Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

W123-80's

sydthebeat wrote: »

hypothetically, how can show your competence for compliance of the regulations?

this isnt a challenge, its actually what all prospective self builders would have to do.

My first response to your initial question would be how can a builder show competence?

But that is irrelevant, surely an engineer worth his salt will sign off at each stage to say the building has been built correctly and to the standards.

If the drawings are correct, if the blocklayer, electrician, plumbers etc are all qualified and have relevant papers to carry out their trades/jobs, why do I need a contractor to comply with the regs?
Can I not just have an engineer who will say all is in order according to the regs. Obviously if all is not in order then the engineer will not sign off and I am in bother. But if that is a risk I am willing to take why stop me?

Hypothetically speaking of course.!

Open A

BryanF wrote: »

this all great but.. the disgust people here have towards this new legislation is pointless. how about every time someone posts about it here, they also send a mail to minster hogan copying their local TDs and council representatives!
Website: www.philhogan.ie Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/PhilHoganTD
Email: philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie

Couldn't agree more! I think I emailed 20 TDs yesterday..

4Sticks

W123-80's wrote: »

Obviously if all is not in order then the engineer will not sign off and I am in bother. But if that is a risk I am willing to take why stop me?

Imagine this. You build out well as you wish to above here. You appoint yourself as builder and the nice engineer signs off. And then emigrates. Five years pass and then you want to sell up and you do. One year later and the new owner suffers defects. Paper work is examined. Now who was the builder again ....in the onerous context of these new regulations ....?

Broaden this out and away from the self builder / own house situation. Suppose you are a wealthy developer. You will build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

For the consumer i.e. most of not lucky enough to build our own - this existing scenario will not change.

martinn123

4sticks wrote:

build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Now if you are unhappy with the quality, don't sign, until rectified.
It's called standing over your Certification.

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Now if you are unhappy with the quality, don't sign, until rectified.
It's called standing over your Certification.

in order to do so, the certifer is on site every day, a 'clerk of works' if you like. will the self builder pay for this?

or the opposite happens, the certifer isnt paid to visit more than once a week. will you stop work after fixing the grounds for the suspended ceiling until its inspected by the certifer? perhaps doubling the visits you have to a site and delays the clients schedule.

is the industry ready to provide every scrap of evidence from every item installed and certificates of conformance for same?

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Nothing in the new regs stopping the developer appointing his own 'friendly' or 'understanding' assigned certifier.

So...pretty much as you were...

....but this time it has absolutely nothing to do with local authority! Under new regs, you won't have the likes of Dublin City Council (or other local authorities) having to foot the bill for temporary accommodation when things go wrong!

cikearney

Can someone tell me if I break ground and start mid February, can I avoid having to appoint a "builder".

And yes I will be complying with all regs, insurance and health and safety

martinn123

@ BryanF I am not suggesting the difficulties you point out are not valid, they are.

Fees will have to reflect the input/time aspect,

I am however welcoming the attempt to weed out the previous prevelance of "Certs for Fees" irrespective of quality and lack of Inspection.

BryanF

DOCARCH wrote: »

Under new regs, you won't have the likes of Dublin City Council (or other local authorities) having to foot the bill for temporary accommodation when things go wrong!

hmm
were the councils stakeholders in the drafting of this bill ?

BryanF

cikearney wrote: »

Can someone tell me if I break ground and start mid February, can I avoid having to appoint a "builder".

And yes I will be complying with all regs, insurance and health and safety

yes

cikearney

BryanF wrote: »

yes

And what would the start consist of, once I break ground?

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

Nothing in the new regs stopping the developer appointing his own 'friendly' or 'understanding' assigned certifier.

So...pretty much as you were...

What about the Professional Integrity of the Certifyer, or is that just a myth

DOCARCH

BryanF wrote: »

hmm
were the councils stakeholders in the drafting of this bill ?

Well...if you consider what government department councils come under/answer too...maybe?

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

What about the Professional Integrity of the Certifyer, or is that just a myth

People are people!

There are good and bad in all walks of life and if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.

This face that the Minister is putting on these new regs is that they are interest of consumer protection...this is complete tripe!

The only recourse anybody will have, if things, go wrong, is engage a raft of legal professionals and go through a lengthy and costly court process to get any redress.

Fine if you are a commercial entity...but if you are an individual house or apartment owner, it will be harder than ever to get any form redress.

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

People are people!

There are good and bad in all walks of life and if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.


The only recourse anybody will have, if things, go wrong, is engage a raft of legal professionals and go through a lengthy and costly court process to get any redress.

Fine if you are a commercial entity...but if you are an individual house or apartment owner, it will be harder than ever to get any form redress.

So absolutely no change from the current position,

Why all the fuss??

Oh and the Developers can now go Bankrupt in Ireland.

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Why all the fuss??

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921361

Basically, the regs are flawed...and...offer the consumer essentially less protection than ever (at extra cost).

If the new regs are significantly re-worked, with everybody taking their fair share of responsibility, with statutory registration of builders (to put them on a professional footing), with latent defects insurance and with some oversight by the local authority (or other independent body)...then maybe...

W123-80's

4Sticks wrote: »

Imagine this. You build out well as you wish to above here. You appoint yourself as builder and the nice engineer signs off. And then emigrates. Five years pass and then you want to sell up and you do. One year later and the new owner suffers defects. Paper work is examined. Now who was the builder again ....in the onerous context of these new regulations ....?

Broaden this out and away from the self builder / own house situation. Suppose you are a wealthy developer. You will build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

For the consumer i.e. most of not lucky enough to build our own - this existing scenario will not change.

I understand the point in relation to wealthy builders and dodgy engineers having the freedom to sign off on any old rubbish.

But I am a self builder so I am not concerned with this scenario yet I am being effected by it.
As I mentioned previously why am I not allowed to build my own house within the regs with an engineer signing off that all is above board?
I'm not specifically asking you of course, more posing the question.

I've been thinking about it all evening and the more time I give it the dafter it seems.
Picture the following hypothetical scenario;
I own the land, I have plenty the cash to build (say €200k)
The cash has been earned legitimately.

Now why can't I hire in skilled labour to build my own house, on my own land, with my own money, to the required regulations, for me and my wife.

I can't for the life of me see any reason why I should have to hire the services of a middle man/third party/contractor to build my house if I don't want to.

There is something about that scenario that doesn't sit right with me at a very fundamental level.

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921361

Basically, the regs are flawed...and...offer the consumer essentially less protection than ever (at extra cost).

If the new regs are significantly re-worked, with everybody taking their fair share of responsibility, with statutory registration of builders (to put them on a professional footing), with latent defects insurance and with some oversight by the local authority (or other independent body)...then maybe...

..... We will revert to form and just.....

DOCARCH wrote:

...if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.

newbie2013

LMBO Only in ireland do the biggest bunch of arseholes you could find, get into office and come up with the biggest fcuked up regs anyone can even think off. Imagine killing the one thing that was great about this country, a man being able to build his own home with his own hands if capable. Its just laughable that it cant be done now. I hope someone challanges this on a human rights level because IMO, thats what it is.



Just curious , will this make rural house prices rise now that this is the case. I own my own house, (own it outright, built in the boom years) and was planning on down sizing and building a new home with the new regs. Now it looks like ill have to take my home off the market and sit on it for a few years to see how the market settles now because with these changes, ill need another x-amount of thousands to complete, something i would have been able to do if these new regs didnt come in

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newbie2013

Without a second thought. Selling up and getting as far away from this country as possible. I thought it was already bad but this is terrible news. Fcuk knows what the country will be like in 10 years time with these **** in power!!!.







Mods, sorry for the rant but i think its justified

DOCARCH

newbie2013 wrote: »

Mods, sorry for the rant but i think its justified

Me too!

There has been some little snippets in the papers and on the radio over the past few weeks about these new regulations...the problem is that it has been sort of high level/techncial stuff...and, unfortunately, in my opinion, it has come across as architects just whinging!!!

But when the reality of these regs come into effect, with Joe Public, expect to hear a lot more about it.

As I have mentioned, the reality is lots more paperwork, red tape, cost, etc., etc., for the consumer/the man on the street who wants to building their own house....but no added protection for the consumer at the end of it all.

This is very poor (knee jerk) legislation which has not been properly thought out.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

..... We will revert to form and just.....

But the major Difference is that the end consumer would simply have to enact an insurance claim of and when the issue arises without having to prove fault to anyone.

The new regs just mean that Convoluted lengthy costly court actions against a possibly dissolved company must be taken by the same end consumer in the hope of some redress.

Which sounds like a better protection to the Consumer?

newbie2013

Can these regs be changed with a government change ? I think big gerry A from west belfast wouldnt be to happy about these, maybe this would be another way to get votes or is it just budgets they can change. As you can see, i know nothing about politics lol

martinn123

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds

Self-builders will be required under S.I.80, as clients, to employ a design certifier and assigned certifier (engineer/ architect/ building surveyor)- this is positive as it is unwise for a technically non-experienced person to undertake self-building without professional input. This should be welcomed as a positive development.

If a client is going to be the builder, currently that’s fine- self-builders can nominate themselves (as long as they consider themselves to be ‘competent’ and as builders are currently unregistered this seems to work well for self-builders. The only persons precluded from operating as contractors are Architects.

So, S.I.80 at the moment can only improve the quality of self-builds.

However when a formal register of builders is introduced in 2015 self-builders will need to meet the criteria to become registered, or will be precluded from this role. The criteria more than likely is a minimum of 3 years relevant building experience, tax affairs in order, relevant insurances in place etc.

So, in 12 months self-building will no longer be possible unless the self-builder is already an established experienced contractor, with their own insurances and tax-clearance documents etc. People who want to undertake works themselves are no longer able to do so. One unintended consequence of this is that rural landowners with some building experience who are capable of managing sub-contractors will no longer be able to inhabit this role- they will be forced down the more expensive route of appointing a main contractor to domestic or other projects that require planning permission (farm buildings, outhouses etc.)

You have till Mar 2015 at least, thereafter it assumes the formal register of Builders is in place, which has not been agreed with Tom Parlons lot, yet.

In addition, the LA's do not have the systems in place for this to come into effect from March, so my guess is it will be delayed.

sydthebeat

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

Also, on the scheme not being up and running, they are referring to a online digital submission scheme. You can be sure they will still insist on a good old paper Submission come next March.

newbie2013

martinn123 wrote: »

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds


You have till Mar 2015 at least, .

Thats all wel and good but what about my 19yr old whos always dreamnt about building his home when he returns to settle in ireland in a decade. Itll be to late for him and others. Yes i understand that he still can but this will come at a high price for little extra cover.

newbie2013

sydthebeat wrote: »

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

Also, on the scheme not being up and running, they are referring to a online digital submission scheme. You can be sure they will still insist on a good old paper Submission come next March.

What does one need to register ?

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not post a copy of a Document, which stated " supply registered number" If APPLICABLE

I'm on I Pad and can't find it.

sydthebeat

newbie2013 wrote: »

What does one need to register ?

The cif are compiling a registry of building contractors. Each contractor is given a reg number which must be submitted as part of the commencement documents.

W123-80's

martinn123 wrote: »

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds


You have till Mar 2015 at least, thereafter it assumes the formal register of Builders is in place, which has not been agreed with Tom Parlons lot, yet.

In addition, the LA's do not have the systems in place for this to come into effect from March, so my guess is it will be delayed.

The point still stands.
In March 2015 anyone wanting to self build will be FORCED down the more expensive route of appointing a main contractor.

The forced bit is the part I have a huge issue with. I think it is completely unfair.
If a person is willing to build their own house by hiring competent and certified tradesmen, paying VAT on all jobs along the way, getting an engineer to sign off according to the regs, they should be entitled to do so.

These regs are interfering with the free market in that self builders will be forced to hire a contractor and tradesmen will be forced to work for contractors.

Thats just plain daft.
Self employed tradesmen are highly qualified people, why should I have to go through a middle man to ensure they are doing their job correct?
A good engineer can do these checks.

Regardless of when the regs come into effect I think they are flawed and unfair on a lot of individuals.