Car tax in northern ireland....help

Thefranman

well lads looking for some info here on car tax in ni....
im heading up to bishopscourt co down on saturday for a drag racing event and my car has no current road tax expired end of february and havent really the funds to pay fr the tax as the car has been off the road last few weeks anyway,,
can some1 tell me what the craic will be with the police if we get stopped up there can they take the car off u or what....
all info be greatfull

ardmacha

They an clamp/tow the car. I reckon police might float around such events looking for modified cars etc. Perhaps best to go on the bus.

Basil Fawlty

Your car must be road legal in its country of origin to be used on any EU roads. The PSNI are very aware of what a southern car should have ie: valid tax insurance and NCT. Unlike here there are no shades of grey up north. They are within their rights to fine you and/or seize the car. Try rent a car for the day. Most places will rent you a fiesta or car from €35 a day.

jamie72

you a fiesta or car from €35 a day.

I like how you separated a fiesta from an actual car.

Basil Fawlty

Thinly veiled Fiestas are great post.

tootsy70

Would they take it if it was just 1 month out ?

CiniO

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

Your car must be road legal in its country of origin to be used on any EU roads.

What do you mean by "road legal"?

Because Irish motortax is only required in Ireland.
It's required by Finance Act, and this only applies to vehicle used on public roads in Ireland.
There isn't any law neither Irish, or from any other country, that would require Irish registered car to have valid tax when being used outside of Ireland.

The PSNI are very aware of what a southern car should have ie: valid tax insurance and NCT. Unlike here there are no shades of grey up north. They are within their rights to fine you and/or seize the car.

They might be aware what's needed on souther registered car, and indeed they might not be aware that they can't enforce lack of motortax on ROI car, so therefore there is possiblity they will tow a vehicle.
But if this ends up in court, due to lack of requirement of ROI car to be taxed when abroad, OP should easily win the case.

dangerus06

i was stopped up north last year no tax had the car only couple weeks .no worries with guard told him my tax was in the post he just laughed
having said all that you need to drive up there from the south so you could be stopped this side

JoseJones

You can usually use a vehicle displaying non-UK number plates, and not have to tax or register it in the UK, if:

you’re visiting the UK and don’t plan to live here
you only use the vehicle up to 6 months in a 12-month period (1 single visit, or several shorter visits adding up to a 6-month period)
the vehicle is registered and taxed in its home country

https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/temporary-imports

So yes it needs to be taxed in Ireland.

ardmacha

There isn't any law neither Irish, or from any other country, that would require Irish registered car to have valid tax when being used outside of Ireland.
They might be aware what's needed on souther registered car, and indeed they might not be aware that they can't enforce lack of motortax on ROI car, so therefore there is possiblity they will tow a vehicle.
But if this ends up in court, due to lack of requirement of ROI car to be taxed when abroad, OP should easily win the case.

This is complete bollix and profoundly misleading to the OP. There are mutual agreements on recognition of motor tax in Ireland dating back to the 1920s. These quite reasonably are on the basis that you are exempted from the requirement for having motor tax in the local jurisdiction provided you are taxed in the other.

The authorities in NI are indeed unreasonable in relation to the period of time motor tax has been out. This may not be reasonable, but it is there all the same.

NIMAN

They would.

If the car isn't legal for the road, then it shouldn't be on the road.

End of.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

This is complete bollix and profoundly misleading to the OP. There are mutual agreements on recognition of motor tax in Ireland dating back to the 1920s. These quite reasonably are on the basis that you are exempted from the requirement for having motor tax in the local jurisdiction provided you are taxed in the other.

Could you give us any link to those mutual agreements?

CiniO

NIMAN wrote: »

They would.

If the car isn't legal for the road, then it shouldn't be on the road.

End of.

How do you define "road legal"?

Tragedy

CiniO, in order for a temporary import to be exempt from all local taxes, it must have paid all required taxes in the member state of origin. This includes Motor Tax, if such a tax exists.

Otherwise, the temporary import is not exempt from local taxes and must pay VAT/VRT/Motor tax where applicable.

There's an EU directive on it, but I can't find it at the moment.

CiniO

Tragedy wrote: »

CiniO, in order for a temporary import to be exempt from all local taxes, it must have paid all required taxes in the member state of origin. This includes Motor Tax, if such a tax exists.

Otherwise, the temporary import is not exempt from local taxes and must pay VAT/VRT/Motor tax where applicable.

There's an EU directive on it, but I can't find it at the moment.

It would be really great if you (or anyone) could find it, to clarify this matter.
It was discussed many times on this forum, and so far no one ever provided any proof that such regulations really exist.

JoseJones

CiniO wrote: »

It would be really great if you (or anyone) could find it, to clarify this matter.
It was discussed many times on this forum, and so far no one ever provided any proof that such regulations really exist.

https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/temporary-imports

CiniO

JoseJones wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/temporary-imports

That's just a guide.
And while it's on gov website, it doesn't mean it's 100% correct.

F.e. here: http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/temporarily-importing-a-vehicle
you get the following info:

You do not need to register the vehicle in the UK as long as you can show that the vehicle complies with the registration and tax requirements of its home country.

So according to it, vehicle must comply with tax requirements of its own country.
In Ireland tax requirement is that vehicle must have VRT paid and must have valid motortax if used on public roads in Ireland.
Therefore when vehicle is used abroad, Irish regulations doesn't require motortax for it, so then when drive outside Ireland it's complying with tax requirements of its home country, even if it doesn't have motortax.


As you can see, those information leaflets, even though from gov sites, contain many inaccuracies, and without seeing actual law regulations, we can't know what the right answer.

ardmacha

It was discussed many times on this forum, and so far no one ever provided any proof that such regulations really exist.

People drove around long before the Internet existed
you could consult the Motor Car (Irish Circulation) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 1925 and amending legislation.

JoseJones

CiniO wrote: »

That's just a guide.
And while it's on gov website, it doesn't mean it's 100% correct.

F.e. here: http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/temporarily-importing-a-vehicle
you get the following info:


So according to it, vehicle must comply with tax requirements of its own country.
In Ireland tax requirement is that vehicle must have VRT paid and must have valid motortax if used on public roads in Ireland.
Therefore when vehicle is used abroad, Irish regulations doesn't require motortax for it, so then when drive outside Ireland it's complying with tax requirements of its home country, even if it doesn't have motortax.


As you can see, those information leaflets, even though from gov sites, contain many inaccuracies, and without seeing actual law regulations, we can't know what the right answer.

You're not understanding it. I can't be arsed arguing with you, if you don't believe it then take it up with the DVLA or the Police.

The fact is, OP, you do need to have it taxed in it's home country to drive it in NI. If you don't, you could go with the expert legal advice of my cousin vinny here if you trust him. Or you could believe what it says on the official DVLA website. Your call .

Basil Fawlty

Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055757590

Donegal motorists with no motor tax are being nabbed by the authorities in the North.
Drivers were stopped at PSNI checkpoints last week after traveling across the border and members of Northern Ireland’s Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) checked cars for valid motor tax. Anyone whose tax had expired was clamped on the roadside until a fine of £260 was paid, with £160 of that fine being refunded if the outstanding motor tax had been paid in full within 14 days.
A total of 17 vehicles were clamped and subsequently released upon payment of the fine.
One Donegal driver who was fined told the Post that they were unaware that the authorities had any authority to impose fines on cars from the Republic. The driver accepted that they had no tax but questioned the severity of the fine.
The clampdown happened after checkpoints were established on the Letterkenny to Derry Road on Friday.
“In the current climate I know that people would be inclined to let things like motor tax be put off for as long as possible, but I would just like to warn people about the severity of the fine, considering if you were stopped by a Garda it would only be €65.”
A DVA spokesperson confirmed that the Derry operation was part of a continuous campaign against unlicensed vehicles.
“Once an unlicensed vehicle has been clamped it will not be released until the appropriate charges have been paid; if it remains unreleased, it will be removed to a secure pound at the Agency’s discretion.”
The monies collected go to the UK Treasury.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

People drove around long before the Internet existed
you could consult the Motor Car (Irish Circulation) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 1925 and amending legislation.

Hard to find, but here it is:

1. These Regulations may be cited as " The
Motor Car (Irish Circulation) (Northern Ireland)
Regulations, 1925."
2. Any person making only a temporary stay
in Northern Ireland for any consecutive period not
exceeding four months who brings into Northern
Ireland a mechanically-propelled vehicle for which
a licence under Section 13 of the Finance Act, 1920,
or. any amending or substituted enactment having
effect in the Irish Free State is in force, and which
is registered and carries an identification mark,
or identification marks, in compliance with the
Regulations for the time being in force in the Irish
Free State, shall be exempt during the period of
such temporary stay from the payment in Northern
Ireland in respect of that vehicle of the duty payable under the said Section 13 or any amending or
substituted enactment having effect in Northern
Ireland.
3. During the period of such temporary stay,
for the purpose of the enforcement in Northern
Ireland of the provisions of the Roads Act. 1920,
and of any amending enactment, and of any
Regulations having effect in Northern Ireland, in
relation to the registration of vehicles, and the
carrying by them of identification marks and incidental matters, the vehicle so brought into
Northern Ireland shall (a) if duly registered in
compliance with the Regulations in force in the
Irish Free State be deemed to be duly registered
in compliance with the Regulations in force in
Northern Ireland, and (b) if carrying an identification mark in compliance with the Regulations
in force in the Irish Free State, be deemed to be
carrying an identification mark in compliance with
the Regulations in force in Northern Ireland.
Given under the Seal of the Ministry of
Home Affairs for Northern Ireland this
[SEAL.] 22nd day of April, in the year One
Thousand Nine Hundred and Twentyfive.
GEO. A. HARRIS,
Assistant Secretary

Nothing is mentioned about tax.
Even further it states: if duly registered in compliance with the Regulations in force in the Irish Free State be deemed to be duly registered in compliance with the Regulations in force in Northern Ireland.

According to current regulations, vehicle registered in compliance with those regulations in ROI, only need motortax when used on public roads in ROI.

So there is nothing in those Regulations which would require Irish cars to have valid tax when travelling in the North or UK.


It's just not that simple. Police might seize the car without tax from Johny. But then Johny might go to court in NI, get a good solicitor, and if court is to decide that car was rightly seized, then they will have to show under which Law was the Irish tax required.
And if those regulations don't exist, court will have to say that Johny is not guilty, and Police is guilty for seizing a car without any reason.

NIMAN

CiniO wrote: »

How do you define "road legal"?

I would say, imho, for a car to be on the road it should have

1) An MOT/NCT Cert if required
2) Be driven by a qualified person
3) Be insured
4) Be taxed

Tragedy

Random but: The EU court recently ruled that this piece of Irish legislation was illegal

The vehicle may not be disposed of or hired out in the State or lent to a State resident.

in cases where the lending was of a short duration (under 2 weeks IIRC).
Further back, they also ruled that

The temporary immobilisation of a motor vehicle in order to secure the settling of a tax liability is disproportionate (C-156/04, Commission v Greece).

Anyhoo, Council Directive 83/182/EEC states

4. (a) The scope of this Directive shall not extend to the temporary importation of private vehicles, caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles and tricycles for private use which have not been acquired or imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of a Member State and/or which are subject by reason of their exportation to any exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

CiniO

ardmacha wrote: »

If Cinio was in the bible, he would be called Thomas. In this case unless the tow truck, clamp and judge can be produced he doesn't believe. The point for the OP is that he might not encounter a motor tax checkpoint, but if he does he will not escape by quoting Polish legal experts in Mayo. I suggested that a car rally may attract enforcement activity, but I don't know this.

I don't really like when people are moving from subject discussed into personal grounds. AFAIK this is against charter of this forum anyway.
I'm just trying to discuss, so don't comment on me, but on the subject if you want to discuss.

CiniO

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055757590

Interesting thread, and galwaytt showed opinion quite in line with what I think.

CiniO

NIMAN wrote: »

I would say, imho, for a car to be on the road it should have

1) An MOT/NCT Cert if required
2) Be driven by a qualified person
3) Be insured
4) Be taxed

The only thing is that first 3 are required by road traffic law.
4th one is required by financial law, and only applies to Ireland.

CiniO

Tragedy wrote: »

Random but: The EU court recently ruled that this piece of Irish legislation was illegal in cases where the lending was of a short duration (under 2 weeks IIRC).
Further back, they also ruled that

Anyhoo, Council Directive 83/182/EEC states

I've seen that directive a while ago.

Interesting one:

4. (a) The scope of this Directive shall not extend to the temporary importation of private vehicles, caravans, pleasure boats, private aircraft, bicycles and tricycles for private use which have not been acquired or imported in accordance with the general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market of a Member State

IMHO this in relation to Ireland applies to vehicles which didn't have VRT paid.

and/or which are subject by reason of their exportation to any exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.

That would apply if f.e. someone got VRT refund on exporting a vehicle and took it abroad to keep driving it on Irish plates.
When it comes to motortax, I can't see any exemptions or refund of motortax, which would be due to exportation. (except when you get motortax refund when exporting a vehicle).

But my undestanding is that vehicle which is just not taxed, doesn't match any of the above.

Also EU directive doesn't really make a law in any country. It just outlines requirements for the law.
I know most EU states (if not all on the Continent) require drivers of foreign vehicle to have registartion cert, valid insurance cert and proof that car was tested in accordance with testing requirements in country of origin.
Nothing about tax.

I can't be sure that UK and NI is the same - maybe it isn't - but I really spend a good while, and didn't find anything in UK law in relation to it.


BTW - nice finding about disposing or hiring foreign vehicle to resident being illegal under EU court.
Were Irish regulations amended since?

Tragedy

You're confusing temporary importation with permanent. Bringing your car with you on a day trip to Holyhead = temporary importation to Wales.

Also, it specifies general conditions of taxation in force on the domestic market and exemption from or refund of turnover tax, excise duty or any other consumption tax.
Turnover tax = VAT, excise duty = VRT, consumption tax = Motor Tax/Vignette.

By not taxing your domestically registered car due to it not being currently in the state, you're claiming an exemption from domestic motor tax (similar to claiming it as being SORN in the UK, while driving it in Ireland). As such, you're not covered by the directive vis-à-vis not having to register for 6 months, or pay local consumption taxes and VAT (where due, and with regard to double taxation).

Irish regulations haven't been amended, it's doubtful that they will until it's challenged in court - like everything else.

No real point debating the finer points further, I've sent off an e-mail to the EC to get a final say on the matter - but I don't expect a reply for quite some time.

Marcusm

CiniO wrote: »

Hard to find, but here it is:


Nothing is mentioned about tax.
Even further it states: if duly registered in compliance with the Regulations in force in the Irish Free State be deemed to be duly registered in compliance with the Regulations in force in Northern Ireland.

According to current regulations, vehicle registered in compliance with those regulations in ROI, only need motortax when used on public roads in ROI.

So there is nothing in those Regulations which would require Irish cars to have valid tax when travelling in the North or UK.


It's just not that simple. Police might seize the car without tax from Johny. But then Johny might go to court in NI, get a good solicitor, and if court is to decide that car was rightly seized, then they will have to show under which Law was the Irish tax required.
And if those regulations don't exist, court will have to say that Johny is not guilty, and Police is guilty for seizing a car without any reason.

Cinio

I have no idea if these regulations remain in force and you are correct that the word "tax" is not used. However, the correct name for UK motor tax is Vehicle Excise Duty and you will see the reference to 'duty' in the regultions. Taxes applying in respect of items which are not inome or profits are often referred to as duties. Irrespective of the legality, there is also a practical matter here. If the vehicle is detained, the OP will find it difficult to proceed to recover it and he/she needs to bear that in mind.

vandriver

Here's a novel idea seeing as funds are so low and all.Save up your petrol money and admission fees and all the other expenses that add up on a days outing,and pay your tax like the rest of us do.

keithclancy

CiniO wrote: »

What do you mean by "road legal"?

Because Irish motortax is only required in Ireland.
It's required by Finance Act, and this only applies to vehicle used on public roads in Ireland.
There isn't any law neither Irish, or from any other country, that would require Irish registered car to have valid tax when being used outside of Ireland.



They might be aware what's needed on souther registered car, and indeed they might not be aware that they can't enforce lack of motortax on ROI car, so therefore there is possiblity they will tow a vehicle.
But if this ends up in court, due to lack of requirement of ROI car to be taxed when abroad, OP should easily win the case.

While in principal you are right, there is no EU Legislation on Motor Tax or NCT only Car Insurance.

The country you are visiting can do pretty much whatever they like.

I'd chance it in England, Scotland or Wales, not a f*cking chance in NI, they will take your car and you'll spend a night in the cells while your shouting about your 'rights'

ardmacha

It's just not that simple. Police might seize the car without tax from Johny. But then Johny might go to court in NI, get a good solicitor, and if court is to decide that car was rightly seized, then they will have to show under which Law was the Irish tax required.

Johnny might get a good solicitor. But really, if there are successful prosecutions going back to 1925 it isn't really probable that this is going to work and there isn't much point in having a thread about it.

mgbgt1978

"Johnny" might well get a good solicitor.......but the OP can't even afford to Tax his car.
The NI fine, coupled with the fact that he will have to tax the car anyway to retrieve it, would encourage me to at least tax the car for 3 months.

Henry Ford III

Thefranman wrote: »

well lads looking for some info here on car tax in ni....
im heading up to bishopscourt co down on saturday for a drag racing event and my car has no current road tax expired end of february and havent really the funds to pay fr the tax as the car has been off the road last few weeks anyway,,
can some1 tell me what the craic will be with the police if we get stopped up there can they take the car off u or what....
all info be greatfull

If you can't afford to run your car you'd be best advised not to drive it, particularly to N.I. - that'd only be looking for trouble.