Campag shifting

foxer3640

Hi all. I've been having some problems with my shifting on the rear derailler. Its a 2010 campag centaur. It seems to shift up (towards the center of the wheel) pretty ok if a little stiff but its terrible when shifting down. I have to click 3 times with the thumb before anything happens and then i jump 3 gears in one go :mad:. Its been going on for a while i've replaced cables and outers and keep it clean but it just never seems perfect. Funny thing is i have shimano tiagra on the training bike and its working like new even after a hard wet winters riding. Is centaur just a crap system or is there something i'm missing? one thing i notice is if i touch the cable under the downtube then it will shift. Should i upgrade the shifters to record? To say i'm sick of campag would be an understatement.... Help!

Laundry_Hamper

Sounds like the problem is either cable- or derailleur-related... When you move the derailleur's parallelogram with your hand, is it at all stiff?

DirkVoodoo

Sounds like cable is possibly catching somewhere and not releasing as you slacken the cable. Have you checked your cable routing under the bottom bracket?

foxer3640

Thanks for the quick replys guys. The derailler seems to be working fine and the cables were all replaced again recently. pulling my hair out

Laundry_Hamper

Any chance the ends of the cable outers weren't clipped very cleanly? Does the cable slide within them without any resistance?

bcmf

I am gonna go with the indexing system on the shifter is wearing.
How much use do you reckon they have had?
I think ,and I am open to correction, but there was an issue with some of the Centaur shifters being crap and benefitting from a rebuild. As I said I very much stand open to correction on that point.

foxer3640

Laundry_Hamper wrote: »

Any chance the ends of the cable outers weren't clipped very cleanly? Does the cable slide within them without any resistance?

Thanks will check that out. I have a feeling the problem is at the shifter but its only a guess. Would record shifters be an immprovement over centaur? i would change to ultegra in a heartbeat but it would cost a fortune.

Laundry_Hamper

bcmf wrote: »

I am gonna go with the indexing system on the shifter is wearing.
How much use do you reckon they have had?
I think ,and I am open to correction, but there was an issue with some of the Centaur shifters being crap and benefitting from a rebuild. As I said I very much stand open to correction on that point.

If three clicks results in the derailleur jumping three places, the springs and index ring are both grand.

foxer3640

Laundry_Hamper wrote: »

If three clicks results in the derailleur jumping three places, the springs and index ring are both grand.

Problem is that its jumping the 3 gears in one go like its sticking or something.

Laundry_Hamper

foxer3640 wrote: »

Problem is that its jumping the 3 gears in one go like its sticking or something.

Yeah, but if it sticks, the pawl that ratchets against the indexing ring won't move, and will slip into the same position again. Three clicks giving three shifts, even if it's all at once, says to me that the shifter itself is grand.

Edit: Technical correction: It's actually the ring that would be rotating, and not the pawl. My point still holds though.

bcmf

If the mech doesnt move one gear when he clicks for one gear and all the cables are new and clean but then the whole lot jumps in one its
IMO
the cable snagging due to be routed wrongly outta the housing or faulty shifters.
My opinion of course.

Laundry_Hamper

foxer3640 wrote: »

Thanks will check that out. I have a feeling the problem is at the shifter but its only a guess. Would record shifters be an immprovement over centaur? i would change to ultegra in a heartbeat but it would cost a fortune.

Here's some info for learning, and some pictures for comparing:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cables.html

Seaneh

Here's a question for the campag heads.

I had the older sora on my last bike with the thumb shifter on the inside of the levers, it wrecked my head as it was impossible to control it from the drops so had to change hand position a lot to shift up/down.

Campag shifters have a similar thing shifter on their levers, how hard is it to operate those from the drops?

Genuinely interested because Im looking at a ribble 525 and think it would look the absolute mutts nuts with red and black centaur and red and black Khamsins on it but not totally sold on the above issue?

DirkVoodoo

Holy crap, I'm seeing double!

4 re-posts!*

*Shameless Simpsons rip-off

bcmf

Very easy to get the hang of it.

Pawlie

Seaneh wrote: »

Here's a question for the campag heads.

I had the older sora on my last bike with the thumb shifter on the inside of the levers, it wrecked my head as it was impossible to control it from the drops so had to change hand position a lot to shift up/down.

Campag shifters have a similar thing shifter on their levers, how hard is it to operate those from the drops?

Genuinely interested because Im looking at a ribble 525 and think it would look the absolute mutts nuts with red and black centaur and red and black Khamsins on it but not totally sold on the above issue?

I use campag centuer and the thump action is great I love it and I have no issue using it from the drops,the lever is lower than the shimano,and I have shimano on my old winter giant bike,if that is the only issue yea have with buying campag dont fret man,they work perfect and are very easy from drops

Laundry_Hamper

Seaneh wrote: »

Here's a question for the campag heads.

I had the older sora on my last bike with the thumb shifter on the inside of the levers, it wrecked my head as it was impossible to control it from the drops so had to change hand position a lot to shift up/down.

Campag shifters have a similar thing shifter on their levers, how hard is it to operate those from the drops?

Genuinely interested because Im looking at a ribble 525 and think it would look the absolute mutts nuts with red and black centaur and red and black Khamsins on it but not totally sold on the above issue?

Head out to a bike shop and fondle some Campy stuff, sure.

foxer3640

Pawlie wrote: »

I use campag centuer and the thump action is great I love it and I have no issue using it from the drops,the lever is lower than the shimano,and I have shimano on my old winter giant bike,if that is the only issue yea have with buying campag dont fret man,they work perfect and are very easy from drops

Will have to beg to differ there Pawlie. The minute i can get a few quid together my campag stuff is going in the bin and I'm gonna stick on shimano. My experience so far is that the Tiagra while a bit clunky is miles ahead of the centaur for reliability and accurate shifting. To each their own though.

bcmf

foxer,
Campag is notorious for having the shift set up 100% perfect.
Everything from threading the cable thru the shifter to the lenght of the cable housing running into the rear mech.
HOWEVER
once its set up properly a very minute adjusting of the cable when bedded in is all that is needed.
It should run clean as whistle.
If you do decide to bin it when you get Sh itmano will ya let me know where your bins are.
Cheers

DirkVoodoo

Not to mention the fact Campagnolo seem to have ripped out the chapter of "standardization" from their copy of "the history of the industrial revolution". Not only do they change their own standards on a whim, but not following Shimano and Sram on making standard freehub designs really grinds my gears, so to speak.

bcmf

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Not to mention the fact Campagnolo seem to have ripped out the chapter of "standardization" from their copy of "the history of the industrial revolution". Not only do they change their own standards on a whim, but not following Shimano and Sram on making standard freehub designs really grinds my gears, so to speak.

But why be the same when you can be different and sexier.

letape

foxer3640 wrote: »

Will have to beg to differ there Pawlie. The minute i can get a few quid together my campag stuff is going in the bin and I'm gonna stick on shimano. My experience so far is that the Tiagra while a bit clunky is miles ahead of the centaur for reliability and accurate shifting. To each their own though.

Foxer - my experience of campag is that it should run faultlessly. If you live near Greystones or Bray I'd be happy to take a look at it for you and I'm pretty sure I'd have it working properly.

letape

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Not to mention the fact Campagnolo seem to have ripped out the chapter of "standardization" from their copy of "the history of the industrial revolution". Not only do they change their own standards on a whim, but not following Shimano and Sram on making standard freehub designs really grinds my gears, so to speak.

Why should they follow Shimano or SRAM, when they were first! - first with 10 speed and 11. Shimano choose a different 11 speed freehub spec when they could have followed Campagnolo and made it much easier for the consumer.

Casati

bcmf wrote: »

Very easy to get the hang of it.

Its a good design, v easy to use in the drops, button is better positioned and better shaped versus Sora

Casati

Laundry_Hamper wrote: »

Any chance the ends of the cable outers weren't clipped very cleanly? Does the cable slide within them without any resistance?

This would explain things- I've noticed Campag gear outers often close in when cutting the cable and have to be widened with with a needle

DirkVoodoo

letape wrote: »

Why should they follow Shimano or SRAM, when they were first! - first with 10 speed and 11. Shimano choose a different 11 speed freehub spec when they could have followed Campagnolo and made it much easier for the consumer.

Generally the smallest follows the biggest. I'm not sure what you mean about the 10 versus 11 speed, I don't know much about the new Dura Ace and compatibility with older 10 speed hubs and what conversion is needed, but the spline patterns look more or less the same.

Anyway, that's before you even get to the real annoyances: ultra-torque versus power torque, deliberately nerfing your lower end groupsets with power-shift, over-priced tools when simpler solutions exist (tried taking a power torque crank off yet?), 11 speed chain tools when 3rd party makers have cheap and reliable alternatives...I could possibly go on.

Oh yes, EPS...price of spares, no external harness conversion for older frames, brain is part of the battery so both exposed to elements if battery charging cover left open and makes seatpost solutions impossible...at least they followed Shimano's wiring standard there.

bcmf

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

.... the real annoyances: ultra-torque versus power torque, deliberately nerfing your lower end groupsets with power-shift, over-priced tools when simpler solutions exist (tried taking a power torque crank off yet?), 11 speed chain tools when 3rd party makers have cheap and reliable alternatives...I could possibly go on.

Have to agree with The Voodoo man.
The Power Torque thing is utter nonesense.
The dumbing down of the new lower end shifters is ,IMO, forcing up the price of the decent 2009 and older 10sp shifters.

DirkVoodoo

bcmf wrote: »

Have to agree with The Voodoo man.
The Power Torque thing is utter nonesense.
The dumbing down of the new lower end shifters is ,IMO, forcing up the price of the decent 2009 and older 10sp shifters.

I have to apologise to Letape and yourself, I'm currently hating Campag at the moment. Tempted by EPS but it would mean a new frame whereas Di2 would not, and now a potential purchase is being mucked up because 90% of the world rides Shimano/SRAM and I chose the 10%...

bcmf

well look.
Take off your Campy stuff and go and buy the U2i or D2i (or whatever its called).
Put all your ugly Campy stuff in a box and I will take it away from you. And I wont even charge you for the service.
Its a win - win.

happytramp

foxer3640 wrote: »

My experience so far is that the Tiagra while a bit clunky is miles ahead of the centaur for reliability and accurate shifting. To each their own though.

Yeah, you've almost certainly not got it set up correctly if that's the case.

doozerie

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean about the 10 versus 11 speed, I don't know much about the new Dura Ace and compatibility with older 10 speed hubs and what conversion is needed, but the spline patterns look more or less the same.

It was a few months back now, but when I last looked up info on the new Shimano 11 speed it seemed like the 11sp cassette is wider (by 2mm) than the 10 speed cassette. The speculation at the time was that whether a Shimano 11sp cassette would work on an existing 10sp freehub was uncertain, probably will work for some probably won't work for others. Perhaps the situation is more clear at this stage though, I've not checked, but based on the info available at the time there could be quite a few people with Shimano 10sp wheelsets complaining about Shimano when looking to upgrade to 11sp. That's not to defend some of the decisions that Campagnolo have made down through the years but Shimano aren't immune from annoying their fans either.

Interestingly, I also read speculation at the time that a Shimano 11sp cassette would work with Campag 11sp, if you choose your chain carefully (can't recall the details offhand), meaning that Shimano compatible wheels could be used interchangeably between the two brands. Again, maybe it is clearer by now whether that is really likely.

gfk_velo

Hi Foxer -

The Centaur shift problem is probably a combination of two or three things.

The equipment based questions (as if you get this wrong, the rest is a waste of time checking) are:

1. Are you sure its all 2010 Centaur, and if it is, is it an UltraShift lever or a PowerShift lever?
2. Is the rear gear new shape or old shape?

The likely areas around the levers you need to think about are that if you have an UltraShift lever with either old-shape or new-shape rear derailleur, if it's old shape you need to check the spring type, and if it is new shape the UltraShift 10 levers are not compatible anyway.

If it's the old shape RD, look between the plates of the parallelogram and you'll see the return spring. The free end is a curve that sits against the back of the rearmost parallelogram plate. If the curve is a 3/4 circle, as opposed to a half-circle and you have an UltraShift lever, the spring is not strong enough to drive the internals of the UltraShift lever and you will either get a sluggish upshift (or sticking as you describe) and a good downshift, or vice versa. In this case, replacing the levers with PowerShift will fix the problem.

If it's a new shape RD, you need PowerShift levers - these Veloce & Centaur RDs were never designed to work with UltraShift.

If you are sure that you have compatible levers and RD:
1. Check the rear hanger is correctly aligned - don't assume that just because it is a new one that it will be - often they aren't. This may be a job for your LBS but it does need to be reasonably accurate (as with any manufacturer's system) so if the mechanic starts laying about it with an adjustable spanner, not the proper alignment tool, grab your bike and run.
2. A common cause of the problem that you have is that when threading the inner cable through the cable guide at the top of the lever, you have introduced a kink. It's very easy to do. The best way around that is to pass the cable up through the first hole, choose in front of the bar or behind the bar routing (in front actually gives the best shift) then use a fine-tipped screwdriver to hold the cable down as you pass it into the second loop of the yello Y-shaped cable guide - dont try and poke the end in and pull it through - that's what causes kinks.
3. Another common cause is dirt or wear on the BB cable guides. Energy drink hardened onto the guides will increase friction a lot. Make sure that the cable hasn't eroded a slot in the guides. On older bikes, this can be an issue. Make sure that they are Campag guides and that they conform accurately to the curve of the BB shell, and are fixed down tight.
4. Check the cable system as others have commented above. There is a test we do in the main workshops here, as follows:
>>before we attach the cable to the RD for adjustment, we leave a small "tail" hanging out of the bottom of the lever. >>We disconnect the chain so that the RD can operate completely free of anything that will impede movement, and take out the rear wheel.
>>We attach the free end of the gear cable to the RD. We hang a 0.75kg weight on the nipple end of the cable and manually push the RD towards the low gear, so lowering the weight attached under the lever.
>>When you let the RD go, the spring in the RD should be sufficient to pull the cable back through, so lifting the weight. If it doesn't, there is friction in the cable system somewhere.
5. Check the position of the "H" screw that sets the distance from top jockey to largest sprocket - if this is unscrewed too far, you can get an issue with poor shift, the same as if the "B" Screw on Shimano or SRAM is mis-adjusted.

If you get really stuck, please PM me and we'll see if we can sort you out off-board. The reason for that is that we might have to get you to send us the RD and lever and I'm not allowed to be commercial on here - suffice to say though, I am head tech at one of Campag's UK Service Centres.

gfk_velo

gfk_velo

Hi Doozerie

Shimano 11 cassettes don't fit on Shimano 10 bodies - you need the new 11 body.

High and low sprockets have the same overall spacing on a Shimano 11 body as they do on a Campag 11 body but the sprocket-to-sprocket spacing differs slightly as Shimano sprockets are evenly spaced across their width, wheras Campag sprockets are not - the spacing also varies on Campag cassettes according to the size of the top cog - the inter-sprocket spacing of the 13, 14 and 15 is different on a 13-up compared to the spacing of the 12-13-14 on a 12-up, which is different again to the spacing on the 11-12-13 on an 11 up. There is also a difference in Campag spacing between sprockets 5 and 6 compared to the others.

This is because of two different approaches to the design of the rear gear geometry compared to the cable recovery in the lever and the angle the chain approaches the sprockets at - more acute at either end of the cassette, less so in the middle - plus changing the spacing at the "high" end of the cassette facilitates a better shift under pressure with Campag's RD design.

SRAM do it a different way to either Shimano or Campag.

This is at least part of the reason why all equipment manufacturers follow the mantra of "use a full system" - and that includes the chain.

I see lots of systems from all the main manufacturers and I see a lot of lash-ups where "alternatives" have been used and they never work as well as a correctly adjusted, all original parts system, regardless of who made it. The days of mix and match really went out with 8 speed, I am afraid ...

foxer3640

gfk_velo wrote: »

Hi Foxer -

The Centaur shift problem is probably a combination of two or three things.

The equipment based questions (as if you get this wrong, the rest is a waste of time checking) are:

1. Are you sure its all 2010 Centaur, and if it is, is it an UltraShift lever or a PowerShift lever?
2. Is the rear gear new shape or old shape?

The likely areas around the levers you need to think about are that if you have an UltraShift lever with either old-shape or new-shape rear derailleur, if it's old shape you need to check the spring type, and if it is new shape the UltraShift 10 levers are not compatible anyway.

If it's the old shape RD, look between the plates of the parallelogram and you'll see the return spring. The free end is a curve that sits against the back of the rearmost parallelogram plate. If the curve is a 3/4 circle, as opposed to a half-circle and you have an UltraShift lever, the spring is not strong enough to drive the internals of the UltraShift lever and you will either get a sluggish upshift (or sticking as you describe) and a good downshift, or vice versa. In this case, replacing the levers with PowerShift will fix the problem.

If it's a new shape RD, you need PowerShift levers - these Veloce & Centaur RDs were never designed to work with UltraShift.

If you are sure that you have compatible levers and RD:
1. Check the rear hanger is correctly aligned - don't assume that just because it is a new one that it will be - often they aren't. This may be a job for your LBS but it does need to be reasonably accurate (as with any manufacturer's system) so if the mechanic starts laying about it with an adjustable spanner, not the proper alignment tool, grab your bike and run.
2. A common cause of the problem that you have is that when threading the inner cable through the cable guide at the top of the lever, you have introduced a kink. It's very easy to do. The best way around that is to pass the cable up through the first hole, choose in front of the bar or behind the bar routing (in front actually gives the best shift) then use a fine-tipped screwdriver to hold the cable down as you pass it into the second loop of the yello Y-shaped cable guide - dont try and poke the end in and pull it through - that's what causes kinks.
3. Another common cause is dirt or wear on the BB cable guides. Energy drink hardened onto the guides will increase friction a lot. Make sure that the cable hasn't eroded a slot in the guides. On older bikes, this can be an issue. Make sure that they are Campag guides and that they conform accurately to the curve of the BB shell, and are fixed down tight.
4. Check the cable system as others have commented above. There is a test we do in the main workshops here, as follows:
>>before we attach the cable to the RD for adjustment, we leave a small "tail" hanging out of the bottom of the lever. >>We disconnect the chain so that the RD can operate completely free of anything that will impede movement, and take out the rear wheel.
>>We attach the free end of the gear cable to the RD. We hang a 0.75kg weight on the nipple end of the cable and manually push the RD towards the low gear, so lowering the weight attached under the lever.
>>When you let the RD go, the spring in the RD should be sufficient to pull the cable back through, so lifting the weight. If it doesn't, there is friction in the cable system somewhere.
5. Check the position of the "H" screw that sets the distance from top jockey to largest sprocket - if this is unscrewed too far, you can get an issue with poor shift, the same as if the "B" Screw on Shimano or SRAM is mis-adjusted.

If you get really stuck, please PM me and we'll see if we can sort you out off-board. The reason for that is that we might have to get you to send us the RD and lever and I'm not allowed to be commercial on here - suffice to say though, I am head tech at one of Campag's UK Service Centres.

gfk_velo

Thanks for your advice you know your stuff. I sprayed oil into the shifting mechanism before i went to bed last night and it seems to have helped. Thanks to everyone else for their advice also, i was at my wits end yesterday. gonna give it a try later and see how i get on.

happytramp

gfk_velo wrote: »

Hi Foxer -
suffice to say though, I am head tech at one of Campag's UK Service Centres.

gfk_velo

Well that explains it. About half way down your post I was really starting to wonder how any 'normal' person could know that much about campagnolo shifting diagnosis

fondriest

Hey Foxer ,

Just remove the shifter and leave it in a barrel of ep90 gear oil over night then cover it in axle grease for a week finally drag it behind an Isuzu trooper for a mile and the bashing about will free up the mechanism , then refit it to the cervelo and Bobs your mothers brother .

doozerie

@gfk_velo, Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of the irregular spacing on Campag cassettes and that's very useful to know. I've not removed and re-fitted any of my Campag cassettes for a while and I suspect in that time I've become a bit complacent about ensuring that I put spacers back into the same positions, so your information will help ensure that I avoid future problems.

A purely academic question this, but would a Shimano 11sp cassette likely function at all with a Campag 11p drivetrain? I initially wondered about the implications of this in the context of racing where someone riding Campag might possibly be handed a Shimano wheel following a mechanical - could they rejoin the race or would their gearing just be totally unreliable. It could be good for Campag sales if people felt that their investment in Campag groupsets wouldn't leave them stranded (in a race) in that scenario.

foxer3640

fondriest wrote: »

Hey Foxer ,

Just remove the shifter and leave it in a barrel of ep90 gear oil over night then cover it in axle grease for a week finally drag it behind an Isuzu trooper for a mile and the bashing about will free up the mechanism , then refit it to the cervelo and Bobs your mothers brother .

You know me too well whoever you are

gfk_velo

doozerie wrote: »

@gfk_velo, Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of the irregular spacing on Campag cassettes and that's very useful to know. I've not removed and re-fitted any of my Campag cassettes for a while and I suspect in that time I've become a bit complacent about ensuring that I put spacers back into the same positions, so your information will help ensure that I avoid future problems.

A purely academic question this, but would a Shimano 11sp cassette likely function at all with a Campag 11p drivetrain? I initially wondered about the implications of this in the context of racing where someone riding Campag might possibly be handed a Shimano wheel following a mechanical - could they rejoin the race or would their gearing just be totally unreliable. It could be good for Campag sales if people felt that their investment in Campag groupsets wouldn't leave them stranded (in a race) in that scenario.

AFAIK, there will be no real problem running a Shimano cassette short-term in a Campag system ... it won't index perfectly, but service wheels seldom do in any case - you'll certainly be able to finish though, and as I understand it from the tech guys, top and bottom sprocket should be in very similar, if not the same positions relative to the dropout (well, on a Campag or Fulcrum wheel they'll be in the same place, other maker's wheels may not have the same cassette body to lock-nut dimension of course), so you should be able to access all the gears.