If not for us the archaeology would be lost anyway...

slowburner

Meathlass wrote: »

I'd love to know where abouts in Tipp these artefacts were looted from, particularly the 28 Medieval coins found in the one location.

robp wrote: »

Considering the finder is dead it might be the case it is not known.

A little more news on the subject here
and the National Museum's press release here

899 artefacts.

dr gonzo

If I could just direct everyone's attention to this comment, taken directly from the journal article posted by SB.

"The government should encourage people to treasure hunt and give a finders fee. Otherwise it will just remain buried. It’s no good in the ground."

This is the exact mentality that made me write the the original post in this thread, and while I dont mean to attack the fella when hes not here to defend himself, I merely highlight his comment as a perfect, succinct example of everything that is wrong with the popular mentality for archaeology.

In one fell swoop he not only advocates the rampant, amateur destruction of our country's heritage, but he would then like us to sell it for profit...

Meathlass

Well said dr gonzo. I also saw another comment on Facebook asking how could this be called looting as the person who originally owned these artefacts is long dead so they don't belong to anyone.

I think the main problem here is that people just don't realise the for archaeologists the artefact isn't the most important thing, it's the 'context' the artefact is found in. On its own, just wrenched out of the ground it is devoid of all its associated information and little more than a pretty keepsake.

I get the impression from this newstory that they may have a lead on the other person involved in this so hopefully jail sentances will be handed down.

dr gonzo

Dear Jesus, I thought the journal was bad...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nowhere-safe-as-treasure-hunters-plunder-our-heritage-sites-for-profit-29285797.html

I had to stop reading the comments for this article because they were making me sick to my stomach. The attitude of the people of Ireland to their own heritage is just abominable. Happy enough to go on about the bloody celts (a myth) while simultaneously advocating the plunder and sale of archaeology to the highest bidder...

Makes me sick.

I apologise, I appear to have ceased adding anything useful to this thread, but I had to vent.

tayto lover

dr gonzo wrote: »

If I could just direct everyone's attention to this comment, taken directly from the journal article posted by SB.

"The government should encourage people to treasure hunt and give a finders fee. Otherwise it will just remain buried. It’s no good in the ground."

This is the exact mentality that made me write the the original post in this thread, and while I dont mean to attack the fella when hes not here to defend himself, I merely highlight his comment as a perfect, succinct example of everything that is wrong with the popular mentality for archaeology.

In one fell swoop he not only advocates the rampant, amateur destruction of our country's heritage, but he would then like us to sell it for profit...

But isn't the Govt giving away part of our heritage too in the form of our oil and gas which would actually sustain the country. So I find their comments a bit hypocritical on matters of this nature.
There should be serious fines for anyone plundering our treasure. I love a visit to the museum.

dr gonzo

tayto lover wrote: »

But isn't the Govt giving away part of our heritage too in the form of our oil and gas which would actually sustain the country. So I find their comments a bit hypocritical on matters of this nature.
There should be serious fines for anyone plundering our treasure. I love a visit to the museum.

They are outsourcing Ireland's oil and gas fields because we, in absolutely no way, have the money or resources to access them. It costs a couple of million each time to sink a well, and the success rate for the Irish reserves is 1 in every 124 or something equally outrageous; compare that to Norway where its 1 in 3. This is why Norway could privatise their reserves and why we cannot. If they arent contracted out to Shell, Exxon etc then we get nothing.

More to the point is this really the same thing? Archaeological materials have more then just an intrinsic value. The museum is tasked with protecting them, not just because they are expensive, but because they represent the heritage of the country and its people. We may be in a recession now but we have a duty to future generations to safe-guard the irreplaceable against the quest for a quick buck. I can certainly see what you would bring up our oil and gas reserves as example if this is the point you were making, but those reserves only represent money, nothing more, and futhermore, we are getting a good deal on them.


I hope that didnt sound snarky by the way tayto lover? its always great to debate these issues, to see all sides.

tayto lover

dr gonzo wrote: »

They are outsourcing Ireland's oil and gas fields because we, in absolutely no way, have the money or resources to access them. It costs a couple of million each time to sink a well, and the success rate for the Irish reserves is 1 in every 124 or something equally outrageous; compare that to Norway where its 1 in 3. This is why Norway could privatise their reserves and why we cannot. If they arent contracted out to Shell, Exxon etc then we get nothing.

More to the point is this really the same thing? Archaeological materials have more then just an intrinsic value. The museum is tasked with protecting them, not just because they are expensive, but because they represent the heritage of the country and its people. We may be in a recession now but we have a duty to future generations to safe-guard the irreplaceable against the quest for a quick buck. I can certainly see what you would bring up our oil and gas reserves as example if this is the point you were making, but those reserves only represent money, nothing more, and futhermore, we are getting a good deal on them.


I hope that didnt sound snarky by the way tayto lover? its always great to debate these issues, to see all sides.

I agree with what you are saying as I didn't know the success ratio was as bad but I would love to read a link to the highlighted bit.
Not questioning your accuracy, just interested.

slowburner

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying as I didn't know the success ratio was as bad but I would love to read a link to the highlighted bit.
Not questioning your accuracy, just interested.

This is the Archaeology forum folks.

cfuserkildare

There are 2 issues here that are vying for position here,

Yes the artifacts need to be held in context, however, if they are not found then we have no idea what our past was like.
If a society doesn't know about they're past, how can they have or maintain any sort of social context or identity?

Meathlass

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Yes the artifacts need to be held in context, however, if they are not found then we have no idea what our past was like.

But if they're looted then they give us very little new information about our past anyway. Looking at the 899 items recovered by the museum there are a large amount of utilitarian household and clothing items e.g. belt buckles. There's also more unusual but by no means rare socketed axes. The coins and gun money while always nice to find don't really do anything bar date a certain layer.

Imagine though if we knew the exact areas these were find, maybe the axe is the only evidence of the Bronze Age in one particular part of Tipperary or the hoard of 28 Medieval coins found in the one location would reveal much about that area's trading and economic life.

I worked on sites in Tipp all through the last decade and it really pains me to think that some of these might have been targeted by looters after we left in the evening.

robp

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There are 2 issues here that are vying for position here,

Yes the artifacts need to be held in context, however, if they are not found then we have no idea what our past was like.
If a society doesn't know about they're past, how can they have or maintain any sort of social context or identity?

We have a phenomenal amount of prehistoric metal in this country, copper, bronze and gold mostly. I am really not a specialist in the area but I am pretty sure only about 00.1% have been found by archaeologists. So many were found years and years ago by farmers, peat cutters etc. This man's activities have now reduced the chance of finding any in context in Tipperary. Archaeologists think in the long term. Even if those two bronze artefacts were not found by archaeologists until the year 2075 that is ok. About 2000 of those early axes have been found in Ireland already. We don't need more for museum exhibits but we do badly need context information.

cfuserkildare

robp wrote: »

We have a phenomenal amount of prehistoric metal in this country, copper, bronze and gold mostly. I am really not a specialist in the area but I am pretty sure only about 00.1% have been found by archaeologists. So many were found years and years ago by farmers, peat cutters etc. This man's activities have now reduced the chance of finding any in context in Tipperary. Archaeologists think in the long term. Even if those two bronze artefacts were not found by archaeologists until the year 2075 that is ok. About 2000 of those early axes have been found in Ireland already. We don't need more for museum exhibits but we do badly need context information.

From what I have been able to read here, it shows a general level of dishonesty attained by the average person on the street here.

When we just assume that bad things will happen, then they will happen.

robp

cfuserkildare wrote: »

From what I have been able to read here, it shows a general level of dishonesty attained by the average person on the street here.

When we just assume that bad things will happen, then they will happen.

Well there are a lot of people who would be honest about telling you they don't care what the archaeologists tell them. Secondly even if they were the perfect citizen and phoned the national museum the same day the stratigraphy of the site may now be mixed beyond repair and dating impossible despite their best intentions.

dr gonzo

cfuserkildare wrote: »

There are 2 issues here that are vying for position here,

Yes the artifacts need to be held in context, however, if they are not found then we have no idea what our past was like.
If a society doesn't know about they're past, how can they have or maintain any sort of social context or identity?

robp wrote: »

We have a phenomenal amount of prehistoric metal in this country, copper, bronze and gold mostly. I am really not a specialist in the area but I am pretty sure only about 00.1% have been found by archaeologists. So many were found years and years ago by farmers, peat cutters etc. This man's activities have now reduced the chance of finding any in context in Tipperary. Archaeologists think in the long term. Even if those two bronze artefacts were not found by archaeologists until the year 2075 that is ok. About 2000 of those early axes have been found in Ireland already. We don't need more for museum exhibits but we do badly need context information.

Exactly the point I was going to make robp. Its definitely important that we are finding stuff, otherwise archaeologist are out of a job, but if finding these artefacts properly means they wont be discovered for hundreds of years I'm completely fine with that. Better the information be put off then lost altogether.

I definitely worry about how short sighted people are in this country, including the archaeology community too. Take Pompeii and Herculaneum as an example. Huge portions of those sites remain deliberately unexcavated because they couldnt be maintained, but also so that future techniques could be brought to bear on them. Obviously we dont have equivalent sites here but I still wonder if we, as a nation, would have had the foresight to leave much of a incredible site like that alone. The shocking level of interference of the Boyne valley complex would lead me to say no.

dr gonzo

robp wrote: »

Well there are a lot of people who would be honest about telling you they don't care what the archaeologists tell them. Secondly even if they were the perfect citizen and phoned the national museum the same day the stratigraphy of the site may now be mixed beyond repair and dating impossible despite their best intentions.

What baffles me is this dichotomy between cultural pride and heritage destruction that exists here. To a certain extent you can understand ignorance with regard to MDing etc, but then there are the people that fully advocate the sale of heritage materials out of the country. These very same people would probably yammer away to an American tourist about Celts and Cuchulainn and Newgrange. They would probably also attack banks for their greed, and the government for their short-sightedness, both of which they hypocritically have in spades by talking about the illegal sale of our heritage. In fact I've even seen someone talking about sticking it to the government by metal detectoring and selling the finds, as if its the government who owns the objects and not the people, and only the government who cares about the long term protection.

Appalling behaviour.

slowburner

dr gonzo wrote: »

Take Pompeii and Herculaneum as an example. Huge.... Obviously we dont have equivalent sites here ...

You never know what lies under our bogs

Fighting Irish

slowburner wrote: »

To a certain extent, archaeology has its origins in the activities of C19th century gentlemen treasure hunters. Treasure hunting was a fashionable and sometimes profitable pursuit.
As time passed, interested people began to understand that simply collecting objects benefited nobody other than the collector.
Archaeology grew out of the need to understand the true story these finds could tell us.
The times of gentlemen treasure hunters are a relatively long way behind us now, thankfully, but there are still some people who just don't understand this.

Contemporary treasure hunters don't seem capable of understanding that the real treasure is the conservation, preservation and sound archaeological investigation of our past.

It should be pointed out that the rising popularity of treasure hunting shows on UK television, combined with the UK's different legislative approach, may be confusing some people. Others feel that if it is allowed in the UK, it should be allowed here.
Irish legislation on archaeology is never going to be amended in favour of treasure hunters.
That is something for which we should be both grateful and proud.

That treasure belongs to all of us. It is my past, my heritage, my treasure... and it is yours.
When someone fails to understand this and seeks out archaeological material for themselves - they are stealing from all of us.

While not everyone who owns a metal detector goes out to intentionally destroy our national heritage or find 'treasure', some do.
That is why we have strict controls on the use of these devices.
The 1970s saw an upsurge in this form of illicit activity by organised groups who stole, sold and exported many priceless artefacts.
That is why the legislation was introduced.

There has been a resurgence in this activity recently, and organised criminal elements have their eyes on our heritage again. The case of the raid on the Swords depot amply demonstrates this.
The heritage of this island is under a threat not seen since the 1970s.

The picture below shows a few examples of what metal detectorists are capable of. It was taken a few weeks ago at one of our most important national monuments.
The entire circumference of the site had been searched, dug and the sods replaced to hide the signs of their handiwork.

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

robp

Fighting Irish wrote: »

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

Out of context objects which will say far less then if they found in a proper excavation.

Why can't amateur history hunters do something safe and useful like geophys surveys. Now that would make them very popular with archaeologists!

slowburner

@Fighting Irish.
Posts advocating the use of metal detectors will not be tolerated on this forum.
Please read the Forum Charter.

Fighting Irish

slowburner wrote: »

@Fighting Irish.
Posts advocating the use of metal detectors will not be tolerated on this forum.
Please read the Forum Charter.

:pac:

dr gonzo

Fighting Irish wrote: »

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

Is that all you think these materials are useful for? Archaeologists dedicate their careers to finding things to stick in glass cases so people can gawp at them...

Fighting Irish

dr gonzo wrote: »

Is that all you think these materials are useful for? Archaeologists dedicate their careers to finding things to stick in glass cases so people can gawp at them...

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

slowburner

Fighting Irish wrote: »

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

You just don't get it do you?
Unlike some posters here whose interest in Archaeology arose out of similar misguided beliefs.
They spent time in this forum and they learned some stuff.
They grew up.
Now they are highly valued contributors.
You refuse to grow up, refuse to learn and you are a member of an ethos which seriously threatens the Archaeology of this island.
Your contributions here are unpleasant, unwelcome and deeply distasteful to people who have a genuine interest in the history and prehistory of this island.

You leave me with no option but to hand out a 2 week ban.

davycc

This post has been deleted.

Meathlass

Fighting Irish wrote: »

What if every MDer kept note of where each object was found?

I've an app on my phone that is just for this, lets you take a pick, it saves the gps coordinates and lets you write a small note

It's not the geographical location that's important though. It's the location in relation to the other archaeological deposits e.g. soils, other artefacts, pits, postholes etc.

Let's take the example of a bronze axe head.

If found by a metal detector who records the location we will know the gps co-ordinates but nothing more. If found by an archaeologist and recorded properly we will know if it was found in a pit, post hole, ditch etc and what relationship these features have to other features on site.

Was the axe found at the bottom of a pit where it had been deliberately deposited and covered over?

Or was it found at the side of a ditch, high up in the backfill where it may have been thrown when moved from its original position. Maybe the soil around it was the remains of a burnt building.

Maybe it was found with other non-metal items from the Iron Age or even Medieval period in which case we can deduce that it was carefully kept for hundreds of years and kept as a status symbol.

There's so much more to be learned when artefacts are found in the correct context. We don't have to dig everything up immediately. Far better to wait until we have more non-obtrusive investigating techniques.

davycc

Fighting Irish wrote: »

There are always going to be bad people in this world, the main fact is if MDing was legal, there would be so much more objects going to our museums

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

Mr Kelly cant even say for sure where these items came from other that the vague Co Tipp area..

& if He dosent know with 100% certanity then he shouldnt be so quick to label them as stolen treasures & be having pompous press conferences like he had just brought down the super evil MD Mafia cartel:rolleyes:.

A judge wouldnt convict a person in a case like this with little evidence apart from purely circumstancial at best..Please dont edit or delete this reply as Im not in breach of the rules this time

dr gonzo

davycc wrote: »

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

Mr Kelly cant even say for sure where these items came from other that the vague Co Tipp area..

& if He dosent know with 100% certanity then he shouldnt be so quick to label them as stolen treasures & be having pompous press conferences like he had just brought down the super evil MD Mafia cartel:rolleyes:.

A judge wouldnt convict a person in a case like this with little evidence apart from purely circumstancial at best..Please dont edit or delete this reply as Im not in breach of the rules this time

Lets discuss this point by point. Listed archaeological monuments on this island number in the tens of thousands; ringforts and fulachts alone are probably 50,000 together, and thats two monument types. When you factor in the catchment areas of these sites then this country starts to get very covered very quickly.

Secondlythe ownership and operation of MD's is licenced on the grounds that you require one...

Thirdly, its not the where that relevent to questions of legality, its the when. Since this mans life span is known, its fairly easy to place his MD days within the time period stipulated by the national monuments act, thus making his activities illegal.

So lets say you somehow own a licenced metal detector, you get permission to operated it on private land that is nicely out of reach of any listed national monuments, and you claim ignorance about any others that might be on the land. Within that miniscule pocket, which is already rediculously unlikely, you might fall through the cracks, except, anything you find of an archaeological nature is already the property of the state. This is not the UK, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts. If you find an artefact and dont report it to the museum within 3 days you are in breach of the national monuments acts and could face prosecution.

In summary, MDing is, for all intents and purpose, 100% illegal, unless you navigate the minefield of legislation that surrounds it, in which case you could keep nothing of historic value anyway. So why bother? If you read the points that many of us have made you will see that the only thing you achieve by going into a field with an MD is the wanton destruction of our heritage. Is your little hobby worth it?

davycc

dr gonzo wrote: »

Lets discuss this point by point. Listed archaeological monuments on this island number in the tens of thousands; ringforts and fulachts alone are probably 50,000 together, and thats two monument types. When you factor in the catchment areas of these sites then this country starts to get very covered very quickly.

Secondlythe ownership and operation of MD's is licenced on the grounds that you require one...

Thirdly, its not the where that relevent to questions of legality, its the when. Since this mans life span is known, its fairly easy to place his MD days within the time period stipulated by the national monuments act, thus making his activities illegal.

So lets say you somehow own a licenced metal detector, you get permission to operated it on private land that is nicely out of reach of any listed national monuments, and you claim ignorance about any others that might be on the land. Within that miniscule pocket, which is already rediculously unlikely, you might fall through the cracks, except, anything you find of an archaeological nature is already the property of the state. This is not the UK, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts. If you find an artefact and dont report it to the museum within 3 days you are in breach of the national monuments acts and could face prosecution.

In summary, MDing is, for all intents and purpose, 100% illegal, unless you navigate the minefield of legislation that surrounds it, in which case you could keep nothing of historic value anyway. So why bother? If you read the points that many of us have made you will see that the only thing you achieve by going into a field with an MD is the wanton destruction of our heritage. Is your little hobby worth it?

I have seen the maps of NM & other archaeoligical sites & familiarised myself with their functions & I wouldnt dream of going near one with an MD in tow.

Im totally against anybody detecting on such sites & Ill fully support jailtime for offenders convicted in the courts.....that image posted earlier of the holes from somebody searching a protected area made my blood boil.

The dead man cannot give us any specific answers & at best Kelly is making an educated Guess.

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Honest, ethical, Hobby detectorists like myself know our localities inside out & know all the protected places to stay far far away from.

Most of the common finds appear to be nails horseshoes bits of old tractor & machine parts a few rusty 20/21century coins & old fishing toxic lead weights.
If I ever did find something of Archaelogical Importance I wouldnt want to keep it anyways I realise its the property of the state I have read the relevant statutes & know what to do .

In regard to having the landowners permission I know this is not "the Uk, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts."

I only mentioned the Landowners Permission in regards to best practice & "the country code" & its recomended for all hobbies that you wish to undertake eg fishing camping shooting hiking etc. Its just common courtesy & decency& respect.

BTW I wouldn't call it a little hobby its hugely popular here & globally.In some countries would be far more popular than Archaeology.Rightly or wrongly as you see it.

Ive been lurking here & contributing too a long time & have a huge love & appreciation for our History & Archaeology & I just want you to see both sides of the coin.I dont have any hidden motives either.

Im not a blackmarket antiquities dealer even though Dr Kelly likes to tar every MDer with the same brush at every chance he gets .

dr gonzo

davycc wrote: »

I have seen the maps of NM & other archaeoligical sites & familiarised myself with their functions & I wouldnt dream of going near one with an MD in tow.

Im totally against anybody detecting on such sites & Ill fully support jailtime for offenders convicted in the courts.....that image posted earlier of the holes from somebody searching a protected area made my blood boil.

The dead man cannot give us any specific answers & at best Kelly is making an educated Guess.

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Honest, ethical, Hobby detectorists like myself know our localities inside out & know all the protected places to stay far far away from.

Most of the common finds appear to be nails horseshoes bits of old tractor & machine parts a few rusty 20/21century coins & old fishing toxic lead weights.
If I ever did find something of Archaelogical Importance I wouldnt want to keep it anyways I realise its the property of the state I have read the relevant statutes & know what to do .

In regard to having the landowners permission I know this is not "the Uk, landowners permission has no bearing on ownership of found artefacts."

I only mentioned the Landowners Permission in regards to best practice & "the country code" & its recomended for all hobbies that you wish to undertake eg fishing camping shooting hiking etc. Its just common courtesy & decency& respect.

BTW I wouldn't call it a little hobby its hugely popular here & globally.In some countries would be far more popular than Archaeology.Rightly or wrongly as you see it.

Ive been lurking here & contributing too a long time & have a huge love & appreciation for our History & Archaeology & I just want you to see both sides of the coin.I dont have any hidden motives either.

Im not a blackmarket antiquities dealer even though Dr Kelly likes to tar every MDer with the same brush at every chance he gets .

I sincerely appreciate that you are conscientious, and I further appreciate that you are even on this forum discussing this issue in the first place. I certainly did not mean my post to insinuate you were out to line your pockets and I apologise that you caught the brunt of that! But for the sake of discussion lets just bring things back to the simplest aspect.

A metal detector is nothing more then a survey tool. I completely understand that you do not want to disturb archaeological remains, and I believe you when you say you would report any such finds accordingly, however, herein lies the problem. Until such time as a more advanced tool becomes available, you are forced to dig the object up to find out what it is you have located. Whether by design, or accident in your case, the fact remains that metal detector use inevitably leads to the destruction of archaeological contexts.

Myself and my fellow boardsies on here are not vehement about this topic because we think you, or any other, is specifically attempting to treasure hunt (though we can agree that many are) but because we think that metal detectorists can and would do an equivalent amount of destruction through simple ignorance as much as through greed, and as such we feel the need to condemn, in the strongest terms, this amateur practice.

Again, I applaud you for talking to us and taking this matter seriously, but can you guarantee to me that MD's can be used without damage to artefacts taking place?

slowburner

davycc wrote: »

The Fact remains that hobby Metal Detecting is 100% legal with landowners permission as is ownership & use once its not being used on or near National Monuments or Archaeological Sites..

davycc wrote: »

You mention licences being needed this is only true if you are undertaking an official licenced archaeoligical dig & are an archaeologist or their staff.

Both of these statements are untrue.

Before making such statements you need to familiarise yourself with the laws on metal detecting here

• Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.

• The term ‘archaeological object’ is a legal one that has a wide meaning and may include lost or concealed cultural objects, including common objects such as coins and objects of relatively modern date including 20th century material.
(This latter point with regard to dating of archaeological objects has been ruled upon in a High Court Judicial Review - Record No 2001 579JR, between S. Gregg Bemis (Applicant) and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Ireland and the Attorney General (Respondents). Judgement of Mr Justice Herbert delivered the 17th day of June, 2005).