Tri An Mhi CXIII Middle Distance Triathlon - likely to happen?

tunney

Given the low water temperatures, < 10c I am told and the weather forecast for the next week. Combine that with the ITU rules (http://www.triathlon.org/images/uploads/itusport_competition_rules_20120215.pdf) likely to be a long duathlon or cancelled?

Anyone hear anything solid?

miller82

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

Given the low water temperatures, < 10c I am told and the weather forecast for the next week. Combine that with the ITU rules (http://www.triathlon.org/images/uploads/itusport_competition_rules_20120215.pdf) likely to be a long duathlon or cancelled?

Anyone hear anything solid?

Wasn't there a problem like this last year, i do remember a few saying that they couldn't feel their face in the water.

tunney

elvis jones wrote: »

Wasn't there a problem like this last year, i do remember a few saying that they couldn't feel their face in the water.

<13 degrees Celsius and no race. I gather last year they made it by 0.5 degree.

This year is colder.

elvis jones

tunney wrote: »

<13 degrees Celsius and no race. I gather last year they made it by 0.5 degree.

This year is colder.

Agreed it is colder, i'd say it will be a duathlon if that happens. No doubt they'll leave the decision as late as possible. Could they delay the start time to allow the water to heat ?

miller82

they already are - 12 bells

RacoonQueen

It's a week later this year and it's a later start time but so, so much colder this year. Not sure I'm bothered with the HIM as it is definitely couldn't be assed if its a duathlon.

Any idea what sort of distances it might if it is a duathlon? Not really much point of putting on a swim if its 750...

tunney

RacoonQueen wrote: »

It's a week later this year and it's a later start time but so, so much colder this year. Not sure I'm bothered with the HIM as it is definitely couldn't be assed if its a duathlon.

Any idea what sort of distances it might if it is a duathlon? Not really much point of putting on a swim if its 750...

13.9-13.0 is 750m swim

<13.0 no getting in the water

RacoonQueen

Ah OK, thought they allowed lower temps for shorter swims.

catweazle

Speaking of possible cancellations I see Triathlone have confirmed they are going to cancel their Olympic race this year

sconhome

catweazle wrote: »

Speaking of possible cancellations I see Triathlone have confirmed they are going to cancel their Olympic race this year

Ah here! Pulling a thread O/T!! :rolleyes:

sconhome

It'll be interesting re Tri an Mhi, supposed to be national championships, gonna be pretty disappointed it it goes to a duathlon, though it will suit me better as I've no swimming done in the last 8 weeks (worth talking about).

What would be the format? 5k run, bike , run?

Fazz

I was down at Tri an Mhi on Saturday and even had a dip in the lake.
Expected it to be colder for some reason but granted it wasn't warm.
Seapoint was colder yesterday actually but anyway.

By chance I bumped into the race director.

Official line is as follows:

"No call will be made until race day.
We are very hopeful of a swim going ahead and have a lot of safety precautions etc in place.
We also have a few contingency plans and these will be on the website with the race briefing once uploaded around the week before the race. "


So that was that.

There's no doubt the water is cold at this time of year, and perhaps with hindsight TI may have set the National Champs to be later in the season to ensure the full format goes ahead.

However I'm firmly of the opinion the swim should go ahead and having jumped in feel it will do.
Perhaps a compromise of 2 x shortened loops to keep swim closer to shore and away from the probable colder temps as the lake deepens.

I was only in the shallow area and it was v cold, but manageable in my view.
A sunny day like Saturday was and it should be grand so fingers crossed.

As a national middle distance champs, it would be a crying shame if this was turned into a Duathlon.
I'm not the fastest swimmer by any means, but I signed up for this triathlon and really hope the swim proceeds.

tunney

Fazz wrote: »

I was down at Tri an Mhi on Saturday and even had a dip in the lake.
Expected it to be colder for some reason but granted it wasn't warm.
Seapoint was colder yesterday actually but anyway.

By chance I bumped into the race director.

Official line is as follows:

"No call will be made until race day.
We are very hopeful of a swim going ahead and have a lot of safety precautions etc in place.
We also have a few contingency plans and these will be on the website with the race briefing once uploaded around the week before the race. "


So that was that.

There's no doubt the water is cold at this time of year, and perhaps with hindsight TI may have set the National Champs to be later in the season to ensure the full format goes ahead.

However I'm firmly of the opinion the swim should go ahead and having jumped in feel it will do.
Perhaps a compromise of 2 x shortened loops to keep swim closer to shore and away from the probable colder temps as the lake deepens.

I was only in the shallow area and it was v cold, but manageable in my view.
A sunny day like Saturday was and it should be grand so fingers crossed.

As a national middle distance champs, it would be a crying shame if this was turned into a Duathlon.
I'm not the fastest swimmer by any means, but I signed up for this triathlon and really hope the swim proceeds.

Good to have some actual information!

All good points but if someone gets hurt/sick/killed and the ITU water temp rules were ignored............

mrbungle

Water was 11 degs last year and it went ahead with 2 small laps. It was swimmable but if I hadn't been in twice a week before then I would have bailed on the day.

Sun was out that morning, made no difference.

couerdelion

mrbungle wrote: »

Water was 11 degs last year and it went ahead with 2 small laps. It was swimmable but if I hadn't been in twice a week before then I would have bailed on the day.

Sun was out that morning, made no difference.

Sun might have been in the sky but there was frost on the ground that morning.

I was close to bailing too. When we were called in everyone stood looking at each other till a few of the braver soles made the move and a few of us followed. First few metres I was wondering what on earth I was doing and just promised myself that I would try and make it to the first buoy. It was bitterly cold but I warmed up by the first buoy and completed the swim ok. I'm probably lucky in that I have a fair bit of natural insulation so wasn't too cold in T1 but I heard stories of people sitting for 20mins to try and warm-up.

Ceepo

Also done this race last year,
and it was very cold, infact i would have said that it should have not went ahead, water temp of approx 11/11,5 and air temp was under 10 at the start time, under ITU rules this should have been cancelled,
That said i did enjoy the race when i warmed up after about 20k on the bike.

Can see the swim not going ahead this year,
pressure to go ahead will out way any to cancel, imo

littlemsfickle

amphkingwest wrote: »

It'll be interesting re Tri an Mhi, supposed to be national championships, gonna be pretty disappointed it it goes to a duathlon, though it will suit me better as I've no swimming done in the last 8 weeks (worth talking about).

What would be the format? 5k run, bike , run?

I'd like to know this too - if it were to become a duathlon how long would the first run be likely to be?

Dowee

littlemsfickle wrote: »

I'd like to know this too - if it were to become a duathlon how long would the first run be likely to be?

Not to draw any parallels with Eireman from a few years ago but when that swim was cancelled it was replaced with an approx 5km run.

RacoonQueen

It should be at least 10k, at least make it worth doing.

20k - 93k - 20k would be worth getting out of bed for :pac:

tinydave

Taken from the Tri on Mhi Facebook page

"IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING THE CXIII MIDDLE DISTANCE TRIATHLON:

Dear all.

We have become aware of some false rumours and negative comment regarding the above race. For the avoidance of any doubt the Tri An Mhi CXIII Middle Distance Triathlon will take place on May 18th. It is not cancelled and is not being postponed. We are anticipating, and planning for, a full Middle Distance Triathlon. However as with all triathlons that take place in this country, a decision will be made on race morning following an inspection of every part of the course. Over recent months Club members have been regularly inspecting the route. Some were in for a swim this past weekend, with more heading down this weekend to get in the lake following a lap of the cycle route, or run route, or both. Tri An Mhi are looking forward to hosting another successful event and look forward to welcoming all participants lakeside on the 18th May.

Yours in sport,

Tri An Mhi"

tunney

tinydave wrote: »

Taken from the Tri on Mhi Facebook page

"IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING THE CXIII MIDDLE DISTANCE TRIATHLON:

Dear all.

We have become aware of some false rumours and negative comment regarding the above race. For the avoidance of any doubt the Tri An Mhi CXIII Middle Distance Triathlon will take place on May 18th."

Rumours only prosper in the absence of information.

Given recent conditions and absence of updates was a thread like this REALLY that unexpected?

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Good to have some actual information!

All good points but if someone gets hurt/sick/killed and the ITU (replace Itu with Irish traffic rules) water temp rules ( speed limits or drunk driving) were ignored............

In my mind better to talk about precautions to keep the risk (which their is being alive) as low as possible. We dont stop using cars either and their casuse by far more accidents than in tri.

Precautions
-make it a beach start (or only knee deep start whatever is practicable) so their is no waiting in the water to get cold ( this is where people get most cold if they are in the water and wait for the start that often never seems to happen.)
so be really precise ie if its announced that swim start is in 5 min and 5 min it is not 6min or whatever than athletes can plan.

-Make people aware to keep core temperatures high before the race start ie warm jackets and warm trousers over wetsuit, if air temperature is low. do dryland swim warm up.

-Allow people to wear neopren booties and gloves

-Some hot water being handed out before race start can help.

- Have everybody confirm that they can swim sub 45 min to start not finished after 45 min pulled out of the water if needs shorten swim to 1500m . (its an Irish champ and not a tri a tri you swim faster you produce more heat)

(in pink ) somebody could pee in the lake -shortly before - where they will meassure the water temperature ;-) water temperature would be officially safe. .

RacoonQueen

Has anyone seen the start list for this? Their site says it was going up on April 24th but can't find it...

enzeder

Start list:
http://register.sportstiming.ie/ps/event/TriAnMhiCXIIIMiddleDistanceTriathlon/PreEntries

peter kern

The question now is how much values such a list that is not fully updated since their is quite a few spaces that were given to sponsors and other people not on this list ....I can see at least 4, more likely 5-6 podium contenders that are racing and are not in the list . SO better to wait and get a final start list ( race organicesrs have better things to do right now than to worry about a start list)

Spoke to one of the friendly race organicers today and they doing a great job keeping a calm head despite all those people wanting answers about a swim when answers cant be given before race day ...
Fact is water temp rose 2 -2,5 degrees last week and they have an admirable number of kayaks and boats organized. And they will do everything to make the swim happen.

RacoonQueen

peter kern wrote: »

The question now is how much values such a list that is not fully updated since their is quite a few spaces that were given to sponsors and other people not on this list ....I can see at least 4, more likely 5-6 podium contenders that are racing and are not in the list . SO better to wait and get a final start list ( race organicesrs have better things to do right now than to worry about a start list)

I'm looking more at how many people will finish behind me at this stage anyway(I'd like at least one) With Marie Boland in my age group I won't ever even have an AG chance unless she takes early retirement

littlemsfickle

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I'm looking more at how many people will finish behind me at this stage anyway(I'd like at least one) With Marie Boland in my age group I won't ever even have an AG chance unless she takes early retirement

You could make it worth my while...;)

I'm just kidding, I was actually considering pulling out - I've not really had time to put in the longer training hours for middle distance racing with big exams coming up. I'm doing Alpe d'Huez in July though, so going to do it for training anyway. How are you fixed for it?

RacoonQueen

littlemsfickle wrote: »

You could make it worth my while...;)

I'm just kidding, I was actually considering pulling out - I've not really had time to put in the longer training hours for middle distance racing with big exams coming up. I'm doing Alpe d'Huez in July though, so going to do it for training anyway. How are you fixed for it?

I'm screwed. No spins longer than 60k since November would suggest I shouldn't be trying to run off a 93K bike.

Fazz

Official start list now published. .

http://www.trianmhi.com/index.php/news-and-events/latest-news/item/15-official-start-list-2013-tri-an-mhi-cxiii-kinetica-national-middle-distance-triathlon-championships

Competitive fields, should be a great race.

enzeder

Nerves have officially taken hold...

tunney

Cold out there today #justSayingLike

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Cold out there today #justSayingLike

Us lads with bigger 'bones' don't notice the cold so much.

RacoonQueen

tunney wrote: »

Cold out there today #justSayingLike

Yep, was just talking about this today. Weather has turned cold again and it's even put the heating back on cold.

The Irish sea was OK on Monday. Though I wasn't in it for 40 minutes and it was warm enough in general.

tunney

Apt http://triathlon.competitor.com/2013/05/news/ironman-announces-swimstart-initiative-in-north-america_75537

New WTC policy in NA IMs and HIMs.

Under 11 degrees and the swim aint happening

#JustSaying

Fazz

tunney wrote: »

Apt http://triathlon.competitor.com/2013/05/news/ironman-announces-swimstart-initiative-in-north-america_75537

New WTC policy in NA IMs and HIMs.

Under 11 degrees and the swim aint happening

#JustSaying

thats great but has sweet f a to do with Tri an Mhi seeing as its not a WTC ran triathlon ;-)
(Just saying... )

The water has warmed up, anyone that's been in the sea over the last few weeks knows that and its fine to swim in now.

Tunney - its looking like you've quite the negative agenda here and aren't even racing.
Trying to do non fish a favour or just afraid of a bit of cold water yourself? :-)

The organisers will call it on the day and only if its safe to do so.
I think it is personally and I've been in the water a few times in recent weeks - I was hesitant at start but now it has genuinely warmed to an acceptable coldness.

Its Ireland for gods sake, there are 50+ year olds who swim in the sea with no wetsuits everytime I jump in.

No complaining from them and if it really wasnt safe they'd have all caught pneumonia by now.

Triathletes already have a bad enough name let's not make it any worse!
There is research that cold water and conditions help strengthen immune systems and health.

Enough with the cold negative crap.
If the swim happens great, if not so be it.

tunney

Fazz wrote: »

thats great but has sweet f a to do with Tri an Mhi seeing as its not a WTC ran triathlon ;-)
(Just saying... )

And a bite.....

Fazz wrote: »

The water has warmed up, anyone that's been in the sea over the last few weeks knows that and its fine to swim in now.

And this race is in the sea. right???

Fazz wrote: »

Tunney - its looking like you've quite the negative agenda here and aren't even racing.

Nope started out as an honest query as some computer illiterate friends had concerns. The official response made me laugh and as most know nothing I like more than winding people up.

Fazz wrote: »

Trying to do non fish a favour or just afraid of a bit of cold water yourself? :-)

I don't need a wetsuit these days, black me black and stick an Orca logo on my chest and away I go. Cold is not going to affect me these days!

Fazz wrote: »

The organisers will call it on the day and only if its safe to do so.
I think it is personally and I've been in the water a few times in recent weeks - I was hesitant at start but now it has genuinely warmed to an acceptable coldness.

Good on you. From what I gather this race is going ahead regardless. To be honest it won't bother me if I was doing it what the temperature was.

Fazz wrote: »

Its Ireland for gods sake, there are 50+ year olds who swim in the sea with no wetsuits everytime I jump in.

Then lets change the rules - the point in having rules and not adhering to them?

Fazz wrote: »

No complaining from them and if it really wasnt safe they'd have all caught pneumonia by now.

Triathletes already have a bad enough name let's not make it any worse!
There is research that cold water and conditions help strengthen immune systems and health.

Enough with the cold negative crap.
If the swim happens great, if not so be it.

I don't think that there is anything inherently dangerous about experience open water swimmers swimming in cold water. Be they triathletes or not. However a good proportion of those lining up will not be experience open water swimmers. Some I venture a guess will barely be able to swim.

Cold negative crap??

As I said this started out as an honest query as others didn't see (and I still don't) see any way to reconcile the rule book with what some genuinely fear the water temperatures will be. There was no information forthcoming from the organisers so the thread started. The organisers official response, rather than acknowledging the information void attacked the messenger rather than addressing the query. So yes I wound things up from there.

littlemsfickle

Fazz wrote: »

thats great but has sweet f a to do with Tri an Mhi seeing as its not a WTC ran triathlon ;-)
(Just saying... )

The water has warmed up, anyone that's been in the sea over the last few weeks knows that and its fine to swim in now.

Tunney - its looking like you've quite the negative agenda here and aren't even racing.
Trying to do non fish a favour or just afraid of a bit of cold water yourself? :-)

The organisers will call it on the day and only if its safe to do so.
I think it is personally and I've been in the water a few times in recent weeks - I was hesitant at start but now it has genuinely warmed to an acceptable coldness.

Its Ireland for gods sake, there are 50+ year olds who swim in the sea with no wetsuits everytime I jump in.

No complaining from them and if it really wasnt safe they'd have all caught pneumonia by now.

Triathletes already have a bad enough name let's not make it any worse!
There is research that cold water and conditions help strengthen immune systems and health.

Enough with the cold negative crap.
If the swim happens great, if not so be it.

I'm not afraid of cold water - you get a shock hopping in but then you adjust. The problem I find, is when you get out. I went down to the lake last week and was fine while in swimming but afterwards was shivering for the next hour. Add to this spending the best part of the next three hours on a bike in a wet tri suit where you're upper body doesn't move at all...I don't think it's laughable to be a bit concerned.

sconhome

There was an event in Galway that got absolutely lambasted over the lack of communication from the organisers. Due to other factors it is no more, but the writing was on the wall as numbers were down.

Something similar is going on here.

It is not good enough to say 'I've been in and its fine'.

Rules are rules, for safety, everyone's safety. With deaths occuring in triathlon, particularily in the swim leg are organisers going to play with fire and hush up the facts of the water temperature just to keep the masses happy?

I hope not.

The organisers need to be vocal, let people know what the Plan B and C are.

They've been slow to respond to queries on Facebook (which seems to be the preferred method of contact for most). Despite saying the water temperature was being tested last weekend, no updates.

Now, knowing lake waters this means nothing. A week of rain and the temps will drop 2 degrees possibly more as fresh water springs into the lakes. On the other hand a week of sun and it can rise 2 degrees.

I'm doing it and I've swam in the open water. Get a pissy wet day and the cold will seep through. Get a sunny day and the cold from the swim will ease off on the bike.

Its going to be a decision on the day, but people still need reassurance in the weeks leading up to the event.

PGF

No decision can be made on the water temp until race day. What exactly are people asking on Facebook? What action will they take based on the response? Pull out? Prepare for the worst and hope for the best...

peter kern

where their is problems their is solutions some people look at the problems some go out and find solutions how to keep warm .

RacoonQueen

PGF wrote: »

No decision can be made on the water temp until race day. What exactly are people asking on Facebook? What action will they take based on the response? Pull out? Prepare for the worst and hope for the best...

I think people would like it to be acknowledged that there is a chance of the swim either not going ahead or being shortened and to have an idea of what the plan B is...

PGF

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I think people would like it to be acknowledged that there is a chance of the swim either not going ahead or being shortened and to have an idea of what the plan B is...

Do you expect that from every triathlon you take part in? By that I mean do people query every race organizer to see what the contingency plans are? I would expect everyone to realize that it might be cold and that you'll have to be prepared for that. Some people probably won't be. (They're probably the same people who won't be prepared for open water swimming).

PGF

I was actually at Lough Lene on Monday. There was a guy in swimming for half an hour. Didn't get talking to him but he didn't seem to have any problems. Didn't get in myself as I was there to check out the bike course.

tunney

PGF wrote: »

Do you expect that from every triathlon you take part in?

I would expect every triathlon I do where there is a known safety concern to preemptively address concerns. In a number of ways - acknowledge of the concern, communication of the present state with respect to the concern (be that water quality or water temperature), and communication of the contingency plan.

In this case this whole thread could have been avoided if the following was posted somewhere:
a) We (the organisers) are aware that water temperatures this year are 6-7 degrees below their norm for this time of year
b) We are monitoring the water temperature, it is presently x degrees. This is y less than the minimum 11 degrees it needs to be but we are hopeful with two weeks of reasonable weather the temperature will increase to the minimum
c) In the event that it does not increase the format for the race will be 10km run/90km run/21km run (or whatever)

peter kern

amphkingwest wrote: »

There was an event in Galway that got absolutely lambasted over the lack of communication from the organisers. Due to other factors it is no more, but the writing was on the wall as numbers were down.

Something similar is going on here.

It is not good enough to say 'I've been in and its fine'.

Rules are rules, for safety, everyone's safety. With deaths occuring in triathlon, particularily in the swim leg are organisers going to play with fire and hush up the facts of the water temperature just to keep the masses happy?

I hope not.

The organisers need to be vocal, let people know what the Plan B and C are.

They've been slow to respond to queries on Facebook (which seems to be the preferred method of contact for most). Despite saying the water temperature was being tested last weekend, no updates.

Now, knowing lake waters this means nothing. A week of rain and the temps will drop 2 degrees possibly more as fresh water springs into the lakes. On the other hand a week of sun and it can rise 2 degrees.

I'm doing it and I've swam in the open water. Get a pissy wet day and the cold will seep through. Get a sunny day and the cold from the swim will ease off on the bike.

Its going to be a decision on the day, but people still need reassurance in the weeks leading up to the event.

I think you are right if triathlon was a soft sport for fragile people than we need to hold hands of everybody and give them reasurances, but this is very contratictive with the Ironman image we try to sell.... where triathletes are really tough people who are faced by nothing and can deal with everything.

This is the national championchips and not a beginner race every body racing their should be experienced and the ones that are not should not do an half in May.

I think you are aware that the decison is not made by the race director its made with saftey officialls ( who have guidlines to follow) - and you know when they will meassure the water temperature ...... on race day .

What is so difficult to bring two pairs of runners with you, and your wetsuit. especially when you darm well know how much a rainy day can change the situation. I am not interested in the plan B I dodnt care if they go straight on the bike or run 1 3 5 km, I prepare 100% that my clients can have the best swim. and all the rest is noise, of which we have to much in triathlon ( and those peole that worry too much what will happen in my mind wont have a good race). I see an 80% chance that some form of swim will happen and we do enough brick sessions to be prepared for the other scenario too.
so where is the issue here .
Just be ready to race and be prepeared for everything. Everybody will do the same race .
be ready for a 1900m swim a 1500m swim a 1 k swim a 750 swim
be ready for a bike tt start be ready for a 1 k run a 3 run a 5 k run and even for a 10,5 k run before the bike and you covered all the boxes that could happen and lets face it.

the race organicer has more boats than any other race I have seen ( maybe with the exemption of the 3 D aquathons that were held a few years ago) so they are doing a fantatic job in terms of providing saftey for the race.


ps water might be 1.5 degree colder than last year but certainly not 6-7.
what we "tough" triathletes always forget is how much the open water swimmer laugh at us for being such wussies and use a wetusit . Swiming the channel with out wetsuit even when you are fat is a really tough test.

sconhome

PGF wrote: »

I was actually at Lough Lene on Monday. There was a guy in swimming for half an hour. Didn't get talking to him but he didn't seem to have any problems. Didn't get in myself as I was there to check out the bike course.

TBH this means nothing in terms of the context of the triathlon.

I'm old school triathlon. I'm doing it to challenge myself, to better myself if I can.

If I fail in the swim, I wasn't prepared.
If the conditions are too rough, I wasn't prepared.
If I miss a cut off, I didn't train enough.

Tough titty Sean, HTFU.

Others may not share this mentality and turn up under prepared and under trained for events. Possibly stretching themselves too thin in terms of over reaching abilities too quickly.

However, it is part of an event organisers role to communicate with people no matter how trivial, inane, repetitive or naive it may be.

Nobody is attacking the event or event organisers yet the responses come across as very defensive. People have asked what is the water temperature, people have been in the lake, a simple 'its 8 degrees' or '10 degrees' answers that question.

Yes, people will then discuss 'it'll never warm up in time', but that opens discussion rather than speculation and negativity.

Peter - I'm ready to race this and any race whatever is thrown in front of me. I also have thermal wear for under the wetsuit, just in case.

Unregistered.

How will the number of boats affect the decision? Where in the rules does it say that you can swim in sub 11 degree water temp if you have X number of boats.

It really doesn't matter how many people you see swimming in freezing water for any length of time. It doesn't matter how hard you are either. When there is a chance that the water will be too cold then some people may want to prepare for the alternative and give themselves a competitive advantage should it be a run-bike-run or whatever.

griffin100

tunney wrote: »

Nope started out as an honest query as some computer illiterate friends had concerns.

I assume you entered them online as well then if they are that computer illiterate?

Jesus lads look at who the OP is - don't feed the troll

tunney

griffin100 wrote: »

I assume you entered them online as well then if they are that computer illiterate?

Jesus lads look at who the OP is - don't feed the troll

LOL.

Yes since race entries (and TI membership) moved online I get phone calls saying "Dave enter us in....", "Dave will you renew my TI membership....". I've no problems doing it. I may however no longer post to find out information about concerns they have about races they are doing.

mloc123

griffin100 wrote: »

I assume you entered them online as well then if they are that computer illiterate?

Jesus lads look at who the OP is - don't feed the troll

You have met Tango? The guy finds it hard to work a stop watch...