Feminists sabotage yet another talk on men's equality

iptba

iptba wrote: »

This interview (and possibly other recent coverage relating to Hugo Schwyzer) is not good PR for male feminists!

Porn Professor Hugo Schwyzer Comes Clean About His Twitter Meltdown and Life as a Fraud

by Richard Abowitz Aug 12, 2013 1:10 PM EDT

He built a successful, if divisive, career as a ‘male feminist’ and porn advocate. Then his life fell apart—on Twitter. He talks to Richard Abowitz about what fueled his epic meltdown.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/12/porn-professor-hugo-schwyzer-comes-clean-about-his-twitter-meltdown-and-life-as-a-fraud.html

That one is directly from the horse's mouth, as it were.
This says similar things, but if said by somebody else:
"Is This What A Male Feminist’s Brain Looks Like?"
http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2013/08/is-this-what-a-male-feminists-brain-looks-like/

iptba

The Hugo Schwyzer story also lead to this piece http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/06/male-feminism-hugo-schwyzer?CMP=twt_gu by a man who many describe as being a feminist himself, which makes more general points:

In his New York magazine interview, Schwyzer made a particularly telling remark, one I suspect he would have swallowed back, had he had a clearer head. "If you look at the men who are writing about feminism, they toe the line very carefully. It's almost like they take their cues from the women around them."

I've interacted with him often enough to know that Schwyzer has a very dry sense of humour, so I suspect there was an element of ironic self-deprecation at play here, but either way he illustrates the key problem facing any high-profile, self-identifying male feminist. They absolutely must take their cues from the women around them, yield first in disputes and toe the line very carefully. The alternative to that was demonstrated, with customary perfection, by the Onion in a piece entitled "Man finally put in charge of struggling feminist movement".

He also says:

If men are concerned about the problems men face, not just the problems men cause, then the pews of the feminist cathedral are rarely the most comfortable place to sit.

The Corinthian

The Schwyzer fiasco does appear to support the rather cynical view than many have of male feminists or 'white knights' being so simply to please (to whatever end) women, rather than any genuine belief.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Ah yeah the glorious White Knight:

iptba

The Corinthian wrote: »

The Schwyzer fiasco does appear to support the rather cynical view than many have of male feminists or 'white knights' being so simply to please (to whatever end) women, rather than any genuine belief.

My guess for many, while it isn't the only factor, it may be a factor to encourage them to say such things or not change: positive reinforcement and all that.

Duckjob

.

iptba

Now for a meeting on Sept 27 that was planned a while back, a Canadian student group is suddenly being asked by the college to pay nearly 1000 Canadian dollars for the security fees due to the expected protests by feminists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmuSCjqG9ms

[The YouTube link doesn't seem to be appearing for me - I just get a big white space - so here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmuSCjqG9ms ]

http://equalitycanada.com/2013/09/20/supportgrothevent/

More links on this: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/university-of-toronto-fascists-attack-equal-rights/

Rev Hellfire

If anyone was still under the misguided impression that feminism was about equality, then the above should be awake-up call.

Its equality on their terms only and all dissent is to be silenced.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

Now for a meeting on Sept 27 that was planned a while back, a Canadian student group is suddenly being asked by the college to pay nearly 1000 Canadian dollars for the security fees due to the expected protests by feminists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmuSCjqG9ms

[The YouTube link doesn't seem to be appearing for me - I just get a big white space - so here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmuSCjqG9ms ]

http://equalitycanada.com/2013/09/20/supportgrothevent/

More links on this: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/university-of-toronto-fascists-attack-equal-rights/

The money was raised.

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/support-rallies-mens-centre-lecture-after-university-mandates-students-pay-high-security-1834185.htm
Canadian Association for Equality

September 24, 2013 11:24 ET

Support Rallies to "Men's Centre" Lecture After University Mandates Students Pay High Security Fee

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwired - Sept. 24, 2013) - The Canadian Association for Equality (CAFE) received overwhelming financial support after their affiliate group, the University of Toronto Men's Issues Awareness Society, was mandated by the University of Toronto administration to pay $964 for campus police or have their Friday event cancelled. At previous events rioters committed illegal acts including pulling fire alarms and blocking exit doors.

"The Miles Groth 'Men's Centre' lecture will proceed, thanks to support from the men and women who donated," said Malcolm Johnston, CAFE Spokesperson. "Rewarding law-breaking rioters by cancelling events will only lead to increased censorship and make U of T a more dangerous place."

"CAFE remains committed to campus-based men's issues outreach," said Johnston. "But while our message is making a difference, it's clear long term success requires a home where programs are not under threat. This situation makes the case perfectly for Men's Centres."

CAFE encourages concerned citizens to continue making financial contributions to the Campaign to Establish the Canadian Centre for Men and Families.

Contact Information

Canadian Association for Equality
Amber Taylor
416-479-0718
info@equalitycanada.com

um7y1h83ge06nx

Fair play to them.

That association for equality sounds like a really progressive organisation, be great if we could have something like that in this country, something that focuses on genuine equality and fairness .

padz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yk6s8FddVI

anti mra group at it again

B0jangles

Apparently CAFE is a cover-name for A Voice for Men operating in Canada; and I think most people would not be in agreeement with aVfM's founder Paul Elam in his general views:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

(According to Paul, women are begging to be raped btw )

Dude is a fúcking pervert who should be shunned by the rest of society)

DyldeBrill

jesus they all look god aweful

shower of clowns!

kiffer

B0jangles wrote: »

Apparently CAFE is a cover-name for A Voice for Men operating in Canada; and I think most people would not be in agreeement with aVfM's founder Paul Elam in his general views:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

(According to Paul, women are begging to be raped btw )

Dude is a fúcking pervert who should be shunned by the rest of society)

Well that escalated quickly...
Jesus.
If I was involved in any father's rights movement or similar I would take every possible step to distance myself from such a person.
Honestly I thought he was going to go a fairly different direction after the bit in block capitals... I'm not sure why.

YumCha

B0jangles wrote: »

Apparently CAFE is a cover-name for A Voice for Men operating in Canada; and I think most people would not be in agreeement with aVfM's founder Paul Elam in his general views:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/challenging-the-etiology-of-rape/

(According to Paul, women are begging to be raped btw )

Dude is a fúcking pervert who should be shunned by the rest of society)

Seems disturbingly consistent with the views of the speakers being protested against (this is not condoning the protestors btw).

Farrell is responsible for such gems as "Before we began calling it date rape ... we called it exciting" and a study on incest where he couldn't understand why daughters in father/daughter incest cases had a lower satisfaction rating than other groups (e.g. fathers in father/daughter, mothers in mother/son, son in mother/son etc.) and insinuated that the discrepancy must be down to them lying - as that could be the only possible explanation since everyone else enjoyed it so much. :rolleyes:

He then went onto to recount an anecdote from his "research" which involved a 15yo girl running up to her father and giving him a blowjob as proof of how 'positive' incest could be....

And Groth has been very outspoken about anti-date-rape talks given during college orientation, going as far as to blame them for declining numbers of male enrolment. I know that similar campaigns (e.g. Don't be that guy) are not held in high regard here, but the limited research so far on the effectiveness of those sorts of campaigns is promising.

I guess radical vocal fringes are a problem on both sides...

P.S. Reading back through the thread - I hope people know that the red-haired woman in the video is not Lindy West... They look nothing alike!

The Corinthian

YumCha wrote: »

Farrell is responsible for such gems as "Before we began calling it date rape ... we called it exciting" and a study on incest where he couldn't understand why daughters in father/daughter incest cases had a lower satisfaction rating than other groups (e.g. fathers in father/daughter, mothers in mother/son, son in mother/son etc.) and insinuated that the discrepancy must be down to them lying - as that could be the only possible explanation since everyone else enjoyed it so much. :rolleyes:

What he actually said in the first thing you quoted was:

If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said "no" to sex even "when they meant yes." In my own work with over 150,000 men and women - about half of whom are single - the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy's place "just to talk" but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they've recently said something like "That's far enough for now," even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his.

We have forgotten that before we called this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. Somehow, women's romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said "No". They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this "marry the rapist" theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women's most enduring romance novels. And it is Rhett Butler, carrying the kicking and screaming Scarlett O'Hara to bed, who is a hero to females - not to males - in Gone With the Wind (the best selling romance novel of all time - to women). It is important that a woman's "noes" be respected and her "yeses" be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal "yeses" (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal "noes" that the man not be put in jail for choosing the "yes" over the "no."

Doesn't exactly carry the same meaning as your little quote did, does it?

In the case of the incest accusation, what he said is taken even further out of context, and can be seen debunked here.

It generally helps, in the pursuit of truth mind you, that you try to correctly and in context quote someone when you do so. These Ferrall quotes have been around for a long time, carefully edited to produce straw man attacks against him.

I'll simply presume that you had never bothered to actually find out what he said, when you posted them here, or elsewhere, rather than it being an intentional attempt by you to mislead others.

YumCha

The Corinthian wrote: »

What he actually said in the first thing you quoted was:

If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said "no" to sex even "when they meant yes." In my own work with over 150,000 men and women - about half of whom are single - the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy's place "just to talk" but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they've recently said something like "That's far enough for now," even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his.

We have forgotten that before we called this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. Somehow, women's romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said "No". They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this "marry the rapist" theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women's most enduring romance novels. And it is Rhett Butler, carrying the kicking and screaming Scarlett O'Hara to bed, who is a hero to females - not to males - in Gone With the Wind (the best selling romance novel of all time - to women). It is important that a woman's "noes" be respected and her "yeses" be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal "yeses" (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal "noes" that the man not be put in jail for choosing the "yes" over the "no."

Doesn't exactly carry the same meaning as your little quote did, does it?

In the case of the incest accusation, what he said is taken even further out of context, and can be seen debunked here.

It generally helps, in the pursuit of truth mind you, that you try to correctly and in context quote someone when you do so. These Ferrall quotes have been around for a long time, carefully edited to produce straw man attacks against him.

I'll simply presume that you had never bothered to actually find out what he said, when you posted them here, or elsewhere, rather than it being an intentional attempt by you to mislead others.

If you think that the longer excerpt about date rape/fraud makes Farrell out to be better and not worse than my original quote, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one...

I'll admit that I haven't read Farrell's book from where the first quote comes from (however I did read that whole excerpt prior to posting), but I did read the original scanned interview regarding the incest study. Having read that and the article you claim 'debunks' these we'll have to agree to disagree there too.

The Corinthian

YumCha wrote: »

If you think that the longer excerpt about date rape/fraud makes Farrell out to be better and not worse than my original quote, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one...

The only way he would come out worse with the full quote, is if you believe that we're not allowed to ask certain questions - taboo!

I'll admit that I haven't read Farrell's book from where the first quote comes from (however I did read that whole excerpt prior to posting), but I did read the original scanned interview regarding the incest study. Having read that and the article you claim 'debunks' these we'll have to agree to disagree there too.

I've no doubt we would have to agree to disagree on these and many other topics, but I posted my rebuttal to correct the facts, other readers can make up their own minds based upon those and not some strawman propaganda.

GalwayGuy2

In fairness, I think he was just being an academic and speaking from the subjects point of view.

I must admit, before I read that article I thought he was just a random MRA that popped out of nowhere. I didn't hear any mention about his feminist work or the fact that he said those comments when he was a feminist.

The Corinthian

Ferrall was an active feminist until the mid-seventies, when he became disillusioned by the National Organization for Women's stance against the presumption of joint custody of children following divorces, which understandably he felt went completely against the principles of equality that feminism was supposed to embody.

As a result, he began to examine and deconstruct mens' role in society, as well as its role in relation to women and in his subsequent writings put forward a number of new theories that had largely gone ignored up until then.

Notable in this was the idea of female privilege; that while patriarchy was heavily biased in favour of men, it also afforded certain gender-based rights and privileges to women. Related to this was that men are the disposable sex; that our role is principally as provider and protector, and that we are expected to sacrifice ourselves (often literally) for the family to carry out this role.

Needless to say, this upset much of the feminist movement (although he has his fans there too), and it's not uncommon to have many of his views dismissed within those circles, because he dared to suggest that gender politics were not black and white, with men always being the advantaged oppressor and women being the disadvantaged oppressed.

Such is the antipathy he now engenders from, especially second+ wave, feminists, that it's not uncommon to come across attempts to discredit him using dubious means, as we saw above.

iptba

A man talks about how feminism prevented him from getting help, Tumblr feminists call him whiny, proving his point

http://batmanofidiots.tumblr.com/post/69747692789/bellatragedy-life-art-fitness

Mike747

I wonder how many of these feminists will end up as lonely old spinsters. I mean how could any man stand them?

iptba

Another Men's Issues talk, on March 28, that was sabotaged:
https://storify.com/The_Fulcrum/fulcrum-live-what-s-equality-got-to-do-with-it

---

ETA: I believe this video shows what happened, but haven't watched it myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOnuZsXRwTA

fuzzy dunlops cousin

iptba wrote: »

Another Men's Issues talk, on March 28, that was sabotaged:
https://storify.com/The_Fulcrum/fulcrum-live-what-s-equality-got-to-do-with-it

Canada again, it's funny that of all places these incidents are happening it's in a country thought of as polite and tolerant

Playboy

fuzzy dunlops cousin wrote: »

Canada again, it's funny that of all places these incidents are happening it's in a country thought of as polite and tolerant

The lunatics have taken over the asylum in Canada unfortunately.

donfers

Playboy wrote: »

The lunatics have taken over the asylum in Canada unfortunately.

some of the countries that vuew themselves as the most progressive/liberal etc. have gone so far to one side that they've come out the other side and act in exactly the same way as the right-wing fascists they profess to hate

Seriously?

I think organisation like Cafe are doing a great join highlighting mens rights and though the attempts made to silence them how toxic an idology feminism has become (at least in Canadian education).

I think people are starting to distance themselves from feminism as a result of the actions protrayed at these meetings which are increasing being noted upon in mainstream media (still not enough, but the ball is rolling).

iptba

Robyn Urback: If this is the new women’s movement, it’s no wonder girls don’t want to call themselves ‘feminists’

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/04/15/robyn-urback-if-this-is-the-new-womens-movement-its-no-wonder-girls-dont-want-to-call-themselves-feminists/

on what happened in the University of Ottawa (a few weeks ago now)

Mike747

iptba wrote: »

on what happened in the University of Ottawa (a few weeks ago now)

Feminists preventing a woman from expressing her viewpoint. Pretty funny.

Thing is, does anyone care about these nutjobs outside their own little circle jerk?

donfers

Mike747 wrote: »

Feminists preventing a woman from expressing her viewpoint. Pretty funny.

Thing is, does anyone care about these nutjobs outside their own little circle jerk?

moderate feminism should care as it really is the worst kind of PR they'll ever get and ensures that feminism will continue to be, at best an acquired taste, and at worst alienate both men and women and basically have a bad name everywhere outside of their little academia or online circle-jerks