Short prison sentences? Blame Ivana Bacik!!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zulu wrote: »

Keeping unproductive people locked up is expensive - no argument here, but if they were productive... Perhaps they could pay for their own penal sentence? (That would be more in line with what I'm thinking.) Then any surplus profit (if it existed) could be used for funding rehabilitation or victim services.

Sell it to me.

How much is it going to cost to pay prison wardens to look after these guys per year (because they're still going to need round-the-clock supervision)? And how much can we expect said prisoners to earn in your scenario? Even roughly?

Grayson

Zulu wrote: »

Keeping unproductive people locked up is expensive - no argument here, but if they were productive... Perhaps they could pay for their own penal sentence? (That would be more in line with what I'm thinking.) Then any surplus profit (if it existed) could be used for funding rehabilitation or victim services.

Considering it costs 60k a year to house them, what job do you want them to be doing 7am-7pm? manager in the HSC? Resteraunt owner?

In the US where they do this sort of program it's not just lisence plates they make. they make everything from furniture to body armour. They get pretty much no money for it and companies get huge discounts when they use it. They are effect endentured slaves.

Zulu wrote: »

Nope, thats a straw-man. I wouldn't expect 100% success, but frankly we don't appear to be even close to 30% (which is a fail with no room for pass-by-compensation). And we aren't committed to the programme wholeheartedly (not investing sufficient funding), so what I'm saying is: either do it seriously, or don't do it at all. And seeing as we aren't going to pony up to do it seriously it only leaves one option...

What makes you say that? At this point there are two options. You seem to opt for just not bothering.

But it would appear that you don't really care or haven't put much thought into this.

Zulu

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Sell it to me.

Hard sale to a closed mind, seems a little pointless; haven't you already made up your mind?

How much is it going to cost to pay prison wardens

Same amount it's currently costing. So no cost additional cost to the exchequer there.

And how much can we expect said prisoners to earn in your scenario? Even roughly?

I've no idea, I haven't conducted a study into the subject. In fact, I'm not aware of any studies into slave/forced labour. But, I would have thought it was a given that it'd be cheaper than the current cost (where there is zero productivity). Surely we can accept that having a prisoner produce something and selling that can create some return?

Grayson wrote: »

Considering it costs 60k a year to house them, what job do you want them to be doing 7am-7pm? manager in the HSC? Resteraunt owner?

Yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

In the US where they do this sort of program it's not just license plates they make. they make everything from furniture to body armour. They get pretty much no money for it and companies get huge discounts when they use it. They are effect endentured slaves.

So they are not health service managers and restaurant owners? Interesting, then that you'd suggest those two roles for Irish prisoners.

What makes you say that?

Are you seriously suggesting that in this current economic climate, citizens would be happy to pay more tax for the rehabilitation of prisoners? Really?? That is your position???

At this point there are two options. You seem to opt for just not bothering.
But it would appear that you don't really care or haven't put much thought into this.

You are right, I don't really care for the half arsed lip service of rehabilitation that we appear to be running. And I really don't care about investing heavily into rehabilitation now that we are broke.

Of course feel free to dismiss my post as not thought out, and persist in making more farcical comments. It really demonstrates your deep innate understanding of the subject, and highlights my ignorance perfectly. I reckon after 123 posts any other readers will be won over by this tactic.

conorhal

daithi1970 wrote: »

Prison sentences should be reserved for those found guilty of crimes against the person for the most part..what is the point of jailing someone for non payment of fines, or for those convicted of non violent public order offences? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of young fellas going in to jails and re-emerging as hardened criminals, and how does that benefit society?
By all means lock up the murderers,rapists and child abusers (and those convicted of child porn possession,who are treated far too leniently IMO) but there have to be alternative means of dealing with those convicted of non=violent crimes without locking them up.

daithi

People aren't really going to jail for failing to pay their TV license and coming out as hardened criminals though.

You're essentially repeating Bacik's simplistic view that has no relation to the facts.

Very few people receive a committal sentence for a fine, those that do often deliberately seek the sentence because it abrogates the fine, and they know that they can avoid paying a substantial fine by having to endure little more then the inconvenience of having to turn up with an appointment at a prison, signing in, and then waiting about for an hour to be discharged out on early release, much handier then having a fine taken out of your social welfare or garnished from your wages. Most committed for non payment of fines are just hard necks that don't want to pay and aren’t really concerned about a conviction.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zulu wrote: »

Hard sale to a closed mind, seems a little pointless; haven't you already made up your mind?

In other words, no, you haven't considered costs. Or you have some brilliant plan involving getting prison officers to work for less than the inmates?

Zulu

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In other words, no, you haven't considered costs. Or you have some brilliant plan involving getting prison officers to work for less than the inmates?

You seem to have overlooked my point about it being no additional cost to the exchequer. Either that or you don't believe prison officers are paid today?

You are aware that, today, we pay prison officers right? Can you agree (in principle) that if we have prisoners producing something (say electricity by cycling a bike in their cell - for example) that the current cost of employing prison officers will not change?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zulu wrote: »

You seem to have overlooked my point about it being no additional cost to the exchequer. Either that or you don't believe prison officers are paid today?

You are aware that, today, we pay prison officers right? Can you agree (in principle) that if we have prisoners producing something (say electricity by cycling a bike in their cell - for example) that the current cost of employing prison officers will not change?

It's not a case of me actually missing the point, it's a case of you not making it!

You never pointed out what way earnings were to be made (even when directly questioned by a different poster), and, considering cleaning grafitti and outdoor work was being discussed, it was a fair assumption to make that this is what you meant.

Zulu

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's not a case of me actually missing the point, it's a case of you not making it!

You never pointed out what way earnings were to be made (even when directly questioned by a different poster)...

Apologies, I thought physical labour was obvious. Now we've cleared that up, have I addressed your queries? (I note you haven't answered any of the questions I put to you in my last 3 posts, so I'm guessing I have.)

Nodin

Zulu wrote: »

Hard sale to (......) won over by this tactic.

What happens to the workers whose jobs will be performed by prison labour?

studiorat

Robroy36 wrote: »

It would keep the scum off the streets.

As for cuts - zero entertainment. No confectionary. Porridge for two meals of the day. Less heating.

LOL! Deport them to Australia as well!

Zulu

Nodin wrote: »

What happens to the workers whose jobs will be performed by prison labour?

Electricity creation? The main competition here would be peat, wind and water. I don't think they'll object.

...but taking your point that we now have an electricity supplier with an advantage in the marketplace (ie little cost of production). Well, power supply in this country isn't wholly "free market" currently, so we could come up with some limiting factors. But on the whole, I don't see man-produced electricity competing against the alternatives, and this surplus could be restricted to the providers with an agreed rate, so in effect preventing competition.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zulu wrote: »

Apologies, I thought physical labour was obvious. Now we've cleared that up, have I addressed your queries? (I note you haven't answered any of the questions I put to you in my last 3 posts, so I'm guessing I have.)

Strictly speaking, there's not really much point, as we were at a misunderstanding, but ask again and I'll answer.

I have no problem with inmates earning their way as long as it's not putting someone else out of a job, private organisations are not profiteering, and basic human rights are not infringed.

The only question I have, going back and slightly back on topic, was how do you expect criminals with no skills, no rahabilitation and a criminal record to fucntion in society upon release (you can't keep everyone locked up for ever)?

VinLieger

They should be out digging ditches etc bring back manual labour chain gangs.

Zulu

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Strictly speaking, there's not really much point, as we were at a misunderstanding, but ask again and I'll answer.

Fair enough, lets leave the misunderstandings where they were

I have no problem with inmates earning their way as long as it's not putting someone else out of a job, private organisations are not profiteering, and basic human rights are not infringed.

All but the last we are in agreement. I don't see how we can force labour without infringing on rights, but I guess it's the "force" part where we differ.

The only question I have, going back and slightly back on topic, was how do you expect criminals with no skills, no rahabilitation and a criminal record to fucntion in society upon release (you can't keep everyone locked up for ever)?

Good question; good point. Maybe provide free part time education when they aren't busy working. Successful grades here could be leveraged to lower the amount of physical labour in favour of futher education. - just spitballing here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zulu wrote: »

Fair enough, lets leave the misunderstandings where they were

All but the last we are in agreement. I don't see how we can force labour without infringing on rights, but I guess it's the "force" part where we differ.

As in, not treat them like slaves, as some have suggested in this thread.

Good question; good point. Maybe provide free part time education when they aren't busy working. Successful grades here could be leveraged to lower the amount of physical labour in favour of futher education. - just spitballing here.

You see that, in itself, would qualify as rehabillitation of a sort.

VinLieger

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

As in, not treat them like slaves, as some have suggested in this thread.

Why not? They have a debt to pay to society, in alot of other countries prisoners are made work while in prison, laundry, cooking etc to my knowledge that does not occur here.
Committing a crime is a choice therfore they are choosing to give up certain rights as well.
Also being forced to work might tire them out and give prison guards an easier time of it

Nodin

Zulu wrote: »

Electricity creation? The main competition here would be peat, wind and water. I don't think they'll object.

...but taking your point that we now have an electricity supplier with an advantage in the marketplace (ie little cost of production). Well, power supply in this country isn't wholly "free market" currently, so we could come up with some limiting factors. But on the whole, I don't see man-produced electricity competing against the alternatives, and this surplus could be restricted to the providers with an agreed rate, so in effect preventing competition.

So essentially you want them engaged in unproductive and ineffecient work. Hmmmm.

Zulu

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

As in, not treat them like slaves, as some have suggested in this thread.

Well if it's forced work, they are slaves - aren't they? I'm struggling to see the difference.

You see that, in itself, would qualify as rehabillitation of a sort.

Yeah, I'm not anti-rehabilitation. I'd be all for rehabilitation for every prisoner if we could afford it, but we can't. So "the real world" steps in the way. I'm anti "lipservice rehabilitation" to placate some people and to & appear more compassionate.

Nodin wrote: »

So essentially you want them engaged in unproductive and ineffecient work. Hmmmm.

Well, it's not unproductive if they are producing something. Ineffecient - perhaps, it is a punishment after all.

Nodin

Zulu wrote: »

....

Well, it's not unproductive if they are producing something. Ineffecient - perhaps, it is a punishment after all.

So - pointless labour as a form of punishment. A sort of torture.

You know its been tried before?

Zulu

Nodin wrote: »

So - pointless labour as a form of punishment. A sort of torture.

It's not "pointless" if it's producing something.

"Pointless; unproductive; inefficient...", look label it up any other way you want, but bear in mind something is being produced which is helping to offset the cost of the prisoner. You seem eager to use certain words, why? To what end??

You know its been tried before?

Here? Really?? ...so???

Grayson

Zulu wrote: »

Hard sale to a closed mind, seems a little pointless; haven't you already made up your mind?

Same amount it's currently costing. So no cost additional cost to the exchequer there.
I've no idea, I haven't conducted a study into the subject. In fact, I'm not aware of any studies into slave/forced labour. But, I would have thought it was a given that it'd be cheaper than the current cost (where there is zero productivity). Surely we can accept that having a prisoner produce something and selling that can create some return?

Yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

So they are not health service managers and restaurant owners? Interesting, then that you'd suggest those two roles for Irish prisoners.

Are you seriously suggesting that in this current economic climate, citizens would be happy to pay more tax for the rehabilitation of prisoners? Really?? That is your position???

You are right, I don't really care for the half arsed lip service of rehabilitation that we appear to be running. And I really don't care about investing heavily into rehabilitation now that we are broke.

Of course feel free to dismiss my post as not thought out, and persist in making more farcical comments. It really demonstrates your deep innate understanding of the subject, and highlights my ignorance perfectly. I reckon after 123 posts any other readers will be won over by this tactic.

My point is that if if costs so much to house them, then any saving by making them work will be minimal. Rehabilitation seems to work a lot better if it's done properly. But if it isn't it just means that criminals will be released and will commit crimes again. Of course, you seem to want that which is strange.
Now, i know you're going to break this up into about 20 separate quotes to try and fisk it to death. You'll also try to make an off the cuff remark to try and suggest that I'm an idiot, therefore none of my posts have any merit. Or you could try and actually show any place where your suggestions have actually worked. Like the US where incarceration and making them work like slaves hasn't made a dent in the number of people reoffending.

opti0nal

Zulu wrote: »

I'd be all for rehabilitation for every prisoner if we could afford it, but we can't.

We can't afford not to.

charlemont

How the fúck can the OP blame Ivana Bacik for short prison sentences, Its one of the stupidest things I'v heard in ages.. OP Think before you type !!!

Nodin

Zulu wrote: »

It's not "pointless" if it's producing something.

"Pointless; unproductive; inefficient...", look label it up any other way you want, but bear in mind something is being produced which is helping to offset the cost of the prisoner.

If you're offsetting the cost of the prisoner you're probably putting somebody out of a job.

Zulu wrote: »

You seem eager to use certain words, why? To what end?????

Accuracy. Truth.

Zulu wrote: »

Here? Really?? ...so???

Walking a wheel, turning a crank that turned nothing, rock breaking. Popular for a lot of the 19th century. It acheived nothing.