Towards a United Ireland

Bertie Woot

Just finished reading "Towards A United Ireland: An Uncompleted Journey" by Billy Leonard, a Protestant Irish Republican, who unlike the vast majority of contemporary Irish Republicans, comes from a British Unionist background in Northern Ireland, and was once a member of both the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Orange Order.

His conversion from Unionism to Irish Republicanism, becoming an SDLP member and then a Sinn Fein MLA in the Stormont assembly, is a road less travelled by Northern Unionists, and in his book he analyses the past, present and outlines his vision for for the future by forwarding the concept of "Vision Ireland", a hypothetical body composed of people of all party affiliation and none, and representing all shades of opinion on the political spectrum with one common goal; that of Irish reunification.

I must confess that I found it extremely unusual for someone of such background to join Sinn Fein and allow himself to rub shoulders with former PIRA combatants who had murdered many of his RUC comrades, but whilst in the SDLP it became obvious to Mr Leonard that the SDLP had effectively abandoned the aspiration of Irish reunification, and his dedication to that goal was strong enough to compel him to join Sinn Fein, the political representatives of the Provisional IRA.

It is my view however that Sinn Fein's Adams and McGuinness paramilitary past, with Adams still in denial about his and McGuinness having once stated that he was "proud to have been a member of the Provisional IRA", mean that they are not the right people to promote the concept of Irish reunification among the Ulster Unionist community, as despite 15 years after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement and (relative) peace in NI, most Unionists collective memory of the PIRA's campaign is still strong, and many still look upon Adams and McGuinness as the Irish Republican bogey-men.

The reality is, Billy Leonard's journey form Unionism to Irish Republicanism shall not be followed by most Ulster Unionists, and the goal of peaceful and democratic Irish reunification as provided for in the Good Friday Agreement shall require considerable time, patience, and a hell of a lot of creative thinking and tactical strategy on the part of Irish Republicans.

Sinn Fein's "green paper on Irish unity, where they argue that there is a "responsibility on the Irish government to bring forward a strategy to achieve national self determination, Irish re-unification, political independence, sovereignty and national reconciliation", and call upon the Irish Government to "publish a "Green Paper" and to begin the practical planning for Irish unity", is a practical step forward. Their desire to act as and encourage others to become "persuaders" to Unionists and convince them that a united Ireland is not only their destiny but in their own self interest is also useful. But how do you, the citizen of the Republic of Ireland, feel about Irish reunification, and what do you feel is the best and most practical way of achieving Irish unity in your lifetime?

Like Billy Leonard, I too come from the Unionist-Protestant community in Northern Ireland, lived through "the troubles", and after 15 years of (relative) peace in NI have come to view Irish reunification desirable if there were safeguards, assurances and guarantees embedded with a reunification agreement which would protect the Unionist people from retaliatory persecution in a 32 county Irish Republic. However, I know that 99.7% (a rough estimate) of Northern Unionists do not share my aspiration, and are just as opposed to a united Ireland today as they were forty years ago.

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests? Perhaps like many in the ROI, you too have become jaded, have given up hope, or are apathetic towards the goal of Irish reunification?

Your thoughts on Irish unity, ladies and not so lady-like persons, please.

Iwasfrozen

Bertie Woot wrote: »

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests? Perhaps like many in the ROI, you too have become jaded, have given up hope, or are apathetic towards the goal of Irish reunification?

To do that you must first be of the opinion that a united Ireland is beneficial. And I've seen no evidence that points at this.

GRMA

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.


As for Iwasfrozen you've been told many times about the impact partition has on the country, border counties in particular, is there much point in doing so again when all you will say is "No, No, No"? The last few threads on this have descended into you personifying a brick wall upon which others bang their heads... maybe we can avoid that this time and have a mutually beneficial discussion rather than an antagonistic "debate" which people seek to win.

Discussions are better than debates, there are no winners and everyone gets something out of it. Thats the problem with this forum, people seek to "win".

Bertie Woot

GRMA wrote: »

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.


As for Iwasfrozen you've been told many times about the impact partition has on the country, border counties in particular, is there much point in doing so again when all you will say is "No, No, No"? The last few threads on this have descended into you personifying a brick wall upon which others bang their heads... maybe we can avoid that this time and have a mutually beneficial discussion rather than an antagonistic "debate" which people seek to win.

Discussions are better than debates, there are no winners and everyone gets something out of it. Thats the problem with this forum, people seek to "win".

Truthful post. People are inherently competitive, and any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions.

And this runs to the crux of the matter: most Ulster Unionists do not want to discuss or even consider the concept of Irish reunification, and foolishly and naively believe that there will always be a country called "Northern Ireland" and that it shall always remain a constituent country of the United Kingdom.

Time to pull the head out of the sand, fellas. The British have won many battles in Ireland, but in the final analysis, it is Irish Republicanism which is ultimately going to win this very long war.

Chuck Stone

What's the point in trying to plámás Unionists? If the majority decides it then the gears of unification will begin to turn whether Unionists like it or not and the British will be only too happy to drop the hot potato so there'll be no point crying to them.

Chips Lovell

Still a long way off from being a live issue given the last poll suggested that only 17 per cent were in favour of leaving the UK.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Truthful post. People are inherently competitive, and any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions.

And this runs to the crux of the matter: most Ulster Unionists do not want to discuss or even consider the concept of Irish reunification, and foolishly and naively believe that there will always be a country called "Northern Ireland" and that it shall always remain a constituent country of the United Kingdom.

Time to pull the head out of the sand, fellas. The British have won many battles in Ireland, but in the final analysis, it is Irish Republicanism which is ultimately going to win this very long war.

Nothing like preaching to the converted is there, but sure what's the point of discussion, chucks post pretty much sums the quality of debate to be had, still it all the fault of the unionists isn't it

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

chucks post pretty much sums the quality of debate to be had, still it all the fault of the unionists isn't it

Do you have an opinion on the OP?

LordSutch

GRMA wrote: »

Good post OP.

There are more protestants than you think you are republican, half my family are protestants and would be very receptive to a united Ireland.

I know the Southern Protestant mindset very well (C of I), and I guess most down here would be of the opinion that protestants across the island are already united with a common cause in a common Church, so no barriers there to a United Ireland (as the island is already United in that aspect), with the Church of England, Scotland, Wales being seperate entities. Politics is another thing altogether, and I guess that if I asked a visiting Northern Protestant if he'd mind if the North actually left the UK (with all the consequences attached), then I'm 100% sure he would smile and say something like, May the good Lord shine upon you Southern folk, but No thank you )

Starting with the NHS . . . . . .

Dear Lord, they would be mad to give it all up for what exactly? a new identity?

junder

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Do you have an opinion on the OP?

Does it matter?

GRMA

LordSutch wrote: »

I know the Southern Protestant mindset very well (C of I), and I guess most down here would be of the opinion that protestants across the island are already united with a common cause in a common Church, so no barriers there to a United Ireland (as the island is already United in that aspect), with the Church of England, Scotland, Wales being seperate entities. Politics is another thing altogether, and I guess that if I asked a visiting Northern Protestant if he'd mind if the North actually left the UK (with all the consequences attached), then I'm 100% sure he would smile and say something like, May the good Lord shine upon you Southern folk, but No thank you )

Starting with the NHS . . . . . .

Dear Lord, they would be mad to give it all up for what exactly? a new identity?

That side of my family is from the north.

GRMA

junder wrote: »

Does it matter?

If you have no interest in the thread why post in it?

Bertie Woot

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What's the point in trying to plámás Unionists? If the majority decides it then the gears of unification will begin to turn whether Unionists like it or not and the British will be only too happy to drop the hot potato so there'll be no point crying to them.

If the majority of people (not necessarily Unionists) came out in favour of reunification in a referendum, IMO Unionists would cry foul and forcefully object and obstruct any move towards practical measures to reunification, and against the democratic will of the Northern Irish people.

What you have to understand is that a united ireland is the doomsday scenario for Ulster Unionism, and they shall do all in their power to prevent a united Ireland, and even if that means going against the grain of a democratic mandate.

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Still a long way off from being a live issue given the last poll suggested that only 17 per cent were in favour of leaving the UK.

I was very surprised by this:

As avowed believers in a united Ireland and the party running a border poll campaign, Sinn Fein might be surprised to learn that nearly a quarter of those who identified themselves as Sinn Fein voters - 23% - told the pollsters they would back the status quo in a border poll.

More than half of SDLP supporters - 56% - also said they would opt to stay in the UK if a poll was held tomorrow.

For almost one quarter of SF voters and more than half of SDLP voters stating that they would choose to vote for NI to remain part of the UK in a referendum shouts that Republicanism and Nationalism in the north has run out of steam, morale and lost its way.

This acceptance of partition among a significant percentage of the Republican/Nationalist minority is exactly what Unionism needs to lend credibility and indeed legitimacy to the sustainment of partition.

junder

GRMA wrote: »

If you have no interest in the thread why post in it?

Where the future of my country is concerned I am very interested, however there is very little interest in what opinion is, look as this thread, your first post was to have a go at Iwasfrozen, then the op blames unionists for lack of discussion and chuck comes in with it doesn't matter what unionist think in the event of a united ireland ever happening. Hardly conductive to open discussion

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

Where the future of my country is concerned I am very interested, however there is very little interest in what opinion is, look as this thread, your first post was to have a go at Iwasfrozen, then the op blames unionists for lack of discussion and chuck comes in with it doesn't matter what unionist think in the event of a united ireland ever happening. Hardly conductive to open discussion

If you are a Unionist and wish to discuss the OP, please do so and prove me wrong.

An Coilean

I would certainly support Unification, the border has never and will never make economic sense, it is to the detriment of both sides.

I would be very happy to see a movement for unity established that would allow people from all backgrounds who support unity to work twords that goal, it should not just be Sinn Féin.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

If you are a Unionist and wish to discuss the OP, please do so and prove me wrong.

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

getzls

I guess there is a lack of discussion about a United Ireland from Unionists, but there is a reason for that.

There is nothing to discuss.

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

You tell me why it's unionist fault since you are then one blaming us. And why shouldn't republicans respect me I am not, nor have i ever been a paramilitary, I have never murdered, I have never been to prison, I am not sectarian, racist, sexist or homophobic, I am just a human being who has an opposing lawful view point if that can't be respected, what can and since respect is the baseline for any meaningful dialogue, without it there is no point in trying

Fr Tod Umptious

Bertie Woot wrote: »

What do you mean by "it's all the Unionist fault"?

"Fault" for what?

And why should Irish Republicans respect you?

Well there was a thread here last year that blamed them for clerical sex abuse by members of the Catholic church in the Republic.
The theory read that if they had entered a united Ireland in 1922 then the Catholic church would not have had such influence in the south.

OCorcrainn

I of course do support a united Ireland that will respect all traditions and heritage. Being a member of Sinn Féin myself, a united Ireland that is not just based proclamation of 1916 but on the egalitarian and republican principles laid out by the Protestant, Dissenter and Catholic men of the United Irishmen. I do not see the PUL community as enemies but as brothers, and I hope someday that they will embrace it.

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

You tell me why it's unionist fault since you are then one blaming us. And why shouldn't republicans respect me I am not, nor have i ever been a paramilitary, I have never murdered, I have never been to prison, I am not sectarian, racist, sexist or homophobic, I am just a human being who has an opposing lawful view point if that can't be respected, what can and since respect is the baseline for any meaningful dialogue, without it there is no point in trying

You haven't answered the question, and instead have gone off on an irrelevant tangent. I'll ask you again; what is Unionist's "fault"? What have Unionists done wrong? Have they done anything wrong? Be specific.

No-one has accused you of being 'a paramilitary, a racist, a criminal, sexist, homophobic' et al., and why you have even brought these things up is puzzling to say the least.

Your Unionist viewpoint is just as valid as the Republican analysis, but why should Irish Republicans respect the British colonial Unionist identity?

Irish Republicanism, believe this or not, does in fact respect your British ethnic and cultural identity. I want you to tell me why you think that they don't. I also want you to place yourself in the shoes of Irish people and attempt to understand their experience of the British in Ireland. I would also like Irish Republicans to place themselves in the shoes of Unionists and try to understand their experience of the Irish in Ireland.

I want you to engage with Irish Republicans in meaningful discourse, not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Talk to them. Tell them your experience of Irish Republicanism from 1968 to 1998, and listen to their experience of Unionism in Northern Ireland.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I of course do support a united Ireland that will respect all traditions and heritage. Being a member of Sinn Féin myself, a united Ireland that is not just based proclamation of 1916 but on the egalitarian and republican principles laid out by the Protestant, Dissenter and Catholic men of the United Irishmen. I do not see the PUL community as enemies but as brothers, and I hope someday that they will embrace it.

A lot of Unionists are either ignorant or in denial of the fact that the most notorious Irish Republican that ever lived was descended from the colonial British and was a Protestant. Tone's ideas on separation from Britain, independence, and the creation of a 32 county sovereign Republic where Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can live as equals and in peace and harmony are not ones which Unionism should find threatening.

Zubeneschamali

Bertie Woot wrote: »

How would you convince the Unionists in Northern Ireland that finally putting an end to partition is safe and in their best interests?

I wouldn't. I'm quite happy to keep them out of Dáil Eireann, thanks very much.

junder

Bertie Woot wrote: »

You haven't answered the question, and instead have gone off on an irrelevant tangent. I'll ask you again; what is Unionist's "fault"? What have Unionists done wrong? Have they done anything wrong? Be specific.

No-one has accused you of being 'a paramilitary, a racist, a criminal, sexist, homophobic' et al., and why you have even brought these things up is puzzling to say the least.

Your Unionist viewpoint is just as valid as the Republican analysis, but why should Irish Republicans respect the British colonial Unionist identity?

Irish Republicanism, believe this or not, does in fact respect your British ethnic and cultural identity. I want you to tell me why you think that they don't. I also want you to place yourself in the shoes of Irish people and attempt to understand their experience of the British in Ireland. I would also like Irish Republicans to place themselves in the shoes of Unionists and try to understand their experience of the Irish in Ireland.

I want you to engage with Irish Republicans in meaningful discourse, not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Talk to them. Tell them your experience of Irish Republicanism from 1968 to 1998, and listen to their experience of Unionism in Northern Ireland.



A lot of Unionists are either ignorant or in denial of the fact that the most notorious Irish Republican that ever lived was descended from the colonial British and was a Protestant. Tone's ideas on separation from Britain, independence, and the creation of a 32 county sovereign Republic where Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can live as equals and in peace and harmony are not ones which Unionism should find threatening.

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist). Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends, as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army. As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

OCorcrainn

I do not agree with your opinion that the principles and ideology of the United Irishmen have been desecrated, something like that can never be desecrated.

maccored

junder wrote: »

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

I dont think Bertie Woot was blaming anyone - he/she managed to predict exactly what you were about to do - ie evade the core issue and attempt to derail the thread.

Sensor

junder wrote: »

"any time I've attempted "a discussion" on Irish reunification (in other fora) it has usually rapidly descended into a tribal slagging match, with most Unionists evading the core issues and attempting to derail the thread by dropping mass quantities of red herrings and attempting to disparage the effort at creating a platform for the exchange of political opinions."

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist). Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends, as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army. As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

I never thought of that. Would it really be an economic disadvantage for us to remain part of a bigger/ more powerful machine such as the UK?

What does Ireland have to offer us?

junder

maccored wrote: »

I dont think Bertie Woot was blaming anyone - he/she managed to predict exactly what you were about to do - ie evade the core issue and attempt to derail the thread.

And yet the first posts on the thread which where by republicans / nationalists was a dig at Iwasfrozen and post saying that basically it doesn't matter what unionists think in the event of a united ireland.

FREETV

Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, always was, it is even in the title, forget about what the passports say and what you have been brainwashed in to believing. The six counties were stolen from us under force and threat of war and death. Forget about Politics and religion, both a load of brainwashing controlling nonsense. You have a British system in place nothing else, counties didn't separate like mass continent movements during the Ice Age.

Let the Northern communities vote and decide what they want when they are good and ready. No more stupid fighting about sectarian differences because of religious beliefs and political or economic advantages just unite together first as equal human beings then make your minds up when you are good and ready about a United Ireland.

Peace and love to all communities, no more violence and insane unnecessary deaths because of the I said you said syndrome and indifferences. Evolve, change for the better, mature and waken up.

ManMade

Are there any polls on (southern) Irish people's opinion of a united ireland?

I'm not from near the border. I'm too young to know about the troubles. I'd vote no to a united ireland .All I hear about Northern Ireland in my life is trouble and riots. I like the status quo.

Chuck Stone

junder wrote: »

I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army.

Why do you care that they won't accept them as long as you get to do it?

junder wrote: »

saying that basically it doesn't matter what unionists think in the event of a united ireland.

In my opinion it's a waste of time trying to mollycoddle Unionists into accepting a UI. Imo the only people supporters of a UI should be trying to convince are non-PUL's to tip the balance and then, like every other incremental move, Unionists will just have to accept new realities whether they like it or not - a la Drumcree.

ManMade wrote: »

Are there any polls on (southern) Irish people's opinion of a united ireland?

Polls are a waste of time if they're a simple yes/no choice for a UI in a vacuum. If an well crafted road map to a UI was presented then maybe a poll would have some value.

FREETV

What's so great about being British or Irish for that matter?
What is the fundamental difference anyway and why kill and maim over very slight cultural differences and religion?

Bertie Woot

junder wrote: »

Your words, seems like your blaming us now considering myself and Gallag are the only regular unionist posters that's some feat, espically since boards is so well moderated (oh and GRMA, Iwasfrozen is not Actully a unionist).

Blaming you on what? I don't post here that often, have no clue who is Unionist or Republican, but recognise your attempt to obfuscate the issues and evade simple questions. If you can't address the topic and the questions I've posed to you, there is no point in rambling incomprehensibly.

Ironically since your are allegedly a unionist convert you could be an ambassador for your community, you could use your new found nationslist / republican viewpoint to explain why the unionist community feels the way it does to your new found friends

Another evasion technique. You are simply evading the questions because you do not have the ability to answer them.

as for dealing with republicans, I think you might find I have death with alot more then you have which is why I have the mindset I have now, I know that republicans with never accept those things I hold dear in thier united ireland, the loyal orders, the flute bands, the connections to the British army.

Inability to answer simple questions and express yourself articulately and coherently aside, you would also seem to have an erroneous take on Irish Republicanism. Mr Adams himself (who I'm no particular fan of) has expressed the sentiment that in a united Ireland Orange parades shall be permitted, and as part of Irish Republicanism's commitment to cultural diversity and tolerance for other ethnic traditions ...or words to that effect. Sinn Fein have even laid wreaths at the British war memorial in Belfast City Hall. McGuinness has shook hands with the Queen.

Do these acts not communicate tolerance and respect?

As for economics, well few years yet before you really start talking about that, the republic has a bail out to pay back yet, although its ironic that republicans use the argument about how senseless it is to have a border on a small island and then go on to support an independent Scotland.

They support Scotland's right to democratically choose independence, as indeed do Unionists. Irish Republicans are Nationalists and so are the Scottish "National" Party. The clue's in the name, hence their affiliation.

As for the united ireland men, I think the PIRA has long since desecrated that idology, although interestingly enough I am a descendent of Henry joy McCracken

The PIRA have been accused of abandoning the ideological purity of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen, and by actively targeting Protestants during their campaign.

Btw, you are not the only contemporary Unionist with Irish Republican ancestry.

COYW

An Coilean wrote: »

I would certainly support Unification, the border has never and will never make economic sense, it is to the detriment of both sides.

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I wouldn't. I'm quite happy to keep them out of Dáil Eireann, thanks very much.

I see what you mean. It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong unionist people.

Personally, I would be more than happy to have a border poll. The people of NI should have theirs first and if they say 'No', which they will as they have sense, the issue should be put to bed for another generation at least. I think that many people in this country thought that we released our claim on that part of the UK with the GFA. I have no doubt that we would do so, if the chance came about.

marienbad

How about running our own part of the island efficiently and fairly before wanting more ?

OCorcrainn

It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong people.

Sinn Féin TDs take the average industrial wage unlike the rest of them.

What politicians in the north would you deem respectable/morally strong?

FREETV

COYW wrote: »

Why does it not make sense? How would the removal of the border improve the economic outlook in this country? What does N.I. have to offer and vice-versa? No pro-UI person has ever answered this question. Do you agree that the people up north would lose their NHS entitlements, for example? A UI could never sustain such a service. Also, it would not be possible to raise the dole in NI to the same level as it is in this country. So, are you going bring the dole in this country down to the same level as NI? How is a UI any more attractive in terms of FDI than the ROI currently is?



I see what you mean. It would be a shame to pollute the amateur six figure salaried garbage that sit in our parliament with respectable, morally strong unionist people.

Personally, I would be more than happy to have a border poll. The people of NI should have theirs first and if they say 'No', which they will as they have sense, the issue should be put to bed for another generation at least. I think that many people in this country thought that we released our claim on that part of the UK with the GFA. I have no doubt that we would do so, if the chance came about.

Garbage who work for their own agendas and not the peoples. Selling to the highest bidder, brown paper bags and a swift handshake under the radar.
Time to throw out the garbage in Dail Eireann.

COYW

junder wrote: »

The Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge was invited by the Dublin city council to take part in the 2000 saint Patrick's day parade, the invitation had to be withdrawn because sun fein et all threatened counter demonstrations. The Dublin and Wicklow orange lodge has applied on several occasions since then to parade in their own city of Dublin, each time Sinn Fein et al has threatened counter demonstrations each time the Dublin and Wicklow has had to withdraw its application due to the fear of violence. These are Irish citizens applying to parade in not only their own capital city, but their own city full stop

Republicans don't sell republicanism because they have nothing to sell which respects or benefits unionism or any other culture to be honest.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Sinn Féin TDs take the average industrial wage unlike the rest of them.

What politicians in the north would you deem respectable/morally strong?

Nonsense, they cost the tax payer the exact same as every other politician. Where the money goes after that is irrelevant to the tax payer. Their salary base is the same as any other TD.

Chuck Stone

COYW wrote: »

respectable, morally strong unionist people

Who voted scourge of the north, inciter to hatred, phony doctorate aquiring
Ian Paisley in as their leader/representative?

Who gerrymandered and frustrated the minority and preferred living with a brutal conflict than give an inch?

You are having a laugh.




*You'll note these are rhetorical questions so don't require an answer.

Bertie Woot

Research has shown that the health benefits of laughter are far-ranging. While more studies need to be done, studies so far have shown that laughter can help relieve pain, bring greater happiness, and even increase immunity:

http://stress.about.com/od/stresshealth/a/laughter.htm

Both Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were acutely aware of the health benefits of laughter, and that's why they used to enjoy a good giggle together and were consequently branded "the chuckle brothers".

After 30 years of bitter conflict I used to love watching Ian and Martin have a good laugh.

Doublelime

Ireland is never going to be united because the uk will not give up their stolen land. They earn a lot of money from ni as Irish people shop there like fools.

gallag

Doublelime wrote: »

Ireland is never going to be united because the uk will not give up their stolen land. They earn a lot of money from ni as Irish people shop there like fools.

Check the British GDP, then get some estimates of the cross border surplus that N.I benefits from and also look at the deficit N.I runs annually, you will agree your statement makes you look silly.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

If you are really interested in a unionist opinion why the need to apportion blame in your second post on this thread. Why do I need to ' prove ' anything. As to why I want No part in a united ireland ironically it's your very post that answeres your question for me, the mere fact that you feel the need to 'blame unionists' shows exactly the lack of respect for my community that I have come to expect from republicans, at the heart of all united ireland discussions is the idea that its all the unionist fault, no matter what it is, it's our fault. Hardly sound ground for a respectful discussion.

Who would you blame for the current peace? Those Unionists who said no, no, no and had to be dragged and are still being dragged into a normalised democracy?
N.I. failed and had to be rescued by the Irish and British governments (the British too, having to be dragged by death and violence to the table)
It cannot now function without the intervention and supervision of both governments. One of those governments has signalled by international agreement that it no longer has a strategic interest and is only there so long as Unionists are in the majority. The question is, do you want to be positive and proactive or do you want more kicking and screaming.

FREETV

A UI is only a matter of time, within ten to fifteen years perhaps.

marienbad

FREETV wrote: »

A UI is only a matter of time, within ten to fifteen years perhaps.

Can't see it myself. Come back in 50 years possibly.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who would you blame for the current peace? Those Unionists who said no, no, no and had to be dragged and are still being dragged into a normalised democracy?
N.I. failed and had to be rescued by the Irish and British governments (the British too, having to be dragged by death and violence to the table)
It cannot now function without the intervention and supervision of both governments. One of those governments has signalled by international agreement that it no longer has a strategic interest and is only there so long as Unionists are in the majority. The question is, do you want to be positive and proactive or do you want more kicking and screaming.

Sure if that's the case

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

Sure if that's the case

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

The internet equivalent of whistling while Rome burns?

LordSutch

marienbad wrote: »

Can't see it myself. Come back in 50 years possibly.

By which stage the whole island might be different re the current context?

If the ROI rejoins the commonwealth then yes indeed that might ease the pain for Unionists to contemplate being run from Dublin instead of London!
But even then, the enormity of Dublin funding & policing a sometimes volitile Northern Ireland seems a bit more than a daunting prospect

Would they even consider dissolving Stormont in favour of the Dail ? ? ?

Would they be comfortable substituting God Save the Queen (with Amhrán na bhFiann)? What about the national flag too?

OK I hear you say, if its just about the bloody Anthem & the flag then we will change them, specially if its means that the Unionists
will turn their backs on the the rest of the UK (and join this State instead), but is that reality? I think not.

Will be interesting to see what happens with Scotland in 2014, and whether they leave the Union or not!

OCorcrainn

Happyman42 wrote: »

The internet equivalent of whistling while Rome burns?

I believe Nero was playing the lyre when Rome was burning, I don't think he was whistling.

Happyman42

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I believe Nero was playing the lyre when Rome was burning, I don't think he was whistling.

I should have written 'fluting'