Chin-ups and pull-ups advice

jimmurt

I started doing chin-ups and pull-ups 4 weeks ago at home. I do them every second day and usually vary the reps but usually end up doing 25-30 chins and 20 pulls.

Initially I could do one full pull-up and about 3-4 full chin-ups. I'm doing them slowly, extending the arms fully, chin over bar and back down again.

My PB on the chin-up/pull-up is now 11/6 which I'm happy enough with.

The thing is I'm beginnning to hit a wall (law of diminishing returns kind of thing). What can I do to push through it as I want to be able to do 20 chins/12 pulls in the next few months.

Should I do every day or maybe more intense sessions twice a week. The proble with the latter is that after the session described above my arms become dead and I cannot do anymore.

RidleyRider

Mix it up a little. Add weight, set a target for yourself like 50 chins and just go for it and that.

Will Heffernan

jimmurt wrote: »

I started doing chin-ups and pull-ups 4 weeks ago at home. I do them every second day and usually vary the reps but usually end up doing 25-30 chins and 20 pulls.

Initially I could do one full pull-up and about 3-4 full chin-ups. I'm doing them slowly, extending the arms fully, chin over bar and back down again.

My PB on the chin-up/pull-up is now 11/6 which I'm happy enough with.

The thing is I'm beginnning to hit a wall (law of diminishing returns kind of thing). What can I do to push through it as I want to be able to do 20 chins/12 pulls in the next few months.

Should I do every day or maybe more intense sessions twice a week. The proble with the latter is that after the session described above my arms become dead and I cannot do anymore.

1. Lose weight.
2. Grip strength and endurance work.
3. Scap stability work.

That will get you to 20 and 12 without changing anything you are currently doing...just add those 3 elements to it.

Done. Next question?

nice_guy80

improving chin ups and pull ups takes a lot of time (we had a big thread on it here a while back - no pun intended.... or was there??)

that's why most people don't do them - easier to sit at a cable pulldown machine

try negatives, adding weight to your pulls/chins
(I don't like pull ups - hard on the shoulders)

or if in the gym, everytime you walk past a chin up bar - rep out a few chins. that way over the course of a workout you'll get in 30-40 chins

Burkatron

Will Heffernan wrote: »

1. Lose weight.
2. Grip strength and endurance work.
3. Scap stability work.

That will get you to 20 and 12 without changing anything you are currently doing...just add those 3 elements to it.

Done. Next question?

Ugh, #1 is such a pain in the hole!!!

I've put on 10-12lbs of superhappybonus weight since Janury! All my lift numbers are up but my chins & pull up numbers are down!

Will Heffernan

Burkatron wrote: »

Ugh, #1 is such a pain in the hole!!!

A pain in your now heavier hole.

I've put on 10-12lbs of superhappybonus weight since Janury! All my lift numbers are up but my chins & pull up numbers are down!

If you want to get good advice I think you should take the advice of my good friend Christian Bale when my buddy Woody Harelson asked him how he got so ripped for the Machinist...eat very little and run as fast as possible. To get good at chin ups and pull ups...I would add those into the mix as well.

...oh and if you get sore shoulders doing pull ups...that's because you are not doing them properly. Chin ups will actually generally lead to more shoulder issues than pull ups for a variety of reasons.

So as per usual...with any advice here...take it at your own peril.

Now....quickly...everyone race off to google and try and prove me wrong....and or come back and agree with me once you are certain I am right

Oh and if you need some key words...search 'biceps brachii activation' maybe search 'trapezius recruitment' and think muscles responsible for internal rotation at the shoulder.

I only say this to save us 17 pages of people arguing with me before 70% posters switching sides and pretending that were really just joking the whole time....20% having to open new accounts and 10% just p*ssing and moaning and complaining about me being mean.

TheBellJar

Will Heffernan wrote: »

A pain in your now heavier hole.


If you want to get good advice I think you should take the advice of my good friend Christian Bale when my buddy Woody Harelson asked him how he got so ripped for the Machinist...eat very little and run as fast as possible. To get good at chin ups and pull ups...I would add those into the mix as well.

...oh and if you get sore shoulders doing pull ups...that's because you are not doing them properly. Chin ups will actually generally lead to more shoulder issues than pull ups for a variety of reasons.
.

As a matter of interest, most people I knew training in IP (myself inc.) got better at pull ups by doing more pull ups. i.e. band assisted - lots and lot of reps - in both strength days and conditioning blocks. Would you not recommend this to him? Surely losing weight to get more pull ups is like saying if you want a bodyweight squat just drop your bodyweight? (This makes sense in my head, not sure if it does here so apologies if it's confusing!)

Will Heffernan

TheBellJar wrote: »

As a matter of interest, most people I knew training in IP (myself inc.) got better at pull ups by doing more pull ups. i.e. band assisted - lots and lot of reps - in both strength days and conditioning blocks. Would you not recommend this to him? Surely losing weight to get more pull ups is like saying if you want a bodyweight squat just drop your bodyweight? (This makes sense in my head, not sure if it does here so apologies if it's confusing!)

I was trying to give the answers that real people wouldn't. I figured the OP would get....do lots of reps, do assisted reps, do negatives, do weighted, do more assistance work etc etc etc. I didn't think anyone would mention getting leaner....which obviously lessens the load. They wouldn't mention grip training...even though 87%* of people I have ever seen fail on pull up or chin up tests fail because of their grip giving way rather than for musculature or cv failure. I also didn't think anyone would mention doing scap and shoulder stability work even though most people that can't do a pull up/chin up that 'look' like they should be able to can't because they don't have the scapula control to apply the force necessary.

So yes, I agree doing band assisted reps and doing lots of reps works a treat.


* May or may not be an actual or real statistic.

nice_guy80

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I was trying to give the answers that real people wouldn't. I figured the OP would get....do lots of reps, do assisted reps, do negatives, do weighted, do more assistance work etc etc etc. I didn't think anyone would mention getting leaner....which obviously lessens the load. They wouldn't mention grip training...even though 87%* of people I have ever seen fail on pull up or chin up tests fail because of their grip giving way rather than for musculature or cv failure. I also didn't think anyone would mention doing scap and shoulder stability work even though most people that can't do a pull up/chin up that 'look' like they should be able to can't because they don't have the scapula control to apply the force necessary.

So yes, I agree doing band assisted reps and doing lots of reps works a treat.


* May or may not be an actual or real statistic.

what improves grip then?
define grip training

Will Heffernan

nice_guy80 wrote: »

what improves grip then?
define grip training

I suppose you can break it down 2 ways....1. Incidental grip training...as in all the work you just 'do' as in everything you do with your hands in training from db bicep curls and reverse grip barbell curls to deadlifts and pull ups etc etc. 2. Specific grip training...as in doing static or dynamic grip work. The static work are all the holds...a lot of weight for a short time or less weight for longer. The dynamic work...from traditional grip squeezes and 'crushers' to rolling grip work that I think I've posted about here previously. Personally, I think you need to work on all of these...especially considering how often lifters fail due to their grip whether that is doing deadlifts or pull ups. If you don't believe me...watch either max effort pull ups or deadliest on video and have a look at how many people look at their hands right after they fail...I always laugh because it's as if they have borrowed someone else's hands and they are displeased with their choice and their performance

jimmurt

Thanks for the tips.

In terms of training the core etc. I also do about 80 push-ups during a session.

One thing that went unanswered is the gap between sessions.

Is every second day a good interval or should it be increased or decreased?

Varicosity

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I also didn't think anyone would mention doing scap and shoulder stability work even though most people that can't do a pull up/chin up that 'look' like they should be able to can't because they don't have the scapula control to apply the force necessary.

On scapular stability, is there a measurement you use to determine when "enough is enough" or you've hit a point of diminishing returns with scap work? Or do you just keep it up in the dynamic warm up for all athletes regardless?

My impression would be that there's a certain level of scapular control and stability required to bash out 20 pullups or bench 1.5xBW and beyond that it won't have a huge affect on athletic performance. That being said it's good for the shoulder girdle and all in all feels quite nice so why stop it.

Will Heffernan

Great first post. Great observations. Great questions.

Varicosity wrote: »

On scapular stability, is there a measurement you use to determine when "enough is enough" or you've hit a point of diminishing returns with scap work? Or do you just keep it up in the dynamic warm up for all athletes regardless?

1. I don't have a 'specific' measure. It is one of those things you observe in athletes rather than measure. You can see complete lack of scap control when you watch someone do a push up...when I see it I will try to coach the athlete to see if it is a lack of knowledge or lack of technique. You can see scap control 'fading' as well if you know what I mean...you can observe people doing a push up test and some athletes will lose their scap control before they get muscular fatigue elsewhere...their lack of control stops them from being able to apply what strength/endurance they have left. So in answer to your question....yes, I do keep it in if for no other reason than it's a good 'warm up' even if it's not directly contributing to improvement in performance.

My impression would be that there's a certain level of scapular control and stability required to bash out 20 pullups or bench 1.5xBW and beyond that it won't have a huge affect on athletic performance. That being said it's good for the shoulder girdle and all in all feels quite nice so why stop it.

Agree with all of that.

Varicosity

Thanks for that.

If someone has established the proprioception to establish the correct scapular position during a movement, as well as the mobility required to complete the full range of motion, do the scapular exercises change? Are they loaded heavier/longer/with bananas/etc. or are pull-aparts and scap push-ups et al. enough to develop the 20 pullup/1.5xBW bench level of stability?

My thoughts would have been that it would have depended on the athlete to begin with but once they have established some baseline, say 15 inverted rows for arguments sake, that the training is all about building endurance from then on.

Will Heffernan

OK OK...who are you? You can't just turn up on boards and start making sense and knowing what you are talking about out of the blue. You are freaking me out. This isn't the place to be having interesting conversation about training principles and methodology is it? Maybe it is....lets continue.

Varicosity wrote: »

Thanks for that.

If someone has established the proprioception to establish the correct scapular position during a movement, as well as the mobility required to complete the full range of motion, do the scapular exercises change?

I have quite a large range of exercises now so I wouldn't say I change them at this stage because I are doing different variations and exercises in the same planes right from the get go.

Are they loaded heavier/longer/with bananas/etc. or are pull-aparts and scap push-ups et al. enough to develop the 20 pullup/1.5xBW bench level of stability?

You should definitely be looking to improve and through loading, intensity and duration in all your exercises but in the same way you do with bicep curls or leg extensions rather than deadlifts and benching...I don't know anyone that tests their 1RM leg curl or tricep extension. So its about 'loading' your mobility and stability work...within reason.

My thoughts would have been that it would have depended on the athlete to begin with but once they have established some baseline, say 15 inverted rows for arguments sake, that the training is all about building endurance from then on.

Yes, well you need to think about what you are looking for from your stabilising musculature. I am not going to say anymore in the hope that you might have a think about it and you or someone else might say something interesting and make my day.

Sangre

When doing inverted rows, my scap/scap control fatigues before the rest of me does (I assume that this is issue as I start to fail about an inch of the bar - I usually stop at this point). Is the best approach more full ROM IRs or should my focus be on more specific scap exercises/mobility (or all of the above?).

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

When doing inverted rows, my scap/scap control fatigues before the rest of me does (I assume that this is issue as I start to fail about an inch of the bar - I usually stop at this point). Is the best approach more full ROM IRs or should my focus be on more specific scap exercises/mobility (or all of the above?).

Boards is on a roll today.

1. Most people fatigue the same way that you do...i.e scap control first.
2. You aren't doing inverted rows unless your chest touches the bar...i.e getting full range of motion.
3. Have we had this discussion before on boards? The improving inverted rows discussion that is? If not...we probably should.

There is a video up on youtube of a fat guy with a cold crapping on endlessly about inverted rows.

Sangre

Thanks a lot Will, I'll have a look at the video at home.

I also believe I have asymmetrical scap control. Would this be a common issue? I think its something only a physio could advise me on to fix but just wondering if it affects many people.

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

Thanks a lot Will,

Don't thank me yet...it's only 7 mins long and I couldn't make it through the whole thing.

I'll have a look at the video at home.

Don't let anyone catch you.

I also believe I have asymmetrical scap control. Would this be a common issue?

Yes.

I think its something only a physio could advise me on to fix but just wondering if it affects many people.

I'm sure a physio could point you in the right direction but for the majority of individuals depending on the severity of the imbalance I doubt it'd be anything a mirror and some patience couldn't fix.

sweetthing

Informative video, thanks Will! I hate inverted rows...my problem is not usually lacking the strength to bring myself up to the bar, but when I do them with my feet on the floor, my feet keep slipping and I really struggle to get stability...Anyone else have this problem?

Will Heffernan

sweetthing wrote: »

Informative video, thanks Will! I hate inverted rows...my problem is not usually lacking the strength to bring myself up to the bar, but when I do them with my feet on the floor, my feet keep slipping and I really struggle to get stability...Anyone else have this problem?

Yes...but only when I do them in rollerblades.

BrianD3

Interesting thread, I have been obsessed with pullups for many years, avoided injuries and was pretty good at them (eg OAPU reps with added weight and two armers with 1.25x BW on a belt)

Have gone to sh*t in the last couple of months though, I have a weakness/tightness in my right shoiulder during pullups than is not going away. My left arm is as strong as it's ever been resulting in a big imbalance when doing two arm pullups

It doesn't seem to affect any pressing movements or any non lifting activities.

Will look into the scap stuff.

Will Heffernan

BrianD3 wrote: »

Interesting thread, I have been obsessed with pullups for many years, avoided injuries and was pretty good at them (eg OAPU reps with added weight and two armers with 1.25x BW on a belt)

Have gone to sh*t in the last couple of months though, I have a weakness/tightness in my right shoiulder during pullups than is not going away. My left arm is as strong as it's ever been resulting in a big imbalance when doing two arm pullups

It doesn't seem to affect any pressing movements or any non lifting activities.

Will look into the scap stuff.

I will all let you in on a secret....and even when I tell you it you probably won't get it...if you think about it....I mean REEEEALLY think about it and let it sink in you might just get an inkling of what I am getting at....are you ready?

Secret: Any time you do any exercise you are altering your body unnaturally and there are ramifications to that.

That's it...from people wrecking their backs, tearing their pecs to the other person saying chin ups and better for you shoulders than pull ups, to people saying high bar is better than low bar squatting...it's not just 'people' that don't get 'it' most coaches don't get 'it'. Most people here aren't doing a program...they are doing a collection of exercises. Most people and trainers don't have a CLUE what they are doing to their bodies and more importantly than that...they can not even comprehend what they are doing long term.

People will read this and they still won't get it...they still won't understand....and luckily for me I suppose because in my spare time I'll continue to get paid to clean up the mess.

Varicosity

Will Heffernan wrote: »

OK OK...who are you? You can't just turn up on boards and start making sense and knowing what you are talking about out of the blue.

I'm like a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a vest.

I have quite a large range of exercises now so I wouldn't say I change them at this stage because I are doing different variations and exercises in the same planes right from the get go.

I've read this four times and I'm coming up blank. I'll take from this you mean that the end result of the exercise is the same so while the exercise name may change you are still getting the same stimulus, analogous to switching barbell bench to dumbbell bench. Or not.

You should definitely be looking to improve and through loading, intensity and duration in all your exercises but in the same way you do with bicep curls or leg extensions rather than deadlifts and benching...I don't know anyone that tests their 1RM leg curl or tricep extension. So its about 'loading' your mobility and stability work...within reason.

I like the idea of 1RM band pull aparts. Practically though, does this mean moving to a thicker band or using longer sets or a nice mish mash of both?

Yes, well you need to think about what you are looking for from your stabilising musculature. I am not going to say anymore in the hope that you might have a think about it and you or someone else might say something interesting and make my day.

Stabilisation is what I look for. I'm not experienced enough with heavy, heavy lifting to know if the strain on the stabilisers changes significantly as the weight increases. Anecdotally I've found that once I was able to retract my scapulae sufficiently that it didn't feel any different as the weight went up. I take that with a pinch of salt though. In summary I reckon that once you've gotten to a certain point with scapular stability, both in absolute and endurance terms, that it won't be the cause of your missed bench press for a long time.

Varicosity

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Secret: Any time you do any exercise you are altering your body unnaturally and there are ramifications to that.

Any time you do anything you are altering your body unnaturally and there are ramifications to that.

I imagine you're getting at that a decent program will make the 'ramifications' as positive as possible and will be designed as such, for whatever the goal 'ramifications' are.

nice_guy80

love inverted rows
3 or 4 sets of 9/10 is the only way to go

Theresalwaysone

Varicosity wrote: »

Any time you do anything you are altering your body unnaturally and there are ramifications to that.

I imagine you're getting at that a decent program will make the 'ramifications' as positive as possible and will be designed as such, for whatever the goal 'ramifications' are.

This is a very interesting thread. Good posts boyos!

I think what Will is saying is that, while a person might hear buzzwords like 'compound lifts' or 'intensity' etc and will put together their own program, which, for all intents and purposes will be just a set of exercises. They will still adapt to these exercises but given its not programmed they could be hindering their own advances because of any number of variables.

For example, maybe following a bench press with shoulder press and then dips could place too much stress on the shoulder joint and result in pinching in the attachment or cuff issues but the actual idea of Bench/Shoulders/Dips follows the perceived logic of doing compound movements to intensity.

A coach, or at least a good coach, will put together a list of exercises where the actual adaptations are positively compounded by the rep scheme, the time under tension, the exercise order, the actual exercises or the % of maxes etc.

I hope that ramble makes sense.