Have Toyota lost their edge??

road_high

Some might argue they never had one but their cars have defo gone down in my estimation in the past 5 years.
The Auris/Corolla effort looks horrific to me and according to reports not great to drive/sit in or even all that reliable.

The Avensis was very upmarket ten years ago at launch. It was a fine big car that looked decent and even had a bit of class. The one from 09 onwards though again appears to be a big step down in terms of quality and looks. Doesn't look too bad in estate form for some reason. Plus no hatch version which is silly as the Mondeo and Insignia have these. Those two were the opoosite and the newer models are a huge leap ahead of the respective old Mondeo and Vectra.

What really got me going though is the new Rav 4. The things looks really bad. Dull and cheap looking. Cannot believe they are offering this when the Kia and Hyundai rivals look so well.

I do think the Yaris has improved a bit and is a more sold looking car now.

The GT86 is great but we're not gona see many in "cheap" tax obsessed Ireland!

They lost their edge in the 90s imo.

Supergurrier

What edge ?

Also my auld fella has had every Avensis from 00 to 12 every 2 years he changes and the new one is miles ahead in terms of quality

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

What edge ?........

Lots more people used to buy them, want to buy them etc etc etc.

Supergurrier

RoverJames wrote: »

Lots more people used to buy them, want to buy them etc etc etc.

That's not an edge it was lack of other options tbh.

bazz26

The Korean's have overtaken them these days in the cars they make and the more comprehensive warranty they offer. Toyota still sell well here however to an extent because they still have a loyal customer base who just go out religously and buy another one. You could say the same about alot of brands though, VW, Ford, etc all have their loyal repeat customers who simply don't entertain the idea of looking at any other brand when it comes to picking a car. In general car buyers tend to be very brand loyal unless they have a bad experience.

Toyotafanboi

OP, I think you're expecting something of toyota that they never offered.

The Auris/Corolla effort looks horrific to me and according to reports not great to drive/sit in or even all that reliable.

when was the corolla ever really that handsome or pleasant to sit in? it was always dull as ditchwater to be blunt. i dont really know much about its reliability of the latest gen but most of the VVTi units are pretty sound.

The Avensis was very upmarket ten years ago at launch. It was a fine big car that looked decent and even had a bit of class. The one from 09 onwards though again appears to be a big step down in terms of quality and looks. Doesn't look too bad in estate form for some reason. Plus no hatch version which is silly as the Mondeo and Insignia have these. Those two were the opoosite and the newer models are a huge leap ahead of the respective old Mondeo and Vectra.

"looks" is a very matter of opinion based thing to base your arguement on. i mean some guys even like fat birds. they might be missing a trick with no hatchback, or no diesel/ auto combination (think i heard that somewhere), but i think the sort of person who buys an insignia would never consider an avensis regardless. the avensis will always have its loyal culchie following in 1.6 petrol form and thats all it really needs :pac:

What really got me going though is the new Rav 4. The things looks really bad. Dull and cheap looking. Cannot believe they are offering this when the Kia and Hyundai rivals look so well.

Again, when was the rav ever "upper class" looking, they were always dull looking jeeps. but you're not honestly going to tell me you think that the santa fe/ sorento (albeit a reasonable attempt of a jeep) will be long term more reliable than the rav?

The GT86 is great but we're not gona see many in "cheap" tax obsessed Ireland!

the cost of tax in Ireland is hardly toyotas issue to deal with.

Toyotas biggest issue i feel is that the media still hasn't released it from its grip after the accelerator fiasco. i mean if toyota recall 25 cars in north america over a defective rear demister button the media are having a field day. whereas the reality of it is every manufacturer runs various campaigns and recalls every day of the week and not a single **** is given by the media.

i do agree that the koreans are going to own the show pretty soon.

bazz26

The GT86 is very reasonable to tax imo given what it is and what else is on offer in this class for €40k. Imo the type of person interested in buying a GT86 would not be put off by the motor tax.

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

That's not an edge it was lack of other options tbh.

Starlet had the Micra, Uno, Charade, Swift, Fiesta, Corsa, Metro and 121 (and others) to compete with.

Corolla had the Sunny, Tipo, Escort, 323, Kadett, Lancer, 213 etc to compete with.

Carina competed with the Vectra, Sierra/Mondeo, Bluebird/Primera etc

There was plenty of other options, Toyota offerings were considered a better package due largely to reliability. Other jap stuff was as good but Toyota wiped the floor with the European offerings. Toyota were noticeably more expensive to purchase second hand.

The Celica, MR2, Supra and other sporty offerings along with their involvement in motorsport created a very credible brand image that people "aspired" to.

There was plenty of other options though, tbh.

ManMade

Walked past a GT86 at a red light in cork last month. Stunning car. Beautiful engiene and exhaust noise when it took off. Proper head turner.

Cee-Jay-Cee

ManMade wrote: »

Walked past a GT86 at a red light in cork last month. Stunning car. Beautiful engiene and exhaust noise when it took off. Proper head turner.

Thanks to the Subaru flat four engine.

JohnBoy26

Toyota definatly have lost their edge imo. They have reached the top in the late 90's and are now living off the reputation they gained from the cars built in that period rather than the quality of their current offerings.

The cars Toyota made in the late 90's were dull no doubt but that's where the critisism ended because their quality and reliabilty was unmatched by no other manufacturer, they were queit simply brilliantly put together cars and were very nice mechanically.

Their quality however started dropping in the early 00's imo and continues to drop to this present day.

Just look at the current Corolla or Previous Auris, they are very cheaply made cars with cheap nasty interiors, only average reliabilty and aren't as well put together as you would expect. This is not just true of these two examples either, but across most of the other Toyota range as well.

As well as their slipping quality, their joint ventures with other manufacturers isn't helping their cause either imo. The day when Toyota made and engineered all their own stuff was the day they were at their best imo.

Their is no doubt imo, that korean manufactures Hyundai and Kia offer much higher quality vehicles than Toyota today. Not only that but they are nicer to look at and are nicer mecanically as well imo.

The way I see it is Toyota have reached the top of the hill and built their reputation, they are now sliding down the other side imo

Kia and Hyundai are still climing that hill building their reputation and as anyone can see every new model by these two is a major step foward from the last.

H3llR4iser

Never had any edge at all, except what the popular hype built around them. Certainly they made some very solid and practical everyday cars over the years and also some sportier models mostly for the Japanese market, but in the end they are a generalist manufacturer in the same league of the likes of FIAT, Ford or Renault.

There's really nothing but personal preference about choosing a Toyota over another car, especially with the slight premium used models sell for. That, or the old "Paddy down the pub says they're great!".

shinkansen

road_high wrote: »

Some might argue they never had one but their cars have defo gone down in my estimation in the past 5 years.
The Auris/Corolla effort looks horrific to me and according to reports not great to drive/sit in or even all that reliable.

The Avensis was very upmarket ten years ago at launch. It was a fine big car that looked decent and even had a bit of class. The one from 09 onwards though again appears to be a big step down in terms of quality and looks. Doesn't look too bad in estate form for some reason. Plus no hatch version which is silly as the Mondeo and Insignia have these. Those two were the opoosite and the newer models are a huge leap ahead of the respective old Mondeo and Vectra.

What really got me going though is the new Rav 4. The things looks really bad. Dull and cheap looking. Cannot believe they are offering this when the Kia and Hyundai rivals look so well.

I do think the Yaris has improved a bit and is a more sold looking car now.

The GT86 is great but we're not gona see many in "cheap" tax obsessed Ireland!

When i think Toyota i think poverty spec.

my brother got a new diesel Toyota, 1.4 or something, cost the guts of 20k.

no a/c, no climate control, no auto wipers, no mp3, no bluetooth, no elec seats, no cruise control.

nice car by all means but with none of the above its not the car for me at that price.

my almost 10 year old accord has all that and more, sure it wont do the same on a tank of fuel but its a better drive.

Toyotafanboi

shinkansen wrote: »

When i think Toyota i think poverty spec.

my brother got a new diesel Toyota, 1.4 or something, cost the guts of 20k.

no a/c, no climate control, no auto wipers, no mp3, no bluetooth, no elec seats, no cruise control.

nice car by all means but with none of the above its not the car for me at that price.

my almost 10 year old accord has all that and more, sure it wont do the same on a tank of fuel but its a better drive.

would a new bottom spec golf have given him any of those things?

spending 20k on a brand new corolla sounds like he bought the cheapest one possible.

JohnBoy26

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Never had any edge at all, except what the popular hype built around them. Certainly they made some very solid and practical everyday cars over the years and also some sportier models mostly for the Japanese market, but in the end they are a generalist manufacturer in the same league of the likes of FIAT, Ford or Renault.

There's really nothing but personal preference about choosing a Toyota over another car, especially with the slight premium used models sell for. That, or the old "Paddy down the pub says they're great!".

Toyota were certinatly far better than the three manufacturers you compare them to.

corktina

we had an 06 Avensis new , my missus traded in her 3 series for it. It as dreadful and we only kept in a year. Plastic overdose interior and very poor ride quality with vibration through the wheel all the time. We're all Ford again now thank Dog!

JohnBoy26

shinkansen wrote: »

When i think Toyota i think poverty spec.

my brother got a new diesel Toyota, 1.4 or something, cost the guts of 20k.

no a/c, no climate control, no auto wipers, no mp3, no bluetooth, no elec seats, no cruise control.

nice car by all means but with none of the above its not the car for me at that price.

my almost 10 year old accord has all that and more, sure it wont do the same on a tank of fuel but its a better drive.

A 20k 1.4 diesel would either be a Corolla or an Auris which in fairness is a class or two below an Accord and isn't really comparable even if the Accord is a bit older.

Toyotafanboi

corktina wrote: »

we had an 06 Avensis new , my missus traded in her 3 series for it. It as dreadful and we only kept in a year. Plastic overdose interior and very poor ride quality with vibration through the wheel all the time. We're all Ford again now thank Dog!

what did BMW make their interior from if it wasn't plastic

did you get the wheel balancing checked?

BobBobBobBob

shinkansen wrote: »

When i think Toyota i think poverty spec.

That's what I think too!!

Back in 2010 I had a 1990 GT Starlet for 7 months and LOVED it!! Best car they ever made IMO.

Toyotafanboi

BobBobBobBob wrote: »

That's what I think too!!

Back in 2010 I had a 1990 GT Starlet for 7 months and LOVED it!! Best car they every made IMO.

in its defence, for a 1990 car, electric windows, power folding mirrors, air con, most with climate control, central locking, sun roof etc etc. very well kitted out for its day.

not to mention 135bhp in a car weighing little more than a quality street tin. not the nest handler but they are a laugh to drive.

edit : pushing your luck with that air filter relocation :pac:

JohnBoy26

corktina wrote: »

we had an 06 Avensis new , my missus traded in her 3 series for it. It as dreadful and we only kept in a year. Plastic overdose interior and very poor ride quality with vibration through the wheel all the time. We're all Ford again now thank Dog!

Funny you should mention poor ride quality as Avensis of that era are one of the best riding cars in that class providing it hasn't got the 17inch alloys.


As for a plasticy interior, it might be plasticy but certinatly no worse than the a modeo of the same era.

Zubeneschamali

Toyota have always been about as edgy as Terry Wogan, they had nothing to lose.

Zubeneschamali

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

As for a plasticy interior, it might be plasticy but certinatly no worse than the a modeo of the same era.

I think there is a thing like colour-blindness, and people affected by it can't tell the difference between the plastics in a new Audi and a crumpled up egg tray.

It's not just taste: I think expensive German interiors often miss the mark, but I can see that an expensive Merc has a quality interior even when I don't like it.

Toyota fans really seem unable to see that a door-handle made from rock-hard hollow black plastic with a layer of silver paint which comes off where you grab it is unacceptable.

JohnBoy26

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think there is a thing like colour-blindness, and people affected by it can't tell the difference between the plastics in a new Audi and a crumpled up egg tray.

It's not just taste: I think expensive German interiors often miss the mark, but I can see that an expensive Merc has a quality interior even when I don't like it.

Toyota fans really seem unable to see that a door-handle made from rock-hard hollow black plastic with a layer of silver paint which comes off where you grab it is unacceptable.

Judging from that post and your previous post it seems you don't know what you are talking about.

I was a fan of Toyota's older stuff but not so much their newer offerings. I will however give credit where credit is due and that goes for any apects of any model of car I have experience with.

Zubeneschamali

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Judging from that post and your previous post it seems you don't know what you are talking about.

Erm, Toyota?

kyote00

Toyota have an excellent dealer network in Ireland with some first class people dealing with customers and customer issues.

I run a 2010 avensis estate as I do high milage - approaching 200,000km now. Its as tight and stable as the day I got it.

So I guess most people opt for a balance between cost, reliability and service - I think Toyota have got that balance right

maidhc

I have seen a few D4D Avensi knocking about with half a million plus miles up. Have one ourselves with 200k miles and passed NCT today with flying colours.

I think, when all is said and done Toyota are still the best at making quality cars.

gambithh

hell,there hasnt been a proper corolla since this one



as for the avensis,i put 30k up on a 07 d4d and i found it a joy to drive.ok,it wont set the world on fire but its very comfortable.

it was butt ugly though,where as the 2012 avensis in the most beautiful car in its class i feel especially in white.
its Volkswagen that have taken a step backin looks and reliability.

if i wanted a new runaround in the morning id buy a top spec avensis with leather,touch and go etc for 28k with cheap tax,not bad money in this day and age.

Matt Simis

Nice/interesting Toyota's moved into the Lexus brand years ago. The leftovers are runabouts for the everyman.

3qsmavrod5twfe

Don't think it is so much Toyota has declined specifically, it's just they haven't really improved in terms of style/reliability as much as other marques. Buying a Renault in the 90's should have come with a mechanic as you were going to need one as soon as you drove off the forecourt, whereas now they are reasonably reliable. Likewise Skoda, Ford etc etc. Can you imagine suggesting buying a less expensive car made in a back-water like Korea in '94 - you would have been judged as mad. Problem is Toyota are still wheeling out the same tired tagline "Probably the best built cars in the world" as they did back then when it was most definitely true. Now, not so much.

Zubeneschamali

Elian Steep Stockiness wrote: »

Buying a Renault in the 90's should have come with a mechanic as you were going to need one as soon as you drove off the forecourt

I owned 2 90s Renault Clios from new - never missed a beat apart from one snapped clutch cable, replaced free (out of warranty).

I will happily agree that Toyota were and are more reliable, but actual breakdowns in newish cars have been rare with any brand for a very long time. It's the difference between being very unlucky to have a breakdown (in a Renault) to being very, very unlucky in a Japanese car.

Doublelime

They are the no.1 car maker in the world, so they mist be doing something right! My dad recently changed from an 05 land cruser to a Volkswagen passat because better fuel consumption. They are taxed way to heavily in Ireland because they don't run on electricity like Volkswagen. (electricity and diesel at the same time)

H3llR4iser

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Toyota were certinatly far better than the three manufacturers you compare them to.

Better? Maybe more "solid" (the term "reliable" is a big stretch), but they all are on the same level on the rest - and not a bad one by any definition, let's be clear. It's only that Toyota fanboys make it sound like a Corolla is better than a Mercedes...

Toyotafanboi

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Better? Maybe more "solid" (the term "reliable" is a big stretch), but they all are on the same level on the rest - and not a bad one by any definition, let's be clear. It's only that Toyota fanboys make it sound like a Corolla is better than a Mercedes...

purely because you mentioned ford and renault.

are you honestly saying that the 1994 model corolla was inferior to the mk1 megane and mk5 escort?

H3llR4iser

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

purely because you mentioned ford and renault.

are you honestly saying that the 1994 model corolla was inferior to the mk1 megane and mk5 escort?

I shouldn't even bother replying given your nickname

Jokes aside no, I'd say they'd be more or less the same, that's it.

Matt Simis

Doublelime wrote: »

They are the no.1 car maker in the world, so they mist be doing something right! My dad recently changed from an 05 land cruser to a Volkswagen passat because better fuel consumption. They are taxed way to heavily in Ireland because they don't run on electricity like Volkswagen. (electricity and diesel at the same time)

We seem to have the strangest comments from random new guys here recently.

Toyotafanboi

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I shouldn't even bother replying given your nickname

Jokes aside no, I'd say they'd be more or less the same, that's it.

its threads like this that make me regret the username. i enjoy a good toyota. but i'm not afraid of other makes and models, that said, having driven renaults, opels, fords, vw's i always seem to end back up in a toyota.

H3llR4iser

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

its threads like this that make me regret the username. i enjoy a good toyota. but i'm not afraid of other makes and models, that said, having driven renaults, opels, fords, vw's i always seem to end back up in a toyota.

Lol, sorry for the joke

MugMugs

They were a great car in the day for their degree of innovation. I've never found a Toyota main stream a good looking car and yes, recently they've had their share of issues as well as being hammered by the Koreans who in my opinion are setting the market on fire but they are what they are and it seems to work for them. I'm covering horrendous mileage on an avensis and frankly she's taking it a lot better than her VW predecessor. I've no level of the same amount of issues I had with my VW. It's far from an exciting motor to drive but it does it economically and reliably which at the moment is what I need my motor to do. Personally though, I could see myself going Korean the next time around should my requirements still be the same.

Chris_Heilong

Toyota were a great company, they mad some of the best cars with MR2, Supra, Celica, AE86 Corolla, Soarer, Glanzer/starlet and the Chaser. If you mean the bog standard 'Normal' cars they sell now, then yes they have fallen from grace but I dont really like modern cars anyway and I would say many manufactures are not what they used to be.

colm_mcm

Thing to remember is that Ireland or even Europe isn't a big deal to Toyota. They're selling hybrids like mad in the US, their home market has a huge model range too. Its just the models Toyota Europe are bringing in from Japan like the urban cruiser and iq are overpriced and not volume sellers.
Instead of trying to be European they shouldn't forget that people bought jap cars in their droves back in the day before Toyota started copying the French and Germans badly

ofcork

I think the new avensis is the best looking car in its class and the reliability reputation is well deserved.

JohnBoy26

ofcork wrote: »

I think the new avensis is the best looking car in its class and the reliability reputation is well deserved.

The Avensis is definatly not the best looking car in it's class. Though the estate does look good, however the Saloon is no looker imo.

gambithh

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The Avensis is definatly not the best looking car in it's class. Though the estate does look good, however the Saloon is no looker imo.

id consider the opposite.no person that likes cars would ever admire an estate:D

bazz26

gambithh wrote: »

id consider the opposite.no person that likes cars would ever admire an estate:D

How very Irish.

JohnBoy26

gambithh wrote: »

id consider the opposite.no person that likes cars would ever admire an estate:D

Really? I like cars and admire cars like an alfa 159 sportwagon and estate offerings from other manufacturers such as Audi. Of the two the estate version of the Avensis is far better looking than the Saloon.

cadaliac

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The Avensis is definatly not the best looking car in it's class. Though the estate does look good, however the Saloon is no looker imo.

I agree and think the Peugeot 508 SW is the best looking estate for a good while - making the Avensis estate look quite square and sharp edged.
The new Avensis saloon is by no stretch, of anyone's imagination, the best looking car in that class, well imo.
Anyway, the Toyota reputation for build quality and reliability is well deserved over the past 2 decades. Not many other marques can boast the same but time will tell with the new crop of cars. I cannot comment on the interior of the latest stuff.

ofcork

I think the avensis saloon is easily better looking then the passat,mondeo,insignia,507,i40 etc.

JohnBoy26

ofcork wrote: »

I think the avensis saloon is easily better looking then the passat,mondeo,insignia,507,i40 etc.

It wouldn't be hard for it to be better looking than a half effort of a facelift passat. However you must be blind if you think an avensis is better looking than an i40!!!

wonski

ofcork wrote: »

I think the avensis saloon is easily better looking then the passat,mondeo,insignia,507,i40 etc.

I recently drove new model, and inside it looked and felt cheaper than 06 passat.
Good handling, good diesel engine, but i wouldn't buy it personally because of general look. Insignia looks much nicer, so is mondeo. I bet interior in those 2 is nicer, too.