Received Fixed Penalty Notice - Address of offence wrong - Pay or no?

JCDUB

Before I start, I do not wish to hear from moral crusaders telling me to just pay the fine and get on with it. Let the gardaí do their own job.

I receive a fixed penalty charge notice for a driving offence but the address where the offence took place is incorrect. It is significantly off the mark, as in not even the correct postcode.

My question is, does this notice have any legal standing if I take it to court? Can I say I know nothing about an offence at that address and have it thrown out of court?

Or should I contact the garda processing office before that and try to have them strike it off now?

It was traffic corps, so I don't think I have a way of contacting the garda to ask him to quash it.

corktina

the court would simply correct the address and proceed. If you did it, you did it.

kravmaga

JCDUB wrote: »

Before I start, I do not wish to hear from moral crusaders telling me to just pay the fine and get on with it. Let the gardaí do their own job.

I receive a fixed penalty charge notice for a driving offence but the address where the offence took place is incorrect. It is significantly off the mark, as in not even the correct postcode.

My question is, does this notice have any legal standing if I take it to court? Can I say I know nothing about an offence at that address and have it thrown out of court?

Or should I contact the garda processing office before that and try to have them strike it off now?

It was traffic corps, so I don't think I have a way of contacting the garda to ask him to quash it.

Okay here is what you can do, you either contact the Garda directly in Traffic division in Dublin castle.

Or you can appeal it to his Inspector.

Or you can take the risk and go to court and your defence case will be that the location of the alleged motor traffic offence was incorrect.

It depends on what judge you get at the district court. 50/50 imo

Best of luck with it either way.

JCDUB

That's what I thought. I've spoken to a garda and a barrister on this one and they've both said it depends on the judge.

The garda did say to me that I shouldn't contact the garda who issued though, as he'll just change address and proceed.

He said say nothing until case is under way and then bring it up, but that the judge may get p'd off with this and throw the book at me.

In fairness the garda was a detective so wouldn't be up to speed with traffic offences, and the barrister doesn't deal with these types of cases. Still undecided, think I'll just pay it and be done though...

mitosis

If the address is so far off, how did it get to you? Go to court, make your case. They'll change the address for you on the spot.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

the court would simply correct the address and proceed. If you did it, you did it.

Thats fine for a technicality like having the name wrong, but if the notice says that the offense was committed in a certain area, and the OP can prove that they were not in that area at the time, then how can the case proceed? Id see it as a little more than a technicality tbh.

JCDUB

djimi wrote: »

Thats fine for a technicality like having the name wrong, but if the notice says that the offense was committed in a certain area, and the OP can prove that they were not in that area at the time, then how can the case proceed? Id see it as a little more than a technicality tbh.

This is what I thought. However if I admit that that the offence occurred, just not at the named address on the notice, do I leave myself open to prosecution?

Or do I just have to say I don't know what the garda is talking about, that I wasn't there etc?

JCDUB

mitosis wrote: »

If the address is so far off, how did it get to you? Go to court, make your case. They'll change the address for you on the spot.

Please read my post properly.

djimi

JCDUB wrote: »

This is what I thought. However if I admit that that the offence occurred, just not at the named address on the notice, do I leave myself open to prosecution?

Or do I just have to say I don't know what the garda is talking about, that I wasn't there etc?

If you admit to it then they probably would change it. If you play dumb then I dont see how they could prove that you did actually commit an offence, just not at the time and place they said you did.

dharn

JCDUB wrote: »

This is what I thought. However if I admit that that the offence occurred, just not at the named address on the notice, do I leave myself open to prosecution?

Or do I just have to say I don't know what the garda is talking about, that I wasn't there etc?

Traffic core may have video of your car with date and time ,so if you say you know nothing of it and were not there and garda says your car is on video then you are fecked

keithclancy

Not another one .......

mitosis

JCDUB wrote: »

Please read my post properly.

Gotcha

Ronnie Beck

corktina wrote: »

the court would simply correct the address and proceed. If you did it, you did it.

The court would need to know where it happened first.

the culture of deference

The address and location where the offence took place is the most important. If those details are incorrect then they cannot proceed.

Contact the superintendent of the area where the offence occured, explain the situation and he will cancel it.

The judge cannot amend the location.

Yes some people are correct saying the judge can amend addresses for post and spellings but not this.

Soarer

Did they stop you at the time?

If they did and you know you've committed the offence, I can't see how the wrong address will get you off.
What are you going to say?
You: "I couldn't have been speeding there, as I was speeding over here!"
Judge: "Did you get notice of that offence?"
You: "No."
Judge: "Well this is it so!"

EDIT: The post above mine probably makes more sense, so ignore what I've posted!

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

JCDUB

the culture of deference wrote: »

Contact the superintendent of the area where the offence occured, explain the situation and he will cancel it.
.

But if I do this can (s)he not just contact the garda in question and get them to reissue notice with correct address?

I don't want to pish off the judge on the day by saying that I committed the offence, but that the location is incorrect, so here's two fingers and good luck.

Tricky one this, hmmmm.

JCDUB

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is what I was thinking. So if I do this is there no way a judge can just tell me not to be acting the maggot and hit me with a bigger fine and four penalty points?

Also, if I do this, do I need a solicitor or will me representing myself REALLY ryle up the judge and fook me altogether?!

Vikings

There's another aspect to this not yet mentioned.

I'm going to assume this incident happened in Dublin, if you do not pay the ticket you will probably get a summons for a court date about 7-8 months from now.

If the garda that stopped you recorded in his notebook that he stopped you on say O'Connell Street and then gave you a ticket for an offence on O'Connell Street, when it goes to court in 8 months time the evidence he will give is that he stopped you on ...O'Connell Street. And the likelihood then is a conviction.

You are holding out hope that the garda stopped you on say Parnell Street and recorded Parnell Street in his notebook but then put the offence location as O'Connell Street on the ticket.

If/when this goes to court the garda will most likely have forgotten all about you and the offence and be relying on the notes he made in his notebook. If his evidence in court gives the same location that is on your ticket you will be very lucky to get away with it.

JCDUB

Vikings wrote: »

There's another aspect to this not yet mentioned.

I'm going to assume this incident happened in Dublin, if you do not pay the ticket you will probably get a summons for a court date about 7-8 months from now.

If the garda that stopped you recorded in his notebook that he stopped you on say O'Connell Street and then gave you a ticket for an offence on O'Connell Street, when it goes to court in 8 months time the evidence he will give is that he stopped you on ...O'Connell Street. And the likelihood then is a conviction.

You are holding out hope that the garda stopped you on say Parnell Street and recorded Parnell Street in his notebook but then put the offence location as O'Connell Street on the ticket.

If/when this goes to court the garda will most likely have forgotten all about you and the offence and be relying on the notes he made in his notebook. If his evidence in court gives the same location that is on your ticket you will be very lucky to get away with it.

Hmmm, good point. TBH I don't believe he knew where the location was. He was traffic corps out of Dublin Castle. The (alleged:)) offence happened on the Northside of the city and I'm not sure he's all that familiar with locations there, as it is significantly wrong. Then again I could be clutching at straws..

flutered

back in the day i had a somewhat similar summons, not for driving tho, the judge threw it out, repremainding the gard for wasting both court and my time, asking why he could not get this so wrong.

djimi

Soarer wrote: »

Did they stop you at the time?

If they did and you know you've committed the offence, I can't see how the wrong address will get you off.
What are you going to say?
You: "I couldn't have been speeding there, as I was speeding over here!"
Judge: "Did you get notice of that offence?"
You: "No."
Judge: "Well this is it so!"

EDIT: The post above mine probably makes more sense, so ignore what I've posted!

Yeah I dont think it works like that! More like

"It says here you were caught speeding at place A at such and such a time"

"Well at such and such a time I was actually at place B; here is my proof that I couldnt have been at place A".

What are they going to say then? You may well have been committing an offense elsewhere, but they have no proof of that. The important thing was that you were not committing an offense at the time and place in which they claim you were.

the culture of deference

JCDUB wrote: »

But if I do this can (s)he not just contact the garda in question and get them to reissue notice with correct address?

I don't want to pish off the judge on the day by saying that I committed the offence, but that the location is incorrect, so here's two fingers and good luck.

Tricky one this, hmmmm.

No, they cannot change the location of the offence.


Cancelled Notices

Drivers sometimes write to the Garda Fixed Penalty Office in response to receipt of a Fixed Charge
Notice, for example to offer reasons why he/she was speeding on the occasion, or to explain the reason
for the delay in paying the monetary penalty. The decision as to whether to proceed with the process of
applying penalty points to the driver’s record is apparently a matter for the Garda management at the
Fixed Penalty Office.

The examination of the computer records show over 2,600 cancellations in the period examined. Of
these, 1,500 are classified as “Error on ticket”. A further 780 were classified “Details Unavailable”.
I asked the Accounting Officer for information regarding the cancellation policy employed by the Gardaí
in respect of fixed charge notices and, in respect of the cancellations on the Garda file, why there appears
to be a relatively high rate of error on tickets.

I also sought his observations in relation to the cancellations for which no apparent details were available.
The Accounting Officer informed me that notices could only be cancelled at the discretion of the District
Officer and generally cancellations only result from errors by the issuing Garda such as

• Incorrect particulars on notice
• Incomplete notices
• Defectively issued notices, e.g. where the National Vehicle File has not been updated
• Legal exemptions both with regard to speeding and the non-wearing of seat belts
• Poor picture on screen resulting in wrong owner getting notice
• Incorrect information on National Vehicle File
• Incorrect reading by Garda members viewing film/video and incorrect data entry.

The reference to “errors on ticket” refers to mismatch on National Vehicle File or human error on
intercept Fixed Charge Notices and is an IT recognition code to flag that the notice should be cancelled
on the interim IT system. The references to ‘details unavailable’ relate to older manually processed cases
where the details of the cancellations are recorded in summary form only; and, other instances where the
request for cancellation is made and acceded to before the details are processed by the Garda Fixed
Penalty Office. An examination of the number of cancellations shows that the number has reduced
substantially to a total of 771 in the first six months of 2004.

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/annualreports/2003/Chapter7.pdf

Tigger

i'd not go to court for 85 quid i'll tell you that

get a judge that had a bad weekend and see what might happen

JCDUB

Thanks the culture of deference, that is gold!!

All I need to do now is work out who to contact. You said earlier superintendent in my area? Is that the way to go yeah?

Should I not be contacting the fixed penalty issue office or the traffic corps no?

Thank you :cool:

"Pay the fine or no? I don't want to hear 'pay it'"

Good OP there

JCDUB

bluewolf wrote: »

"Pay the fine or no? I don't want to hear 'pay it'"

Good OP there

Thanks for your contribution, so very helpful.

Cash is king

JCDUB wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution, so very helpful.

Aye the ole high horses are out in force..:rolleyes:

I had a similar quandryca few years ago only the address only had the wrong townland on it. I told the judge I was guilty of the offence but wrong address and he threw it out but I was very nice about it and not smarmy. .

Best of luck!!!

the culture of deference

JCDUB wrote: »

Thanks the culture of deference, that is gold!!

All I need to do now is work out who to contact. You said earlier superintendent in my area? Is that the way to go yeah?

Should I not be contacting the fixed penalty issue office or the traffic corps no?

Thank you :cool:

That is a 2003/04 report so there may be a more up to date report somewhere.

You have to ring the FPO to clarify the location area noted on the FPN, then contact the local garda station to that area who may then give you other numbers of garda stations because they may not be sure. When you get the correct station contact them, ask for the super and he may want you to post in the FPN to him/her, he will check the details and get back to you in a week (ish) and if the location named is incorrect then he will void it and that will be the end of it.

scwazrh

I would rather pay €85 than waste 3 to 4 hrs sitting in a courtroom but if you don't mind going to court then chance your arm.
When the judge calls you and the offence is read out you will be asked to answer it.Dont be smart with your answer and just say you where stopped on that day but not where the ticket states.He may ask you where did you get stopped and and if you where speeding.Tell him the actual location and say you don't think you where speeding but that the Garda was adamant so you didn't argue with him.Then it's up to the judge .you probably will get away with it but he may ask you to make a charitable donation which would avoid points but still cost you money.If you've a bit of history for traffic offences I would just pay the fine

Wheelnut

How does the OP know the location is wrong? In my experience it doesn't happen that easily. Very often administrative (townland/parish etc) boundaries are not where people think they are. Maybe JCDub works somewhere like the council or the Land Registry or the Ordnance Survey office where he has access to very good maps and the knowledge to use them, otherwise be very careful.

JCDUB

scwazrh wrote: »

.If you've a bit of history for traffic offences I would just pay the fine

None whatsoever, which is why I'd rather keep my licence clean. It's not really about the money, more the penalty points.

Wheelnut wrote: »

How does the OP know the location is wrong? In my experience it doesn't happen that easily..

I know because I live 1 minute from where I was stopped, and the location on the notice said I was stopped on a major road in Dublin 11, when in fact it was on a completely different named road in another postcode of north Dublin, approximately 3 miles from where I was actually stopped.

the culture of deference

JCDUB wrote: »

I know because I live 1 minute from where I was stopped, and the location on the notice said I was stopped on a major road in Dublin 11, when in fact it was on a completely different named road in another postcode of north Dublin, approximately 3 miles from where I was actually stopped.

It's simple the gardai are saying you broke the law on a major road in in D11. You were not even on that road. Therefore you cannot have committed the offence.

inforfun

Maybe i have missed the actual offence, sorry if i did.
But, is the offence even possible on that wrong address?

If it is a speeding offence, 60 where you allowed to do 50 but the limit on the wrong location is actually 60.....?

JCDUB

It wasn't a speeding offence.

I'm going to give the notice issue office a call later today and see what I have to do from there.

I'll keep you posted.

Viva la revolucion! :cool:

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

blade1

can i ask how will you prove you were not where he says you were?
he'll have your reg no. and i presume he asked for your licence.
will it be a case of your word against his?

JCDUB

blade1 wrote: »

can i ask how will you prove you were not where he says you were?
he'll have your reg no. and i presume he asked for your licence.
will it be a case of your word against his?

Well I presume a garda certainly would not lie in court, that would be perjury.

I have no proof of where I was at the time, unless I can access phone records or something, which is highly doubful. Well, I did have somebody in the car with me.

Update as of now: I called the fine office and confirmed location, then called superintendent in station nearest to address on notice and they asked me to write in a letter stating what I had told her on the phone.

I've just drafted letter and will drop it in tomorrow. We shall see..

Miseryguts

How long where you waiting to receive your notice?

maceocc2

It could go either way, I would say it depends on the judge. Its risky, but might pay off.

A similar situation happened to my brother, he was seen making and illegal turn off home farm road at 7am, notice came but stated that the offence happened at 1am, and at 1am its not an offense.

Anyway, it went to court, Garda insisted it was a typo mistake but Judge threw it out, my brother wasn't even asked what time the offense happened.

Does your offense apply regardless of location?

solovei72

Hi I have a similar situation. I was driving on Ongar Distributer Road and was stopped by Garda in manorfield Drive. I have recieved a letter 2 months later that I have committed an alleged offence in Windermere, which is more than 1 km away. How should I proceed this situation?

whippet

solovei72 wrote: »

Hi I have a similar situation. I was driving on Ongar Distributer Road and was stopped by Garda in manorfield Drive. I have recieved a letter 2 months later that I have committed an alleged offence in Windermere, which is more than 1 km away. How should I proceed this situation?

Proceed to pay the fine and accept the penalty given to you for the offence that you committed.

solovei72

Hi I have a situation. I was driving on Ongar Distributer Road and was stopped by Garda in manorfield Drive. I have recieved a letter 2 months later that I have committed an alleged offence in Windermere, which is more than 1 km away. How should I proceed this situation?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

djimi

whippet wrote: »

Proceed to pay the fine and accept the penalty given to you for the offence that you committed.

What offence? If they werent in Windermere at the time then how could they have committed the offence as alleged in the notice received?

They committed another offence, but obviously have not received notification of that one yet.

ResearchWill

djimi wrote: »

Thats fine for a technicality like having the name wrong, but if the notice says that the offense was committed in a certain area, and the OP can prove that they were not in that area at the time, then how can the case proceed? Id see it as a little more than a technicality tbh.

http://courts.ie/rules.nsf/0c609d7abff72c1c80256d2b0045bb64/d77fd0a1ce7bec2880256d2b0046a066?OpenDocument

The important bit,

" nor shall any variance between the complaint and the evidence adduced in support thereof, as to the place in which the offence or cause of complaint is stated to have been committed or to have arisen, be deemed material, provided that the said offence or cause of complaint was committed or arose within the jurisdiction of the Judge by whom the case is being heard"

ResearchWill

the culture of deference wrote: »

The address and location where the offence took place is the most important. If those details are incorrect then they cannot proceed.

Contact the superintendent of the area where the offence occured, explain the situation and he will cancel it.

The judge cannot amend the location.

Yes some people are correct saying the judge can amend addresses for post and spellings but not this.

Incorrect, see Order 38 Rule 1(1) of the district court rules, in fact informing AGS means they will just apply to amend on the day.

This case would also disagree with your statment that a judge cannot amend location,

http://courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/9b6b2814b04e8087802574fd00398b30?OpenDocument

ResearchWill

Cash is king wrote: »

Aye the ole high horses are out in force..:rolleyes:

I had a similar quandryca few years ago only the address only had the wrong townland on it. I told the judge I was guilty of the offence but wrong address and he threw it out but I was very nice about it and not smarmy. .

Best of luck!!!

You got a very lucky break for being nice.

solovei72

Actually there are 2 offence. One offence I agree to it and to pay it, but the second one I didn't do it all. My car has factory bluetooth and voice recognition keypad on front dash board and the multi function steering wheel. When you get in the car the phone activates and it automatically displays all calls and messages on the dashboard. I told the garda that I wasn't't holding or using the phone but the offence still came to me anyway, which isn't true that I used or held the phone.

solovei72

The first offence is for Driving Without Reasonable Consideration. When I came at the roundabout, the garda was there and he entered the roundabout and after that saw me and stopped me.

ResearchWill

solovei72 wrote: »

The first offence is for Driving Without Reasonable Consideration. When I came at the roundabout, the garda was there and he entered the roundabout and after that saw me and stopped me.

If you take points and fines now its total 4 points and €140. If you fight and win then its no fine or points if on the other hand you don't win the fine will be €210 and 8 points. It's your choice but having seen some of the advice here, you should talk to someone who actually knows the law and more importantly the local DJ before you risk it. Remember if it goes wrong you are only 4 points from a ban.