Elderly farmers that refuse to hand on family farm

morebabies

I'm just looking for opinions on this subject - we already know that young farmers are in the minority, but why is it that some elderly farmers, even though they are barely physically able for the work, keep hold of the reins of the family farm instead of passing it on to the next generation? And I'm referring specifically to cases where there would be a son(s) or daughter(s) with enough interest and skill to carry it on

Is it that they know nothing else, that they love it, that they are afraid it will be sold or mishandled... I'm genuinely interested and if you have any examples that you can give here, I would love to hear them.

I am thinking of a specific example locally where the elderly post-pension age farmer is clearly physically deteriorating, though mentally sound, is farming in the region of 200 acres with sheep and cattle, but who has made no shape at all to pass it on to a very willing next generation.

Anyone have any ideas, opinions or experiences they'd care to share?

Conmaicne Mara

I think a lot of it is to do with fear. Fear for themselves no longer being relevant as in being the driving force behind the farm, which has been their entire lives in many cases.

It's understandable, but head wreckingly frustrating for the younger people.

jack_rambo

i think its to do with control , their reluctance to pass on the farm was always in sharp contrast to their enthusiasm for working their sons to the bone from they were kids , keeping hold of the reigns gave them an ace to play over and over again

morebabies

jack_rambo wrote: »

i think its to do with control , their reluctance to pass on the farm was always in sharp contrast to their enthusiasm for working their sons to the bone from they were kids , keeping hold of the reigns gave them an ace to play over and over again

In the example I'm thinking of that is so true, and he is now so physically compromised that any job such as dosing, loading livestock in a trailer, is impossible for him to do on his own and he has to call the said next generation to help. It's just I don't know whether I should feel pity for him, having his heart wrapped up in his land, or is it more like the Bull McCabe in The Field...

jack_rambo

morebabies wrote: »

In the example I'm thinking of that is so true, and he is now so physically compromised that any job such as dosing, loading livestock in a trailer, is impossible for him to do on his own and he has to call the said next generation to help. It's just I don't know whether I should feel pity for him, having his heart wrapped up in his land, or is it more like the Bull McCabe in The Field...

why on earth would you feel sorry for him ?

buffalobilly

I think in a lot of cases the old men did not get the farm themselves until they were in there fifties and they think they just have it and want to hold on for as long as possible.

Qualitymark

If farmers had to pay inheritance tax like other businesses and homes, would it make a difference - would they sign over the farm rather than leaving it in a will?

jack_rambo

buffalobilly wrote: »

I think in a lot of cases the old men did not get the farm themselves until they were in there fifties and they think they just have it and want to hold on for as long as possible.

yeah well todays generation cannot stand around while the previous one waits to join the 21st century , they cant afford to

in most cases , the older generation of farmers in ireland were about the most selfish people you could find , couldnt see past the end of their nose , saw their kids as being primarily there to carry buckets of milk

RobertKK

When I was 20 years old, my father was the age for the pension, he couldn't wait to sign the farm over to me, didn't have to wait at all, though he continued to work on the farm and get his state pension.

kfk

Qualitymark wrote: »

If farmers had to pay inheritance tax like other businesses and homes, would it make a difference - would they sign over the farm rather than leaving it in a will?

Farmers have to pay inheritance tax the same as other businesses. What makes you think that farmers are exempt?

jack_rambo

kfk wrote: »

Farmers have to pay inheritance tax the same as other businesses. What makes you think that farmers are exempt?

not unless their inheritting an enormous farm , the threshold for parent to child gift is close to a million when you take advantage of all the loopholes

Manoffeeling

In my case it was pride. Because I have a daughter and a son with a learning disability, I was expected to farm the lad and pass it on to my nephews! The country is full of pride ridden farmers who think they are high and mighty because their name is associated with a townsland. Some old lads take pleasure in holding so much power even if it affects relationships.

Re Rambo- Not a more selfish, small minded, spiteful generation has this little island produced as that current 'plague' of auld farmers. Not them all of course, but a fairly high %.

morebabies

jack_rambo wrote: »

why on earth would you feel sorry for him ?

Well ok I know he's not living in the real world hanging on to it for dear life, but I'm wondering is it a sentimental thing for him, like is his heart invested in the land, and that is me giving him the benefit of the doubt - or is it a more ruthless Bull McCabe "it's all about the land boy" streak, that's what I can't figure out.

kfk

jack_rambo wrote: »

not unless their inheritting an enormous farm , the threshold for parent to child gift is close to a million when you take advantage of all the loopholes

I thought the threshold was a little over €200,000 for parent to child? I know there is agriculture relief which will effectively increase this threshold but isn't there business relief which will allow businesses to be passed on with the same tax reliefs? The post I responded to by Qualitymark implied that there was no inheritance tax for farmers thus singling them out from any other type of business!

jack_rambo

morebabies wrote: »

Well ok I know he's not living in the real world hanging on to it for dear life, but I'm wondering is it a sentimental thing for him, like is his heart invested in the land, and that is me giving him the benefit of the doubt - or is it a more ruthless Bull McCabe "it's all about the land boy" streak, that's what I can't figure out.

the man is perfectly entitled to hold on to his land if he doesnt expect others to be there on call whenever he needs a hand to dose cattle or fence , the older farmers had an unquenchable thirst for cheap - free labour , that was what was so objectionable about them , i know a man who never forced his sons to work on the farm , granted all of them are in jobs and one of them is in australia but they get on incredibly well with him , one of them does farm part time with him , he has a farm which is big enough to earn a living on too without an off farm job , his wife was the boss however and most likely made the sons get educated

jack_rambo

kfk wrote: »

I thought the threshold was a little over €200,000 for parent to child? I know there is agriculture relief which will effectively increase this threshold but isn't there business relief which will allow businesses to be passed on with the same tax reliefs? The post I responded to by Qualitymark implied that there was no inheritance tax for farmers thus singling them out from any other type of business!

unless they lowered it , it used to be close to half a million but with a few other moves , you could bump it up to near a million , very few sons pay inheritance tax upon getting the place from their parents

ps , im not saying they should either

Manoffeeling

The right thing to do is to gift/transfer a little bit every year. I don't have the exact figures but I am aware of a case where a lady is transferring her land and assets to her nephew over a long period. This is purely a tax saving move and a very progressive one in my opinion. I didn't ask too many questions for obvious reasons but it is a move worth considering for some.

mf240

Myself and the father get on really well and I was lucky in that I always knew where I stood.

If we couldn't get along I think I would have made my own path in life.

Cavanjack

jack_rambo wrote: »

the man is perfectly entitled to hold on to his land if he doesnt expect others to be there on call whenever he needs a hand to dose cattle or fence , the older farmers had an unquenchable thirst for cheap - free labour , that was what was so objectionable about them , i know a man who never forced his sons to work on the farm , granted all of them are in jobs and one of them is in australia but they get on incredibly well with him , one of them does farm part time with him , he has a farm which is big enough to earn a living on too without an off farm job , his wife was the boss however and most likely made the sons get educated

I also see that around here too. Those that were forced to help on the farm when younger have little interest in it now and those that were never forced and even discouraged to help out are the ones with all the interest.

kfk

jack_rambo wrote: »

unless they lowered it , it used to be close to half a million but with a few other moves , you could bump it up to near a million , very few sons pay inheritance tax upon getting the place from their parents

ps , im not saying they should either

The threshold in 2009 was over €440,000 but with every budget, it has decreased and is down to €225,000 at the moment. The trouble arrises whne there are any other assets such as shares or houses that are not the family home. A certain percentage of the total value has to be made up from the agriculture business to get agricultural relief. Without it, a farmer could face paying out capital acquisitions tax on the full value of the farm and other investments less the €225,000 from the threshold. This threshold is falling every year so if there is land to transfer, it would be best to do it sooner rather than later.

kfk

Manoffeeling wrote: »

The right thing to do is to gift/transfer a little bit every year. I don't have the exact figures but I am aware of a case where a lady is transferring her land and assets to her nephew over a long period. This is purely a tax saving move and a very progressive one in my opinion. I didn't ask too many questions for obvious reasons but it is a move worth considering for some.

I fairly sure this will build up every time it is transferred. It will eventually catch up and be the same as transferring in one go?

Mal-Adjusted

If a farmer wants to hold onto his land, then it's his to hold on to. if the land is big enough to support several people, he can hire someone to run it (granted, it'd be unlikely).

on the other (more likely) hand, if it's only a strip of land and they refuse to pass it on well after they stopped being able to run it, they're just illogical. could easily be a pride thing but could also be about holding it over someone to get them to work. As was said earlier, the old farmer loves getting free labour and will work you to the bone at the first opportunity.

1chippy

The auld farmer may be partially to blame. The young may not be suitable to receive it either. how many times have farms been drank or lost in the bookies. How many auld lads dont even get a visit once their family geet what they think they deserve. I have seen pensioners scared of their own family once the land was transfered.

morebabies

1chippy wrote: »

The auld farmer may be partially to blame. The young may not be suitable to receive it either. how many times have farms been drank or lost in the bookies. How many auld lads dont even get a visit once their family geet what they think they deserve. I have seen pensioners scared of their own family once the land was transfered.

True, I've also seen many farms sold for drink by the heirs to the kingdom, and heard stories of grandads being wheeled into nursing homes once the land is signed over.

delaval

Why do you want it transferred to you it's not your right. I you want to farm move on and farm there is nothing to stop you. If the owner wants it to go to you it will. What I see are family members jockying for position it's not all the fault of the owner it's his to do with as he pleases.
I got on very well with my parents got well educated and a good training. I wasn't going to hang around waiting so went and leased a farm eventually after milking others cows for a while. I have two brothers farming together and they boubht the farm from my parents as they were other family members to take care of and my parents had to consider their future.

the_syco

I'm thinking it's because as some of them worked seven days a week, they haven't quite figured out what to do when they retire.

I remember when I was a kid, on holidays at my granddads, he never seemed to have a day off, and he'd only be away from the farm for a long spell for mart day. He has since retired, but would've kept himself busy going to mass and holy meetings when he did so.

delaval

My wife and I have no intention of signing our business over to a child who is not interested. This doesn't mean that we're not working hard in the hope that someone will be interested. If they are interested they will have to work and be happy to be a partner in the business but my assets will be mine to the end. I have to consider mine and my wife's security in old age, as other posters have said it has gone wrong too many times.

morebabies

delaval wrote: »

Why do you want it transferred to you it's not your right. I you want to farm move on and farm there is nothing to stop you. If the owner wants it to go to you it will. What I see are family members jockying for position it's not all the fault of the owner it's his to do with as he pleases.

Hey, if you're addressing me as I started the thread, I just posed a question unrelated to my own situation, my parents have no farm or land and were never from a farming background so the issue does not affect me directly at all. I was just asking out of interest, as it's something I've observed in my locality and I think it's a good discussion point about modern Ireland, that's all.

delaval

morebabies wrote: »

Hey, if you're addressing me as I started the thread, I just posed a question unrelated to my own situation, my parents have no farm or land and were never from a farming background so the issue does not affect me directly at all. I was just asking out of interest, as it's something I've observed in my locality and I think it's a good discussion point about modern Ireland, that's all.

Absolutly not. I think it's one of the best threads to have been started in a while, always good to notice the elephant in the room! I have seen this in my own area also. I was only relating my own situation.

morebabies

And to add another negative story, although I am not leaning particularly towards one side or another, I know another farming business that when signed over to the next generation was used to guarantee loans acquired to buy property in Bulgaria at the height of the boom. You can imagine how that has turned out.

delaval

morebabies wrote: »

And to add another negative story, although I am not leaning particularly towards one side or another, I know another farming business that when signed over to the next generation was used to guarantee loans acquired to buy property in Bulgaria at the height of the boom. You can imagine how that has turned out.

There needs to be a steady hand at the wheel;);)

Dont be daft

I think there are a few factors.

There's a reluctance to fade away into insignificance.

Also, your not just handing over a working asset, its your home.
Not in the literal "roof over your head" sense, but rather the one place on the planet that you feel at home.

On the point Chippy made, I know of several sad cases were elderly people have been blagarded once they relinquished the one bargaining chip they had.
At the same time there are situations were the next generation are left in limbo, reluctant to get involved on the farm or advance it, without some kind of guarantee of inheritance.
Its a pity because there are legal mechanisms which can solve the problem but people either don't realize or fear further complicating the matter.

moy83

There is no big need to get it signed over . As delaval said there is nothing stopping anyone going out and leasing there own piece of land and working away at that for awhile .
Every situation is different though there are plenty of of ould farts that like "holding the reins " until they cock their toes , well sad for them .
I dont have our farm , the father is 63 he hasnt mentioned signing over even though my cattle are starting to outnumber his at this stage . Im not too worried he is fairly sound and Im sure it will come the way sometime even though sometimes he threatens to flog the lot and move to spain like dinny from glenroe (when I threaten him with the nursing home) :D

Layinghen

There is an old saying - hold onto the bone and the dogs will follow. I would think a lot of elderly farmers feel that as long as they have the say as to who the farm will go to and how it is to be run they have no fears that they won't be looked after properly when the time comes that they need care.

kfk

Layinghen wrote: »

There is an old saying - hold onto the bone and the dogs will follow. I would think a lot of elderly farmers feel that as long as they have the say as to who the farm will go to and how it is to be run they have no fears that they won't be looked after properly when the time comes that they need care.

Sad situation if that were to be the case. If a person can not trust their own children then who can they trust? And vise versa. I would have had no problem giving up every bit of land for my parents.

Manoffeeling

kfk wrote: »

I fairly sure this will build up every time it is transferred. It will eventually catch up and be the same as transferring in one go?

I am fairly sure she is on the ball with her approach. Enquire

jack_rambo

Layinghen wrote: »

There is an old saying - hold onto the bone and the dogs will follow. I would think a lot of elderly farmers feel that as long as they have the say as to who the farm will go to and how it is to be run they have no fears that they won't be looked after properly when the time comes that they need care.

the wellfare state is incredibly generous towards the elderly in this country , their is no need for any fear about getting old , at least not for those approaching retirement in 2013 , will no doubt be a different story in a few decades

rancher

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I am fairly sure she is on the ball with her approach. Enquire

Before any farmer gives away his farm he has to ask himself where is he going to get a reasonable income to finish out his life.
If you are in a position to answer that question, you should ask them to sit down and discuss it with you.
You will then know where you stand and whether to go off and do something else, also if you are there at at every beck and call to help him he won't be under any compulsion to do anything...you have to work smart.
If you fulfill certain conditions, land is valued at 10% for inheritance tax, so if a son/daughter can get €250,000 tax free, he/she can actually get €2,5 million worth of land tax free, but this allowance came under fierce pressure in the last budget and I'll bet you it won't get through the next budget unscathed, so move as soon as you can

Juniorhurler

kfk wrote: »

Sad situation if that were to be the case. If a person can not trust their own children then who can they trust? And vise versa. I would have had no problem giving up every bit of land for my parents.

Quare things happen with parents. I saw a fella who had retired start back ferretting as a hobby. He was skinning and selling rabbits that he got. The daughters (one of whom had inherited his business) got him put into the mental over it. He was embarrassing the family they said. The older generation need to protect themselves too.

Qualitymark

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Quare things happen with parents. I saw a fella who had retired start back ferretting as a hobby. He was skinning and selling rabbits that he got. The daughters (one of whom had inherited his business) got him put into the mental over it. He was embarrassing the family they said. The older generation need to protect themselves too.

Yikes! First time I've heard that making a decent living in old age qualifies you as mentally ill!

As for the incredible generosity of the welfare state in Ireland, perhaps it should be the way that anyone who speaks of this should have personal experience of it?

(Incidentally, no one seems to have noticed that the government has slid its fingers into your pockets and taken away some €36,000 from those who are 60 or under, by moving their old age pension eligibility back to the age of 68. Why is no one angry about this? It surprises me!)

jack_rambo

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Quare things happen with parents. I saw a fella who had retired start back ferretting as a hobby. He was skinning and selling rabbits that he got. The daughters (one of whom had inherited his business) got him put into the mental over it. He was embarrassing the family they said. The older generation need to protect themselves too.

i dont believe that story

jack_rambo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yikes! First time I've heard that making a decent living in old age qualifies you as mentally ill!

As for the incredible generosity of the welfare state in Ireland, perhaps it should be the way that anyone who speaks of this should have personal experience of it?

(Incidentally, no one seems to have noticed that the government has slid its fingers into your pockets and taken away some €36,000 from those who are 60 or under, by moving their old age pension eligibility back to the age of 68. Why is no one angry about this? It surprises me!)

anyone in their twenties today wont see anywhere near as generous of a pension when they hit retirement age ( whatever it is then ) , they will also contribute a whole lot more , most pensioners today contributed very little to what they are taking out

belcampprisoner

mosy young people don't want to work on the farm

3rdDegree

kfk wrote: »

Sad situation if that were to be the case. If a person can not trust their own children then who can they trust? And vise versa. I would have had no problem giving up every bit of land for my parents.

It's usually not your children you have to worry about. It's their partners. Once they get married, the entire dynamic changes. But considering how many old people do get shafted by their successors, I do think the older generation are right to be careful.

Juniorhurler

jack_rambo wrote: »

i dont believe that story

Your choice. I don't believe you killed all those Russian and Vietnamese soldiers in those movies either.

It happened. His wife got him out the next morning. There was war in the family after. He hasn't spoken to two of his daughters for almost five years over it.

Qualitymark

jack_rambo wrote: »

anyone in their twenties today wont see anywhere near as generous of a pension when they hit retirement age ( whatever it is then ) , they will also contribute a whole lot more , most pensioners today contributed very little to what they are taking out

That 'generous' word annoys me: this is insurance (pay-related social insurance) that you've paid for all your life. And paid plenty, Jack Rambo.

catallus

The old guys know how the world works, they've been around long enough; There are only two things in this world - Money and Power; there is nothing else.

Shakespeare knew a bit about trusting one's children too:

King Lear
What, have his daughters brought him to this pass?
Couldst thou save nothing? Didst thou give them all?
Fool
Nay, he reserved a blanket, else we had been all shamed.

kfk

Manoffeeling wrote: »

I am fairly sure she is on the ball with her approach. Enquire

This taken from the revenue site.

How is Gift Tax calculated?

All gifts and inheritances taken by a donee on or after 5 December, 1991 which fall within the same group threshold are aggregated to determine the amount of tax payable on the current gift.

Maybe I am reading it wrong but it looks like they are added up

jack_rambo

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Your choice. I don't believe you killed all those Russian and Vietnamese soldiers in those movies either.

It happened. His wife got him out the next morning. There was war in the family after. He hasn't spoken to two of his daughters for almost five years over it.

well if it happened , it didnt happen in the last ten years, i happen to know something about this area , no one is committed in this country for something like you describe

jack_rambo

Qualitymark wrote: »

That 'generous' word annoys me: this is insurance (pay-related social insurance) that you've paid for all your life. And paid plenty, Jack Rambo.

thats a common perception but its false , those recieving the contributory need only have paid a relativley small amount of PRSI for a relativley short period of time , those that never paid anything only get 11 euro per week less than those on the contributory , the state pension has more than doubled since 1997

Juniorhurler

jack_rambo wrote: »

well if it happened , it didnt happen in the last ten years, i happen to know something about this area , no one is committed in this country for something like you describe

They may have cited other reasons for having him taken in. I am not privy to that info but the embarrassment was the real reason behind it, from his wifes mouth. Regardless I am not getting into a pissing contest with you over it, believe it or not, your choice.