Electrification

Cool Mo D

We all know that the DART is the only electric railway in Ireland at the moment, and is going to stay that way for a while, with the remotely possible exception of the Maynooth line.

What I am curious about is why the Maynooth line hasn't been electrified and integrated into the DART years ago. I believe that Clonsilla to Maynooth was only double tracked in 2001 - about the same time as electrification was extended to Malahide. Surely that was the time to electrify to Maynooth too? Did anyone call for this at the time?

Also: prospects for future electrification. Without the interconnector, I can't see anything out of Heuston being electrified, especially since there are a brand new fleet of diesel intercity trains sitting around. Even if the interconnector was built, the lines from Heuston branch out quite a lot - it seems wasteful to electrify Dublin - Cork when there will still have to be diesel services to Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Kerry and Mayo running under the power lines.

The most likely, and practical line to be electrified, I would say is Dublin Belfast. It has the advantage of having frequent commuter trains along much of the route into both Dublin and Belfast that would benefit, along with the Enterprise, which is slow and underperforming, partly due to congestion on the line and relatively frequent stops. Electrification would help here, without the requirement of buying new trains, just swap the locomotives. Also there is the prospect of EU money for the scheme since it is a) international b) on an EU-designated TEN-T route and c) passes through the BMW region.

Losty Dublin

Long and short, it boils down to money and governmental desire of which comes next. When phase one of DART was announced, it was merely renewing the busiest suburban section of Bray-Howth, a service which was literally collapsing and serving roads that were clogged up even in 1970's Dublin. Proposals and tentative plans existed for additional services, including those to Greystones and Malahide, a new line to Tallaght (Now the Luas), Maynooth, Drogheda and Kildare. At the time the decision was made to extend the DART, the then FG/Lab government were fighting by elections in Wicklow and north Dublin; make of that what you will.

When the renewal and investment was done on the Maynooth line, it was indeed single track until about 12 years ago. The decision was made to renew the stations, track and signals as this needed to be done in any case, diesel railcars being a cheaper option to run services for now. The current proposal is for Maynooth, Balbriggan/Drogheda and Hazelhatch to be electrified as part of the so called interconnector/DART underground tunnel; this has been shelved due to a lack of funds with no timeframe for reintroduction.

Thats a very short version; the long one will be very nasty and bitter

shamwari

Losty Dublin wrote: »

At the time the decision was made to extend the DART, the then FG/Lab government were fighting by elections in Wicklow and north Dublin; make of that what you will.

Indeed, and political expediency then has left us with the operational dilemnas we have today. If there was no DART in Malahide, we could have a proper intensive DMU commuter service from Drogheda & Dundalk instead of the chicanery that exists today. Both peak and off-peak DMU's heading north have to frequently trundle along behind a Malahide-bound DART. Talk about wasteful.

Grandeeod

Are we afraid to say it? Michael Lowry TD gave us the Malahide and Greystones DART. Both unnecessary. Not sure about Malahide, but I do know that Greystones was helped along by vigorous campaigning from an IRRS member who lived out there. Heard it from his own lips. Probably posts here, if he'd care to own up to part of the mess caused!

murphaph

If "politics" was removed the Dublin commuter rail system could carry more passengers very quickly. The Maynooth line should be electrified and DARTs should run maynooth/pace-bray with perhaps one tph going on to Greystones. DARTs coming in from the Northern Line should terminate in Connoly shed. Pax should then transfer (the bit Irish people often hate) to (much more frequent) maynooth-bray DARTs to continue to the south inner city. Howth Junction-Howth should be a shuttle only service really.

OR:

DARTs should run Malahide-Bray and ex Maynooth/Pace should terminate at P7 Connolly, quickly reversing back out of the way. Pax would then need to xfer to Malahide-Bray DARTs to continue to south inner city.


Stuffing both lines and their branch lines through Connolly in the effort to give a 0 change journey to every possible passenger leads to constant problems and delays.

GerardKeating

murphaph wrote: »

If "politics" was removed the Dublin commuter rail system could carry more passengers very quickly. The Maynooth line should be electrified and DARTs should run maynooth/pace-bray with perhaps one tph going on to Greystones. DARTs coming in from the Northern Line should terminate in Connoly shed. Pax should then transfer (the bit Irish people often hate) to (much more frequent) maynooth-bray DARTs to continue to the south inner city. Howth Junction-Howth should be a shuttle only service really.

OR:

DARTs should run Malahide-Bray and ex Maynooth/Pace should terminate at P7 Connolly, quickly reversing back out of the way. Pax would then need to xfer to Malahide-Bray DARTs to continue to south inner city.


Stuffing both lines and their branch lines through Connolly in the effort to give a 0 change journey to every possible passenger leads to constant problems and delays.

If they completed the DASH-2 signalling project they could run the full Malahide/Howth and Maynooth/Pace to Grand Canal Dock and then have half the Bray bound train ex-Northern line and the other half from the other line.

MGWR

Well, if they hadn't built the Luas on the Harcourt Street Line, an ideal DART route would be (or have been) Maynooth–Bray via Broadstone, then underground to the Harcourt Street Line, with a stop at the GPO. But it seems like the only thing that can get built underground in Dublin is that Port Tunnel.

As for Greystones, it's going to be ridership that determines viability of the electrification to that station. Reversing electrification is Luddism, pure and simple.

Unless the Interconnector gets re-routed via the city centre, it itself would be transfer-dependent and end up overloading the Loop Line.

murphaph

GerardKeating wrote: »

If they completed the DASH-2 signalling project they could run the full Malahide/Howth and Maynooth/Pace to Grand Canal Dock and then have half the Bray bound train ex-Northern line and the other half from the other line.

Or that.

The point is they could definitely use the current trackwork a lot more effectively with relatively small investment.

Too much money wasted on replacing perfectly fine MkIIIs etc.

flazio

What would be the advantage of using electric trains over the current (sorry) diesel powered commuter railcars?

Losty Dublin

flazio wrote: »

What would be the advantage of using electric trains over the current (sorry) diesel powered commuter railcars?

Electric trains are cheaper to fuel, greener, cleaner, quieter and the trains are simpler to maintain and have a far longer working life. The downside is the upfront cost of the electrical infrastructure to run them and the disruption in constructing same.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

Are we afraid to say it? Michael Lowry TD gave us the Malahide and Greystones DART. Both unnecessary. Not sure about Malahide, but I do know that Greystones was helped along by vigorous campaigning from an IRRS member who lived out there. Heard it from his own lips. Probably posts here, if he'd care to own up to part of the mess caused!

No more of this -- thank you.

- Mod

murphaph

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Electric trains are cheaper to fuel, greener, cleaner, quieter and the trains are simpler to maintain and have a far longer working life. The downside is the upfront cost of the electrical infrastructure to run them and the disruption in constructing same.

They also accelerate away from a standing start faster and can brake later as they are not carrying as much weight in fuel and the traction motors are lighter than the diesel engines in a DMU.

IE should have electrified Maynooth a long time ago tbh. It is a failure of the company that they didn't. No two ways about it.

Losty Dublin

murphaph wrote: »

They also accelerate away from a standing start faster and can brake later as they are not carrying as much weight in fuel and the traction motors are lighter than the diesel engines in a DMU.

That is also right; their performance is exceptional as a whole. In the case of underground sections they are also the only way to go for safety reasons.

murphaph wrote: »

IE should have electrified Maynooth a long time ago tbh. It is a failure of the company that they didn't. No two ways about it.

Yes they certainly should have done so. But as I said earlier on the money wasn't there (The DART finances almost crippled the State) and when the cash was there it was the will of the government didn't push it to the fore and other projects took precedent, rightly or wrongly.

Losty Dublin

GerardKeating wrote: »

If they completed the DASH-2 signalling project they could run the full Malahide/Howth and Maynooth/Pace to Grand Canal Dock and then have half the Bray bound train ex-Northern line and the other half from the other line.

That is the intention if and when the money for DASH-2 is found and the project is completed.

MGWR

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Electric trains are cheaper to fuel, greener, cleaner, quieter and the trains are simpler to maintain and have a far longer working life. The downside is the upfront cost of the electrical infrastructure to run them and the disruption in constructing same.

It's also the ongoing maintenance costs of electrification infrastructure. Only a certain traffic density makes it worthwhile to electrify, too.

Electrification becomes vital in the case of building railways underground, of course; the nigh-impossibility of ventilating underground stations in series for diesel exhaust (never mind steam exhaust) makes it so.

Another electrification-related advantage is that regenerative braking (when so equipped) returns energy back to the electrification infrastructure, rather than dissipating it as heat as a diesel not equipped with storage batteries designed to accept regenerative charge would.

murphaph wrote: »

They also accelerate away from a standing start faster and can brake later as they are not carrying as much weight in fuel and the traction motors are lighter than the diesel engines in a DMU

Acceleration is gearing-dependent rather than purely horsepower-dependent; there are some DMUs out there that can keep up with EMUs in the acceleration department. Diesel power falls off at higher speeds, whereas electric power can be almost unlimited in that department (hence the electric high-speed trains; the only competing alternative in the on-board internal combustion engine department is the gas turbine, e.g. SNCF's TGV 001, which hit nearly 198 mph during tests in 1972).

There are some advantages that higher weight grants on a railway, such as increased adhesive weight (reduces driving wheel slippage); excessive weight would of course result in higher wear on the tracks. In the case of DEMUs (diesel-electric multiple units), one diesel engine can run several traction motors, thus saving weight in terms of mechanical gearing anyhow.

corktina

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That is also right; their performance is exceptional as a whole. In the case of underground sections they are also the only way to go for safety reasons.



Yes they certainly should have done so. But as I said earlier on the money wasn't there (The DART finances almost crippled the State) and when the cash was there it was the will of the government didn't push it to the fore and other projects took precedent, rightly or wrongly.

the cash has never been there....well, only other peoples that we borrowed...

MGWR

corktina wrote: »

The cash has never been there....well, only other peoples that we borrowed...

When you have the state running things, the cash always belongs to those from whom it is borrowed or taxed away from. But if private railway companies can restrict infrastructure building to less than 20 percent of total expenditure, why can't the state?

dowlingm

In my view electrification of Maynooth should be the next step after Line D. That said, the current works (very slow ones) to reduce level crossings at places like Reilly's Bridge will be more electrification friendly (remember the high load at Merrion Gates a while back).

There are large fleet management issues here. The 22000 high density buy was a decision which should have had an alternative analysis not least because they didn't fit the 8 car diagrams needed into Dublin at peak. Since there aren't enough EMUs (even with a refit of the 8200s or even splicing the 2700s onto them somehow which would likely be more expensive than new build) and more than enough DMUs it becomes more than a discussion of capital expenditure, plus a Fairview type depot in Maynooth would likely be required.

For me the best approach would be to build Maynooth-Connolly and Malahide-Drogheda as two phases of the same project, with an "8700 class" purchase of higher speed 4-car EMUs initially operating Malahide-Bray. This would create a surplus of 8100/8500s which would be first given any necessary refurbs and then sent out to Maynooth. When catenary was completed to Drogheda a second delivery of "8700s" would fill the new slots. This then would cause a surplus of DMUs beyond those required for outer suburban and there are some options for what you could do but many involve cash like getting KRP2 done.

It would be easier to discuss these things if IE published a fleet management plan similar to the documents the likes of Amtrak publishes. But commercial confidentiality and arms length management trump the public interest.

MGWR

Just as a reminder: The last Interconnector plan had electrification on the Northern Line going no further north than Balbriggan, and on the Dublin-Cork line it was going no further west than Hazelhatch. Just a little premature to think of EMUs going as far as Drogheda if those are still the plans frozen in place with Varadkar's dismissal of same.

dowlingm

MGWR wrote: »

Just as a reminder: The last Interconnector plan had electrification on the Northern Line going no further north than Balbriggan, and on the Dublin-Cork line it was going no further west than Hazelhatch. Just a little premature to think of EMUs going as far as Drogheda if those are still the plans frozen in place with Varadkar's dismissal of same.

I appreciate that, but it WAS government policy at one point in time. DART EMUs are even seen in Drogheda Depot at present if a 29000 tows them there.

MGWR

dowlingm wrote: »

I appreciate that, but it WAS government policy at one point in time. DART EMUs are even seen in Drogheda Depot at present if a 29000 tows them there.

It's a bit of a stretch to call the word of an IE spokesperson "government policy", especially while mired in the throes of the economic crisis.

Not to mention that using present-day DART EMUs will be a downgrade of the service, what with those EMUs being slower than the DMUs and having no restrooms.

I don't see the majority of passengers from Drogheda taking kindly to being re-routed out of Connolly towards the Docklands either.

dowlingm

MGWR wrote: »

It's a bit of a stretch to call the word of an IE spokesperson "government policy", especially while mired in the throes of the economic crisis.

Not to mention that using present-day DART EMUs will be a downgrade of the service, what with those EMUs being slower than the DMUs and having no restrooms.

I don't see the majority of passengers from Drogheda taking kindly to being re-routed out of Connolly towards the Docklands either.

What on earth are you on about. A government TD was on the record as welcoming it. Secondly, as I noted above, additional EMUs would be required to handle the expanded service since the existing fleet can't be spread that thin, so clearly it would make sense to acquire outer suburban type ones with the 8100s/8500s being used on Howth, Maynooth and any service turning back at Malahide.

As for "being re-routed out of Connolly towards the Docklands", clearly a service which would be continuing to Pearse and St Stephen's Green as the interconnector envisaged per the linked article is not the same as the existing DMU arrangement into the surface station. With the interconnector probably unaffordable for a couple of decades clearly electrification would seek to max out the capacity of Connolly and DASH2 paths, while offering additional fleet flexibility where at present you couldn't send a spare DART set to Maynooth or throughpath one from Bray/Greystones to Maynooth.

Captain Chaos

dowlingm wrote: »

There are large fleet management issues here. The 22000 high density buy was a decision which should have had an alternative analysis not least because they didn't fit the 8 car diagrams needed into Dublin at peak. Since there aren't enough EMUs (even with a refit of the 8200s or even splicing the 2700s onto them somehow which would likely be more expensive than new build) and more than enough DMUs it becomes more than a discussion of capital expenditure, plus a Fairview type depot in Maynooth would likely be required.

For me the best approach would be to build Maynooth-Connolly and Malahide-Drogheda as two phases of the same project, with an "8700 class" purchase of higher speed 4-car EMUs initially operating Malahide-Bray. This would create a surplus of 8100/8500s which would be first given any necessary refurbs and then sent out to Maynooth. When catenary was completed to Drogheda a second delivery of "8700s" would fill the new slots. This then would cause a surplus of DMUs beyond those required for outer suburban and there are some options for what you could do but many involve cash like getting KRP2 done.

As it is now IE have a surplus of EMUs despite the 8200s being out of action since 2007. With 10 cars down they have a few 8100 sets stored out of service surplus to requirements. Sets 3,5,13 and 38 are in long term storage. So thats 18 cars down plus the 2 8100 sets lost in the Fairview fire in 2001. That's 22 EMU cars down and there is still more than enough for maintenance spares.

You could get 3 6 car formations there to run a shuttle service on the Maynooth line to Docklands or Connolly P7 no problem, and still have spares.

MGWR

dowlingm wrote: »

What on earth are you on about. A government TD was on the record as welcoming it. Secondly, as I noted above, additional EMUs would be required to handle the expanded service since the existing fleet can't be spread that thin, so clearly it would make sense to acquire outer suburban type ones with the 8100s/8500s being used on Howth, Maynooth and any service turning back at Malahide.

As for "being re-routed out of Connolly towards the Docklands", clearly a service which would be continuing to Pearse and St Stephen's Green as the interconnector envisaged per the linked article is not the same as the existing DMU arrangement into the surface station. With the interconnector probably unaffordable for a couple of decades clearly electrification would seek to max out the capacity of Connolly and DASH2 paths, while offering additional fleet flexibility where at present you couldn't send a spare DART set to Maynooth or throughpath one from Bray/Greystones to Maynooth.

All I saw out of the government TD quoted on that Sunday Tribune article was rhetoric; nothing solid. It does not add up to government policy, especially since the original Transport 21 was announced four years earlier and these pie-in-the-sky add-ons (remember, no funding, no build) were announced during the economic crisis, when everybody knew that things would start to be cut back. Brief flash in the pan.

Expansion of Dublin Bus capacity was supposed to be part of Transport 21. Instead, what happened later was "Network Direct" with the capacity shrunken. Dublin-Navan passenger rail was also part of Transport 21, and we all know what happened there as well. Dublin Metro was part of Transport 21...

I take the words of spokesmen and TDs with grains of salt. The words of politicians are crafted to get them jobs in Leinster House, and if incumbent, to keep those jobs.

WomanSkirtFan8

Grandeeod wrote: »

Are we afraid to say it? Michael Lowry TD gave us the Malahide and Greystones DART. Both unnecessary.

Greystones has been crying out for the DART since 1982. it was local people not politicians that helped get the DART to greystones. Michael Lowry only gave the green light to the project- A VERY NECESSARY thing let me tell you.

We had a very infrequent rail service out here before the DART arrived. All we had then were the occasional Rosslare and Arklow trains and the Greystones to Bray shuttle train which operated until November 1990 when it was withdrawn amid much local protest.

So, in terms of Greystones, the DART has been an extremely necessary rail link to have and long may it continue to be.:)

Victor

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

A VERY NECESSARY

No need to shout.

Please realise that you are replying to a thread from 2.5 years ago. A response was hardly necessary.

Moderator

Victor

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

So, in terms of Greystones, the DART has been an extremely necessary rail link to have and long may it continue to be.:)

While having a rail link to Greystones is necessary, it isn't without its problem, in particular the cost of maintaining the over lines through Bray Head.

Malahide provided its own problem, as there is frequent messing about with wrong-line running and/or trains operating on the 'wrong' platform.

Carawaystick

If the Maynooth line was to be electrified, surely the best place to start would be with the level crossing gates. Waiting for a lad to finish chinwagging before opening the gate to let road traffic carry on is for the birds in this day and age.

savagethegoat

waiting for the train to exit the section and release the inter-locking is more likely

Jamie2k9

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the Maynooth line was to be electrified, surely the best place to start would be with the level crossing gates. Waiting for a lad to finish chinwagging before opening the gate to let road traffic carry on is for the birds in this day and age.

Plan to close all crossings before electrification.

waiting for the train to exit the section and release the inter-locking is more likely

Possibly but axle counters directly after the crossings should allow quick clearance. Auto crossings open 30 seconds or so after crossings.

metrovick001

The electrification of Bray-Greystones was an absurd waste of tax payer money. Just an election stunt (the late Johnny Fox)
The cost of the OHLE & putting it up (not to mention replacing / maintaining it) would probably have paid for a dedicated two-piece railcar (several times over) which is all the town needed link it into the existing DART system.
As it stands, the frequency of the service is thirty minutes for a nine minute run - ideal for a shuttle with a cross platform change.

Ahh well, I look forward to te extension to Wicklow :-)

Grandeeod

metrovick001 wrote: »

The electrification of Bray-Greystones was an absurd waste of tax payer money. Just an election stunt (the late Johnny Fox)
The cost of the OHLE & putting it up (not to mention replacing / maintaining it) would probably have paid for a dedicated two-piece railcar (several times over) which is all the town needed link it into the existing DART system.
As it stands, the frequency of the service is thirty minutes for a nine minute run - ideal for a shuttle with a cross platform change.

Ahh well, I look forward to te extension to Wicklow :-)

At last. Some more common sense.

WomanSkirtFan8

Victor wrote: »

While having a rail link to Greystones is necessary, it isn't without its problem, in particular the cost of maintaining the over lines through Bray Head.

Malahide provided its own problem, as there is frequent messing about with wrong-line running and/or trains operating on the 'wrong' platform.

Yes that's absolutely right. Another problem in getting the DART to both Malahide and Greystones back in 2000 was verarious union disputes at the time.

Getting the Overhead Electrical Wires for the DART through the tunnels on Bray head to greystones was the biggest challenge that IE faced at the time. The railway line had to be lowered slightly in order for this to be done at the time.

nokia69

battery powered trains might be a good idea in some places

MGWR

nokia69 wrote: »

battery powered trains might be a good idea in some places

Been there and done that in Ireland.

metrovick001

What should we burn to generate steam to drive the turbine that turns the generator to produce a charge that supplies the transformer that charges the batteries that power the traction motors that move the train??

Markcheese

metrovick001 wrote: »

What should we burn to generate steam to drive the turbine that turns the generator to produce a charge that supplies the transformer that charges the batteries that power the traction motors that move the train??

Diesel probably - if it's an on board generator that shuts off for certain sections- kind of like a Prius -

Cookie_Monster

metrovick001 wrote: »

What should we burn to generate steam to drive the turbine that turns the generator to produce a charge that supplies the transformer that charges the batteries that power the traction motors that move the train??

in reality; turf or coal or gas.

but could be generated from hydro or PV or wind or even tidal if they ever get around to serious implementation.

Carawaystick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

tidal if they ever get around to serious implementation.

Ah yeah, let the moon dictate when your train can run...

Cookie_Monster

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah yeah, let the moon dictate when your train can run...

don't be an idiot. The fact is tidal is reliable and very fixed in terms of knowing and planning outputs, especially compared to wind. to solve your imagined timing problem you could alway use it to power pumped storage or batteries to release the energy when required rather than when produced.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

don't be an idiot.

Personal abuse not welcome.

Moderator

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ah yeah, let the moon dictate when your train can run...

As opposed to burning dead dinosaurs?

MGWR

cgcsb wrote: »

As opposed to burning dead dinosaurs?

At least that's on-demand power, with the highest BTU content. Whether one believes the abiogenic theory surrounding it or not.

dowlingm

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

We had a very infrequent rail service out here before the DART arrived. All we had then were the occasional Rosslare and Arklow trains and the Greystones to Bray shuttle train which operated until November 1990 when it was withdrawn amid much local protest.

If only it had been done properly - a new build double track electric-wired tunnel under Bray Head rather than string wire along the precarious (hazards above and below) single track around it.

MGWR

dowlingm wrote: »

If only it had been done properly - a new build double track electric-wired tunnel under Bray Head rather than string wire along the precarious (hazards above and below) single track around it.

The main line through Bray is single track just south of Convent Avenue, and a straighter main line could mean bulldozing parts of Raheen Park, never mind who knows what NIMBYs that use the golf course would say. Also, the rail bridges over Putland Road in Bray and Victoria Road in Greystones are single track, although the alignment through Greystones otherwise looks like it could accommodate two tracks.

Grandeeod

dowlingm wrote: »

If only it had been done properly - a new build double track electric-wired tunnel under Bray Head rather than string wire along the precarious (hazards above and below) single track around it.

Are you for real???

Carawaystick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

don't be an idiot. The fact is tidal is reliable and very fixed in terms of knowing and planning outputs, especially compared to wind. to solve your imagined timing problem you could alway use it to power pumped storage or batteries to release the energy when required rather than when produced.

Like we store the wind power? How's Spirit of Ireland getting on?

Cookie_Monster

Carawaystick wrote: »

Like we store the wind power? How's Spirit of Ireland getting on?

What do you think Turlough hill does? Or the new proposal to use ex salt mine up north for compressed air storage?
And just because it hasn't been done yet, doesn't mean it can't / won't (just like electrification!)

Carawaystick

Turlough Hill stores coal generated electricity, and only a small amount, and is used for smoothing the electricity demand.
There's only one other pumped storage station planned, and its only about 1/8 of the power of Turlough Hill.
An Taisce, Salafia and Sweetman will have a field day if any serious large scale pumped storage is planned.

DC power is a bad way to electrify, as energy can't be sent back into the wire during breaking, unlike ac.

n97 mini

Carawaystick wrote: »

Turlough Hill stores coal generated electricity, and only a small amount,

All the hydro stations on the Liffey supply TH.

goingnowhere

Carawaystick wrote: »

DC power is a bad way to electrify, as energy can't be sent back into the wire during breaking, unlike ac.

Yes it can, DART has done it for 31 years

Back to the national grid is possible with modern DC traction substations, we don't have them yet in Dublin