Ikea for Cherrywood?

Cookie_Monster

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ikea-asks-council-to-rezone-land-for-second-city-store-29188707.html

Sounds like a great idea, some of the wasteland may actually get used instead of sitting there forever.
Given that the council plan is not too likely to happen any time soon and it will otherwise remain a barren no go zone for 5-10 years is there any reason not to allow for it? Suitable location, already and Industrial estate, right beside the M50 and M/N11 for transport, Luas and 145/7 for staff and to a lesser extent customers to commute by.

Eathrin

Is there really a need for a new town centre in Cherrywood?
It would make sense that they wouldn't want warehouses in the area if there was a need to develop a residential area but right now it's just wasteland asking to be commercially developed.

ted1

Just laughing at the article where it says it could act as a wind and noise buffer to the m50. Hardly a reason to grant permission.

Strange that they would want a second store so close to the first one and in much the same catchment area. You'd think some where like cashel would be a good place to get the limerick , cork market etc.

Fratton Fred

Cherrywood is perfect for an IKEA or a large hypermarket.

homer911

This is the SDZ referred to in the article. Can't really see it happening to be honest. One the RPT comes in, DLRCOCO wont be so desperate for the business rates, and changing the plan to permit this would have a detrimental impact on the plan as a whole. It would not support balanced development of the location which is what DLRCOCO is looking for

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/aboutus/councildepartments/planning/findit/cherrywoodstrategicdevelopmentzonesdz/

ted1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Cherrywood is perfect for an IKEA or a large hypermarket.

I would not agree, causing congestion at a major junction. Taking business away from local villages. Etc, etc. plenty of shopping centres within a ten minute drive. Ikea a 25 minute drive

Anyone

Another dirty big monstrous building to sit on top of that hill. Cant imagine anybody living in Cherrywood will be too happy about it.

Larbre34

homer911 wrote: »

This is the SDZ referred to in the article. Can't really see it happening to be honest. One the RPT comes in, DLRCOCO wont be so desperate for the business rates, and changing the plan to permit this would have a detrimental impact on the plan as a whole. It would not support balanced development of the location which is what DLRCOCO is looking for

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/aboutus/councildepartments/planning/findit/cherrywoodstrategicdevelopmentzonesdz/

Not so unfortunately. The Council's central funding is being reduced by the amount of the Household Charge/LPT collectable for that County, so the net gain is nothing and the exchequer money is kept by the Govt to reduce national debt or pay bondholders or whatever nonsense.

The SDZ is a 30 year framework, its not meant to appear overnight

The IKEA thing is a bad idea, yeah jobs are great and all that but the site up there at Cherrywood couldnt cope with massive traffic peaks, and the outlet in Ballymun is perfectly accessible for anyone in or near Dublin.

Why dont they build one in Limerick or someplace to serve Limerick, Galway, Cork and Waterford. The jobs would mean more down there

markpb

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why dont they build one in Limerick or someplace to serve Limerick, Galway, Cork and Waterford. The jobs would mean more down there

Because IKEA aren't FAS?

They're in business to sell stuff, not hire people. If they want to build in Cherrywood, they obviously think they'll sell more there than in a regional town/city.

Slutmonkey57b

Very glad I don't live up there now. The waste ground isn't great, but having all that open space is much better for dog walking, kids playing etc than having a bloody great Ikea and a "New village" with associated traffic.

There will be more traffic noise as a result of Ikea and the wind comes from the north/south anyway not off the motorway.

Tabnabs

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Very glad I don't live up there now. The waste ground isn't great, but having all that open space is much better for dog walking, kids playing etc than having a bloody great Ikea and a "New village" with associated traffic.

There will be more traffic noise as a result of Ikea and the wind comes from the north/south anyway not off the motorway.

Not sure kids playing on a waste ground is a valid argument for keeping Ikea away. Plus the prevailing wind is westerly so it does come across the motorway and down to the coast.

I pass this area almost daily and the land is vast. It could fit in pretty well with some careful planning. Having visited the Ballymum site many times, I've yet to experience any traffic delays. In fact, Carrickmines would be far worse for traffic.

As for the competition, what big furniture shops are in the area already? Harvey Norman, any more?

Slutmonkey57b

Tabnabs wrote: »

Not sure kids playing on a waste ground is a valid argument for keeping Ikea away. Plus the prevailing wind is westerly so it does come across the motorway and down to the coast.

I pass this area almost daily and the land is vast. It could fit in pretty well with some careful planning. Having visited the Ballymum site many times, I've yet to experience any traffic delays. In fact, Carrickmines would be far worse for traffic.

As for the competition, what big furniture shops are in the area already? Harvey Norman, any more?

Ballymun is a much bigger exit runoff than cherrywood with more space for traffic to disappear into.

As for the wind, if it was coming off the motorway I'd have had it blowing in my windows. The localised weather is that the wind screams along the luas line, and on the opposite side from the n11.

The Ikea site itself is a building site but there's a lot of greenfield and wooded area to walk around, where the council intends to build thousands of houses in the midst of a property downturn and recession.

uch

Tabnabs wrote: »

Not sure kids playing on a waste ground is a valid argument for keeping Ikea away. Plus the prevailing wind is westerly so it does come across the motorway and down to the coast.

I pass this area almost daily and the land is vast. It could fit in pretty well with some careful planning. Having visited the Ballymum site many times, I've yet to experience any traffic delays. In fact, Carrickmines would be far worse for traffic.

As for the competition, what big furniture shops are in the area already? Harvey Norman, any more?

I agree with everything Tabnabs says and with the Jobs that would be created it's a win-win as far as I can see, and I live pretty close.

Fratton Fred

The only time that junction is congested is rush hour and an Ikea wouldn't affect that in the slightest.

There is literally acres and acres of space to build on up there, with the logical place for houses being N11 side of the Luas and commercial/retail the other.

Slutmonkey57b

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The only time that junction is congested is rush hour and an Ikea wouldn't affect that in the slightest.

There is literally acres and acres of space to build on up there, with the logical place for houses being N11 side of the Luas and commercial/retail the other.

Why is it logical to build houses in the midst of massive oversupply?

Fratton Fred

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why is it logical to build houses in the midst of massive oversupply?

As I understand it, that area is marked for residential and commercial use ny the council, but when, who knows. However, I believe there is a shortage of houses in DLR thanks to people only building apartments during the boom.

irishguy

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why is it logical to build houses in the midst of massive oversupply?

Because its a 30 year plan

ted1

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why is it logical to build houses in the midst of massive oversupply?

There is a huge under supply of houses in south Dublin, plenty of apartments but no houses for the 20 and 30 something's that brought apartments to get on the ladder and are now bringing up kids in apartments.

coylemj

I think DLR co co is maybe conscious of the risk to Dundrum SC if IKEA move into Cherrywood because it will then be difficult to refuse other large retailers who want to open stores in Cherrywood and benefit from the 'halo effect' of having an IKEA on their doorstep. The place then becomes one big US style mall.

DLR co co went out of their way to facilitate the creation of Dundrum SC as they discovered that a huge proportion of their citizens' spend was outside the co co area because the Square in Tallaght, Blanchardstown SC and Liffey Valley SC were now accessible with the improved roads, including the M50. I can understand their resistance to plans that threaten to pull people away to an out of town mega shopping mall in Cherrywood.

_Kaiser_

coylemj wrote: »

I think DLR co co is maybe conscious of the risk to Dundrum SC if IKEA move into Cherrywood because it will then be difficult to refuse other large retailers who want to open stores in Cherrywood and benefit from the 'halo effect' of having an IKEA on their doorstep. The place then becomes one big US style mall.

DLR co co went out of their way to facilitate the creation of Dundrum SC as they discovered that a huge proportion of their citizens' spend was outside the co co area because the Square in Tallaght, Blanchardstown SC and Liffey Valley SC were now accessible with the improved roads, including the M50. I can understand their resistance to plans that threaten to pull people away to an out of town mega shopping mall in Cherrywood.

As an aside I have to say I can't stand Dundrum SC. It's like they tried to take Blanch SC and shove it into an area a third the size. I have been there maybe 3 times since I moved out this way and the traffic is a disaster, the place is a mess to get in/out of, and having to pay for the parking doesn't sit well with me.

Plus, maybe it's me but the place seems full of nothing.. all celtic tiger era shops and very little else to warrant putting up with the above. The Beacon in Sandyford is even worse.

Far better to spend the 10/20 mins on the M50 and go to Liffey Valley or Blanch IMO, but an IKEA would be useful.

Slutmonkey57b

ted1 wrote: »

There is a huge under supply of houses in south Dublin, plenty of apartments but no houses for the 20 and 30 something's that brought apartments to get on the ladder and are now bringing up kids in apartments.

These would be the same people who are deepest in the property hole and most likely to already be in arrears/defaulting on their mortgages then...?

ted1

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

These would be the same people who are deepest in the property hole and most likely to already be in arrears/defaulting on their mortgages then...?

Them and their peers, however in two years they'll have made it possible to for people to move either by mortgage write down or allowing mortgage to transfer.

Tabnabs

coylemj wrote: »

I think DLR co co is maybe conscious of the risk to Dundrum SC if IKEA move into Cherrywood because it will then be difficult to refuse other large retailers who want to open stores in Cherrywood and benefit from the 'halo effect' of having an IKEA on their doorstep. The place then becomes one big US style mall.

But this hasn't been a problem in the Ballymun site. IKEA is the sole mega-size retailer there and there's plenty of land around it for other retailers to come knocking.

DLR co co went out of their way to facilitate the creation of Dundrum SC as they discovered that a huge proportion of their citizens' spend was outside the co co area because the Square in Tallaght, Blanchardstown SC and Liffey Valley SC were now accessible with the improved roads, including the M50. I can understand their resistance to plans that threaten to pull people away to an out of town mega shopping mall in Cherrywood.

I think it would be to the advantage of DLRCoCo to have a viable local alternative to principally draw traffic away from Dundrum. It's horrendous, especially on weekends when people come from far and wide to worship at the alter of retail excellence...

Larbre34

Tabnabs wrote: »

But this hasn't been a problem in the Ballymun site. IKEA is the sole mega-size retailer there and there's plenty of land around it for other retailers to come knocking.



I think it would be to the advantage of DLRCoCo to have a viable local alternative to principally draw traffic away from Dundrum. It's horrendous, especially on weekends when people come from far and wide to worship at the alter of retail excellence...

Its not a matter of having an alternative to another type of retail, the two would be very different markets and Dundrum is as much a social centre as retail, you wouldn't have that profile with an IKEA as its more about planned 'project' visits, so in all likelyhood on a busy weekend IKEA would be busy and Dundrum would remain as busy - which is why the NRA have stated concerns about peak capacity on the M50 southern section, especially as it funnels into a 2-lane M11.

The planning consideration of IKEA is whether or not giant warehousing (or even smaller retail park style outlets) is what the Cherrywood masterplan should be about. If you look at Adamstown, the model is for residential, village retail, light commercial and community facilities. A 20,000 sq.m big blue box is not going to compliment that, and is incompatible with the Carrickmines centre just up the road serving those needs.

Slutmonkey57b

Very good point. One of the main reasons there is a derelict development site there at all is the effect carrickmines, dundrum, cornelscourt and Tesco ballybrack already have on local and drive-by shopping. The original scheme failed to attract an anchor tenant.

Fratton Fred

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Very good point. One of the main reasons there is a derelict development site there at all is the effect carrickmines, dundrum, cornelscourt and Tesco ballybrack already have on local and drive-by shopping. The original scheme failed to attract an anchor tenant.

I thought Tesco were looking to build a store up there at some point?

RosieJoe

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Very good point. One of the main reasons there is a derelict development site there at all is the effect carrickmines, dundrum, cornelscourt and Tesco ballybrack already have on local and drive-by shopping. The original scheme failed to attract an anchor tenant.

Main reason the site is derelict is the Mahon tribunal. If all was above board on the land rezoning that land would be a housing estate.

Slutmonkey57b

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought Tesco were looking to build a store up there at some point?

Tesco are an anchor tenant in Dundrum, and have another big store in Ballybrack. Makes no sense to be another anchor tenant just down the road.

RosieJoe

I had heard that Tesco were to move to Cherrywood from Ballybrack, not have the 2 running together

Bits_n_Bobs

RosieJoe wrote: »

I had heard that Tesco were to move to Cherrywood from Ballybrack, not have the 2 running together

That was my understanding as well - Tesco move up the road and presumably Ballybrack center to be redeveloped to 1 and 2 bed apartment blocks....

I see there is a sign in Ballybrack saying they are going to expand the shopping center as well, so assume that it is definitely dead in the water and Tesco have signed a new lease / given some long term commitment to the center.

Hard to understand what an IKEA would bring to the area, as others have pointed out the other one is 20 minutes away. I think there's definitely demand for family housing (including family-sized apartments) in the area.

Fratton Fred

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

That was my understanding as well - Tesco move up the road and presumably Ballybrack center to be redeveloped to 1 and 2 bed apartment blocks....

I see there is a sign in Ballybrack saying they are going to expand the shopping center as well, so assume that it is definitely dead in the water and Tesco have signed a new lease / given some long term commitment to the center.

Hard to understand what an IKEA would bring to the area, as others have pointed out the other one is 20 minutes away. I think there's definitely demand for family housing (including family-sized apartments) in the area.

If you take the Luas from Cherrywood to Ballyogan, you will see how much land is up there. There are two built, but unused stops before you cross the M50!

They could double the existing residential development and still build a Tesco and IKEA superstore

Bullseye1

ted1 wrote: »

I would not agree, causing congestion at a major junction. Taking business away from local villages. Etc, etc. plenty of shopping centres within a ten minute drive. Ikea a 25 minute drive

That depends on where your driving from. If you South of Bray I think its a great idea.

Larbre34

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you take the Luas from Cherrywood to Ballyogan, you will see how much land is up there. There are two built, but unused stops before you cross the M50!

They could double the existing residential development and still build a Tesco and IKEA superstore

The land is well spoken for,this shows you the scope of the Cherrywood plan

Tragedy

South/South East Dublin needs high quality residential housing with good amenities and transport links far more than it does a new Ikea.

Slutmonkey57b

Bullseye1 wrote: »

That depends on where your driving from. If you South of Bray I think its a great idea.

If you like being able to drive out of bray, an IKEA at that junction would kill traffic stone dead. Rush hour traffic stretched across the whole day? If that's what floats your boat...

Tabnabs

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

If you like being able to drive out of bray, an IKEA at that junction would kill traffic stone dead. Rush hour traffic stretched across the whole day? If that's what floats your boat...

There was a customs and Gardai road block at rush hour traffic this morning coming off the M50. No noticeable difference to traffic. Again, Ballymum exit from M50 which is no bigger than Cherrywood is not gridlocked at any time. Rush hour traffic at rush hour at Cherrywood is nothing too troublesome. No reason to expect it would get any worse.

Cookie_Monster

During my time working for Tesco it was talked about but ultimately rejected and Ballybrack received a facelift instead.

I can't see traffic being that big an issue, it's a big junction with 3 lanes on the slips and would be free flowing into the store. The N11 / Wyatville road would be more of a problem given the terrible light timings there.

ted1

I believe Dunnes were meant to be a tenant in cherrywood. A lot of time particular in good times stores would open to block competitors from opening.

errlloyd

Traffic argument is ridiculous. I drive through that exit every single day both ways at a range of times, there is no traffic. And as it stands they have extra exits off the link road built with lanes that are currently closed. The area is massive and currently provides no social function. You can't play or walk dogs, it's not grassy, it's muddy, rocky and fenced off.

Slutmonkey57b

errlloyd wrote: »

Traffic argument is ridiculous. I drive through that exit every single day both ways at a range of times, there is no traffic. And as it stands they have extra exits off the link road built with lanes that are currently closed. The area is massive and currently provides no social function. You can't play or walk dogs, it's not grassy, it's muddy, rocky and fenced off.

Actually it's not fenced off, you can walk into it past the luas tracks. Plenty of people walk dogs up there, and all along the green corridor either side of the tracks, down to the stream. Plenty of wildlife around by Tully church (rabbits, frogs, even saw a deer once). I must have been dreaming while I took my kids adventuring around there if you're right and there's nowhere for them to play. It's a sad reflection when people's idea of "social function" is "plenty of space to drive on and a massive soulless concrete barn where you can buy something you don't actually need". Maybe one of the reasons housing is in demand around that area is because unlike Ikea's other location, it isn't blighted by massive industrial parks?

Equally, if there's no traffic around that area I must have been seeing things when the roundabout and the road into dun laoghaire was clogged up every day for an hour or more every evening and morning. Clearly adding a hyper mart to one side of that isn't going to affect traffic at all... Traffic southbound regularly backs up almost as far as that exit, and will go back even further if there's anything wrong at bray. The m50 slip is 500 metres southbound and 900m northbound. The equivalent at ballymun is 1.5km northbound and southbound so yes, I think the traffic would be bad.

Larbre34

Morning traffic between 8.15 and 9.15 frequently backs up the Wyattville Link Road back to the M50 to a point roughly where the unused junction into the open land is. If you added IKEA traffic to that you would be looking at gridlock every morning and evening 6 maybe 7 days a week. The Cherrywood interchange to the M50 does not have the capacity to cope with that.

When IKEA opened in Ballymun they were forced to wait until the M50 upgrade was completed to Ballymun to allow for 3 lanes and a free flow interchange, which explains the relative ease with which you can access IKEA over there. It would be a totally different story at Cherrywood with the road access as it is.

Fratton Fred

Larbre34 wrote: »

Morning traffic between 8.15 and 9.15 frequently backs up the Wyattville Link Road back to the M50 to a point roughly where the unused junction into the open land is. If you added IKEA traffic to that you would be looking at gridlock every morning and evening 6 maybe 7 days a week. The Cherrywood interchange to the M50 does not have the capacity to cope with that.

When IKEA opened in Ballymun they were forced to wait until the M50 upgrade was completed to Ballymun to allow for 3 lanes and a free flow interchange, which explains the relative ease with which you can access IKEA over there. It would be a totally different story at Cherrywood with the road access as it is.

IKEA doesn't open until 10am.

Slutmonkey57b

Fratton Fred wrote: »

IKEA doesn't open until 10am.

Currently. At its existing location. Because of planning restrictions put in place to manage traffic. Following a road upgrade.

reprazant

Makes absolutely no sense for IKEA to open another shop in Dublin.

Surely, it would make far more sense to have one shop in the south and one in Dublin.

Fratton Fred

reprazant wrote: »

Makes absolutely no sense for IKEA to open another shop in Dublin.

Surely, it would make far more sense to have one shop in the south and one in Dublin.

I'd love it if they did, but I really cant see the need. I would have thought Mallow side of Cork would be best.

Tabnabs

reprazant wrote: »

Makes absolutely no sense for IKEA to open another shop in Dublin.

Surely, it would make far more sense to have one shop in the south and one in Dublin.

You must know something the IKEA people don't. It's them pushing the proposal...

reprazant

Tabnabs wrote: »

You must know something the IKEA people don't. It's them pushing the proposal...

Right sorry, I probably should have IMO before the sentence to make it more obvious that it was just my opinion that it makes no sense.

Other than for people coming up the N11 or that live around it, it makes no sense to have another huge shop in Dublin. The majority of people people not coming down the M1 are going to hit the M50 and then decide which one to go to?

IMO, it would make a lot more sense to have one in Cork (afaik they looked at two places there, one in Mallow, one in Middlton) which would cater for most of the south of the country, the one in Ballymum for the west, midlands and east and the one in Belfast for the northern counties.

ITDept

How long is it likely to be before a decision is made?

hfallada

reprazant wrote: »

Makes absolutely no sense for IKEA to open another shop in Dublin.

Surely, it would make far more sense to have one shop in the south and one in Dublin.

The Dublin ikea is one of the top 10 in the world for sales. Like Ireland has 4,5 million fairly high income people who don't buy second hand furniture. Irish weee scheme the electrical recycling is twice the eu average as Irish people won't buy second hand electrical goods.

Most cities in Germany the size of Irelands population would have 2/3 ikeas

errlloyd

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Actually it's not fenced off, you can walk into it past the luas tracks. Plenty of people walk dogs up there, and all along the green corridor either side of the tracks, down to the stream. Plenty of wildlife around by Tully church (rabbits, frogs, even saw a deer once).

I think its a specifically different area that they are looking to build on then the one in the direction of carrickmines you're walking the dogs and bringing the kids. You could fit an IKEA pretty handily on the big gravelly rocky wasteland that exists already.

Equally, if there's no traffic around that area I must have been seeing things when the roundabout and the road into dun laoghaire was clogged up every day for an hour or more every evening and morning.

I have to be in college at 8 on a Thursday, 9 on a Friday, 10 on a Monday and 12 on a Wednesday. I come home at an equally wonderful range of rush hour times, finishing at 4 on a Monday, 5 on a Friday and 6 on a Thursday. With the exception of last weeks multi car pile up on the M11 I have never experienced any traffic to note at Cherrywood. In fact today joining the motorway I think for the first time in my life I almost didn't get through the lights first time.

EDIT: I decided to compare the two sites, just to show you that none of the greenery would be effected by the construction of the IKEA. What I have done is taken two screenshots of google maps satelight photos from the same height. I have generously marked the space around the IKEA in Ballymun, and copy and pasted the exact same rectangle onto the wasteland in cherrywood. It fits no bother on that empty gravelly bit, I also don't think its gonna need to be as big as the other one. I think its an eye sore, but that's the only reason I'd oppose it.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9920/ikeacomparison.jpg

ted1

Seems to be some activity up there at the moment, I see a tower crane as being moved to site and a excavator working away. The link road by brides glen luas stop has/ is being handed over to the council.

Not IKEA related but good to see activity