Former star riders who sandbag A4 races

The Big Lebowsky

I don't race anymore, but I do attend the occasional race as a spectator.
Quite a few of my friends would be pretty new to our wonderful sport, and they ride the A4 races...

What concerns me is this, I see my pretty inexperianced friends sitting next to former star riders on the start line of A4 races. Some of these guys are former Ras stage winners, former county champoins, and ex national squad riders...in short- talented and highly skilled, highly experianced, racing cyclists...Just because these lads haven't raced in a few years, It dosen't mean their talent and ability have evaporated..

My question is this..Why are these former star riders even allowed to ride A4 events in the first place???

I see friends of average ability who train bloody hard...they spend quite a lot of their hard earned cash on equipment and travelling expenses... to be beaten quite easily by a sandbagging former star riders...every sunday.

I thought the A4 catagory was introduced to encourage fresh blood into our sport? Or maybe to tempt old guys like me into pinning on a race number again?

I would greatly appreciate peoples thoughts on this please...

531

If they are that good, won't they get placed, get points and move up to A3?

elduggo

ha ha, hilarious

DirkVoodoo

Why are they wasting all that money on brand name equipment. Bunch of Contador wannabes, tell them to HTFU

TheBlaaMan

I dont know. I suspect CI will determine the best initial class for a returning rider and then - plus their 'new' results - will place them in the appropriate category soon enough, no?

See here : http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ciaran-power-talks-adjusting-to-life-after-racing-and-his-comeback-ride-at-the-gorey/

Beasty

Wow - I'm racing against star riders. Fantastic - it's like getting a game of football with Lionel Messi

Now OP, can you point out who these former star riders are so I can get their autographs

More seriously though, I see absolutely no evidence of this. Perhaps some examples OP? as I've seen a few races and sometimes look out for the results, but cannot see any examples of what you are suggesting happens - and certainly not "every sunday"

But as has already been said, if they are that good they will soon find themselves promoted to A3, where they are bound to meet their match against the juniors ...

Zed.

1 worldwide cycles rider springs to mind....! There are a few others.
CI Tech regs "Newcomers to the sport will be granted an A4 licence" I am assuming ex top national riders are not newcomers....!

The Big Lebowsky

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

I dont know. I suspect CI will determine the best initial class for a returning rider and then - plus their 'new' results - will place them in the appropriate category soon enough, no?

See here : http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/ciaran-power-talks-adjusting-to-life-after-racing-and-his-comeback-ride-at-the-gorey/

My point exactly- Ciaran Power sandbagging an A3 race is exactly the same as former county champion sandbagging an A4 race..

None of my friends were given a free Specialized SL3 either...They had to pay for their own equipment..

elduggo

they got to learn how to sandbag from the best, for free though, so that offsets

Slo_Rida

OP, after all your trolling, you will struggle to get support here but if what you are saying is true then it is a bit disappointing.
I'm a newbie racer and new to cycling in general and have put down my first winter training. I can't say I know any of the big names from the past. But one thing I can say in semi support of the OP is that I was in a couple of breaks in the early races with that guy Barry something and noticed that while the rest of us were on the drops chewing the stem, he was rolling through at ease on the top bars. I found that took the wind out of sails a bit..as if I didn't belong there. He quickly got promoted. I was told recently he used to race at a decent level, is that true? If so it does seem a little bit wrong and surely when they raise their hands winning an A4 race it's a slightly hollow victory.
Remember I am a new arrival in this sport, thoroughly enjoying the thrill of racing but not well educated yet!

PS If mods have a problem with me mentioning yer man my apologies...it seems fair though if what I was told is true...

Beasty

Slo_Rida wrote: »

OP, after all your trolling,

I have a problem with you accusing someone of trolling. That is back-seat modding. Do not do it again. If you have a problem with a post report it, do not respond in-thread

Beasty

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

My point exactly- Ciaran Power sandbagging an A3 race

He's now an A2. Hooray, the system works...

Chips Lovell

He came back as an a2. I think he got an a3 licence initially but it was changed before he raced.

Slo_Rida

Beasty wrote: »

He's now an A2. Hooray, the system works...

There's no need for ex-star riders or whatever you want to call them entering A4. It's a beginners division. No matter what way you slice it, the "system" is not working even if they get promoted in first couple of races. A genuine beginner was entitled to those points.

buffalo

Slo_Rida wrote: »

There's no need for ex-star riders or whatever you want to call them entering A4. It's a beginners division. No matter what way you slice it, the "system" is not working even if they get promoted in first couple of races. A genuine beginner was entitled to those points.

He entered A3. Which is where I think anyone who has ever done racing before and was any way successful should start. Unless you've been out of the saddle (and not just out of racing) for a few years or something.

The Big Lebowsky

I remember seeing Stephen Spratt (2 time Ras winner) riding an A3 race a couple of years ago...just for fun

Spratty easily rode rode away from the field on his own....big smile on his face...He dismounted his bicycle just before the finishing line, and walked into the crowd to watch the guys he had left out the road fight for 1st place...

He could have legitimately won that race...but I guess for him it would have been a hollow victory...

Spratty was a class act....

letape

I have a sense of déjà-vu reading this thread!

ford2600

Barry Meehan came back racing this year as an A4. Not sure how long he was out of racing.

buffalo wrote: »

He entered A3. Which is where I think anyone who has ever done racing before and was any way successful should start. Unless you've been out of the saddle (and not just out of racing) for a few years or something.

Pawlie

Stop whinging and just get on with racing,this is worse than lads moaning about the juniors that are in A3,if lads just want to spin around do sportifs but if they are entering racing and starting at A4 they there to race,you dont have win a race to get upgraded being cute,staying outha trouble and building up your points is the trick to get upgraded,and if lads think going against former stars in A4 pelaton is tough god help them if they do get up and they try race with Eddie Dunbar,Dylan Foley and the other juniors.

Slo_Rida

Pawlie wrote: »

Stop whinging and just get on with racing,this is worse than lads moaning about the juniors that are in A3,if lads just want to spin around do sportifs but if they are entering racing and starting at A4 they there to race,you dont have win a race to get upgraded being cute,staying outha trouble and building up your points is the trick to get upgraded,and if lads think going against former stars in A4 pelaton god help them if they do get up and they try race with Eddie Dunbar,Dylan Foley and the other juniors.

Some day we'll all be as good as you Pawlie

Pawlie

Slo_Rida wrote: »

Some day we'll all be as good as you Pawlie

Didnt think you be the 1st to bite buttie :eek:

Slo_Rida

Pawlie wrote: »

Didnt think you be the 1st to bite buttie :eek:

Wanted to give wav1 and every one else a break from spanking you

Pawlie

Slo_Rida wrote: »

Wanted to give wav1 and every one else a break from spanking you

well that would be a change,me loves spanking :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

DirkVoodoo

Pawlie wrote: »

Stop whinging and just get on with racing,this is worse than lads moaning about the juniors that are in A3,if lads just want to spin around do sportifs but if they are entering racing and starting at A4 they there to race,you dont have win a race to get upgraded being cute,staying outha trouble and building up your points is the trick to get upgraded,and if lads think going against former stars in A4 pelaton is tough god help them if they do get up and they try race with Eddie Dunbar,Dylan Foley and the other juniors.

Ah Pawlie, this isn't really the same. The Juniors have no choice where they ride and it is for their own development. While I might not have agreed with the OP's previous post, this reminds me of a conversation that was had with my cousin's over Christmas:

I think it went that Sean O'Brien, having been injured and unable to play for Leinster, was eligible to drop down a level as part of his recuperation. I don't know the rules, so someone might be able to clear it up for me. Basically, my cousin (or was it my brother?) was saying that because "down a level" would have put him in his local club, there was a very real prospect that in his next match, my cousin would have been togging out against Sean O'Brien, the Tullow Tank.

Was it allowed? Yes. Did it happen? I don't think so, and I don't think it would have been fair to have an Irish International pound the crap out of amateur Sunday rugby players.

If former international riders want to get back into cycling for the fun of it, maybe they can do some sportives. If they want to be competitive in bunches and experience the thrill of racing again, maybe they should do it at a level that reflects their abilities. I don't see why they need to "work their way up" again, we all know their quality and a good winter would put them above your average A4.

route66

Make sure your friends have Carbon bikes. Preferably ones with good brand names - that'll scare away the former stars

Sorry, couldn't resist

Slo_Rida

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Ah Pawlie, this isn't really the same. The Juniors have no choice where they ride and it is for their own development. While I might not have agreed with the OP's previous post, this reminds me of a conversation that was had with my cousin's over Christmas:

I think it went that Sean O'Brien, having been injured and unable to play for Leinster, was eligible to drop down a level as part of his recuperation. I don't know the rules, so someone might be able to clear it up for me. Basically, my cousin (or was it my brother?) was saying that because "down a level" would have put him in his local club, there was a very real prospect that in his next match, my cousin would have been togging out against Sean O'Brien, the Tullow Tank.

Was it allowed? Yes. Did it happen? I don't think so, and I don't think it would have been fair to have an Irish International pound the crap out of amateur Sunday rugby players.

If former international riders want to get back into cycling for the fun of it, maybe they can do some sportives. If they want to be competitive in bunches and experience the thrill of racing again, maybe they should do it at a level that reflects their abilities. I don't see why they need to "work their way up" again, we all know their quality and a good winter would put them above your average A4.

Paul O Connell togs out for young munsters when coming back from injury. All contracted players must be affiliated with a senior club eg St Marys in Dublin, Bruff in Limerick etc. So they will only be playing senior AIL and to be fair, as an amatuer league, the players are so well drilled and trained it's not usually a killer when a superstar plays in it.

Pawlie

route66 wrote: »

Make sure your friends have Carbon bikes. Preferably ones with good brand names - that'll scare away the former stars

Sorry, couldn't resist

1st impressions last so look like a pro and shave the legs ha ha ha
and yea will be grand

fat bloke

"I only came here for the gear.... ended up marking Dermot Earley"

The Big Lebowsky

route66 wrote: »

Make sure your friends have Carbon bikes. Preferably ones with good brand names - that'll scare away the former stars

Sorry, couldn't resist

Yup they are all riding Cervelo R5s with Shimano dura-ace Di2, with Zipp 404 wheels....in their A4 races....And they might even get a few points, if those pesky sandbagging former 1st cat riders would feck-off up to A3..:pac:

Pawlie

fat bloke wrote: »

"I only came here for the gear.... ended up marking Dermot Earley"

Quality :-)

Beasty

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Yup they are all riding Cervelo R5s with Shimano dura-ace Di2, with Zipp 404 wheels....in their A4 races....And they might even get a few points, if those pesky sandbagging former 1st cat riders would feck-off up to A3..:pac:

Sorry mine's an S5 - oh and 808s

Craig06

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Yup they are all riding Cervelo R5s with Shimano dura-ace Di2, with Zipp 404 wheels....in their A4 races....And they might even get a few points, if those pesky sandbagging former 1st cat riders would feck-off up to A3..:pac:

Must be Usher members then?

The Big Lebowsky

Beasty wrote: »

Sorry mine's an S5 - oh and 808s

I suppose if you can afford a machine like that, you are probably far too busy working hard at your dental practice to ride very often;)

Is the S5 the one thats made in California by highly skilled composite engineers, just like the one Dan Martin gets to ride?

Or is it manufactured at the Hong- Foo/Deng-Foo mega factory in Taiwan? :pac:

RobFowl

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

I suppose if you can afford a machine like that, you are probably far too busy working hard at your dental practice to ride very often;)

Is the S5 the one thats made in California by highly skilled composite engineers, just like the one Dan Martin gets to ride?

Or is it manufactured at the Hong- Foo/Deng-Foo mega factory in Taiwan? :pac:

F*ck me Beasty is a dentist now..
When did that happen :eek:

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

F*ck me Beasty is a dentist now..
When did that happen :eek:

Jack of all trades - crap cyclist mind, but the bikes make me feel faster

Arthurdaly

The op does have a point, an ex German international won the des hanlon last month! An ex Irish junior international won charleville 2 day a4 last year and Barry whoever more recently.

Last year American junior internationals wiped the floor with the a4 bunch in the Eddie Tobin a4 race.

How many more of these former greats are making returns to the sport but not placing?

It's definitely not every Sunday and I've no great issue with how are these guys allowed race at very bottom level, surely a3 is more appropriate?

on_the_nickel

How do you gauge the fitness of an ex-very good cyclist coming back racing? He might have sat on his arse drinking pints for 3 years and not be fit.

So put them in A4, and if they're good enough, like Barry, they'll go up to A3 after 2/3 races, then maybe up again. Big deal. If they're not good enough, no problem. If they're sand-bagging, well that's their issue.

ericzeking

Raced against Barry, earlier on in the season and even placed behind him but didn't feel aggreived about points that may have been mine. Guys like us have alot to learn from racing against and watching guys like that. I know that watching him in the few races he was with us helped me greatly in planning out my own subsequent races.

In GAA you get former All Ireland winners playing Junior football every weekend of the year.

If the guy hadn't raced for 8 or 9 years or whatever it was, I think it's fair enough to start back at a low level.

ford2600

He's the most enthusiastic positive person I've ever met when it comes to cycling.
I'd reckon, and I'm no expert, the reason he didn't last long in A4 is what training he's done in past 6 month to prepare for racing rather than what he did 8 or 9 years ago.
Check his strava page and you'll get an idea of his training.
His worldwidecycles blog is a good read too.

ericzeking wrote: »

Raced against Barry, earlier on in the season and even placed behind him but didn't feel aggreived about points that may have been mine. Guys like us have alot to learn from racing against and watching guys like that. I know that watching him in the few races he was with us helped me greatly in planning out my own subsequent races.

In GAA you get former All Ireland winners playing Junior football every weekend of the year.

If the guy hadn't raced for 8 or 9 years or whatever it was, I think it's fair enough to start back at a low level.

buffalo

But A4 is defined as a novice category. It's for "new members to competitive racing". CI go so far as to explicitly state that "Former International Riders are not eligible for A4".

We've had discussions about A4 vs A3 before. A4 is for learning about racing. If you've raced before at anything above A4, then I say into A3 with you. If you're getting dropped there, then make your case to CI and drop to A4.

The Big Lebowsky

on_the_nickel wrote: »

How do you gauge the fitness of an ex-very good cyclist coming back racing? He might have sat on his arse drinking pints for 3 years and not be fit.

So put them in A4, and if they're good enough, like Barry, they'll go up to A3 after 2/3 races, then maybe up again. Big deal. If they're not good enough, no problem. If they're sand-bagging, well that's their issue.

A naturally talented athletes VO2 max won't diminish very much, even if he does spend a couple of years sat on his arse chugging beer.

Ive personally witnessed very talented cyclists return from a couple of years inactivity...they can go from zero to hero, with a couple of weeks panic training...

I just think these guys have a bare-faced cheek to be riding A4 races.... They should be forced to start at A3...A4 should be reserved for folks who never accumulated any points and raw beginners....it could also serve as a retirement home for old vets who aren't super talented..

dedocdude

I always thought the original intention of A4 was if you had any racing experience you couldn't get an A4 license, kinda like a driving license, Provisional (like A4) was just to learn, to try it out. That the bottom category is actually A3, A4 is actually a beginners class. I also remember that no cash prizes were to be on offer - although i found out recently this is not the case, at least not now.

Beasty

dedocdude wrote: »

I also remember that no cash prizes were to be on offer - although i found out recently this is not the case, at least not now.

The rules prohibit cash prizes, but some clubs are either unaware of the rules or choose to ignore them

Chips Lovell

dedocdude wrote: »

I always thought the original intention of A4 was if you had any racing experience you couldn't get an A4 license, kinda like a driving license

That's incorrect. The rules only prohibit ex-internationals.

Pawlie

Beasty wrote: »

The rules prohibit cash prizes, but some clubs are either unaware of the rules or choose to ignore them

Personally I was more delighted getting the points for my placings than the prizes while in A4,and I can say I feel same while I am trying to get points to get up to A2. If lads are serious about racing and want to go thru the ranks they should be only thinking about points and not getting cash prizes.

Slo_Rida

Stop kidding yourselves. They come back to A4 to get the thrill of beating down competitors. It's easy pickings for them and a boost for their ego.
Again, they haven't done me out of anything so I'm not bitter...even a neutral/non-cycling fan would say they have no place in the beginners division.

lennymc

as an a4 rider, who trains hard, and puts a hell of a lot of effort into racing, It really doesnt bother me. If ex 'star riders' feel the need to compete against slower racers to make themselves feel good thats a problem that they need to deal with. Its a bit sad imho, but how and ever. Ultimately, whats the harm. If they place they will get upgraded. If they dont place they arent taking points from anyone (and if they drive the pace on thats gonna make everyone else faster and work harder). I'd rather have my ass handed to me in a race and know I worked hard every inch of that race, instead of sitting in, doing very little, and finishing somewhere in the bunch, and if these sandbaggers drag me along, then thats fine with me.

Pawlie

Slo_Rida wrote: »

They come back to A4 to get the thrill of beating down competitors. .

Some arse slapping goes on in the A4 bunch alright

on_the_nickel

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

A naturally talented athletes VO2 max won't diminish very much, even if he does spend a couple of years sat on his arse chugging beer.

Ive personally witnessed very talented cyclists return from a couple of years inactivity...they can go from zero to hero, with a couple of weeks panic training...

I just think these guys have a bare-faced cheek to be riding A4 races.... They should be forced to start at A3...A4 should be reserved for folks who never accumulated any points and raw beginners....it could also serve as a retirement home for old vets who aren't super talented..

Reading through this thread, it seems most current A4 riders couldn't give a shiny sh!te and a lot, like Ericzeking and I, welcome it as a chance to learn for experienced lads.

So why are you getting your knickers in a knot about it?

lennymc

on_the_nickel wrote: »

a shiny sh!te

hahahahaha.

There was a mythbusters episode about that

Slo_Rida

on_the_nickel wrote: »

Reading through this thread........

........So why are you getting your knickers in a knot about it?

Really? Read through it again I'd say.