Cycling with toddler

KITTIPP

Hi just looking for some advice. Am thinking I would love to take up cycling again with my toddler this time but wondering if at 3 (nearly 4) if he is too old/tall for a seat on my bike? If not can anyone recommend which is best , front seat, back seat or the trailer type attachment?

And also which brand of bike would be best for all that. Only planning on small trips just for leisure and a bit of air and activity so not looking for state of the art racer (also budget is small :-()

thanks for your help

Kitt

Lumen

Buy something like a second hand Trek 7.3, stick a seat on the back. Hamax ones are decent.

paddydriver

Fairly much all the toddler seats are limited to 22kg. There are ones that go on the cross bar that may be higher limit but not suited to a toddler.

All said, some of trailers look great!

Lumen

50% percentile for boys of 22kg is about 6.5 years of age, and those are icanhazcheezburger US stats.

beazee

Lumen wrote: »

50% percentile for boys of 22kg is about 6.5 years of age, and those are icanhazcheezburger US stats.

As pointed out in another thread - my 3.5 yr fella is already 19kg, tall and well built. Not much fun pulling him up the hill.

I am all for the trailers:

bhamsteve

I'd rule out the front seat straight away, if he's not too big for one now, he will be soon. I find cycling with one on the bike very hard work as your legs are in the wrong position.

enas

I'm not a fan of trailers: why carry more load than necessary? Also, it adds bulkiness and you lose the fun feeling of riding a bike, and same for the toddler. I much prefer cargo bikes to achieve the effect of a trailer, but at that stage I'm still only dreaming of having a cargo bike.

We use Yepp seats for our little ones. There's a front mounted (Yepp mini) and back mounted one (Yepp maxi). They're very light and comfy (above anything else I've seen). They combine well with Dutch bikes as it gives a very stable and comfy ride, even with the two seats (see here for example).

By the way, if you want to go above 22kg, Yepp has a seat for even bigger kids (up to 35kg). I've never seen that one though, and my opinion is that at that stage, they should harden and ride their own bike

In our case, we now only have the front one on the Dutch bike, with the rear one on my hybrid (it works fine, but it's much less pleasant than on the Dutch bike, you feel like you have to fight a bit against it, whereas on the Dutch bike, it doesn't affect handling at all). The front one doesn't affect in any way my pedalling (it's high enough that you have as much room as you need for your legs). The plan is, when the days get better (my wife is a fair weather cyclist ), to get a second adapter for the rear seat and she'll use the Dutch bike to carry both kids for short trips, which should greatly reduce car use. Of course, I'm not that cruel, so for family trips, I'll still take the rear seat on my bike for the eldest.

beazee

enas wrote: »

why carry more load than necessary? Also, it adds bulkiness

Could ask the same for cargo bikes

you lose the fun feeling of riding a bike, and same for the toddler.

Toddler has enough space to "read" his favourite book while on the way to preschool and I have no issues him falling asleep on the way back.

I much prefer cargo bikes to achieve the effect of a trailer, but at that stage I'm still only dreaming of having a cargo bike.

Dying to be able to finance a Bullitt, still a long road ahead.

enas

beazee wrote: »

Could ask the same for cargo bikes

The difference I find is that on a cargo bike (not a trike) you have two wheels, so it handles (almost) as a normal bike (plus it's much shorter too). Also having the load in front of you, you can see more easily what's happening in those situations where the extra bulkiness restricts things a little bit. My point really was that, with the same advantages (same comfort and loading capacity) as with a trailer, a cargo bike removes most of the disadvantages of pulling a trailer (but, unfortunately, they don't come for free).

beazee wrote: »

Toddler has enough space to "read" his favourite book while on the way to preschool and I have no issues him falling asleep on the way back.

On the other hand, on the seat, he doesn't need to read since he can actually enjoy the surroundings Incidentally, Yepp does a sleep support, for the front seat only. I haven't tried it though.

beazee wrote: »

Dying to be able to finance a Bullitt, still a long road ahead.

I'm having the same dream as you.

edit: why did my photos disappear from my previous message? Anyway, here they are:

Seweryn

KITTIPP wrote: »

Hi just looking for some advice. Am thinking I would love to take up cycling again with my toddler this time but wondering if at 3 (nearly 4) if he is too old/tall for a seat on my bike? If not can anyone recommend which is best , front seat, back seat or the trailer type attachment?

Hi Kitt,
I would just get another (small) bike for your toddler. I was about two years old when I learnt to ride a bike .

beazee

enas wrote: »

it handles (almost) as a normal bike (plus it's much shorter too)

Almost is the right word here. There is a learning curve with Bullitt pointed out by several users. And as for the length it's 245 cm vs 300 cm, extra half a meter for a trailer, can't see it much.

Also having the load in front of you, you can see more easily what's happening in those situations

true that.

On the other hand, on the seat, he doesn't need to read since he can actually enjoy the surroundings

No problem enjoying surroundings. No problem cycling in the rain. He's well protected unlike on the seat.

Incidentally, Yepp does a sleep support, for the front seat only. I haven't tried it though.

Would you leave your bike with them sleeping unattended? When out for a quick shopping? Trailer seems safer and more stable with three supporting points - two wheels and a mounting bracket on the bike side.

I'm having the same dream as you.

It's like buying a second car and we can't afford it

beazee

Seweryn wrote: »

I would just get another (small) bike for your toddler. I was about two years old when I learnt to ride a bike .

Tried that with TRAIL-GATOR, toddlers are too unpredictable to pull them behind you in the traffic. He's OK in a park or any other secluded area. But in the traffic he was constantly stepping on his brakes, having a great fun doing this.

Mr.Fred

No chance I'd put my toddler in a trailer. Drivers over here seem to have enough difficulty overtaking bikes.

I wouldn't fancy being stuck in one myself.

beazee

Mr.Fred wrote: »

Drivers over here seem to have enough difficulty overtaking bikes.

Three years and over 800km done with the trailer in and around Waterford.
Drivers here tend to leave much more room when they see a trailer than when I ride on my own.
But I can see your point. Being stuck by a car makes no difference whether you are in a trailer or on a seat.

Mr.Fred

beazee wrote: »

Three years and over 800km done with the trailer in and around Waterford.
Drivers here tend to leave much more room when they see a trailer than when I ride on my own.
But I can see your point. Being stuck by a car makes no difference whether you are in a trailer or on a seat.

That's true alright just the feeling of detachment with the little one in a trailer I'd be very nervous. You know yourself there's always one lad in a rush to a red light. :mad:

The pic you posted though certainly makes them look ideal, great for a nap after a long spin.

enas

beazee wrote: »

Almost is the right word here. There is a learning curve with Bullitt pointed out by several users.

I've never tried the Bullitt (unfortunately), but I've tried rental cargo bikes in Amsterdam, and I didn't find so hard (of course it feels weird initially, but so does any unfamiliar bike).

beazee wrote: »

And as for the length it's 245 cm vs 300 cm, extra half a meter for a trailer, can't see it much.

For me that sounds a lot. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's the monobloc aspect of the cargo bike that I like more, or maybe it's just a psychological thing.

beazee wrote: »

Would you leave your bike with them sleeping unattended? When out for a quick shopping? Trailer seems safer and more stable with three supporting points - two wheels and a mounting bracket on the bike side.

You have a point there. What I'm considering for the stability aspect is a two-leg kickstand, which should stabilise things more. Those things are surprisingly hard to source (in Ireland at least) and not so cheap.

By the way, what's that huge hub you have on the front wheel? Looks like an electric bike engine to me, but I doubt it is?

beazee

enas wrote: »

By the way, what's that huge hub you have on the front wheel? Looks like an electric bike engine to me, but I doubt it is?

It's a 250W motor running on 36V, I sourced out second hand.
When unlocked it will speed you up to 27km/h for ca. 30kms, when locked (road-legal) it will give a steady 16-18km/h over 50 kms. Great for tackling the hills and starting from the red. Had to figure something to save my knees.

Harrybelafonte

beazee wrote: »

Almost is the right word here. There is a learning curve with Bullitt pointed out by several users.

Who said this?

beazee

For starters:
http://humofthecity.com/2012/09/05/we-tried-it-bullitt-with-bionx-electric-assist/

Harrybelafonte

beazee wrote: »

For starters:
http://humofthecity.com/2012/09/05/we-tried-it-bullitt-with-bionx-electric-assist/

Read that, thanks. Honestly, if you have that many problems riding a Bullitt, you'd want to reassess your bike riding abilities. I don't get it tbh, they say it turns on a dime and then labour on about how terrifying it is.

They also included this: "[Update: With hindsight it seems that a big part of my problem was learning to ride with two kids jumping around on the bike at the same time. Other people report getting comfortable with the steering far more quickly. Also, Josh can now ride no-hands, see the comments.]"

If you want to learn to ride it while you have a kid on the top tube, you're going to have problems.

You are welcome to meet me and try mine out.

beazee

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You are welcome to meet me and try mine out.

Thanks for the offer. Might try once in Dublin.

Mr.Fred

Forget the difficulty riding it. I'd needed to be picked up off the floor after seeing the price. Yikes!!

beazee

There are others that cost half and weight twice that.

Harrybelafonte

Mr.Fred wrote: »

Forget the difficulty riding it. I'd needed to be picked up off the floor after seeing the price. Yikes!!

An investment. Bought mine and didtched the car for a few years. Saved the cost of it between insurance and fuel.

JC 3.14159

I've been through most of the child-carrying options now (except the front-mounted ones). A short summary:

Rear-mounted child seat: I found this the worst of the lot. Difficult to load a child, even if your bike has a kickstand, feels very unstable especially at low speeds or maneouvring around towns/footpaths/bike racks. This doesn't mean it's a bad idea, just that there are easier options.

Trailer: We started with a cheap one (an Adventure one for €180 or so). Used it a bit then got a too-good-to-refuse deal on a second hand Burley (here on boards I think).
The Burley feels about the same as the Adventure one to pull, but is better designed - easier to fold and unfold, easier to open and close the cover, better seats, etc. We've used it loads, for creche/school runs, errands around town, Mayo greenway and plenty of 10-20mile days (including some fairly hilly ones around Wicklow - make sure you have the gears for it!). Very easy to pull, it doesn't affect the bike handling at all, the kids love it, has room for toys etc and they are fairly weatherproofed. The kids sit low in the Burley - it's able to fit an above average height almost-6-year old (wearing a helmet). The Adventure one would have run out of headroom long before this. Some (like the Burley) have a decent boot. Between that, and strapping things to the push-handle, a small kids bike (Islabikes 14" or similar) or scootalong thing can be carried for when you get to the park or whatever. We've never had any bother from drivers, it has a definite pacifying effect. It's pretty visible - bright colours, it has a flag, stick a red flasher on the handle. I stuck a baby on board sign on too, because I'm not sure everyone figures out what it is before they slide into mindless-bike-overtaking mode. All trailer hitches I've seen are offset, so the right hand edge of the trailer is well inside your right shoulder/handlebar.

Trail-gators: We have one of these. They are fairly decent, much better (I think) than a tagalong/single wheeler. Can be tricky to set up right, and can be prone to slipping off-vertical. But they're the best job to bring kids to a park and let them off. Also great for the greenway etc, but it was handy to have the trailer too once small legs got tired. The child needs a bit of maturity not to let go of handlebars and pull brakes etc. We've never used it much on the road. A bit expensive if you need to buy extra bike kits (for adult or kids bikes).

Cargobike: We don't have a Bullitt, but have a Bakfiets.nl one. A bit heavier (steel frame). I've seen figures of about 34kg compared to 25kg for the Bullitt. But the Bakfiets includes the cargo box, so that'll cut a bit off the difference. We got this (it replaced a second car) to accomodate child #3. It does the job well, and is the only thing that will carry all 3 (2 on the bench + baby in his maxi-cosi. The carseat fits into a sprung frame so the baby is fairly insulated from shocks. Best to stick to smooth roads at first though. With a raincover they're completely weatherproofed. There is a learning curve to it but after the first day it feels natural (a lot better than the trike type ones). It leans into curves like a normal bike. It's more upright than the Bullitt, but that's fine for what it does. The kids do prefer sitting up front (and are easier to keep an eye on). It's obviously really good for carting shopping etc around too. For starting while loaded up, the step through frame is nice to have (compared to the Bullitt's top tube design). Again, no hassle from drivers - it's big, it's unusual, and drivers can generally see the kids in it. We haven't gone further than about 10-12 miles in it though - it's more a workhorse than a sporty cruiser type thing.

Of them all, the trailer is my favourite. It's the only option that can be cycled for long distances and at decent speeds (and is a decent workout too). The kids don't mind being low down (although that's when they have company - maybe a single child would get bored). Of course it helps to be heading somewhere nice, and break the journey up, stop for icecream etc.

enas

beazee wrote: »

It's a 250W motor running on 36V, I sourced out second hand.

All right, just what I thought. I was surprised cause it looks like a retrofit, and I can't see the battery either (but the bike is seen from far).

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Read that, thanks.

I'm with you here. This link would rather reinforce my views.

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You are welcome to meet me and try mine out.

I'd like to take that invitation, but I'm not going to be in Dublin any time soon. Plus it would be a waste of your time, since I'm not really considering buying one right now (finances won't allow, or at least I can't justify well enough the expense).

JC 3.14159 wrote: »

I've been through most of the child-carrying options now (except the front-mounted ones). A short summary:

Great post! But, can you be a bit more precise on why you prefer the trailer to the cargo bike? In particular, you say it's the only option that allows you to cycle at decent speeds over long distances, why can't you do that with the cargo bike?

Harrybelafonte

enas wrote: »

Great post! But, can you be a bit more precise on why you prefer the trailer to the cargo bike? In particular, you say it's the only option that allows you to cycle at decent speeds over long distances, why can't you do that with the cargo bike?

I think it's because he has the heavier Bakfiets and possibly with the children in it. I've been able to do over 50km on the Bullitt, including climbing Howth with an 8 year old in the seat, but that was a once off, I did commute from Ballymun to Donnybrook everyday on it while I was working though, about 5km of that carrying someone, but I'd be drenched in sweat most days.

beazee

enas wrote: »

All right, just what I thought. I was surprised cause it looks like a retrofit, and I can't see the battery either

Battery is hidden in the bag at the back, along with wet gear and tools.
There's an extra dog walking rig off the seat tube.

Iwannahurl

I'd recommend a trailer, personally, once the upper weight limit for a Bobike seat has been passed.

I regularly carry two kids in a trailer. Combined gross weight with baggage is often 50kg, which is like having someone else on a tandem with you, but not pedalling. Great exercise.

Just remember, however, that the powers that be have decreed you are not allowed to pass through kissing gates.

JC 3.14159

enas wrote: »

Great post! But, can you be a bit more precise on why you prefer the trailer to the cargo bike? In particular, you say it's the only option that allows you to cycle at decent speeds over long distances, why can't you do that with the cargo bike?

Anytime I've been pulling the trailer it's been with my good bike (it's a cross bike, but only ever used on the road). It had a compact chainset already and I fitted SRAM Apex 11-32 cassette and rear derailleur to help with the hills. The bike fits me and is comfortable for longish spins (30-50 miles per day). Pulling the trailer doesn't affect how it feels, except that you're moving slower. You can still use proper bike shoes and pedals, different hand positions, an efficient pedal stroke, spin up hills in a low gear etc. Admittedly, the trailer acts as a parachute behind you in a headwind, but it still feels better to be able to use the drops.

In contrast, the cargobike position is very upright, and the position is more hunched due to the swept-back handlebars. My elbows are bent 90 degrees rather than reaching out in front of me (I'm about 6'2"). I could fit straighter bars to increase the reach but then there's a risk of clipping the back of the kids' heads in tight turns.
I could do plenty of other things to improve the fit (setback seatpost, longer cranks, SPD pedals) but the bike has to fit my wife too (5'4"), so most things are left in the middle as a compromise.

Of course you could cycle it further than we've gone (by the way, that was 12 miles each way). It wasn't the bike that limited us that day, our destination just happened to be that far away. Everyone (kids and me) could have kept going quite happily.
It's not hard to cycle - just not as easy as the trailer. The gearing is nice and low (we went for an 8-speed Nexus hub over the 7-speed to get a slightly wider range).

I suppose it's like comparing a dutch bike and a road bike - you could cycle either for a fairly long distance (20-30 miles), but one is optimised for speed, the other for slow upright pottering.

I think another factor is where you cycle. Ireland is more suited to open-road cycling, where the trailer is ideal. I think if you lived somewhere more cycling-lane oriented where you could go for long relaxed traffic-free jaunts, the cargobike might be better.

As for annoying kissing gates or other barriers, a trailer can at least be unloaded, unhitched and lifted over. The bakfiets ain't liftable by one person.
Most trailers can be turned into buggies too, which can be handy for cycling into cities, events etc.

One thing I forgot - my comments on the child seats were mostly referring to having it on my trailer-pulling cross bike. To be fair, on a mountain bike it's a bit better - the wider handlebars help with stability and control. It's still a lot of weight mounted high up though.

beazee

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You are welcome to meet me and try mine out.

Took a ride on Cyclone couriers Bullitt on Cargo Bike Championships in Phoenix Park. Handling different alright. The problems I had was starting and keeping myself balanced at low speed, no issues at cruising speed though. Making turns in slalom was really hard at the very beginning, managed to make some progress as time went by. Could have made better if front wheel was equipped with damper. Watching how smoothly the boys rode their bullitts really made me want a bullitt myself. Off to the bank then, see how the things are...

beazee

So here she is. Arrived today. Bullitt Raw with NuVinci 360 hub. Waiting for the child seat to arrive and we'll be fully equipped for the school runs. Trailer will do for a moment but will be looking to sell it as soon as the accessories are in.

kenmc

have you a picture?

enas

beazee wrote: »

So here she is. Arrived today. Bullitt Raw with NuVinci 360 hub. Waiting for the child seat to arrive and we'll be fully equipped for the school runs. Trailer will do for a moment but will be looking to sell it as soon as the accessories are in.

Yes, please send us a picture (or two, or as many as you want). Also, tell us what do you think of the NuVinci hub. On paper, it sounds like a tremendous idea, I'd like to know how it fares in reality.

Where did you buy it?

beazee

I'll wait with the pics for the honeycomb board, side panels and a foldable seat to arrive. Should happen on Tuesday.

So far - lone test rides on short distances and on flat came positive. But only loaded and uphill will show what it's worth.
Love the idea of continuous transmission, was getting pi$$ed off after 3 years of cycling with the trailer and constant struggle to find the right gear at a proper cadence climbing.

Bit of hassle was finding a dealer offering NuVinci hubs. Finally found one near Dresden, Germany. http://www.urban-e.com/
Was shopping around for a good shipping fees and €300 was the best offered. Same as what L&H charges.

beazee

Welcome back.

A small technical issue is holding me back publishing a full review of the bike. I've got the gears set up for much flatter roads than they are in Waterford.

Below is a chart of Gain Rations (as developed by Sheldon Brown) showing my previous set up for the touring bike with trailer compared against what I put order for, what I received and what I plan to change for:



What Gain Ratio means is that "for every inch, or kilometer (...) the pedal travels in its orbit around the bottom bracket, the bicycle will travel X inches, or kilometers". The low - the better for climbing, the high better for sprinting.

So I observed the gears I used when with the trailer and these were between 2.3 and 4.5 GR most of the time, relaxed travel. Gears within 1.9-2.3 GR were particularly handy when tackling two hills on the daily school run. And anything over 7 GR was used very seldom, without the passenger, wind in back.

Having that knowledge I've put an order for 36T-18T setup for the Bullitt and went away happy.
Until the first school run with the little fella in. The lowest gear available was not enough to climb comfortably, cadence in 45-55 rpms, sweating and swearing but pushing the yoke up. Only to notice the chainring is 42T while sprocket - 17T. But, man, she's faast!

Few more days must pass before I collect the 36T chainring to set the things right.
Arrived weighting 24kg, with the box, seat and U-lock topping it up at 35kg.

Harrybelafonte

Hold on, you went single speed?

beazee

single sprocket
but continously variable gear hub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNcok8KdNE

Harrybelafonte

Ok, never saw that before.

Actually, now that you have it, might I recommend some good hard soled shoes or wider bmx/mtb pedals to save the feet.

Iwannahurl

I heard about Continuously Variable Transmission back in 2008 and thought it was very interesting and promising technology, but forgot all about it.

Nice to know it's being put to good use on family bikes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n15N6yS2dE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smijjy832X0

beazee

kenmc wrote: »

have you a picture?

CramCycle

I rode a couple of cargo bikes at the Irish CB Champiobnships this year. The tricyle (2 wheels front), takes a bit of getting used to cornering but not much. Old style cargo bikes are fine but the breaking wasn't great on some of them. The bullitt was the same as riding a high end MTB/Hybrid. Stopped on a dime, cornered lovely, no complaints whatsoever. If you can ride a bike there is no transition for the bullitt, hopped on, felt as comfy as my racer.

beazee

Last Thursday BBC Radio2 Jeremy Vine show on the danger of box bikes ("the most vulnerable thing on the road holding up traffic"),
starts @1:35:20
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03c4j3b

Iwannahurl

What an attention-seeking ill-informed gobshyte former Top Gear presenter Steve Berry is.

Cargobikes "don't 'alf 'old everyone else up", "should have an escort", "should pay road tax for starters" blah blah etc.

Pure motor-supremacist begrudgery, with only the thinnest veneer of alleged concern about safety, imo.

Lumen

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What an attention-seeking ill-informed gobshyte former Top Gear presenter Steve Berry is.

I remember him! He was on Top Gear when Jeremy had big hair and nobody watched it.

beazee

There's Kangaroo trike for €1.5K on donedeal:
http://www.donedeal.ie/bicycles-for-sale/bicycle-with-front-cabin-for-2-kids/5883255

Iwannahurl

I used a Winther Kangaroo on a trip to Copenhagen a few years ago. Very heavy, but solid, safe and reliable. The balance and steering take some getting used to. As I recall it feels like the opposite of a normal bike. Normally you lean into a turn, but with the Kangaroo I felt like I was shifting my weight the other way. After a while I got the hang of it, and found it really useful. Of course Copenhagen is a welcoming city for such vehicles, which helps.

beazee

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Normally you lean into a turn, but with the Kangaroo I felt like I was shifting my weight the other way.

Exactly the same feeling riding Galway Pedicab:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclecircus/3906495801/in/photostream/

enas

I always dreamt of a Bullitt for my family transport needs. Now I've just discovered much better, in a shop in Paris. The Urban Arrow Family:



http://www.cyclable.com/biporteur-triporteur/898-biporteur-urban-arrow.html

Apparently it's a Dutch company, making half of their sales in the Netherlands, and a good 10% in France. It comes with a NuVinci hub (great!), optional electric assistance (Bosch motor). It is very beautiful (the photos don't do it justice) and extremely well designed. There are many details that show it's actually been used by its designers. An nice detail is that the electric assistance can be retrofitted at the exact same total cost, which allows one to spread the expense, or to try first without. Personally, I would go for the electric assistance with no hesitation, as it has a huge loading capacity. I've tried one and it's amazingly smooth and reactive.

Over the Bullitt, I find it has a better design (it's subjective, but now the Bullitt looks a bit rustic next to that one), it's actually a bit better priced, since it includes a kids transportation bench, and, generally, it is clearly designed for kids transportation purposes, as opposed to the Bullitt, which has been designed with light goods transportation in mind.

Unfortunately, you can't buy that in Ireland. But it's a really nice addition to the market, which I thought was worth mentioning here. Now considering it more seriously than ever before…

Lumen

enas wrote: »

An nice detail is that the electric assistance can be retrofitted at the exact same total cost, which allows one to spread the expense, or to try first without. Personally, I would go for the electric assistance with no hesitation, as it has a huge loading capacity. I've tried one and it's amazingly smooth and reactive.

With disc brakes and electric assist it costs €3425. :eek:

enas

Lumen wrote: »

With disc brakes and electric assist it costs €3425. :eek:

You can always make an exception to the n+1 rule, and count that directly as n+2, which should solve the issue.

More seriously, if I remember correctly, you get roughly that price or slightly more with the Bullitt when you add all the options to turn it into a family transportation bike.

EDIT: Actually the Bullitt with electric assist climbs to €4141, with a bare platform (no kids bench, not even a box). The electric assist alone on the Urban Arrow Family is €1200, which is fairly standard I'd say.