The truth about expensive overpriced carbon bikes

The Big Lebowsky

I would like to open a debate about the true worth and value of carbonfiber racing frames for ordinary non-sponsored sporting/racing cyclists.

Personally I know at least three people who suffered both physically and financially, when their shiny new carbonfiber dream machines were damaged beyond repair in quite minor crashes. Or have failed unexpectedly through normal-ish use on our wonderful pot-hole infested roads.

I guess the media are partially to blame, we see our heros doing some incredible feats on the pro tour aboard their (sponsors) uber expensive carbon Treks/Giants/Cervelos/Ridleys/Specialized...and we wish to emulate them.

On group rides I see mature men (who really should have more sense) bristling with pride, just having spent in excess of €2000 of their hard earned on a mass produced made in Taiwan/China frameset.

Do people realise all carbon frames regardless of make are manufactured in the same factories in Taiwan or China? In many cases by very low paid workers who are forced to work long hours...

Sometimes it makes me really mad when I'm forced to ride beside one of these ignorant deluded fan-boys, in the paceline on a group ride. They are usually aboard shiny new Specialized tarmac/venge, or maybe a Cervelo R2/ S2 is their prefered steed. No matter- their opening line is always about their hero's recent exploits on the pro-tour....Then usually launch into the same predictible longwinded explanation about how they came to riding the very same bike that Contrador/Cancellara used to win their last big race win.

You can buy all the expensive equipment you like, but if you are sat bolt upright and use a 8-9cm handlebar stem on even the most aerodynamic carbon wunder-bike, you won't go very fast...

Below is a few of links exposing the truth about overpriced carbon..

http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2009/07/easton-carbon-fork.html

Ole Rodrigo

Idleater

I could think of far worse ways to spend that money. In fact, 2k is a pretty cheap bike. You need to raise your standards. Ignore anything less than 4k.

Zyzz

As Charles Darwin once said..







"Who cares?"

lennymc

Interesting debate. I use a carbon bike for racing, a carbon bike for training, an aluminium bike for cyclocross, and have a classic steel bike or two. Never tried Ti or Wood, but would love to. Each one rides differently. I'm not sure if I can quantify it, but there are definate differences in the ride going from one to the other.

As regards the people on their shiney new bikes, i say fair play to them. Its a great feeling (imho) having something nice, that you worked hard for, and so what if you will never reach the bikes potential. I used to see it with motorbikes, top of the range bikes bought by people with no ability. fair play to them I say. If you want it, and can afford it, why shouldnt you buy it.

Looking forward to the various viewpoints.

DirkVoodoo

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Sometimes it makes me really mad when I'm forced to ride beside one of these ignorant deluded fan-boys, in the paceline on a group ride. They are usually aboard shiny new Specialized tarmac/venge, or maybe a Cervelo R2/ S2 is their prefered steed. No matter- their opening line is always about their hero's recent exploits on the pro-tour....Then usually launch into the same predictible longwinded explanation about how they came to riding the very same bike that Contrador/Cancellara used to win their last big race win.

You must be a big hit on your club weekend away.

Relax. And ride your bike.

Seaneh

Re: open mold frames being used by several companies at once a very good example is the Ribble Stealth which is identical to the De Rosa 838 which sells for €2k+ and yet the Ribble sells for €560!

The links TBL posted basically seemed to say don't buy it unless it comes from taiwan. I'd never buy a hung fu or deng fu frame or fork or wheels but I'd have no bother buying a frame made in taiwan by polygon or giant for the european/american manufacturers at all.


All that said, I'm currently riding a fairly heavy alu frame that handles ****ty Irish roads amazingly and I feel is still plenty stiff for my power output and weight (clydesdale), before I start worrying about bike weight enough to justify buying a cf frame I'd need to drop a few stone in weight so it's not something I'll be doing soon in reality. I do plan on buying a more rode sepcific bike (current bike is a specalized tri-cross, a tour/cx mix thats perfect for commuting in the city and perfect for touring as it's fairly upright and can take 35m tyres (35m with mudguards) and front and rear pannier racks at the same time) I'll be going for a steel frame for a few reasons, value for money, ride comfort and piece of mind. I already have my mind set on the Ribble Reynolds 525 but I want to buy it with a steel fork, not the Carbon black storm fork it comes with.

If in a few years I lose a bit of the gut and and I am thinking of doing a bit of racing or something then I'll revisit the idea of saving a few kg with a carbon frame and a lighter groupset but for me now ( and I 99.99999% of people) I reckon a decent steel frame and a 105/Centaur/Apex groupset and Fulcrums/Khamsins/Aksiums is bike more capable of performing than I need or could exploit fully so I'll be much happer spending €1200ish on that than dropping more on something with a carbon frame and ultegra/whatever.

Seaneh

Idleater wrote: »

I could think of far worse ways to spend that money. In fact, 2k is a pretty cheap bike. You need to raise your standards. Ignore anything less than 4k.

In fairness he is talking about 2k fames not 2k bikes. but still.

Chips Lovell

Here we go again...

1. Aluminium frames can break too..

2. Most alloy frames are built in Taiwan or China as well.

3. It doesn't matter a damn what factory a frame is manufactured in, just as it doesn't matter a damn what factory your phone or your watch or whatever is made in. Who designs the frame is what matters, not who puts it together.

bcmf

I am beginning to believe that this forum goes around in a very big circle and the the most rarely used button is the search button!

Laundry_Hamper

I really want to see a classic steel bike, with thin tubes and a tiny frontal area, stuck in a modern wind tunnel and tested at a bunch of different angles.

chester3455

some one is jealous

TheBlaaMan

Boring. I'll hockey my CF Ridley over whatever road surfaces I find myself riding and if it breaks (hasn't done so in 2 yrs) I'll buy a new frame for well less than €1000 and be on my way. I don't for a moment think any of my previous alloy frames would be any less likely to break. I'm no lightweight (82kg).

Something makes me think that if you ride a frame of X material, you think X is the best and Y and Z are rubbish. Do try to be objective.

You buy whats available and more and more that is CF these days. Enjoy what you ride. Move on.

furiousox

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

On group rides I see mature men (who really should have more sense) bristling with pride, just having spent in excess of €2000 of their hard earned on a mass produced made in Taiwan/China frameset...

Could be worse.
They could have wasted their money on something silly like a set of golf bats.

Briando

Are BMC still making there top frames in Switzerland ?

noc231073

Briando wrote: »

Are BMC still making there top frames in Switzerland ?

So they say!!!!

doozerie

If we all decide to shun "expensive overprice carbon bikes" then we'll soon have a new thread entitled "The truth about expensive overpriced steel bikes", or "...overpriced aluminium bikes", or "...overpriced titanium bikes", etc. I guess we could all just choose to ride DublinBikes, they are plentiful, relatively cheap (to rent), and in a crash it's probably the road that would come out worst.

Or we could just stop fretting so much about how other people spend their own money, life's too short to get all hot and bothered about things which have nothing whatsoever to do with us and which we can't influence anyway.

lennymc

bcmf wrote: »

I am beginning to believe that this forum goes around in a very big circle and the the most rarely used button is the search button!

Should I get tubs or clinchers on the btw while wearing a helmet in the cycle lane whilst being shouted at by a taxi driver driving a bus through a red light the wrong way up a one way street on the foothpath?

ednwireland

go buy yourself a cipollini then

http://www.mcipollini.com/en/filiera-produttiva

oh and i've broken 2 steel frames

my focus rides cracking over donegal roads for the last 3 years ( and i'm a fat f****r ) bet its made in one of those factories

lennymc

Briando wrote: »

Are BMC still making there top frames in Switzerland ?

I just bought a racemachine, which allegedly uses the same mould as the team machine, and it had a big made in taiwan sticker on it

The Big Lebowsky

So far all I'm reading indicates to me that the average boardsie doesn't particularly care where their overpriced carbon bikes are produced, once they can pretend to be Alberto Contrador...:rolleyes:

There are lots of artizan crafts people building fantastic bike frames from steel, titanium and even carbon for pretty resonable money, but none of their work is used by the pro-tour superstars and is ignored by your average wannabe cyclist.

Laundry_Hamper

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

So far all I'm reading indicates to me that the average boardsie doesn't particularly care where their overpriced carbon bikes are produced, once they can pretend to be Alberto Contrador...:rolleyes:

There are lots of artizan crafts people building fantastic bike frames from steel, titanium and even carbon for pretty resonable money, but none of their work is used by the pro-tour superstars and is ignored by your average wannabe cyclist.

An artisanal framebuilder can't afford to fund a cyclist's career. Big companies with advertising budgets can.

cantalach

In the last contribution that I read from the OP, he was accusing my own club of being upstarts because he didn't know any of us from his racing days. Now, he describes some of the guys in his current group ride as "ignorant deluded fan-boys" and says that riding beside them "makes me really mad." I'm beginning to get the picture... Anyone know if there is some sort of filter option on boards.ie so that I can just never read anything from this guy again?

Chips Lovell

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

So far all I'm reading indicates to me that the average boardsie doesn't particularly care where their overpriced carbon bikes are produced, once they can pretend to be Alberto Contrador...:rolleyes:

Yep, that's exactly what people have been saying.

letape

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

So far all I'm reading indicates to me that the average boardsie doesn't particularly care where their overpriced carbon bikes are produced, once they can pretend to be Alberto Contrador...:rolleyes:

There are lots of artizan crafts people building fantastic bike frames from steel, titanium and even carbon for pretty resonable money, but none of their work is used by the pro-tour superstars and is ignored by your average wannabe cyclist.

Some ridiculous conclusions above! This is just a follow on to your opening post on this thread, and was clearly your view from the start irrespective of the responses given.

I have an aluminium frame, a Scott carbon frame and an old steel Colnago. My favourite was my Litespeed Vortex which I should have kept.

redzerredzer

Are there any advantages that my aluminium bike has over these more expensive carbon ones?

The Big Lebowsky

Laundry_Hamper wrote: »

I really want to see a classic steel bike, with thin tubes and a tiny frontal area, stuck in a modern wind tunnel and tested at a bunch of different angles.

Don't you realise that the least aerodynamic part of any bicycle, is the person sat on top of it? A flexible rider with a flat backed riding position on an old skool steel bike will produce much lower drag numbers in the wind tunnel, than yer average wannabe recreational cyclist who is sat bolt upright on a Cervelo S5 or Giant Propel...

Laundry_Hamper

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Don't you realise that the least aerodynamic part of any bicycle, is the person sat on top of it? A flexible rider with a flat backed riding position on an old skool steel bike will produce much lower drag numbers in the wind tunnel, than yer average wannabe recreational cyclist who is sat bolt upright on a Cervelo S5 or Giant Propel...

Well that's hardly the bloody point, is it?

DirkVoodoo

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Don't you realise that the least aerodynamic part of any bicycle, is the person sat on top of it? A flexible rider with a flat backed riding position on an old skool steel bike will produce much lower drag numbers in the wind tunnel, than yer average wannabe recreational cyclist who is sat bolt upright on a Cervelo S5 or Giant Propel...

recreation = done for enjoyment.

Why would a recreational cyclist care about aerodynamics or some bitter old fart riding a steel frame on their club spin, moaning about why this wannabe Alberto Contador has spent so much money on a "made in Taiwan" €2,000 frame?

I'd say you could save yourself a few watts and brush that chip off your shoulder!

ford2600

I was just looking for that thread to make same point. I have no connection with mentioned club

cantalach wrote: »

In the last contribution that I read from the OP, he was accusing my own club of being upstarts because he didn't know any of us from his racing days. Now, he describes some of the guys in his current group ride as "ignorant deluded fan-boys" and says that riding beside them "makes me really mad." I'm beginning to get the picture... Anyone know if there is some sort of filter option on boards.ie so that I can just never read anything from this guy again?

el tel

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Sometimes it makes me really mad when I'm forced to ride beside one of these ignorant deluded fan-boys, in the paceline on a group ride.

You need to get out less.

The Big Lebowsky

cantalach wrote: »

In the last contribution that I read from the OP, he was accusing my own club of being upstarts because he didn't know any of us from his racing days. Now, he describes some of the guys in his current group ride as "ignorant deluded fan-boys" and says that riding beside them "makes me really mad." I'm beginning to get the picture... Anyone know if there is some sort of filter option on boards.ie so that I can just never read anything from this guy again?

What exactly are you proposing sir? Am I only entitled to have an opinion that matches yours?

Last time I checked we were living in a democratic country. This entitles the citizens of our country the right to express themselves freely.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

cantalach

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

What exactly are you proposing sir? Am I only entitled to have an opinion that matches yours?

Last time I checked we were living in a democratic country. This entitles the citizens of our country the right to express themselves freely.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

Zzzzzzzzzz... Slán. Go deo.

Brian?

I have a Fuji Altamira. It was: built in Poland, cost me about 200 quid more that a Canyon Roadlite Al because I got it 50% off in the states and it's not currently ridden by any pro team.

Do I have permission to ride it?

On the other hand I have Mavic cosmics that push the bike over 2k. Can I only go out for spins on the stock wheels?

Darkglasses

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

What exactly are you proposing sir? Am I only entitled to have an opinion that matches yours?

Last time I checked we were living in a democratic country. This entitles the citizens of our country the right to express themselves freely.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire

Yes but on Boards.ie, we can criticize your posts all we want, and they stink of very half-baked bike snobbery.

The Big Lebowsky

Please forgive me for having a social conscience...I do actually care where my cycling equipment is made...Believe me it's nothing to do with snobbery.

I'm just saddned by the fact the average bordsie cyclist cares not where or how their equipment is made, once they can pretend to be Bradley Wiggians every sunday on their overpriced made in Taiwan carbon Pinarello bicycles.

Full disclosure- I do have a specialized bike saddle that was no doubt produced in the same factory as those overrated over hyped pro-tour wannabe bike frames..Was forced to buy it recently as a last resort, because of pain and suffering caused by the many Italian selle saddles I bought over the years....Does this make me a hypocrite? Yes absolutely...

The tax man

lennymc wrote: »

I just bought a racemachine, which allegedly uses the same mould as the team machine, and it had a big made in taiwan sticker on it

Lenny, the sticker was made in Taiwan.:D

Cookie_Monster

my new carbon bike is made in Germany, not Taiwan. does that make it ok?

Brian?

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Please forgive me for having a social conscience...I do actually care where my cycling equipment is made...Believe me it's nothing to do with snobbery.

I'm just saddned by the fact the average bordsie cyclist cares not where or how their equipment is made, once they can pretend to be Bradley Wiggians every sunday on their overpriced made in Taiwan carbon Pinarello bicycles.

What's wrong with Taiwan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Taiwan

One of the most free nations in Asia, decent workers right.

Icyseanfitz

You do know that the most skilled bike manufacturers in the world are actually in Taiwan, it's not just cheap labour, they are actually great at building bikes

AltAccount

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Please forgive me for having a social conscience...I do actually care where my cycling equipment is made...Believe me it's nothing to do with snobbery.

I'm just saddned by the fact the average bordsie cyclist cares not where or how their equipment is made, once they can pretend to be Bradley Wiggians every sunday on their overpriced made in Taiwan carbon Pinarello bicycles.

Well then, why read boards if it makes you sad?

Question for you - €1,700 budget, not allowed to buy second hand, what do you buy/recommend?

Beasty

I have a nice house, but it's probably worth 60% of what I paid for it

I have a nice car - It would have been a lot cheaper if I could have bought it in the UK

I have some nice bikes, probably costing a bit more than most people around here are prepared to spend on bikes

In all cases I was happy to pay what I paid for them. I work hard and earn a decent living which allows me to spend my money on things I enjoy. I do not apologise for spending my money on such things. Were any of them overpriced? Absolutely not - if they were I would not have bought them

I do not pretend to be Alberto Contador, but do object to being compared with him

alexanderomahon

Is my pro carbon planet x bike to work scheme discounted carbon framed baby included. I believe it is made by unionised dwarfs in the nuclear free, Thatcher free, workers republic of Sheffield.

awec

I'm willing to bet the OP owns many, many items that are produced in low paying factories in Taiwan and China, more than just his nice saddle.

Is it just cycle equipment that we are supposed to show outrage over?

Darkglasses

awec wrote: »

I'm willing to bet the OP owns many, many items that are produced in low paying factories in Taiwan and China, more than just his nice saddle.

Is it just cycle equipment that we are supposed to show outrage over?

Wonder if his tyres and tubes were made in carbon-neutral and non-polluting artisan workshops in the EU

The Big Lebowsky

I guess there is a lot of brand snobbery in cycling...Perhaps middle aged men with fragile egos need to been seen riding the latest pro-tour replica bicycles?

I suppose most people have desperate need to conform, so they buy the stuff they see their heros and their cycling friends using. Sometimes I wish people would wake the hell up and start making informed choices, and not just following sheep like...

paddydriver

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

I guess there is a lot of brand snobbery in cycling...Perhaps middle aged men with fragile egos need to been seen riding the latest pro-tour replica bicycles?

I suppose most people have desperate need to conform, so they buy the stuff they see their heros and their cycling friends using. Sometimes I wish people would wake the hell up and start making informed choices, and not just following sheep like...

Was with you until you ended your sentence..like:rolleyes:

Mycroft H

I only wish I had 2k to spend on a bike.

The Big Lebowsky

Darkglasses wrote: »

Wonder if his tyres and tubes were made in carbon-neutral and non-polluting artisan workshops in the EU

Tyres are Michelin- made in France
Tubes are Continental-made in Germany
Rims are Velocity-Made in the USA
Hubs are Hope- Made in Barnoldswick Lancashire UK
Spokes are Sapim made in Belgium

One of my framesets is columbus slx, made by an old friend in the Uk..
My good bike is a years old and very stout titanium job that was hand made in the USA by a skilled crafts person...

Groupsets are campag and shimano...

derealbadger

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Tyres are Michelin- made in France
Tubes are Continental-made in Germany
Rims are Velocity-Made in the USA
Hubs are Hope- Made in Barnoldswick Lancashire UK
Spokes are Sapim made in Belgium

One of my framesets is columbus slx, made by an old friend in the Uk..
My good bike is a years old and very stout titanium job that was hand made in the USA by a skilled crafts person...

Groupsets are campag and shimano...

Ok we get it you hate them little yella feckers with their small hands so perfect for working on all those little bits:D
I am not racist I hate everybody equally i also love the noise carbon makes when you flick it

awec

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

Tyres are Michelin- made in France
Tubes are Continental-made in Germany
Rims are Velocity-Made in the USA
Hubs are Hope- Made in Barnoldswick Lancashire UK
Spokes are Sapim made in Belgium

One of my framesets is columbus slx, made by an old friend in the Uk..
My good bike is a years old and very stout titanium job that was hand made in the USA by a skilled crafts person...

Groupsets are campag and shimano...

You do know that both Michelin and Continental have significantly large factories in Asia, right?