Tunnel from Dublin to Holyhead

Vic_08

Judgement Day wrote: »

By the time such an enthusiasts wet dream is built the Irish railway system will have been cut back to a bare Greater Dublin Commuter network: Dublin/Bray; Dublin/Dundalk (maybe); Dublin/Kildare and Dublin/Maynooth. Of course the resulting greenways could then be taken back from the cyclists/walkers etc. and turned into high speed 4ft 8.5" gauge lines.......

Nah, just equip all the cyclists with one of these High Speed Greenway, job done.

I'd be betting a 500m high trebuchet to launch punters over the Irish Sea is more likely than this tunnel.

Figel2

Undersea connections have advanced since Chunnle and now roads and railways are lain upon the seabed(Pusan fixed link) .A fixed link should have 4 lanes of roads and 4 lanes of track .That is 2 high speed lines and 2 freight lines .

A fixed link to Whales should run from the north of Bray to the south of Holyhead a total length of 95 kilometres with 3 artificial islands to provide rest and ventilation . This will mean that 4 tunnels will be built at the same time their by speeding up construction .

The islands should be made with a curtain wall with one gate at the top and 2 holes near the bottom so you can float in tunnel segments and push them against the end of the tunnel completing them .

Once the Tunnels have been completed the islands can be filled with either backfill or buildings which ever is more valuable .

Their should be 2 factories one in Whales and one in Ireland providing work to two disadvantaged areas.

Total cost would be about 70 Billion and take about 15 years from start to finish .

Real nice jobs program program funded by Europe.

kidneyfan

Would Larne Stranraer not make more sense for a tunnel?
Or go via Isle of Man? Dundalk , I of M, Blackpool

Sam Russell

kidneyfan wrote: »

Would Larne Stranraer not make more sense for a tunnel?

Is there not a deep trench there?

GerardKeating

kidneyfan wrote: »

Would Larne Stranraer not make more sense for a tunnel?

Certainly a shorter tunnel, but would Dublin/London traffic want to divert via Scotland.

kidneyfan wrote: »

Or go via Isle of Man? Dundalk , I of M, Blackpool

That would be longer than Dublin-Hollyhead.

GerardKeating

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is there not a deep trench there?

and (if my failing memory serve me) the trench was a dumping ground for munitions after WWII.

Muahahaha

I'd say it'll be a cold day in hell before we see the EU give us €70 billion to build a tunnel. . Ryanair need not worry.

D.L.R.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Dublin is not a small city.

It's a large city. It is not a SUPERCITY like London. Dublin is roughly comparable to Amsterdam, Boston, Oslo, Helsinki, Vienna, Prague and Barcelona.



Enough of this 'Dublin Small City 1970's Sean Barrett' mantra.

^^^ This 'small city' outdated mantra is the reason why Dublin does not have the vast public transport systems of Amsteerdam, Boston, Oslo, Helsinki Vienna, Prague and Barcelona

Boston? Are you high??

Markcheese

Maybe we could do a metro first.. Just as warmup mind -

BonkeyDonker

Markcheese wrote: »

Maybe we could do a metro first.. Just as warmup mind -

Or start the Metro at the airport, turn a bit to the left and keep going?? Probably as much chance of that happening

Sam Russell

Or even start the tunnel west of Heuston and take a rest west of Pearse, turning north at Docklands. After a few years, start again, this time at SSG and head north towards Belfast, stopping for a breather at the Airport. Having done all this, perhaps reconsider the proposal.

spacetweek

Lot of speculation on this thread with people pulling cost figures out of the air and going on about the number of jobs that would be created during construction as if that matters.

Engineers Ireland put out a white paper about 8 years ago that ruled out Dublin-Holyhead on geological grounds. A tunnel would be Rosslare-Pembroke and the inland routing would probably be Rosslare-Waterford-Kilkenny-Portlaoise-Dublin.

Technical and cost issues aren't what would be spanners to the plan though. It's quite simply a numbers game and Ireland doesn't add up. The entire population of the island is only 6 million of which 2-3 are potential users (due to being close enough to one of the planned stations). London and Paris serve a combined immediate catchment of nearly 20 million.

cgcsb

The populations are of little consequence, the international trade and movement of persons between those countries is the key demand indicator. Half of Dublin Airport's 23 million passengers are travelling to the UK per year. You also have vast amounts of cargo on ships that could be moved faster and cheaper by rail freight through a tunnel. The length of the tunnel required is the main challenge, but technology is improving.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

The populations are of little consequence, the international trade and movement of persons between those countries is the key demand indicator. Half of Dublin Airport's 23 million passengers are travelling to the UK per year. You also have vast amounts of cargo on ships that could be moved faster and cheaper by rail freight through a tunnel. The length of the tunnel required is the main challenge, but technology is improving.

Just to point out that ships are by far the cheapest way to deliver freight.

They aren't fast, but they are cheap. If you want fast then flying is the quickest method.

And by doing this you save yourself the billions of cost of building a tunnel.

To be honest the whole idea is ridiculous, we are increasingly looking like we won't even be able to start far more important projects like Dart Underground and Metro North and people are dreaming about super expensive undersea tunnels :rolleyes:

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Just to point out that ships are by far the cheapest way to deliver freight.

They aren't fast, but they are cheap. If you want fast then flying is the quickest method.

I wouldn't be so sure that flying is faster than high speed rail for short/medium distances. Rail also combines bulk (and therfore lower cost) with speed

bk wrote: »

To be honest the whole idea is ridiculous, we are increasingly looking like we won't even be able to start far more important projects like Dart Underground and Metro North and people are dreaming about super expensive undersea tunnels :rolleyes:

Obviously it's not practical in the short term, it is a thread about a hypothetical scenario, and I'd assume that Ireland's infrastructure would be greatly improved before such a scenario could be given serious consideration.

Alun

cgcsb wrote: »

Half of Dublin Airport's 23 million passengers are travelling to the UK per year.

How many of those have the UK as their final destination, and how many are only flying there to fly onwards to other destinations not served directly by Dublin? A tunnel won't have any effect on the first category.

cgcsb

Alun wrote: »

How many of those have the UK as their final destination, and how many are only flying there to fly onwards to other destinations not served directly by Dublin? A tunnel won't have any effect on the first category.

I'd imagine the % of people going to Heathrow to connect is dropping because of BA's high prices and the addition of many more routes to Dublin. Turkish airlines, emirates, lufthansa and Iberia now offer excellent connectivity and are better value than BA. When Dublin get's a second runway capable of accommodating flights from China I'd expect that % to plummet.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure that flying is faster than high speed rail for short/medium distances.

I think the poster was referring to freight. There's very little high speed rail freight. and there won't be any in west Wales

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

I think the poster was referring to freight. There's very little high speed rail freight. and there won't be any in west Wales

freight travels through Europe on trains at 200km/h+

Carawaystick

How much freight though? Article I saw mentioned 120 tonnes on a whole train from Kent to Lyon... that's 3 lorry loads....

kidneyfan

bk wrote: »

Just to point out that ships are by far the cheapest way to deliver freight.

They aren't fast, but they are cheap. If you want fast then flying is the quickest method.

And by doing this you save yourself the billions of cost of building a tunnel.

To be honest the whole idea is ridiculous, we are increasingly looking like we won't even be able to start far more important projects like Dart Underground and Metro North and people are dreaming about super expensive undersea tunnels :rolleyes:

This is dart underground. Tag on at Lansdowne Road and Tag off at the Stade de France. 25 minutes in a frictionless hypertrain.

kidneyfan

cgcsb wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure that flying is faster than high speed rail for short/medium distances. Rail also combines bulk (and therfore lower cost) with speed



Obviously it's not practical in the short term, it is a thread about a hypothetical scenario, and I'd assume that Ireland's infrastructure would be greatly improved before such a scenario could be given serious consideration.

Why not a space elevator

Carawaystick

kidneyfan wrote: »

Why not a space elevator

Ah here, sher they only work from a spot on the equator... :P
We could just build a tunnel there first I suppose.

cgcsb

kidneyfan wrote: »

Why not a space elevator

why not, start a thread about it so.

joujoujou

kidneyfan wrote: »

Why not a space elevator

That's better:

random_guy

Carawaystick wrote: »

How much freight though? Article I saw mentioned 120 tonnes on a whole train from Kent to Lyon... that's 3 lorry loads....

2000+ tonne is fairly common through mainland Europe. There's a few ore/coal trains with 5000t or so (NL/DE). Maximum length is often the deciding factor.

Carawaystick

random_guy wrote: »

2000+ tonne is fairly common through mainland Europe. There's a few ore/coal trains with 5000t or so (NL/DE). Maximum length is often the deciding factor.

At or greater than 200kmh?:eek:

random_guy

Carawaystick wrote: »

At or greater than 200kmh?:eek:

Never heard of that to be honest. Around half sounds about right.
There's an exception for the TGV Postal but that's a bit different.

Nermal

spacetweek wrote: »

Engineers Ireland put out a white paper about 8 years ago that ruled out Dublin-Holyhead on geological grounds.

Had a look at the report and couldn't spot that - any more information?

Carawaystick

random_guy wrote: »

Never heard of that to be honest. Around half sounds about right.
There's an exception for the TGV Postal but that's a bit different.

cgcsb in post 170 mentioned freight at high speed.

Victor

kidneyfan wrote: »

Why not a space elevator

I've deleted your other post. If you want to discuss space elevators, start a thread.

Disruptive posting not welcome.

Moderator

Deedsie

Is there any project in the world similar in scale to this one? It's an interesting idea and as much as people want to rubbish it as never going to happen (which it probably won't) I have to say I like the idea of it at least. A train line from Belfast to London via Dublin would be appealing to a lot of potential users in Britain and Ireland.

QuinDixie

This could be done but wont, it would take years and the costs would be billions and deaths would be high.
Could you imagine the maintenance on that distance, that alone would cost millions per year.
Its a non starter and no colour paper is going to change that.

Deedsie

QuinDixie wrote: »

This could be done but wont, it would take years and the costs would be billions and deaths would be high.
Could you imagine the maintenance on that distance, that alone would cost millions per year.
Its a non starter and no colour paper is going to change that.

I'm not being a grammar nazi here but did you mean debts or deaths? It's not worth 1 death. It could be argued that the maintenance of the tunnel would create significant employment and generate increased tourism between Britain and Ireland which would also increase revenue. It would also have to be tolled which would also contribute towards maintenance?

I know this won't happen but it is interesting nonetheless.

StonyIron

I can't see it happening unless Ireland's population hits about 30 million.

The channel tunnel connects two massively populated areas probably about 30m in reach on the british side and close on 100m in Paris & NE France, Benelux and Northwestern Germany.

It's actually connecting England into what is basically the most densely populated and wealthiest, most economically active area in Europe. Other than the channel being there, Southern England is basically part of the same high density area.

It also connects a huge consumer market to high speed freight.

Ireland's not even in the same ballpark as this.

The alternative of connecting Larne to Scotland primarily focused on freight transport might actually make more sense.

The downside is location is too far north to be practical for passenger traffic and you'd require high speed rail links on both Ireland and Britain to make it even slightly viable. Aviation would still beat it on time and cost.

Northern Ireland's unstable politics wouldn't be too conducive to pumping money into it either.

Sam Russell

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any project in the world similar in scale to this one? It's an interesting idea and as much as people want to rubbish it as never going to happen (which it probably won't) I have to say I like the idea of it at least. A train line from Belfast to London via Dublin would be appealing to a lot of potential users in Britain and Ireland.

Particularly if UK votes to leave the EU.

QuinDixie

Deedsie wrote: »

I'm not being a grammar nazi here but did you mean debts or deaths? It's not worth 1 death. It could be argued that the maintenance of the tunnel would create significant employment and generate increased tourism between Britain and Ireland which would also increase revenue. It would also have to be tolled which would also contribute towards maintenance?

I know this won't happen but it is interesting nonetheless.

D E A T H S.
Go be a momo somewhere else. I am all out if medals.

Deedsie

StonyIron wrote: »

I can't see it happening unless Ireland's population hits about 30 million.

The channel tunnel connects two massively populated areas probably about 30m in reach on the british side and close on 100m in Paris & NE France, Benelux and Northwestern Germany.

It's actually connecting England into what is basically the most densely populated and wealthiest, most economically active area in Europe. Other than the channel being there, Southern England is basically part of the same high density area.

It also connects a huge consumer market to high speed freight.

Ireland's not even in the same ballpark as this.

The alternative of connecting Larne to Scotland primarily focused on freight transport might actually make more sense.

The downside is location is too far north to be practical for passenger traffic and you'd require high speed rail links on both Ireland and Britain to make it even slightly viable. Aviation would still beat it on time and cost.

Northern Ireland's unstable politics wouldn't be too conducive to pumping money into it either.

I think Ireland's population (Irish Republic) is expected to be 7 million in 2050 and Northern Ireland is expected to be 3 million. So the for the ~ 40th Dáil and the devolved Northern Ireland government in 2050 this could be a real debate.

10 million people in Ireland and another ~ 10 million British travellers to Ireland could make it a possibly more viable project?

Markcheese

Deedsie wrote: »

I think Ireland's population (Irish Republic) is expected to be 7 million in 2050 and Northern Ireland is expected to be 3 million. So the for the ~ 40th Dáil and the devolved Northern Ireland government in 2050 this could be a real debate.

10 million people in Ireland and another ~ 10 million British travellers to Ireland could make it a possibly more viable project?

Even at that it's a non runner- there's decent ferry services serving all the way from South Wales to Scotland (there'd only be one tunnel ) and most people will still fly anyway !

monument

Markcheese wrote: »

Even at that it's a non runner- there's decent ferry services serving all the way from South Wales to Scotland (there'd only be one tunnel ) and most people will still fly anyway !

Whatever about saying it's not viable, comparing a ferry to a tunnel is pointless -- both are not comparable.

Markcheese

monument wrote: »

Whatever about saying it's not viable, comparing a ferry to a tunnel is pointless -- both are not comparable.

Well obviously they're different - but as ways of getting a car or truck across the Irish Sea (or completing a rail journey) I'd say they're comparable - the last time I went England -France I compared ferry and euro tunnel -I went with a ferry -

Deedsie

Markcheese wrote: »

Even at that it's a non runner- there's decent ferry services serving all the way from South Wales to Scotland (there'd only be one tunnel ) and most people will still fly anyway !

Of course it's a non runner. It's still an interesting proposal. Flying to the moon was not economically viable yet it was still a interesting project. Metro North is no longer financially viable, should we just stop discussing it now?

I don't think one person on this thread ever seriously sees this happening.

Surely Dunbur Head to Aberdaron would be the most sensible location for the tunnel? There would be plenty of land availability on both sides for a euro rail station etc? The E01 motorway from Larne to Rosslare would provide motorway access to the tunnel all along the East Coast of Ireland? The rail network would need to be upgraded between Belfast to Dunbur head.

Sam Russell

There is a very deep dyke to get past. You would be better looking at Rosslare to Fishguard with an artificial island on the sand banks on the way.

Tunnels and bridges could be used. Tunnels are not subject to weather but would be subject to fumes from motor vehicles (unless they are all electric by the time it gets built). Bridges are subject to weather but not fumes.

It is all far from likely, unless the EU pays for it all.

cgcsb

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there any project in the world similar in scale to this one? It's an interesting idea and as much as people want to rubbish it as never going to happen (which it probably won't) I have to say I like the idea of it at least. A train line from Belfast to London via Dublin would be appealing to a lot of potential users in Britain and Ireland.

Japan and South Korea are considering a project like this one. If they go ahead with it, the experience will add greatly to the tunneling industry internationally, perhaps even reduce costs for such future projects.