Why is rent allowance so generous?

Treehousetim

Heres the rent allowance rates for dublin€300, €370,475, €700,€875,€925,€950
depending in how many kids etc.
I'm at a loss to understand why I work my arse off to pay rent when the council fund people who never worked a day,to this impressive extent.
It makes me think we are a stupid nation.
It would be nice to think that working actually has a reward.

ted1

That's the cost of accommodation in Dublin, they tenants could not get accommodation if they had less.

Treehousetim

ted1 wrote: »

That's the cost of accommodation in Dublin, they tenants could not get accommodation if they had less.

Yeh we can't all live where we want. That's why we work harder to earn more.

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

Heres the rent allowance rates for dublin€300, €370,475, €700,€875,€925,€950
depending in how many kids etc.
I'm at a loss to understand why I work my arse off to pay rent when the council fund people who never worked a day,to this impressive extent.
It makes me think we are a stupid nation.
It would be nice to think that working actually has a reward.

Is everyone who is currently in receipt of rent allowance in that 'has never worked a day' category?- got any proof to back that up?

Are you claiming that not one single person ever 'worked their arse off' but lost their job and now find they have to claim rent allowance as they cannot afford to pay rent, utilities, food etc out of the 188 euro JSB they get having paid their stamps for who knows how many years?



Should all those in receipt of rent allowance in Dublin move to where there are even less jobs available but the rent is cheaper?

Should they sell their children?

kiffer

Also worth pointing out that you don't actually get that money.

For example a single person living in shared accommodation falls into the up to 300 euro bracket.
They can only rent a place that costs 300 or less... but they don't get the full amount they have to pay the first 25 quid of each weeks rent themselves, which is 100 quid or so a month so the most they get is 200.. if the room costs less than 300 they get less again.

When I was on the dole I was getting about 50 quid a week rent allowance, when I got a part time job it dropped. Adding on the cost of transport to and from work I was actually only better off by 20 quid for the 3 days worth of work each week.

Also try finding somewhere to live in Dublin for 300.

ABajaninCork

*Sigh*. Here we go again...

Why IS the RA so generous? Is it because the cost of renting anywhere, especially in the capital is so bloody expensive? :rolleyes: In a lot of cases, it doesn't even cover the rent asked for by the landlord. And did the OP know that tenants on RA have to pay at least E35 weekly as a contribution? No, I thought not.

I expect the OP would rather have them live in a tent.

Treehousetim

Not so. Not everyone gets to live where they want. There's a reason rent is very expensive in dublin and some of that reason is rent allowance.

Bannasidhe

ABajaninCork wrote: »

*Sigh*. Here we go again...

Why IS the RA so generous? Is it because the cost of renting anywhere, especially in the capital is so bloody expensive? :rolleyes: In a lot of cases, it doesn't even cover the rent asked for by the landlord. And did the OP know that tenants on RA have to pay at least E35 weekly as a contribution? No, I thought not.

I expect the OP would rather have them live in a tent.

Well, since the OP seems to believe RA is paid by 'the council' I doubt they have done much research beyond looking up the rates for Dublin.

Why are so many people getting RA - which ends up in the bank accounts of private landlords - because there isn't enough 'council'/social housing so people have no choice but to rent from private landlords.

Why isn't there enough 'council' housing?

Are there any employed people living in this subsidised 'council' housing?

Why is NAMA holding on to housing stock when the State is paying millions to private landlords?

Treehousetim

Sorry, I meant paid by the taxpayer

StillWaters

Treehousetim wrote: »

Not so. Not everyone gets to live where they want. There's a reason rent is very expensive in dublin and some of that reason is rent allowance.

No its not. RA was cut fairly drastically in last years budget, and to everyone's surprise it did not result in a lowering of rent in Dublin.

The Council does not pay RA. Here is Joe Duffy's number if you want to discuss this matter, 1850 715 815. It might be even more provocative if you talk about all dem foreigners getting RA.

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

Sorry, I meant paid by the taxpayer

and no one currently claiming RA ever paid tax?

Treehousetim

Treehousetim wrote: »

There's a reason rent is very expensive in dublin and some of that reason is rent allowance.

Oh dear.

Anyway, I will put you in my situation. I am a PhD student currently in my 4th year. I only had 3 years funding, so I currently have no source of income. I can't apply for the dole as I am not looking for a job. I have a job, I am just not being paid for it. In order to pay for food, bills etc, I have to do lots of little things (grinds, correct leaving cert scripts etc.) I have worked just as hard as you, if not more, and I will contribute just as much to Ireland's economy as you when I'm done, if not more. If rent allowance was lowered even slightly, I would be screwed. Very screwed. Do you think I, one of the so called "never worked a day" people you are talking about, should receive a lower allowance as you think everyone who does is just lying on the couch all the day?

ABajaninCork

Treehousetim wrote: »

Not so. Not everyone gets to live where they want. There's a reason rent is very expensive in dublin and some of that reason is rent allowance.

Why don't you read my post properly? What I actually said was:

ABajaninCork wrote: »

*Sigh*. Here we go again...

Why IS the RA so generous? Is it because the cost of renting anywhere, especially in the capital is so bloody expensive? :rolleyes: In a lot of cases, it doesn't even cover the rent asked for by the landlord. And did the OP know that tenants on RA have to pay at least E35 weekly as a contribution? No, I thought not.

I expect the OP would rather have them live in a tent.

It's the same anywhere you go. Believe it or not, there are three other cities other than Dublin. There's Cork, Galway, and Limerick. And it's the same thing in those places too. Fancy that!

miller50841

Seems strange maybe it only happens in some cases but I have worked for a few Landlords doing electrical work and knew one very well and on a few occasions was asked could I collect the check while at the property as it was a good drive away from where the Landlord lived. The check from Welfare/council was for the full amount that the rent was now saying this maybe things have changed.

I work and the girlfriend also and we are renting the last 2 years and get no help whatsoever and I can honestly say it's tough to keep up with the payments, the rent in Dublin & Ireland in general is too high.

The housing system should & has to change.

Why should I work so hard & only end up coming out with a small amount after tax and all the other amounts taken off us when there are people who never worked a day in there life and get housed and money into their pockets the whole system is wrong and badly needs to updated also the idea that people have of been entitled to everything that's 1 word I am sick of hearing.

By the way this is no dig at honest people that have lost their jobs at no fault of there own and understand it's hard times for them, they are the one's that need to be helped.

Treehousetim

No I think your RA should be linked to how much you've worked like nearly everywhere in Europe. As for students, as far as I'm concerned they are working ( training for future of the economy) so they should be given a generous allowance.

ABajaninCork

Treehousetim wrote: »

No I think your RA should be linked to how much you've worked like nearly everywhere in Europe. As for students, as far as I'm concerned they are working ( training for future of the economy) so they should be given a generous allowance.

Erm - it's not in the UK. Did you know that?

COYW

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why is NAMA holding on to housing stock when the State is paying millions to private landlords?

Because people on rent allowance don't want to live in the areas in which those houses are located. Personally, I would offer them one of these properties and if they did not accept it, I would cut their RA. I would love to live in a detached property on a half acre site overlooking the sea but I can't.

There should be a base rate for RA also. None of this nonsense of giving extra for children. It only encourages these people to have more children, from my personal experience.

hollster2

Everyone on rent allowance has not worked a day in there lives my partner was cut to three days because of no work we get ot but before we paid ur own rent paid tax etc its not nice having to claim in but when you need to do everything to support your kids you will so dont stereotype people by what you think is right fyi its paid by hse so obviously do a bit of research before you comment

Treehousetim

There are lots of working people who can't live anywhere close to where they would like with some people having a 4 hour commute. It's the same old rubbish in ireland. Part of the population of this country appears to be shielded from reality and get very defiant if they don't get even a small bit of what they want.

ABajaninCork

Treehousetim wrote: »

There are lots of working people who can't live anywhere close to where they would like with some people having a 4 hour commute. It's the same old rubbish in ireland. Part of the population of this country appears to be shielded from reality and get very defiant if they don't get even a small bit of what they want.

And which part would you be talking about?

Bannasidhe

COYW wrote: »

Because people on rent allowance don't want to live in the areas in which those houses are located. Personally, I would offer them one of these properties and if they did not accept it, I would cut their RA. I would love to live in a detached property on a half acre site overlooking the sea but I can't.

There should be a base rate for RA also. None of this nonsense of giving extra for children. It only encourages these people to have more children, from my personal experience.

That is a huge, sweeping, statement to make for which you haven't produced a shred of evidence.

There is a list of the properties in NAMA available here http://www.nama.ie/about-our-work/properties-enforced/properties-subject-to-enforcement-action/ - it may surprise you to learn that they have properties that do not consist of a detached house on a half acre site over looking the sea but are in fact flats in the greater Dublin (Cork, Galway etc etc) regions - they just sold a flat in Howth for around 95k - wonder how much they 'paid' for it?

As for your base rate - it may surprise you that children are people too and at some point it will not be legal for them to share a room with their parent(s) unless you want us to return to the days of tenements and have several families sharing a room in some decrepit used to be Celtic Tiger mansion.

Should we sterilise people who get RA?

Marsden

Another dole bashing, why should my taxes pay for all those lazy sods thread. RA is paid to people so they wont go homeless and deciding to uproot entire families for the sake of saving a few quid a month won't happen. Also note Dublin county council have no sea view mansions ready for anyone who wants them. I paid taxes for 15 years and find myself recently on RA. I know the justification for these threads is "I'm only talking about those who have been on the dole their whole life", but those people are few and far between, and if they've been unemployed for a long time more than likely have a council house and are not on RA.

The system is flucked up but there are much bigger drains on the economy then RA. Introducing stealth taxes to bail out banks comes to mind. Any keyboard warriors out there who want to have a moan should pop down their local TD's office instead of turning to boards and giving out about people who can barely pay their bills.

Treehousetim

There are people who work who have to "uproot" not infrequently.

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

There are people who work who have to "uproot" not infrequently.

Are you advocating that should one loose ones jobs while living in an urban area where rents are high one should immediately be obliged to relocate one's entire family to a region where rents are low?

:eek:

I know people who did that - but none of them have children so there were no issues with schools, moving kids from friends/family etc. They also now have very little chance of finding employment out in the rural wilds of West Cork...or Leitrim...Roscommon...Limerick...Clare....

Most jobs are available in urban centres hence rent in urban centres are higher. Move to an area with lower rents = less chance of finding employment = claim RA for a longer period of time. It's a classic Catch 22.

Marsden

Treehousetim wrote: »

There are people who work who have to "uproot" not infrequently.

Taking kids from schools and moving people away from where they were born, brought up and seeking employment for the sake of a few months rent allowance won't help in any way. If you move someone to a rural area where they have no contacts their chances of finding employment won't improve. Your idea of dumping anyone who suddenly finds themselves unemployed to the country is nonsense. I had to move myself and family to the midlands for the sake of work before but it's not a solution to lowering the cost of RA.

You've obviously got an axe to grind today tim seeing as this is not your only dole bashing thread, the only people I've known to give out about how their tax money was spent on a regular basis, were seriously unhappy with their own lives. A girlfriend or a hobby might sort you right out.

Treehousetim

Oh cheers mate. Thanks for the tips. You are so wise.

Gatling

Funny how some tax payers think there small amount of tax pays for every body else,

The top 5 % of tax payers pay the majority ,

aN.Droid

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's the same anywhere you go. Believe it or not, there are three other cities other than Dublin. There's Cork, Galway, and Limerick. And it's the same thing in those places too. Fancy that!

+ waterford.

I am renting alone paying 500 a month + bills and work part time. I am not getting any rent allowance. It's hard going but I wouldn't be so harsh to deny people with families who really need it.

OP how many threads are you gonna start today on the same subject matter?

Bannasidhe

Gatling wrote: »

Funny how some tax payers think there small amount of tax pays for every body else,

The top 5 % of tax payers pay the majority ,

Been paying tax at the highest rate since the 1980s mate - I have no issue with my taxes being used to support those in need of S.W.

Treehousetim

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Been paying tax at the highest rate since the 1980s mate - I have no issue with my taxes being used to support those in need of S.W.

Yes of course you don't if you are clearly hugely better off working.

Gatling

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Been paying tax at the highest rate since the 1980s mate - I have no issue with my taxes being used to support those in need of S.W.

Was working 100hrs a week for 13 years until I suffered major health problems forced me to retire

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

Yes of course you don't if you are clearly hugely better off working.

Not really - I teach in distant education too and tbh what I am left with after tax and PRSI and levies barely covers the cost of my petrol to travel to the venues. But still I am not bitching about SW because it is a safety net that all citizens can avail of in time of need. I happen to think that is both a good thing and an important thing.

None of us know what the future holds, and I, for one, believe that a safety net is vital to our society.

murphaph

Treehousetim wrote: »

Not so. Not everyone gets to live where they want. There's a reason rent is very expensive in dublin and some of that reason is rent allowance.

Not any more.

The thresholds are all below the market rates in all Dublin areas these days.

RS tenants are on the move to cheaper areas as LLs refuse to reduce rent to the level the state thought it could force LLs to reduce it so.

Bannasidhe

Gatling wrote: »

Was working 100hrs a week for 13 years until I suffered major health problems forced me to retire

Not having a p*ssing contest - just pointing out that as someone who has been hammered in taxes for decades I have no issue with the existence of a SW safety net to which my considerable taxes contribute.

The alternative to the existence of such a net is no safety net and I would not wish to live - or contribute taxes - to a society like that.

Treehousetim

So you don't mind paying for people on the dole or on the sick who are working on the black economy, or people who are on the ''sick' and have an exemption to work as many hours as they like , 40, 50 hours, and get their primary payment and perks or single mothers claiming to live alone and living with the boyfriend who works and earns full wages?
That's great - you are more tolerant than me. I do have a problem with this though. I find it unfair that people who work are penalised for working in many respects.

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

So you don't mind paying for people on the dole or on the sick who are working on the black economy, or people who are on the ''sick' and have an exemption to work as many hours as they like , 40, 50 hours, and get their primary payment and perks or single mothers claiming to live alone and living with the boyfriend who works and earns full wages?
That's great - you are more tolerant than me. I do have a problem with this though. I find it unfair that people who work are penalised for working in many respects.

Who said I am happy to pay people working in the Black economy??? That is fraud pure and simple and should be treated as such.

As is claiming lone parents while living with a partner....

I think where we differ is that I do not believe the majority of people claiming SW are committing any kind of fraud. I believe the vast majority are people who lost their jobs when the economy nose dived and are now struggling to keep their heads above water nor do I believe every single mother (or father!) is shacked up.

I do not doubt these people exist - I do doubt they exist in the numbers some posters like to claim they do.

Nor do I believe because there are some fraudulently claiming SW we should punish all SW claimants or tar them with the same brush.

We have had many TDs who were found to be dodgy - should we get rid of the Dáil? Or should we actually police these thing properly?

fussyonion

Rent allowance is not generous in a lot of cases.

I was on Rent Allowance and I was entitled to €265 for two adults. The properties I looked at in my area were all around €700 to rent, so it was hard to find anywhere.

I agree, though, that some people are having kids purely to get more rent allowance as it is more generous to families, but not so much for couples.

I also don't think RA should ever be a long term arrangement as it gives no incentive to people who are wanting to get back to work.

The local councils are slowly phasing out RA and getting people to source their own homes via the RAS scheme.

rugbyman

Tim
I agree with most of what you have said, especially the last post.
I find it irritating where people read more into a statement than is in there.

Bannasidhe,
you have worked a lot , you are in favour of a S.W. system,as most are ,(i`d say 99 .9 %) ,clearly you type a lot but most of your replies on here ASSUME something that Tim did not say.

Regards,Rugbyman

murphaph

fussyonion wrote: »

The local councils are slowly phasing out RA and getting people to source their own homes via the RAS scheme.

The councils don't administer the Rent Supplement system and never did. They DO administer the RAS system, which IMO needs serious work to make it attractive to more landlords.

Treehousetim

How is the RAS any different to rent allowance? Looks like the same to me only maybe more generous? You don't work, maybe have a few babies or not, then after turn up, sign up for RAS and expect your need for housing to be met without doing anything in return. Is that how it works?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not having a p*ssing contest - just pointing out that as someone who has been hammered in taxes for decades I have no issue with the existence of a SW safety net to which my considerable taxes contribute.

The alternative to the existence of such a net is no safety net and I would not wish to live - or contribute taxes - to a society like that.

Treehousetim wrote: »

So you don't mind paying for people on the dole or on the sick who are working on the black economy, or people who are on the ''sick' and have an exemption to work as many hours as they like , 40, 50 hours, and get their primary payment and perks or single mothers claiming to live alone and living with the boyfriend who works and earns full wages?
That's great - you are more tolerant than me. I do have a problem with this though. I find it unfair that people who work are penalised for working in many respects.

rugbyman wrote: »

Tim
I agree with most of what you have said, especially the last post.
I find it irritating where people read more into a statement than is in there.

Bannasidhe,
you have worked a lot , you are in favour of a S.W. system,as most are ,(i`d say 99 .9 %) ,clearly you type a lot but most of your replies on here ASSUME something that Tim did not say.

Regards,Rugbyman

Well thank you kindly for your input Rugbyman, but may I just point out that I said I was in favour of a SW system that protects those in need which tim spun to say I am in favour of people committing fraud.

I said no such thing.

Talk about assuming people said things they didn't say....

Marsden

Treehousetim wrote: »

How is the RAS any different to rent allowance? Looks like the same to me only maybe more generous? You don't work, maybe have a few babies or not, then after turn up, sign up for RAS and expect your need for housing to be met without doing anything in return. Is that how it works?

Why put down a scheme if you've no idea how it works? RAS like council houses are there to help low income families afford some standard of living they could otherwise not achieve. You seemed in favour of giving people houses down the country so they wouldn't be claiming rent allowance, yet put down a viable alternative that would incentivise long term unemployed to find work.

Treehousetim

Em working as many hours you like with the exemption or partial capacity or whatever they call it now is totally legit so you can be an 'invalid' ( on the payment with all the household package) and work 80 / 90 hrs a week doing anything you like and earn fully from that so thats legitimate AFAIK.
And AFAIK also, welfare fraud is not uncommon at all.

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

Em working as many hours you like with the exemption or partial capacity or whatever they call it now is totally legit so you can be an 'invalid' ( on the payment with all the household package) and work 80 / 90 hrs a week doing anything you like and earn fully from that so thats legitimate AFAIK.
And AFAIK also, welfare fraud is not uncommon at all.

So because those rules apply (can you please give me a link to where it says this?) to the few who are granted invalidity we should abolish SW?

Funny, any headlines I have read re: SW fraud have mentioned that many cases it was a mistake by the Dept. of Social Protection...

Is fraud really 'not uncommon' - in which case how common is 'not uncommon' and have you any proof? Or is it, as I suspect, one of those 'sure the dogs in the street' know that 'facts'?

Care to acknowledge that I never said I supported fraud?

Treehousetim

Seriously, I don't want to burst your bubble. If you believe there is little fraud, then believe what you want.

murphaph

RAS is superior to RS as it functions like a council house. The tenants are not disincentivised to find work because their RAS rent contribution will increase, but they will not be thrown out of the house. Under RS you work you get no RS.

kingofslaves

RA or any other benefit is not for people who have 'never worked a day in thier life' What about pensioners, disabled, children etc? My g/f ex hubby used to earn 100K a year as editor in a very well known national newspaper, but was made redundant just before Xmas (thanks guys happy xmas !) His ex wife (they have separated due to other reasons) has 4 children (2 his & 2 from previous marriage) But she can't get RA due to him having a large redundancy payoff. They won't give her anything until 'every penny is spent'

Treehousetim

Well that's a good example of how Ireland works

Bannasidhe

Treehousetim wrote: »

Seriously, I don't want to burst your bubble. If you believe there is little fraud, then believe what you want.

I never said I didn't believe there was some fraud - I am simply asking for proof that it is as widespread as people claim.

Not an unreasonable request tim.

Treehousetim

No offence but if you are a lecturer you may have limited exposure to all sides of society. I don't want to tell stories of people I know on this forum but I've personally seen a lot of what I mentioned above, and a lot of people living away from Ireland on the long term sick schemes etc. Its not pretty but its the reality.

rugbyman

Bannasidhe

you said
Well thank you kindly for your input Rugbyman, but may I just point out that I said I was in favour of a SW system that protects those in need which tim spun to say I am in favour of people committing fraud.

I said no such thing.

Talk about assuming people said things they didn't say....



I say ,
you are quite right Tim did as you did and made an ASSUMPTIOn that was



not right


But then you said

`So because those rules apply (can you please give me a link to where it says this?) to the few who are granted invalidity we should abolish SW?`

Tim had not suggested abolishing SW or anything like it.

I dont want to seem a nitpicker but I LOVE rational debate and often learn from it.

Regards,