Blatant taking advantage of services - why do we support it?

Grand Moff Tarkin

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yes we should think of the kids, and if they are being trained in criminality then a stop must be put to that, if we allow that to continue we,as a society are failing in our duty.

How would you go about putting a stop to it?

shopaholic01

I don't have a viable solution but putting children into the care of the state is unlikely to help. The state has a poor record of caring for these children - 196 children died in state care from 2000-2010.

Gatling

The problem with people is a lot don't believe in consequences for any wrong doing ,
Its always somebodys else's problem till it directly involve's them

Phoebas

Taltos wrote: »

Never said the children were guilty - but if we want to break this cycle - lets take them from this "family", place them into care, give them an education and shape them into valuable members of society.

You have an over generous opinion of our care system.

Phoebas

tails_naf wrote: »

A recent case in my local town - a family that were given a free house...

You mean a family began renting local authority housing?

end of the road

Taltos wrote: »

if we want to break this cycle - lets take them from this "family", place them into care, give them an education and shape them into valuable members of society.

yeah exactly, because the irish care system is so fantastic at that type of stuff isn't it, oh wait

For Paws

Phoebas wrote: »

You mean a family began renting local authority housing?

Excellent point Phoebas. The family are indeed paying rent to their local authority. Perhaps they are honest hard working folk with an unfortunate, and it seems, considerable propensity for accidental breakages in and around their home.

Then again, perhaps they are not in employment and pay their rent out of the sums allowed them under our Social Welfare system. If effect the tax payer gives them some money and they give back a portion of that money in return for housing.
So obviously it is not a free house. WE ARE PAYING FOR IT !

suicide_circus

Madam_X wrote: »

Btw they're charged rent, the house isn't "free". I understand the anger but making stuff up is unnecessary.

where do they get the money to pay this rent?

Phoebas

suicide_circus wrote: »

where do they get the money to pay this rent?

The OP didn't say.

hatrickpatrick

To play Devil's Advocate here for a second, houses require maintanence and upkeep, and things such as broken windows and broken hinges can very easily happen either by accident or through such fixtures simply being too old and rusty. One of the presses in my kitchen came off its hinges a couple of days ago and I assure you there was no abuse involved, it's just one of those things. It had been there for 10 years so it's not unreasonable.

Now whether or not it's the council's or the tenants' responsibility to maintain the house and its state of repair is another argument entirely, but to suggest that broken windows or hinges are 100% definitely caused by vandalism or carelessness is a bit much.

shruikan2553

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To play Devil's Advocate here for a second, houses require maintanence and upkeep, and things such as broken windows and broken hinges can very easily happen either by accident or through such fixtures simply being too old and rusty. One of the presses in my kitchen came off its hinges a couple of days ago and I assure you there was no abuse involved, it's just one of those things. It had been there for 10 years so it's not unreasonable.

Now whether or not it's the council's or the tenants' responsibility to maintain the house and its state of repair is another argument entirely, but to suggest that broken windows or hinges are 100% definitely caused by vandalism or carelessness is a bit much.

Accidents happen but how likely is it that you would have to move out from all these accidents adding up?

If people damage a house it can come out of their money, require proof of spending for bills and food. Cant explain where 20 euro went? Then you must not need it and will be put towards the repairs.

tails_naf

Phoebas wrote: »

The OP didn't say.

For paws put it excellently, any rent comes directly from other hand outs. It's well known that none of that family have held a job, so it comes out of SW, or other dealings. Funnily, there are plenty of vans and cars around, however they managed to pay for them. I think a CAB like effort for these people would be very interesting indeed.

tails_naf

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To play Devil's Advocate here for a second, houses require maintanence and upkeep, and things such as broken windows and broken hinges can very easily happen either by accident or through such fixtures simply being too old and rusty. One of the presses in my kitchen came off its hinges a couple of days ago and I assure you there was no abuse involved, it's just one of those things. It had been there for 10 years so it's not unreasonable.

Now whether or not it's the council's or the tenants' responsibility to maintain the house and its state of repair is another argument entirely, but to suggest that broken windows or hinges are 100% definitely caused by vandalism or carelessness is a bit much.

The house in this case was trashed. It looked as if a wild animal had been let loose in there.

wicklowstevo

The rate of rents being paid in such a situation as this would be tiny, ive known it to be as low as ten euro.

ive also known cases where familys have been put out of social housing and not rehoused . for anti social behavior etc . thats a long and slow processes though that takes years. in four years that family turned a new house in a nice estate into a unliveable wreck with no copper piping and human waste smeared on the walls and floor,

i believe that the familys solution was to move twenty miles south into the next county council area

hfallada

I think a majority of people respect the houses they are given. Aren't most of the council apartments passed down from generation to generation in the inner city.

It's hard to believe the best way to a get an apartment in the city centre beside Stephens green is not to work at all. Because if you work hard you can't get a council house and end in a communter town in the middle of nowhere in a ton of negative equity.

morlock_

If you work hard and do the right thing in Ireland, you get penalised for it.

Sponge Bob

tails_naf wrote: »

The thing is, when the house was given to them a few years ago, it was just fine - so any damage has been self inflicted.

They are now looking for a new, nicer place. This same group are locally known to be petty thieves and not people to cross, etc.

So any ideas why this is allowed?

It is allowed because local authorities do not balance a right to housing with an obligation not to damage the same housing. They should.

There may be extenuating circumstances you don't know about, eg widespread chronic mental illness.

Death and Taxes

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

How would you go about putting a stop to it?

If they are not fit to raise kids then the kids need to be removed from the situation.

Airitech

WileyCoyote wrote: »

If they are not fit to raise kids then the kids need to be removed from the situation.

Someone else said we don't have the infrastructure to do this but I think it's the best solution. If I have to pay more tax to fund building that infrastructure that's fine. In the long term it's in everyone's best interests that those children get a proper chance at life.

wexie

Airitech wrote: »

Someone else said we don't have the infrastructure to do this but I think it's the best solution. If I have to pay more tax to fund building that infrastructure that's fine. In the long term it's in everyone's best interests that those children get a proper chance at life.

Plenty of people in Ireland that have both the means and cop-on to raise kids properly are currently spending fortunes adopting children from all over the world....

Would be a tricky one to get implemented though...

crockholm

wexie wrote: »

Plenty of people in Ireland that have both the means and cop-on to raise kids properly are currently spending fortunes adopting children from all over the world....

Would be a tricky one to get implemented though...

If I may stick my beak in here..............

The mother in law in Sweden takes in foster kids, the state rigorously looks into broken families and is not afraid to act accordingly, kids taken away and closely monitored.

The 2 kids she has now,brother and sister, came to her when they were 11 & 9, neither could read or even tell the time.

They are now 15 and 13 and although the elder boy wont make university(most likely go for a trade)the girl,with a bit of hard work might. The older siblings are in and out of prison the whole time, state intervention clearly better in this case.

I remember the young kids maybe 4-5 standing in the rain without rainclothes while ma was chuggin cider on Eden Quay. Zero chance in the status quo

Push Pop

tails_naf wrote: »

This post is not targeting any particular group of people, but instead is about a behaviour of some people.

A recent case in my local town - a family that were given a free house a few years ago reported on the conditions in the house now, and how it is unsuitable for living in. Broken windows all over, internal doors hanging off or missing entirely, holes in walls, and filth everywhere.

The thing is, when the house was given to them a few years ago, it was just fine - so any damage has been self inflicted.

They are now looking for a new, nicer place. This same group are locally known to be petty thieves and not people to cross, etc.

So the questions really have to be asked:

Who supports the system we have where they will in all likelihood be given a new house, with zero effort or cost to them?

What political motivation do we have to spend money in this way, which is actually encouraging the behaviour, and means the next generation will likely be worse and feel more entitled than the last?

Especially given the crime element too - surely at the very least, being involved in crime should see a reduction or modification of hand-outs?

Granted this is an extreme case, but surely if this cannot be tackled properly then the example it is giving is a poor one.

So any ideas why this is allowed?

Are you in Longford, Galway or Wexford by any chance? (Or West Dublin??)

Chucken

wicklowstevo wrote: »

The rate of rents being paid in such a situation as this would be tiny, ive known it to be as low as ten euro.

Where was that? 1980?

wexie

crockholm wrote: »

Zero chance in the status quo

Don't get me wrong, I'd be all for giving these kids a proper chance, even if it meant taking them from their parents. However I think there'll be lots of people screaming all kinds of nastiness demanding more resources be aligned with 'giving the parents the 'proper support' to create a nurturing environment....' and such nonsense...

As far as I'm concerned a decent parent will sacrifice pretty much anything in their own lives to make sure their kids get as good a start in their lives as they can be given. If your alcohol/drugs/cigarettes/gambling/comfort/whatever are more important to you than feeding/clothing/educating your kids then you don't deserve them.

<queue lots of bleedin heart treehugging liberals bemoaning the fact that the parents didn't have enough playgrounds, fleece blankies and fluffly marshmallows and we need to be more lenient and understanding, they'll come around eventually>

Cantona's Collars

Push Pop wrote: »

Are you in Longford, Galway or Wexford by any chance? (Or West Dublin??)

Was just gonna mention Co.Wexford,there's a family in my town that fit the bill perfectly as the one the op mentioned.
They get a house,wreck until it's barely habitable,put a request into the council and get moved to another house to repeat the process.

I spoke to one of the guys who had to go in and clean up one of the houses they had vacated and he said it was one of the worst he'd ever seen.Dirty nappies in wardrobes and presses,a corner of one room looked as if it had been used as a toilet,the garden was infested with rats due to the mountain of rubbish left in it.
Yet these 'people' got another house handed to them and did the same to it.They are always getting handouts from social welfare and community welfare officers with no questions asked and now their kids are old enough to do the same and so the cycle continues.

AlekSmart

tails_naf wrote: »

This post is not targeting any particular group of people, but instead is about a behaviour of some people.

A recent case in my local town - a family that were given a free house a few years ago reported on the conditions in the house now, and how it is unsuitable for living in. Broken windows all over, internal doors hanging off or missing entirely, holes in walls, and filth everywhere.

The thing is, when the house was given to them a few years ago, it was just fine - so any damage has been self inflicted.

They are now looking for a new, nicer place. This same group are locally known to be petty thieves and not people to cross, etc.

So the questions really have to be asked:

Who supports the system we have where they will in all likelihood be given a new house, with zero effort or cost to them?

What political motivation do we have to spend money in this way, which is actually encouraging the behaviour, and means the next generation will likely be worse and feel more entitled than the last?

Especially given the crime element too - surely at the very least, being involved in crime should see a reduction or modification of hand-outs?

Granted this is an extreme case, but surely if this cannot be tackled properly then the example it is giving is a poor one.

So any ideas why this is allowed?

It's worth pointing out that this behaviour is not confined to Council Tenants.

Over the past 10 years,through personal contacts in the Private Rental sector,I've seen similar trashing of high-standard flats/houses for no good reason other than mental instability.

For the Private Landlord it's a steep learning curve,and swiftly leads to VERY thorough checks on references along with VERY clear deposit policy,both of which tend to be regarded as evidence of being a Nasty Unscrupulous Landlord in some circles.

It's eye-opening how many Individual's and Families are mooching around the place,going from house to house,flat to flat,leaving a trail of destruction behind them.

It's societys fault I guess ?

wmpdd3

Fromthetrees wrote: »

The kids in that house are still innocent and are not guilty of their parents crimes. The state has an obligation to house them.

If you start taking children off people more regularly then we create more problems.

What we have now is an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

I worked with a guy who was housed in terrible circumstances, he's now at the top of his game, he had no help from his family in getting there.

His family are still where he left him and won't speak to him as he will not give them money without informing the Social Welfare office first so their means can be assessed.

crockholm

wexie wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'd be all for giving these kids a proper chance, even if it meant taking them from their parents. However I think there'll be lots of people screaming all kinds of nastiness demanding more resources be aligned with 'giving the parents the 'proper support' to create a nurturing environment....' and such nonsense...

As far as I'm concerned a decent parent will sacrifice pretty much anything in their own lives to make sure their kids get as good a start in their lives as they can be given. If your alcohol/drugs/cigarettes/gambling/comfort/whatever are more important to you than feeding/clothing/educating your kids then you don't deserve them.

<queue lots of bleedin heart treehugging liberals bemoaning the fact that the parents didn't have enough playgrounds, fleece blankies and fluffly marshmallows and we need to be more lenient and understanding, they'll come around eventually>

Well, we gotta make a stand.Return to the old failed methods that keep churning out the same results, or start getting serious and being pro-active.That little girl I saw on the Eden Quay boardwalk shivering from the cold and the rain has been failed, by her parents and the state.

Grand Moff Tarkin

WileyCoyote wrote: »

If they are not fit to raise kids then the kids need to be removed from the situation.

With the HSE track record looking after kids???


Are you for real. I would not trust them to look after a cat never mind a child.

3ndahalfof6

So they were given a house a few years ago and the OP was there to see the condition of the house at the time, not only that but you have been back to see what condition it is in now, exactly how long in your book is a few years and is that the reality of the time they have spent there,

are they paying rent (I would be guessing they are) so has the landlord kept the house in good condition if they were reporting problems as they were happening, or have they had to wait and wait and wait, till it got so bad they felt their rent was paying for a lesser abode than the one they originally moved into,

or should they upkeep the property in all ways regardless of any responsibility to the land lord,

two sides to every coin.