Neighbour reports farmer for breaching health and safety

TossL1916

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/09/04/2013/138518/passer-by-snaps-farmer-in-safety-breach.htm

What do ye think of this lads?

brightspark

IF the farmer was able to deal with the aftermath entirely from his resources, then by all means do as he pleases. But the costs of accidents are borne by us all and that means he should comply with the rules.

And he did have the correct equipment available!

Rovi

This 'incident' occurred in February 2012 (http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn-se-alton-farm.htm) and would appear to be somewhat innocuous to most of us, but this place (Newton Valence Farm) was already on the HSE's radar from a much more serious incident in June of the previous year:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn-se-tree-fall.htm

bbam

brightspark wrote: »

IF the farmer was able to deal with the aftermath entirely from his resources, then by all means do as he pleases. But the costs of accidents are borne by us all and that means he should comply with the rules.

And he did have the correct equipment available!

And how exactly would he "deal" with one of the lads falling out of the bucket and getting killed??

This guy was sending employees into an obviously dangerous situation, life threatening, with complete disregard for their safety and welfare.. I notice he wasn't endangering himself, he was putting others lives at huge risk..

We're in the most dangerous industry in the country and the attitude is let him at it if he's happy with it !! Your 10 times more likely to be killed in farming than any other business in the country... and its by no means the most dangerous one to be in..

I'd say the farm manager was lucky, I'd have expected more hefty fines and for the farm owner to be fined too.. this accounted to no more than a slap on the wrist..

Safety awareness and attitudes on Irish farms needs a kick in the ass!!

Viewtodiefor

TossL1916 wrote: »

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/09/04/2013/138518/passer-by-snaps-farmer-in-safety-breach.htm

What do ye think of


Only thing he did wrong was use a bucket instead of a grab or something like it whic you could stand in and it would then have support at waist height all around.
I think lots of guys take chances everyday which they shouldn't . However if people use common sense when carrying out a dangerous job then they should be ok. If we are to get into a situation where everything we do in farming is ran over by health and safety then we may aswell give up! Because in other industries there is so much bull****e to it tis a joke. And a lot of that bull****e is caused by workers doing stupid things in the first place which then leads to big payouts as the employer gets screwed or worse for not having some form filled in or signed.
As for someone sending in photos of this? Well either he's employed by someone to do that or has fck all else to worry him or do!

13spanner

Seems like he understood and accepted the risks involved, and the potential that it could go very badly wrong.

Reporting someone for what they're at in their own yard seems a bit much, if it's not harming you sure let them work away.

edit: Question is were the workers happy to be there, or forced into it.

wylam

For the farmer to be within the HSA rules for working at height, he would need to have a man basket on the loader with a handrail 1.1meters high all around it, and the man working inside would need to wear a safety harness attached the inside of the basket and also there should be a 3rd man on the ground called a "spotter" to keep an eye out for any danger and the person driving would need to be certified to drive the vehicle.What most people don't know is that working at height is now defined as any work carried out above ground level , so in the eyes of the HSA if I stand on a sheet of paper while working , then technically i'm classed as working a height, and therefor need to have a harness and be tied off.

There is no farmer in this country ever gonna comply to rules like this.

brightspark

bbam wrote: »

And how exactly would he "deal" with one of the lads falling out of the bucket and getting killed??

This guy was sending employees into an obviously dangerous situation, life threatening, with complete disregard for their safety and welfare.. I notice he wasn't endangering himself, he was putting others lives at huge risk..

We're in the most dangerous industry in the country and the attitude is let him at it if he's happy with it !! Your 10 times more likely to be killed in farming than any other business in the country... and its by no means the most dangerous one to be in..

I'd say the farm manager was lucky, I'd have expected more hefty fines and for the farm owner to be fined too.. this accounted to no more than a slap on the wrist..

Safety awareness and attitudes on Irish farms needs a kick in the ass!!

The uppercase IF obviously wasn't obvious enough to convey my meaning.

Massey10

bbam wrote: »

And how exactly would he "deal" with one of the lads falling out of the bucket and getting killed??

This guy was sending employees into an obviously dangerous situation, life threatening, with complete disregard for their safety and welfare.. I notice he wasn't endangering himself, he was putting others lives at huge risk..

We're in the most dangerous industry in the country and the attitude is let him at it if he's happy with it !! Your 10 times more likely to be killed in farming than any other business in the country... and its by no means the most dangerous one to be in..

I'd say the farm manager was lucky, I'd have expected more hefty fines and for the farm owner to be fined too.. this accounted to no more than a slap on the wrist..

Safety awareness and attitudes on Irish farms needs a kick in the ass!!

Id stand in it over a ladder any day .

bbam

13spanner wrote: »

Seems like he understood and accepted the risks involved, and the potential that it could go very badly wrong.

Reporting someone for what they're at in their own yard seems a bit much, if it's not harming you sure let them work away.

edit: Question is were the workers happy to be there, or forced into it.

Seems like nothing of the sort...
This cowboy was taking risks with an employee's life, when an employer asks an employee to do the likes of this, not many will say no and feel obliged to do it.. and the potential was for it to go badly wrong for someone else !!

wylam wrote: »

For the farmer to be within the HSA rules for working at height, he would need to have a man basket on the loader with a handrail 1.1meters high all around it, and the man working inside would need to wear a safety harness attached the inside of the basket and also there should be a 3rd man on the ground called a "spotter" to keep an eye out for any danger and the person driving would need to be certified to drive the vehicle.What most people don't know is that working at height is now defined as any work carried out above ground level , so in the eyes of the HSA if I stand on a sheet of paper while working , then technically i'm classed as working a height, and therefor need to have a harness and be tied off.

There is no farmer in this country ever gonna comply to rules like this.

So we adopt the attitude that being safe at work might be a little inconvenience, make a silly joke about it and then risk lives in a stupid stunt like he did, and justify what he did as being ok as the red tape makes life too hard :rolleyes:

brightspark wrote: »

The uppercase IF obviously wasn't obvious enough to convey my meaning.

There is no IF, AND or BUT to be applied to this scenario.. I know it happens weekly on farms and worse too... But there are no circumstances where it can be justified or excused.

We're dealing with people's lives here..

Casinoking

I gathered from reading the article that the proper equipment was available on-farm to do the job, they just chose not to use it. It would hardly be a major inconvenience to drop off the bucket and pick up a cradle instead. I think there's a whole different attitude needed towards health and safety in farming circles as a general rule. In the last 2 weeks I've seen 2 people on 2 different farms do insanely stupid things that I wouldn't have any objection to them being fined for. The first case was a fella lifting a one-pass on ONE tine of a pallet fork on a telehandler so he could crawl underneath it to change a couple of tines. And a seriously heavy one-pass at that. The second case was worse again, the manhole cover on a slatted tank fell into the tank when the fella was emptying it. As soon as the slurry level was low enough to see the lid he got a ladder, took a deep breath, and in he went after it. By the time I got to him he was back up, and asked him was he f*cking insane particularly after that case in the North. He said they were stupid men, they didn't take a big enough breath before they jumped in the tank. The mind boggles sometimes.

pakalasa

I know someone who was doing just that. He was a builder and working in the bucket of the teleporter. They were moving around the outside of a house working on a roof. Hit a hole and he fell to the ground. Serious injuries and very lucky he wasn't killed.

wylam

@Bbam, I never tried to make a joke about it at all. I'm all for health and safety, I work alot in chemical plants where h&s is paramount.

I was just pointing out that farmers in the ass end of no where are not going to conform to the rules and regulations set out by the HSA.

1chippy

I have often done it and have had no problems once there is a half clued in driver and feel competent then you should be allowed to do within reason what you want on your own premises. The H&S are a complete joke in some instances. rules made up by gob ****es with little or no practical experience in the job they are doing. it is going to get to the stage where everything is a hazard. if you were to stick to the h&s rules completly in every instance nothing would ever get done.

pakalasa

Drives me mad when I hear that Health and Safety is nothing but bull**** and a bit of common sense is all that is needed. So why are farms the most dangerous place to work in Ireland. More dangerous than all the chemical plants, building sites, heavy industrial plants.
We keep hearing that H&S is all about common sense. Does this mean that Irish farmers have no common sense.

Tipp Man

pakalasa wrote: »

Drives me mad when I hear that Health and Safety is nothing but bull**** and a bit of common sense is all that is needed. So why are farms the most dangerous place to work in Ireland. More dangerous than all the chemical plants, building sites, heavy industrial plants.
We keep hearing that H&S is all about common sense. Does this mean that Irish farmers have no common sense.

Paka - its very easy to answer why farms are such a dangerous workplace

1 - they are set in a family environment - the farmhouse is often part of the farmyard which means that there are often people in the workplace (yard) that you wouldn't find in the workplace of a factory or office or anywhere else for that matter (i.e. kids etc)

2 - farmers are dealing with animals and nature - animals have a mind of their own, if a bull is going to attack then he is going to attack you. I am struggling to think of another workplace where the mind of an animal could decide if you live or die, get injured or not. It doesn't even have to be that serious, the point is you are dealing with an animal, not much H&S can do about that

3 - farmers traditionally have to be jack of all trades - builders, plumbers, fencers, herdsmen, welders, machinery operatives, Vets - the list is endless. This can often mean that they are in situations that are not their run of the mill day to day jobs which means then might not be aware as a trained skilled professional in this area and they might not have exactly the right tools (or safety equipment) that a full time professional would have

4 - the average age of farmers must be older than any other profession/job in the country, this will always lead to more accidents as older people start to lose sight, hearing, steadiness on feet etc etc etc. In fact i am struggling to think of any other jobs in the country that has litteraly thousands of people who are over the age of 65. Couple that with the physical element of farming (and animals as mentioned above) and their will be accidents and deaths

This list is far from exhaustive but there are many many reasons why farming is the most dangerous occupation in the country - quite often the accidents are down to bad decisions, and sometimes just downright stupidity

13spanner

bbam wrote: »

This cowboy was taking risks with an employee's life, when an employer asks an employee to do the likes of this, not many will say no and feel obliged to do it.. and the potential was for it to go badly wrong for someone else !!

Very true, it wasn't himself that was above on it. Chancing his arm by taking shortcuts is all he was at, everything being "grand" until it goes wrong of course.

20silkcut

Tipp man pretty much sums it up.

There are a lot of builders plumbers etc who completely ignore/forget their safe pass learning when doing nixer/moon light jobs.

Those big construction/ industrial companies can afford to spend to the nth degree on health and safety issues it's easy when you have millions flowing in. Very few farms are in that position and a lot of farms have zero cash-flow to spend on safety.
Perhaps if more income was allowed to drip down to the farmer safety levels might improve.

brightspark

20silkcut wrote: »

Tipp man pretty much sums it up.

There are a lot of builders plumbers etc who completely ignore/forget their safe pass learning when doing nixer/moon light jobs.

Those big construction/ industrial companies can afford to spend to the nth degree on health and safety issues it's easy when you have millions flowing in. Very few farms are in that position and a lot of farms have zero cash-flow to spend on safety.
Perhaps if more income was allowed to drip down to the farmer safety levels might improve.

He had the right equipment available!

Speaking after the case, HSE inspector Craig Varian said: "Mr Kirby had been given quite recent training and advice by HSE and consultants and had the opportunity to use the correct equipment provided by his employer to carry out this job safely. Yet, despite all this, he lifted two men several metres in the air using an unsuitable work platform."

Viewtodiefor

pakalasa wrote: »

Drives me mad when I hear that Health and Safety is nothing but bull**** and a bit of common sense is all that is needed. So why are farms the most dangerous place to work in Ireland. More dangerous than all the chemical plants, building sites, heavy industrial plants.
We keep hearing that H&S is all about common sense. Does this mean that Irish farmers have no common sense.

I don't think it is all bull****e at all! In fact educating oneself on specific job dangers is very wise and should be promoted!
Unfortunately farming is not a job you can set specific rules and policies for due to its nature.
Think of some of the jobs done everyday by numerous farmers all over the country and how dangerous they are but still need doing often by older farmers. Examples are loading cattle, castrating, injecting suckler calves in a pen with mother, calving wild heifers with a jack, the list is endless!
All we can do is highlight the dangers and hope people become more aware of them.

Manoffeeling

Someone posted a link to done deal showing a bull being lead by a little girl. Stupid

Farmer Pudsey

Health and Safety is becoming a disaster area for ordinary workers. Managers want jobs done in X amount of time. Workers are trained how to do it according to safely regulations however to do it this way takes X+1 hours, manager knows this but for workers to achieve his target or get his bonus he must do it in X hours.

If there is ever an accident then it is the workers fault. This is happening all over the world. Health and Safety has become a monster especially in any manual type work that involves working at height or with machinery. This is why a lot of big company's now contract this out as they know that they cannot carry out this work to the safety regs themselves and make money. Look at the cost to employers to get safety certification for workers that operate

The reality is that there is another reason that Tipp man failed to address about farmer safety and that is a lot of farming is not profitable so often to bread on the table a farmer will take risks that if he had an acceptable level of profit he would not.
Also a lot of farming is done by oneself so if anything happens then the situation is made more deadly by that you may not be able to get help in time. I know of more than one fatality where this happened.

It is easy for a H&S inspector to be critical as he earn maybe 50K+ per year in a cushy envoirment however when you work to earn maybe half that every penny counts.

20silkcut

brightspark wrote: »

He had the right equipment available!

That's fine but I was addressing the general point pakalasa was making not the specifics of this story.
Most farms in this country cannot even begin to afford the kind of spending on safety of major industry.
Like everything else safety boils down to a money issue.

Damo810

bbam wrote: »

We're dealing with people's lives here..

And unfortunately no common sense! It's common practice, far worse is done everyday. As others have said, I'd much rather go up in the bucket than a ladder!

You can't seriously justify the H&S rules to "fix abit of sheeting" or paint the top the wall thats just too high to reach..

3 men, a cherrypicker and a safety harness to go less than 10 foot up? Where the workers have something to hold onto and have a steady platform below.

I miss the old days where people applied common sense, and didn't have to be reminded by a government agency to do so..

P.S, have we really come to the stage where nothing you do is private? You always have to be aware of an onlooker or photographer who'll report you for small infringements?

Bodacious

i never reported anyone for anything in my life but in uk on leaving uni i was an environmental consultant for a large company specialising in asbestos.., 2 irish lads living with me were getting odd days as students on large ex dairy farm/arable/he was into renting storage etc as close to london.

he had a manager etc but he had the 2 boys smashing out abestos insulation board out of an old dairy unit of the worst type (amosite and chrysotile) and sweeping it up with yard brushes.

I called out there and ran out of the place, One phonecall to the HSA and the clean up/decontamination of yard, medicals for the workers would have cost him £100k and a hefty fine, manager was smiling at me,,.. different set of rules for the farmers.. i begged the lads to leave , they persuaded me not to make the call, sorry since they got away with what they knowingly exposed those lads to

bbam

I fully appreciate the point that funds for safety equipment are low.
But there are so many instances where poor decisions or the wrong approach have resulted in injury or death.

Safety isn't all about money for the latest equipment, that's a lazy excuse.

Safety is often about standing back for a minute and thinking "what might go wrong here" and " can I do this a safer way"

How often have We seen children around yards when the yard is busy with machinery, maybe contractors in doing silage.
How often do lads walk under a loader when it's fully raised with a bale of silage.
PTO guards taken off cos they rattle or to adjust something and then not replaced.
Lads go Down into slatted tanks on a regular basis.
Going under tractors or machinery just up on a jack and no other support.

The list goes on.
A huge proportion of serious injuries and deaths could be avoided by simple risk avoidance and a little more effort.

pakalasa

I think there is a culture of taking risks on Irish Farms that isn't in other industries. Be honest, we all do it.
I was thinking yesterday about this, and even the making of silage bales has probably saved a lot of lives. I was a regular thing for guys to get killed on silage pits - reversing trailers, tractors falling off when rolling, guys pinned agianst walls. Calving gates have probably saved lives too, as cows are tied up out of harms way. A lot of simple things could save lives.
Every time you hear that some elderly farmer is killed on a farm, you're thinking 'why isn't something done about this'.

20silkcut

One thing that is very difficult to control/change is human behaviour particularly when it is in the private un-supervised arena of the farm.
All that can be done is keep getting the message out there keep repeating the dangers present on a farm through the media and hope that some of it sinks in.
But again that costs money too.

The problem is you can't make blanket changes to every farm in the country. The equipment exists for farming to be a very safe industry but the money does not exist to buy it for every farm in the country because so much money is sucked out of farming by other bodies that we won't mention.

bbam

20silkcut wrote: »

One thing that is very difficult to control/change is human behaviour particularly when it is in the private un-supervised arena of the farm.
All that can be done is keep getting the message out there keep repeating the dangers present on a farm through the media and hope that some of it sinks in.
But again that costs money too.

The problem is you can't make blanket changes to every farm in the country. The equipment exists for farming to be a very safe industry but the money does not exist to buy it for every farm in the country because so much money is sucked out of farming by other bodies that we won't mention.

I agree with your first point.
Human behaviour is a challenge, but education, reporting, inspections and public prosecutions for breeches will slowly chip away at the lack of safety focus.

On your second point I think it's a lazy excuse that allows people work away at the same old dangerous practices. It costs nothing to stand back and look for the safest way to do a job. To take the time to replace a pto guard, to tie off a ladder before working, to replace a safety guard Saying there is no money is a cop out, People can work safely at no cost, it's an attitude change.
I don't have access to the recent list of farm fatalities as I'm on the phone, but I'd guess a huge number of deaths weren't due to the lack of expensive equipment. But rather the lack of forethought.

20silkcut

It seems we are both agreed that human behaviour is the key to safe practices on farms.
I farm myself in a safety conscious manner and avoid risk as much as possible. An earlier poster mentioned the guy who went down into a slatted tank to retrieve a man hole cover I am absolutely gob smacked that anyone could be that stupid.
But that is the way things are a certain percentage of people are just incredibly stupid. Education does not seem to work on some people. What can we do?? Kill them off??? Sterilise them so they can't propagate???

bbam

20silkcut wrote: »

It seems we are both agreed that human behaviour is the key to safe practices on farms.
I farm myself in a safety conscious manner and avoid risk as much as possible. An earlier poster mentioned the guy who went down into a slatted tank to retrieve a man hole cover I am absolutely gob smacked that anyone could be that stupid.
But that is the way things are a certain percentage of people are just incredibly stupid. Education does not seem to work on some people. What can we do?? Kill them off??? Sterilise them so they can't propagate???

I have years of experience in this field.
The fear of being caught, fined and it possibly being made public soon changes opinions. People act differently if they think there will repercussions.

Even stupid farmers realise if there is a good chance of being inspected for safety, they'd learn to replace PTO guards and the other simple things in life. If nobody is going to check up on them they get lazy. Once you start people thinking of safety, they bring it forward as a regular part of their working day.
Of the 100's of investigations I've been involved in, ( fingers and hands crushed or removed, chemical burns, thermal burns, near suffocations, electrocutions ) By far the majority were from laziness, risk taking and poor decisions by the person or someone else.

People can change but it takes effort, at the moment there is little or no effort being put into safety on farms, until there is nothing will change, people will suffer horrific injuries and deaths from simple mistakes that could be avoided.

Massey10

bbam wrote: »

I have years of experience in this field.
The fear of being caught, fined and it possibly being made public soon changes opinions. People act differently if they think there will repercussions.

Even stupid farmers realise if there is a good chance of being inspected for safety, they'd learn to replace PTO guards and the other simple things in life. If nobody is going to check up on them they get lazy. Once you start people thinking of safety, they bring it forward as a regular part of their working day.
Of the 100's of investigations I've been involved in, ( fingers and hands crushed or removed, chemical burns, thermal burns, near suffocations, electrocutions ) By far the majority were from laziness, risk taking and poor decisions by the person or someone else.

People can change but it takes effort, at the moment there is little or no effort being put into safety on farms, until there is nothing will change, people will suffer horrific injuries and deaths from simple mistakes that could be avoided.

Have you ever stood in a bucket to do something or would you get a cherry picker to change he light in the shed

Suckler

Tipp Man wrote: »

1 - they are set in a family environment - the farmhouse is often part of the farmyard which means that there are often people in the workplace (yard) that you wouldn't find in the workplace of a factory or office or anywhere else for that matter (i.e. kids etc)

Mechanics / Builders / Vets / Plant hire firms / engineering works etc. Similar situations are common place where the home/workplace share the same space.

Tipp Man wrote: »

2 - farmers are dealing with animals and nature - animals have a mind of their own, if a bull is going to attack then he is going to attack you. I am struggling to think of another workplace where the mind of an animal could decide if you live or die, get injured or not. It doesn't even have to be that serious, the point is you are dealing with an animal, not much H&S can do about that

True but it also doesn’t concern a collapsing wall or a car coming off inadequate stands won’t be too concerned if the owner’s young son is underneath the car/wall. There are risks everywhere, people chancing it is the problem.

Tipp Man wrote: »

3 - farmers traditionally have to be jack of all trades - builders, plumbers, fencers, herdsmen, welders, machinery operatives, Vets - the list is endless. This can often mean that they are in situations that are not their run of the mill day to day jobs which means then might not be aware as a trained skilled professional in this area and they might not have exactly the right tools (or safety equipment) that a full time professional would have

They don’t have to be but they assume the tasks without fully understanding the risks too often.

Tipp Man wrote: »

4 - the average age of farmers must be older than any other profession/job in the country, this will always lead to more accidents as older people start to lose sight, hearing, steadiness on feet etc etc etc. In fact i am struggling to think of any other jobs in the country that has litteraly thousands of people who are over the age of 65. Couple that with the physical element of farming (and animals as mentioned above) and their will be accidents and deaths

Good point and it’s a worrying statistic. Coupled with ‘bachelor’ farmer statistic it is a worrying trend.

Tipp Man wrote: »

This list is far from exhaustive but there are many many reasons why farming is the most dangerous occupation in the country - quite often the accidents are down to bad decisions, and sometimes just downright stupidity

Spot on 100%.

20silkcut wrote: »

There are a lot of builders plumbers etc who completely ignore/forget their safe pass learning when doing nixer/moon light jobs.

That’s because the “threat” of financial penalty is no longer hanging over them.;)

20silkcut wrote: »

Those big construction/ industrial companies can afford to spend to the nth degree on health and safety issues it's easy when you have millions flowing in. Very few farms are in that position and a lot of farms have zero cash-flow to spend on safety.

Millions may go in but millions flow out at the same rate. If you sold twenty bullocks tomorrow at 1200 a head I wouldn’t assume that’s 24k you’re taking straight to the bank ;-)

20silkcut wrote: »

Perhaps if more income was allowed to drip down to the farmer safety levels might improve.

If farmers made more it wouldn’t go in to H&S. Blaming it on income is a non runner.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Health and Safety is becoming a disaster area for ordinary workers. Managers want jobs done in X amount of time. Workers are trained how to do it according to safely regulations however to do it this way takes X+1 hours, manager knows this but for workers to achieve his target or get his bonus he must do it in X hours.

Anywhere operating like this doesn’t last long and draws attention on itself from H&S / HR / Union sides.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If there is ever an accident then it is the workers fault. This is happening all over the world. Health and Safety has become a monster especially in any manual type work that involves working at height or with machinery.

Incorrect. Due to H&S legislation it’s the employer who has the finger pointed squarely at them and they have to prove that the employee had received all adequate training and that the training was maintained and refreshed every so often before it can be put squarely down to employee negligence. Even at that stage an employer can be instructed to undertake measures to ensure no employee is insured through the same negligence again.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is why a lot of big company's now contract this out as they know that they cannot carry out this work to the safety regs themselves and make money. Look at the cost to employers to get safety certification for workers that operate

It’s not the safety cost, you’ll find it’s the insurance cost and business cost should anything happen that forces these decisions on companies. How many times have we heard of someone who “took a fall” and is getting a bit of a payout yet still being able to go training/ part time farm etc. – it’s you and I that pick up the tab for this with inflated premiums.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reality is that there is another reason that Tipp man failed to address about farmer safety and that is a lot of farming is not profitable so often to bread on the table a farmer will take risks that if he had an acceptable level of profit he would not.

Short sighted and naïve approach. I’d prefer to be poor and have a parent than be missing one.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Also a lot of farming is done by oneself so if anything happens then the situation is made more deadly by that you may not be able to get help in time. I know of more than one fatality where this happened.

Correct, like I mentioned above regarding bachelor farmers especially. I’ve been in this situation myself, taken a chance and it could have gone very wrong. I doubt I would’ve been found until a neighbor walks by our place in the evenings.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is easy for a H&S inspector to be critical as he earn maybe 50K+ per year in a cushy envoirment however when you work to earn maybe half that every penny counts.

Cushy environment?:mad: Everyone who works outside the farmyard seems to work in a cushy environment. I’ve witnessed the grief a H&S officer has had to endure. It’s far from cushy.

Damo810 wrote: »

And unfortunately no common sense! It's common practice, far worse is done everyday. As others have said, I'd much rather go up in the bucket than a ladder!

To be honest so would I but I think that day is coming; ladders were banned on a site I was on previously. If you wanted to go above head height it was scaffolded out!

Damo810 wrote: »

You can't seriously justify the H&S rules to "fix abit of sheeting" or paint the top the wall thats just too high to reach.

No but then you can’t justify claiming off insurance if you fall. If all claims were viewed with a “stupidity meter” I’d say peoples willingness to take risks would fall also.

Damo810 wrote: »

I miss the old days where people applied common sense, and didn't have to be reminded by a government agency to do so.

The old days? The statistics for workplace deaths don’t paint them as being too good. Unfortunately it has to be a “stick” approach (paperwork+penalties+government watching) due to the fact that people take risks and expect others to pay the price. Common sense wasn’t or still isn’t that common. I’ve seen plenty of trades and professionals alike display levels of stupidity that were shocking for educated workers.

Damo810 wrote: »

P.S, have we really come to the stage where nothing you do is private? You always have to be aware of an onlooker or photographer who'll report you for small infringements?

Unfortunately, yes. Look at the U.S claim culture creeping in to the U.K. and will indeed reach our shores. Many UK town councils are removing playgrounds as kids fall, cut their leg then the parent sues. The Police constable in the UK suing after being called out to a 999 incident is another farcical incident!

20silkcut wrote: »

I farm myself in a safety conscious manner and avoid risk as much as possible. An earlier poster mentioned the guy who went down into a slatted tank to retrieve a man hole cover I am absolutely gob smacked that anyone could be that stupid.

I’ve seen an electrician go to test a live cable by touching it with the back of his hand – a ground worker test a rock overhang by jumping on it – an engineer check a jerry can with a lighter - a carpenter sharpening the back of his hammer to open timber wraps, 2 days later near severed his thumb – Never underestimate how stupid people can be.

20silkcut wrote: »

But that is the way things are a certain percentage of people are just incredibly stupid. Education does not seem to work on some people. What can we do?? Kill them off??? Sterilise them so they can't propagate???

100% agree but for reasons other than “Farm Safety”! :D

bbam

Massey10 wrote: »

Have you ever stood in a bucket to do something or would you get a cherry picker to change he light in the shed

Standing IN a bucket wouldnt acheive much, pointless... bit like the post..

Have I done stupid things in the past?, hell yes, I nearly lost the sight in one eye because I wouldn't walk to the van for goggles..
Now I'm much more cautious when I'm working, the jobs still get done and it doesn't cost the earth either...

But, having a pot shot at me or pretending safety is all down to poor farm incomes doesn't change the facts... We need a better, safer working attitude on farms..

Do you think that farms in the 80's would have tightened up on pollution by themselves? some probably would have.. but for many and possibly the majority the fear of being caught polluting and fined and their name in the local rag, that is what changes people's attitudes.. I would be more than happy to see farm safety being implemented in the same manner..

This is an issue where people are being mamed and killed weekly in our industury, the casual attitude is amazing - or perhaps given the statistics its not so amazing..

delaval

bbam wrote: »

I have years of experience in this field.
The fear of being caught, fined and it possibly being made public soon changes opinions. People act differently if they think there will repercussions.

Even stupid farmers realise if there is a good chance of being inspected for safety, they'd learn to replace PTO guards and the other simple things in life. If nobody is going to check up on them they get lazy. Once you start people thinking of safety, they bring it forward as a regular part of their working day.
Of all the investigations I've been involved in, fingers and hands crushed or removed, chemical burns, near suffocations. By far the majority were from laziness, risk taking and poor decisions.

Did you find against the employer or the operator who too the risk?

delaval

We had a bad accident on the farm 6 years ago and it did change a life. We try our best to assess dangers before we do something and we make safety equipment available. Despite this I had to send a student packing because he just would never wear a helmet on the bike. I was reading this thread last night with mixed views as no matter what I seem to do there ie always an eejit who just doesn't get it.

We were stripping the silo this am and I was telling lads about thread and to see was there a safer way to do it. We were working at a height used tele porter to remove as many tyres as poss but still had to get up top to finish.

I think bbam should start a thread to help us all be safer as you seem to have experience in the area.

Suckler

delaval wrote: »

no matter what I seem to do there ie always an eejit who just doesn't get it.

This is the problem - we all pay the price for the 1 out of the ten that still won't get it!

bbam

delaval wrote: »

Did you find against the employer or the operator who too the risk?

I've no qualification in safety but it was a roll I kinda grew into in a past job, investigating and reporting on accidents not concerning my own employees. Our focus was "the root cause" of the accident and recommendations for future prevention.

The employer's responsible to ensure all equipment is safe to use, that PPE is provided for the tasks, that training is given on both the task and PPE if required. That procedures to be followed are of a safe nature. Plans are in place in the event of an accident... first aid - who to contact and that an investigation is started. An employer would need to be able to prove that before commencing the work - every effort was made to identify and eliminate or minimise the risks of the task.

Employees need to work safely, use PPE. Not operate equipment they are not sure off - or feel is unsafe in any manner. Report issues to someone in a timely manner.. complete all training designated to them.


If the employer has fulfilled their responsibilities and an employee has an accident through their own actions then we would lay the responsibility at their door.. the outcomes often included, retraining-discipline- impact on annyal pay reviews.

Have a look here..
http://hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Agriculture/

Complete this one form for your farm.. update it annually http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Agriculture_and_Forestry/Code_of_Practice_-_Risk_Assessments.pdf

It will help focus you on the dangers..
Fill in the actions list on page 25, then do some of them, no rocket science needed.

slavetothegrind

if that man had harnessed himself to the bucket i would be comfortable enough with that, reasonable precaution.

You can't expect a small farmer barely breaking even to invest in an expensive basket for such jobs.

You can however expect reasonable precaution to be taken and this was not the case in the op.

If you apply the extreme case of H&S application, the intel variety, then employers shoud be heavily fined for having unsafe work carried out on their premises.
Lots of jobs these days are priced to the bone and the employers do not care beyond the job done how it is done

Conflats

Damo810 wrote: »

And unfortunately no common sense! It's common practice, far worse is done everyday. As others have said, I'd much rather go up in the bucket than a ladder!

You can't seriously justify the H&S rules to "fix abit of sheeting" or paint the top the wall thats just too high to reach..

3 men, a cherrypicker and a safety harness to go less than 10 foot up? Where the workers have something to hold onto and have a steady platform below.

I miss the old days where people applied common sense, and didn't have to be reminded by a government agency to do so..

P.S, have we really come to the stage where nothing you do is private? You always have to be aware of an onlooker or photographer who'll report you for small infringements?

I was in college with a guy handed his father a hammer and stood on the crossbar of scaffolding to hand it to him slipped fell 5ft and broke his neck and died... working at heights is a serious issue weather 5ft or 15ft the outcomes can be the same...

Yes people have an issue with being told to do something until the wrost happens somebody close to them has a serious incident.

Taking a few minutes to assess the job and think of the risks involved nobody is saying go get a cherry picker to clean gutters but think about ladder position, weather at the time etc common sense as you say but it seems to get forgotten when dealing with Health and safety

The age profile isnt the only major factor to blame its people taking shortcuts and not thinking before they do a job, agitate slurry take animals out of shed and fu*k the dog if he goes in.. that is common sense terrible tragedy happen regularly and using the thing between the ears can be a big help

bob charles

I try to work safe enough but when dealing with animals especially loading and unloading there isnt much of a safe way of loading animals.


Can anyone give an age profile of the farmers killed over the last few years.

bbam

bob charles wrote: »

I try to work safe enough but when dealing with animals especially loading and unloading there isnt much of a safe way of loading animals.


Can anyone give an age profile of the farmers killed over the last few years.

http://hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Agriculture/#fat

14% Were children
33% Over 65'5
53% Others..


Agree bob, handling stock is dangerous.. All we can do is have the best facilities we can, and handle stock properly... Gone should be the days of the lad wielding the stick he got at the ploughing and roaring like he was on fire !!

delaval

bbam wrote: »

I've no qualification in safety but it was a roll I kinda grew into in a past job, investigating and reporting on accidents not concerning my own employees. Our focus was "the root cause" of the accident and recommendations for future prevention.

The employer's responsible to ensure all equipment is safe to use, that PPE is provided for the tasks, that training is given on both the task and PPE if required. That procedures to be followed are of a safe nature. Plans are in place in the event of an accident... first aid - who to contact and that an investigation is started. An employer would need to be able to prove that before commencing the work - every effort was made to identify and eliminate or minimise the risks of the task.

Employees need to work safely, use PPE. Not operate equipment they are not sure off - or feel is unsafe in any manner. Report issues to someone in a timely manner.. complete all training designated to them.


If the employer has fulfilled their responsibilities and an employee has an accident through their own actions then we would lay the responsibility at their door.. the outcomes often included, retraining-discipline- impact on annyal pay reviews.

Have a look here..
http://hsa.ie/eng/Your_Industry/Agriculture/

Complete this one form for your farm.. update it annually http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Agriculture_and_Forestry/Code_of_Practice_-_Risk_Assessments.pdf

It will help focus you on the dangers..
Fill in the actions list on page 25, then do some of them, no rocket science needed.

I have a safety statement done and I send guys for quad training but the minute I turn my back...................

bbam

delaval wrote: »

I have a safety statement done and I send guys for quad training but the minute I turn my back...................

Human behaviour...
Thats the challenge....

If nothing else think self preservation... If a lad goes out and becomes paraplegic from his messing, can you PROVE you've done all you can to enforce their safety.. your well there with the training done.

20silkcut

bbam wrote: »

Standing IN a bucket wouldnt acheive much, pointless... bit like the post..

Have I done stupid things in the past?, hell yes, I nearly lost the sight in one eye because I wouldn't walk to the van for goggles..
Now I'm much more cautious when I'm working, the jobs still get done and it doesn't cost the earth either...

But, having a pot shot at me or pretending safety is all down to poor farm incomes doesn't change the facts... We need a better, safer working attitude on farms..

Do you think that farms in the 80's would have tightened up on pollution by themselves? some probably would have.. but for many and possibly the majority the fear of being caught polluting and fined and their name in the local rag, that is what changes people's attitudes.. I would be more than happy to see farm safety being implemented in the same manner..

This is an issue where people are being mamed and killed weekly in our industury, the casual attitude is amazing - or perhaps given the statistics its not so amazing..

do you think farms would have tightened up on pollution without the grants from the farm waste management scheme.??????

Back in the good times I spent 1300 euro on a tractor service which included 5 hours of labour spent fixing the handbrake. Handbrake lasted 6 months and was gone again. I will never again fix that handbrake it can go to **** the manufacturers should make better handbrake mechanisms..

Conmaicne Mara

Be a different thread if someone had fallen out of the bucket and be left dead or paralysed with a nice family photo tacked onto the news story to pull at the heart strings.

Massey10

bbam wrote: »

Human behaviour...
Thats the challenge....

If nothing else think self preservation... If a lad goes out and becomes paraplegic from his messing, can you PROVE you've done all you can to enforce their safety.. your well there with the training done.

Standing in that bucket is no more dangerous than riding a horse or motorbike or going for a cycle or what about a game of rugby or football . h and s rules on weight for one person to lift and hours worked and plenty more will never work at farm level . On the money side do you think safety will not suffer if a farmer has money problems.

Long Term Louth

Massey10 wrote: »

Standing in that bucket is no more dangerous than riding a horse or motorbike or going for a cycle or what about a game of rugby or football . h and s rules on weight for one person to lift and hours worked and plenty more will never work at farm level . On the money side do you think safety will not suffer if a farmer has money problems.

two workers in a grain bucket, this is the difference,this constitutes a workplace, the other events you describe are sports or recreation have different legislation if professional and if not, are generally performed by choice. It must also be remembered that it was the farm manager not the employer fined.

bbam

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Be a different thread if someone had fallen out of the bucket and be left dead or paralysed with a nice family photo tacked onto the news story to pull at the heart strings.

The challenge as ever is to have people think about the outcome before the risk is taken..

Massey10 wrote: »

Standing in that bucket is no more dangerous than riding a horse or motorbike or going for a cycle or what about a game of rugby or football . h and s rules on weight for one person to lift and hours worked and plenty more will never work at farm level . On the money side do you think safety will not suffer if a farmer has money problems.

None so blind as those who won't see..
I hope serious injury from accident never greets your door.. but if it does I hope your conscience is clear that you have don what could have been done..
Safety is as much about attitude as it is about money.. and your attitude isn't uncommon, upon many of the poor unfortunates who have made up the statistics on the hsa website.

20silkcut

Suckler wrote: »

Millions may go in but millions flow out at the same rate. If you sold twenty bullocks tomorrow at 1200 a head I wouldn’t assume that’s 24k you’re taking straight to the bank .


:D

Ha ha ha there is no way you can seriously equate the margins in farming with the margins in big industry/construction.
Not to mention the notion of being paid for "labour". In farming labour is something to do with Cows having calves.

I still hold my view that farmers are squeezed by processors/middlemen/govt etc and if more revenue reached the level of the farm gate then issues like safety environment pollution etc could be better addressed.
Farmers live dangerously and poorly so the people up the line can have their profits and nothing you say will convince me otherwise. Yes there is a cabal of rich farmers but the majority of us are very much not. Personally my income has been slashed by 8000 euro since 2010 with a few strokes of a pen here and there.

Long Term Louth

However,

You can equate the number of deaths in both industries.