Mauro Bergamaso's tackle on Brian O'Driscoll (without the ball)

mystic86

budhabob

mystic86 wrote: »

Jesus, Missed the match. Was there any cards shown during the game for it?

Sure he didn't mean it, he thought O'Driscoll would disappear and be fine, there was no malice in it. Obviously.

opinionatedfan

budhabob wrote: »

Jesus, Missed the match. Was there any cards shown during the game for it?

no card for that

Podge_irl

Its not a spear tackle in my view, though its a definite card considering BOD didn't have the ball.

jamiedav2011

Don't think the tackle was too bad, fact it was off the ball made it a lot worse.

Rightwing

Doesn't seem worthy of a thread to me. More of an awkard tackle than anything else.

jamiedav2011

Rightwing wrote: »

Doesn't seem worthy of a thread to me. More of an awkard tackle than anything else.

Completely off the ball.

Rightwing

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Completely off the ball.

Stupid and unnecessary, and I don't blame BOD for being angry, but it isn't really a spear tackle.

justsomebloke

meh the only real thing about this is that it was off the ball.


can't see the video here but viewing at the time I didn't think he went past parrell

Tomtom364

Not a spear at all.

Teferi

It's great that the Pro12 isn't shying from these events and are putting them up on youtube.

FellasFellas

Say BOD was literally having nightmares about NZ 05 when he got lifted.

Tox56

Looking at it there it's no spear but I just don't understand how neither the ref or TJ picked it up, fairly blatant

justsomebloke

have removed spear from thread title

lologram

Did he get away with it because he's a legend and there was no intent?

[Jackass]

That would be a yellow if O'Driscoll had the ball...he doesn't control the fall and actually drives BOD into the ground. The fact that BOD didn't go down head or shoulder first is a lot more to do with luck than any tackle technique.

decisions

Had Drico had the ball it would have been on the line between a great tackle and a dangerous one, but it could not have been anymore off the ball. Yellow for me.

You know that all Drico could think about was "that" spear when he was in the air.

danthefan

Meh. BOD landed on his back. The issue imo is that it was off the ball and as such should have had a penalty and probably a yellow. Not worth a citing. Can understand why BOD was so annoyed though, you're kind of defenceless when not expecting to be tackled.

If a Leinster player put in that hit (on a guy with the ball obviously) I'd be delighted.

Tomtom364

[Jackass] wrote: »

That would be a yellow if O'Driscoll had the ball...he doesn't control the fall and actually drives BOD into the ground. The fact that BOD didn't go down head or shoulder first is a lot more to do with luck than any tackle technique.

It would be a perfectly legal and great tackle if BOD had the ball.

Teferi

Can understand BOD's annoyance but it is possible that Bergamasco is already fairly committed to the tackle watching BOD's line.

.ak

Tackle was fine, but was off the ball and defo deserved a yellow.

ButtersSuki

Yellow if on the ball, red as it's off.

the baby bull elephant

It will be cited simply because of the clamp down on tip tackles. It's not particulary bad except for it being off the ball but more innocent tackles/clearouts have been cited.

Anynama141

lologram wrote: »

Did he get away with it because he's a legend and there was no intent?

trouttrout

lologram wrote: »

Did he get away with it because he's a legend and there was no intent?

ffs, is this incident going to come up everytime there's a discussion about illegal play. Tiresome already

irishbucsfan

Tackle is absolutely fine. Don't see why it would be a card unless it was deemed it was a professional foul, I think it was just a coming together that Bergamasco made the most of. Don't think he was trying to prevent a scoring opportunity and it wasn't dangerous. Far safer than an uncontrolled collision.

lologram

trouttrout wrote: »

ffs, is this incident going to come up everytime there's a discussion about illegal play. Tiresome already

I'm going to go right ahead and acknowledge the existence of that incident when another incident of foul play crops up one week later, yeah. I'm sorry if you think the, for want of a better phrase, "statute of limitations" for mentioning it is 7 days or shorter.

Also, it was tongue in cheek.

tolosenc

Tip tackle, no.
Spear tackle, yes.

He didn't put him through the horizontal, but he did drive him into the ground. Yellow if BOD has the ball, red as it's off the ball.

trouttrout wrote: »

ffs, is this incident going to come up everytime there's a discussion about illegal play.

Probably. It's about the most blatant example of cronyism/incompetence that we'll ever see in the disciplinary system.

I also believe it's "ligind" and not "legend". Thomond will have to confirm, as he may have trademarked "ligind" for descriptions of the Bull.

Buer

No way at all a dangerous tackle. At no point do the hips go above the shoulders. There's nothing wrong with driving a player into the ground if it's done in a controlled manner and not at a dangerous angle. It should have been a penalty for taking a man out off the ball but nothing more.

neilmulvey

yellow card minimum. Off the ball and dangerous and IMO BOD was driven to the ground.

Anynama141

Buer wrote: »

No way at all a dangerous tackle. At no point do the hips go above the shoulders. There's nothing wrong with driving a player into the ground if it's done in a controlled manner and not at a dangerous angle. It should have been a penalty for taking a man out off the ball but nothing more.

Um...but those rules apply to tackles, right? And by definition, you need to have the ball to be tackled.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

No way at all a dangerous tackle. At no point do the hips go above the shoulders. There's nothing wrong with driving a player into the ground if it's done in a controlled manner and not at a dangerous angle. It should have been a penalty for taking a man out off the ball but nothing more.

Spot on. Dunno where some people are getting that. Nothing wrong with an aggressive tackle so long as it's safe.

irishbucsfan

Anynama141 wrote: »

Um...but those rules apply to tackles, right? And by definition, you need to have the ball to be tackled.

Yes, so its a penalty.

Shelflife

There's a lot of off the ball tackles in rugby at the moment. It's almost acceptable to claim that I thought he was going to get the ball ref as if that excuses it.
It means that supporting players are being taken out of the game and players are commiting to tackles secure in the knowledge that they can get away with a free hit.
If there was a few YC dished out for this practise it would sort it out soon enough.

Bizarrely if you gently tug a supporting players shirt you are guaranteed a YC , but floor him with a bone crunching tackle because you're committed and its grand .

Buer

Anynama141 wrote: »

Um...but those rules apply to tackles, right? And by definition, you need to have the ball to be tackled.

Yes, so it's taking a man out off the ball as I said. Nothing more.

irishbucsfan

Shelflife wrote: »

There's a lot of off the ball tackles in rugby at the moment. It's almost acceptable to claim that I thought he was going to get the ball ref as if that excuses it.
It means that supporting players are being taken out of the game and players are commiting to tackles secure in the knowledge that they can get away with a free hit.
If there was a few YC dished out for this practise it would sort it out soon enough.

Bizarrely if you gently tug a supporting players shirt you are guaranteed a YC , but floor him with a bone crunching tackle because you're committed and its grand .

You realise why this is right? Why, in terms of gamesmanship, pulling back a player from behind is completely different to what Bergamasco did?

The Aussie

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Spot on. Dunno where some people are getting that. Nothing wrong with an aggressive tackle so long as it's safe.

+1, I think because its O'Driscoll, if it was on somebody like Dan Parks from Connacht would it have deserved its own thread?

Anynama141

Buer wrote: »

Yes, so it's taking a man out off the ball as I said. Nothing more.

But does 'taking a man out off the ball' run the gamut from slightly checking his run to picking him up and smashing him into the ground, and perhaps carry on as far as outright decapitation?

(too lazy to look up the relevant laws...:o)

Stev_o

Honestly I bet he hadn't a clue whether BOD had the ball or not. Defences are trained to hit whoever comes into their space. All things considering could of been worse if he had of figured out BOD didnt have the ball half way through a just dropped him.

errlloyd

Tbh lads, it would have been worse if Mauro had tried to back out and hit him without wrapping (cough Downey cough).

It did look bad, I'd say if the ref saw it real time he'd be gone.

CoDy1

Should have been a penalty for a tackle off the ball, nothing more, move on.

ButtersSuki

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the onus on/don't the laws of the require the tackling player to return the tackled player safely to the ground when the tackled player has been lifted into the air?

This one for me is (as I posted earlier) a yellow if he had the ball but red as he (MB) did not return the tackled player safely to the ground. That the tackled player wasn't seriously injured here is more luck than anything else.

And I'd say the same were it Drico had done this to Bergamasco.

Buer

ButtersSuki wrote: »

This one for me is (as I posted earlier) a yellow if he had the ball but red as he (MB) did not return the tackled player safely to the ground. That the tackled player wasn't seriously injured here is more luck than anything else.

He grounded him perfectly. Text book. Never lifted him beyond horizontal (hips above shoulders) and kept a hold of him throughout. He wasn't injured because MB showed perfect technique and brought him to ground.

irishbucsfan

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the onus on/don't the laws of the require the tackling player to return the tackled player safely to the ground when the tackled player has been lifted into the air?

This one for me is (as I posted earlier) a yellow if he had the ball but red as he (MB) did not return the tackled player safely to the ground. That the tackled player wasn't seriously injured here is more luck than anything else.

And I'd say the same were it Drico had done this to Bergamasco.

Nonsense really. There was nothing dangerous in what Berga did. Hence it's not illegal (not including being off the ball).



People who don't or haven't played the game need to realise that a dump tackle is not something that the tackler creates on their own. It can be just the natural result of a direct collision into a player with good technique, the tackled player naturally comes up into the air because there's no other direction for them to go. That's why they're allowed.

At that point you ABSOLUTELY drive them back down into the ground. Why? Because its the only safe way to complete the tackle. The tackled player tips naturally and you have to drive his hips down to ensure that his shoulders or neck don't come down first. Especially in a situation where you've just been fooled by a dummy and are likely to have been caught a little off guard by the situation.

The way Bergamasco completed the tackle was definitely safe and it was by the book. Nothing in the tackle itself was illegal. I can understand why some people might think it looked malicious, but its just a textbook dump tackle, which is legal.

EDIT: Actually I think the term dump tackle is no longer used because it implies releasing the player in the air, which is a red card offense. Not sure what its supposed to be called these days, Ive always called it that.

tolosenc

Called a tip tackle these days.

Freezing it at 0:16, BOD's hips are above his midriff. BOD lands on his shoulders, and at that he was fighting to right himself. Definite tip tackle.

irishbucsfan

tolosenc wrote: »

Called a tip tackle these days.

Freezing it at 0:16, BOD's hips are above his midriff. BOD lands on his shoulders, and at that he was fighting to right himself. Definite tip tackle.

No a tip tackle is the term for an illegal tackle past the horizontal. That wasn't a tip tackle.

Shelflife

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You realise why this is right? Why, in terms of gamesmanship, pulling back a player from behind is completely different to what Bergamasco did?

Its still tackling a player without the ball and should be penalised.

irishbucsfan

Shelflife wrote: »

Its still tackling a player without the ball and should be penalised.

What should Bergamasco have done in your opinion? Just allow BOD to run straight into him?

If he did do you think BOD should have been penalised?

Shelflife

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What should Bergamasco have done in your opinion? Just allow BOD to run straight into him?

If he did do you think BOD should have been penalised?

In the clip BOD is slowing down after holding Bergamasco with his run, so he should have pulled out of the tackle. In the same way the decoy runner should curtail his run so that there is no contact that causes interference.

I understand where your coming from re the sly pull back and the committed tackler, but essentially its the same thing -tackling a player without the ball.

If the tackler had to wait until he was sure that the player had the ball then it would delay his tackle slightly and would give the ball carrier a better chance to break the tackle. we shouldnt reward/encourage foul play.

[Jackass]

Tomtom364 wrote: »

It would be a perfectly legal and great tackle if BOD had the ball.

Nope.

ON THE BALL, it is a red card if: (as a definition of a spear tackle)

Player comes to a complete stop in tackle from forward motion
tackler grabs the opponent low (waste or lower)
lifts them both feet off the ground
twists them in the air (i.e moves them from a vertical upright position)
drives or drops them so that they land on their back, head or neck.

All of these were present in the off the ball tackle. If anything, I was being lenient by saying it would be a yellow card offence if BOD had the ball. May be straight red either way.

(taken from rugby refs - site for rugby refereeing referencing - and the IRB memo giving the description as above http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php/Tip_Tackles & http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php/2011_Memo_on_Dangerous_Tackles)