Sky maybe after Rabo TV Deal, Ulster (or just awec) says NOO!

LeeroyJones

*MOD EDIT moved to new thread as I think it deserves it's own thread and discussion of this may have killed the other thread


Interesting that Sky are after the Pro12 coverage. I wonder if they are seeking exclusive rights

awec

I really hope they don't get rights. They tend to go for exclusive rights, Ulster have it great right now being on BBC every week!

its_phil

awec wrote: »

I really hope they don't get rights. They tend to go for exclusive rights, Ulster have it great right now being on BBC every week!

If it means more money at a time when more and more millionaires are investing in the French and English leagues and the government proposing to ban alcohol sponsorship, then it is well worth giving up FTA.

awec

Yea, but Ulster would only be on once every so often. As someone who lives in Dublin and rarely gets to see a game live I rely on them being on BBC every week.

If they were showing Ulster every week I'd have no bother.

its_phil

awec wrote: »

Yea, but Ulster would only be on once every so often. As someone who lives in Dublin and rarely gets to see a game live I rely on them being on BBC every week.

If they were showing Ulster every week I'd have no bother.

That's unfortunate but realistically more money should be the #1 influence here.

I'd imagine it will be a case of 4 games a weekend with one on Friday night, with a 5PM and 8PM on Saturday and one Sunday game. As highly doubtful it may be there could be a red button option too.

I'd imagine the main teams to suffer on British Sky would be Connacht, Dragons, Treviso and Zebre. Ulster would probably be fine but even now Ulster are extremely lucky to have every game broadcast. Doubt any other team in Europe has that luxury.

Macy0161

its_phil wrote: »

That's unfortunate but realistically more money should be the #1 influence here.

I'm not so sure it should be the number 1 influence - the unions should also be thinking longer term. They get great exposure under the current deal, particularly Irish and welsh teams. If all club rugby was behind a pay wall, I think there's a danger of doing long term damage.

awec

We've seen this all before with football. We know the way it will go.

[Jackass]

With the massive cash injection the AP are getting from the deal with BT and the massive amount of private investment pouring into French rugby, sadly it's inevitable that the Pro12 will fall behind unless it can secure big and exclusive TV deals. The sole reason the premier league football in England became the biggest league in the world was because of Sky sports. Believe it or not, League of Ireland sides used to get similar crowds back in the 60's and 70's, by the 90's, all you could find were United and Liverpool fans in Ireland and not many people who could name a league of Ireland player.

If we want our rugby to stay competetive with the big leagues, a big TV deal is absolutely crucial. On a long enough time line and without big TV money, the Pro12 will be left behind, at least in terms of competing financially, especially if the English and French aren't willing to share the spoils from European competition in the manner it has been done.

I hope the Pro12 is picked up on exclusive rights for Sky and I hope it gets big viewing figures from Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Italy as well as existing subscribers in England.

I've been saying it for a few years now, but getting proper TV coverage and a dedicated broadcaster is absolutely imperative for the league to progress. This TG4 / BBC Alba / S4C nonsense is killing the league and keeping it as a percieved joke.

Dedicated broadcaster and highlight shows sold off to broadcasters such as RTE / BBC NI / ITV Sport or whoever to show once a week.

its_phil

One of the biggest flaws of the Rabo is the lack of a dedicated highlight show that shows every game. Focusing on the Irish games and then showing brief highlights of non-Irish games is the way it should be done. The YouTube channel has been excellent the past two weeks, with updates during the game.

The Irish analysts haven't a clue about the opposition outside of big name reputations.

Podge_irl

I think the Pro12 is only just starting to get proper mainstream attention and currently that is far more important than short term financial gain. Having it on sky would currently be a complete backward step. Seeing Glasgow winning on FTA TV will do far more to increase their fan base than a bit extra cash and games that no one sees.

awec

All I'm saying is that Sky's influence on Premier League football has not been all positive. There are plenty of negatives and we need to be careful what we wish for. It turned the game into something where your final league position is closely related to the amount of money in the club's bank account. The only reason Man City and Chelsea are in any way competitive now is because they had huge cash injections from Russian and Arab billionaires. Gone are the days of leagues being won by anyone outside of the big few teams.

Local fans are priced out of the game as clubs hike prices to meet spiralling wage costs.

Smaller clubs have good seasons here and there before their best players are snapped up by the big clubs.

It will only be a matter of time before we see players on multi-million deals, players being bought and sold, players dropping out of international games that they don't deem important enough, etc etc.

I fear the arse will fall out of it and the whole thing will come crumbling down.

tolosenc

awec wrote: »

Yea, but Ulster would only be on once every so often. As someone who lives in Dublin and rarely gets to see a game live I rely on them being on BBC every week.

If they were showing Ulster every week I'd have no bother.

Just change allegiances to Leinster. Simple.

its_phil

awec wrote: »

The only reason Man City and Chelsea are in any way competitive now is because they had huge cash injections from Russian and Arab billionaires.

Toulon, Stade Francais and Saracens came from poor positions to league challengers pretty quickly from bad positions, so that has happened. I don't see how that is linked to Irish rugby seen as we are owned by the IRFU.

Gone are the days of leagues being won by anyone outside of the big few teams.

Same in the Rabo now with Munster, Leinster and Ospreys dominating. The big teams were winning in the old Division One before the Premier League with Liverpool and Arsenal. Leeds won the last one but they aren't exactly a small club and relegation isn't a potential pitfall for the Rabo.

Local fans are priced out of the game as clubs hike prices to meet spiralling wage costs.

Leinster currently charge €60 for their best seat in the house compared to Manchester United who charge €67. I think it is fair enough to assume United are a lot bigger than Leinster and have a much nicer stadium.

Smaller clubs have good seasons here and there before their best players are snapped up by the big clubs.

This is what the french clubs and English clubs are doing now. We can sit back and watch them take the cream of our crop or we can make more money to keep them here. Movement between teams in the Rabo is not as common due to it taking place in four countries and the unions paying wages. The non-compete clause means like in the McCarthy case Leinster could only offer what Connacht offered so the move had to be motivated by ambition as opposed to finance at a bigger team.

It will only be a matter of time before we see players on multi-million deals, players being bought and sold, players dropping out of international games that they don't deem important enough.

What is wrong with players on multi-million deals, are we suppose to fear someone making a great living? Already happening in the AP with George North. Hardly going to be dropping out of games when they are employed by the IRFU and playing in our leauge are they?

The only way to combat the French and English leagues is to get more revenue. They are going to be making it, so why should we stand idly by and watch their product get better and better while ours stagnates.

Podge_irl

The Pro12 is doing everything except stagnating. The Welsh exodus is a big concern but the league is getting better, attendances are growing outside Wales and I think the league is becoming more important to the teams involved. It's by far the youngest of the leagues and so without history on their side they've had to work harder to grow it. Moving to pay TV is certainly not the way to do that. A small bit more money is not worth the league not being on RTÉ and BBC anymore.

its_phil

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Pro12 is doing everything except stagnating. The Welsh exodus is a big concern but the league is getting better, attendances are growing outside Wales and I think the league is becoming more important to the teams involved. It's by far the youngest of the leagues and so without history on their side they've had to work harder to grow it. Moving to pay TV is certainly not the way to do that. A small bit more money is not worth the league not being on RTÉ and BBC anymore.

Of course it is not stagnating. Attendances are up 5% and 28% on TV from last year. They still have another season left on RTE and BBC. But we signed that deal in 2010 with RTE, you can hardly say the league is going to be worth a little more since 2010 and with the Sky hype machine coming on board it can take it to the next level.

By not accepting much better money deals from Sky, while the others accept better deals, yes our league will stagnate and fall behind.

I also would attribute the growth of the league here down to the success of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and even the small amount by Connacht in the Heineken Cup.

Podge_irl

Sky hype machine is only useful to those watching sky. People make an effort to view HEC, the Pro12 isn't at that level yet. The only way it grows is with people watching it on a Friday or Saturday because it is on BBC or RTÉ. I think, currently, the massively increased exposure is more useful than the probably minor difference in money available from Sky.

From a personal point of view I don't want to see the Pro12 on Sky as I'm not going to the pub every weekend to watch games. But even from a few real viewpoint, they are much better off growing the league for a few more years before shifting it to Sky for a lot more.

irishbucsfan

The problem with Sky is even if the Rabo doubles its viewing figures we'll always be 10th fiddle to every other sport they've got.

The Rabo will only interest people in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Any sport with any potential in England will be a higher priority.

If there's any sort of scheduling conflict the Rabo will be the first thing to make way.

But in the end we have to go for the deal that pays the most unfortunately.

vienne86

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The problem with Sky is even if the Rabo doubles its viewing figures we'll always be 10th fiddle to every other sport they've got.

The Rabo will only interest people in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Any sport with any potential in England will be a higher priority.

If there's any sort of scheduling conflict the Rabo will be the first thing to make way.

But in the end we have to go for the deal that pays the most unfortunately.

This is the thing that would worry me - we could really find ourselves on the hind tit with the scheduling, playing second fiddle to, in particular, the AP schedule.

Deano7788

vienne86 wrote: »

This is the thing that would worry me - we could really find ourselves on the hind tit with the scheduling, playing second fiddle to, in particular, the AP schedule.

They're losing the AP rights after this season so that wouldn't be an issue. It's any other sport that has English involvement that would be the problem.

P_1

If we could get something akin to Sky's coverage of the Superleague I wouldn't mind them getting the gig tbh

awec

It's a pity Sky wouldn't go for a deal to have first choice of fixtures each week with regional broadcasters allowed to show any they don't choose.

Macy0161

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But in the end we have to go for the deal that pays the most unfortunately.

It depends how much more though. Fair enough if it's big bucks compared to now, but if it's a relatively small amount extra then it has to be weighed up on things other than a few quid more.

awec wrote:

It's a pity Sky wouldn't go for a deal to have first choice of fixtures each week with regional broadcasters allowed to show any they don't choose.

This is the type of thing that the unions should be considering, rather than it just being a straight money decision. People's ideal may be to have live games on sky, and then highlights on terrestrial, but there'd have to be buy in from terrestrial broadcasters as well as Sky. My inclination is to believe that RTE, for example, would rather put on live games rather than put in time to edit down matches to put together a decent highlights package (going on the League of Ireland that was mentioned earlier).

Pete_Cavan

Regardless of how much money Sky offer, it will not be enough to allow Pro12 teams match the wages offered by French clubs. The outside investment the French clubs receive is far beyond anything the Celtic teams can hope to achieve. There needs to be new regulations put in place regarding how clubs are financed, how transfers are conducted and the wages they offer. The solution cant come from the national unions because in most countries the clubs have too much independence from their union so it will need to come from the IRB. The current system is damaging the international game, the most obvious example being the French national team. We could be heading for a situation where the most commercial league in the world, with some of the best players from around the world, is in a country whose national team doesnt care about competing internationally. The international game is the IRBs product so they will need to act to protect it. Something like the FIFA "Financial Fair Play Rules" (where clubs can only spend a proportion of their earned income on wages etc.) is needed but how would that work in the Irish context with central contracts? The George North situation needs to be tackled now, not only would soccer style "buying" of players be bad for the clubs but North seems to be being pushed towards the exit despite having a contract. There needs to be proper rules introduced to regulate transfers to protect both clubs and players.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Welsh rugby is still trying to destroy European rugby. They have tried their best all through the years to destroy the Celtic / Pro12 league (including being momentarilly expelled from the competition) and are desperate to be part of the English Premiership

If the Welsh clubs are looking to get into the EP then they are stupider than their incompetence so far indicates. On the whole, they struggle to compete in the Pro12, a supposedly inferior league, how do they think they can compete in the EP. Were they to join there is a good chance two of their teams would be relegated to the Championship within a couple of seasons. In the dog eat dog world of the EP they wouldnt get any where near the same level of protection from the league as they do in the Celtic League. If the Welsh do look to defect then the Celtic League is finished, in such case, would the IRFU be better approaching the EP and offering our four more successful, financially more stable, better supported provinces instead of the erratic, short-sighted Welsh regions who would be operating without the support of their union? It would be extremely harsh on the Scots and Italians but we would have little choice. If we are left without a league to compete in it is either that or forget about professional rugby here.

thomond2006

I think the Premiership would see joining up with the Irish provinces as more attractive than the Welsh regions tbh: better finances, larger support base, higher prestige/history etc.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think the Premiership would see joining up with the Irish provinces as more attractive than the Welsh regions tbh: better finances, larger support base, higher prestige/history etc.

Support base isn't THAT much greater.

Especially when you consider that a lot of the Premiership teams are very close to the Welsh sides. Gloucester, Bath and Exeter fans would very easilly make the trip. London based sides are only down the M4.

I'd completely disagree to be honest.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Support base isn't THAT much greater.

Especially when you consider that a lot of the Premiership teams are very close to the Welsh sides. Gloucester, Bath and Exeter fans would very easilly make the trip. London based sides are only down the M4.

I'd completely disagree to be honest.

I think thomond was saying that the Irish support base is larger than the Welsh, which it is.

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Support base isn't THAT much greater.

Especially when you consider that a lot of the Premiership teams are very close to the Welsh sides. Gloucester, Bath and Exeter fans would very easilly make the trip. London based sides are only down the M4.

I'd completely disagree to be honest.

I was comparing Irish to Welsh sides there. Irish support base is larger than the Welsh.

Obviously the geography is in the Welsh sides' favour, but there is so much infighting between the regions and the union that would dissuade the Premiership.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

I think thomond was saying that the Irish support base is larger than the Welsh, which it is.

It is at home, but that's not really going to be relevant to the English sides unless they travel for league games, which they won't (relatively)

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It is at home, but that's not really going to be relevant to the English sides unless they travel for league games, which they won't (relatively)

The Welsh sides' futures are very unstable, I think the Premiership wouldn't want to be exposed to problems like that.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Welsh sides' futures are very unstable, I think the Premiership wouldn't want to be exposed to problems like that.

Yeah I agree with that. I don't think they'd want the Welsh for that reason. But I don't think it has anything to do with the history of the provinces or the number of fans at all.

Although I think a UK Mainland league including 3 independent Welsh sides and 2 independent Scottish sides (some of whom would be 2nd tier at times) would be sustainable. And probably more attractive than one including IRFU controlled provinces. But there's no way they'd want any nationally controlled sides involved in the premiership, that would be asking for trouble. And the Welsh regions are dependent on the WRU at the moment AFAIK.

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Welsh sides' futures are very unstable, I think the Premiership wouldn't want to be exposed to problems like that.

The problem with the Welsh sides joining the Premiership is that you would have to find enough weekends in the year to accommodate 16 teams, or you would have to send a couple of English teams down to the second tier; I can't see the AP clubs voting to relegate up to four of their own members...

Also, based on what we've seen the last couple of seasons, the Dragons would be hot favourites to finish very close to the bottom of the league (and Cardiff this season wouldn't be far behind); would the Welsh clubs be willing to countenance a situation where they'd be relegated and end up mixing it with the likes of Esher and Cornish Pirates?

Probably the only way the Welsh and English clubs will end up in bed together is in a new model of league involving no promotion/relegation with the most attractive/successful clubs being brought in by invitation.