Cycling in Dublin, driver behaviour

I've been cycling in Dublin city for about a month now, and I'm beginning to seriously dislike it. Mostly down to car drivers and excessive use of their horns.

Yesterday I was on O'Connell Street in the southbound cycle lane, when a driver of a 40 bus beeped at me. He could have just let me pass but instead I had to stop so he could pull in in front of me and load up.

Today I was going along Ballyfermot Road away from the city centre. I was heading straight ahead, so on the roundabout I signalled right before the first exit, as the rules of the road says. A car which was coming behind me (so not already on the roundabout) and going to the Kylemore Road exit (before mine) beeped me and hurled abuse at me. I don't know if I was doing something wrong or if he thought my hand signal made him think I was pulling out in front of him.

On the way back I had it again in Summerhill, though this time it was because I didn't set off from a green light in time, that was my bad so I'll put my hand up for that one.

Is this part and parcel of cycling in Dublin or am I a total idiot? It's really putting me off at such an early stage.

MarkR

Karsini wrote: »

I've been cycling in Dublin city for about a month now, and I'm beginning to seriously dislike it. Mostly down to car drivers and excessive use of their horns.

Yesterday I was on O'Connell Street in the southbound cycle lane, when a driver of a 40 bus beeped at me. He could have just let me pass but instead I had to stop so he could pull in in front of me and load up.

Today I was going along Ballyfermot Road away from the city centre. I was heading straight ahead, so on the roundabout I signalled right before the first exit, as the rules of the road says. A car which was coming behind me (so not already on the roundabout) and going to the Kylemore Road exit (before mine) beeped me and hurled abuse at me. I don't know if I was doing something wrong or if he thought my hand signal made him think I was pulling out in front of him.

On the way back I had it again in Summerhill, though this time it was because I didn't set off from a green light in time, that was my bad so I'll put my hand up for that one.

Is this part and parcel of cycling in Dublin or am I a total idiot? It's really putting me off at such an early stage.

When you say 'signal right before exit', do you mean you signal left immediately after first exit, or for some reason you signal you are turning right?

MarkR

MarkR wrote: »

When you say 'signal right before exit', do you mean you signal left immediately after first exit, or for some reason you signal you are turning right?

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_on-roundabouts.html

According to that it implies that you signal right before the first exit, then left before the second. I was going through the second exit.

Zyzz

Karsini wrote: »

I've been cycling in Dublin city for about a month now, and I'm beginning to seriously dislike it. Mostly down to car drivers and excessive use of their horns.

Yesterday I was on O'Connell Street in the southbound cycle lane, when a driver of a 40 bus beeped at me. He could have just let me pass but instead I had to stop so he could pull in in front of me and load up.

Today I was going along Ballyfermot Road away from the city centre. I was heading straight ahead, so on the roundabout I signalled right before the first exit, as the rules of the road says. A car which was coming behind me (so not already on the roundabout) and going to the Kylemore Road exit (before mine) beeped me and hurled abuse at me. I don't know if I was doing something wrong or if he thought my hand signal made him think I was pulling out in front of him.

On the way back I had it again in Summerhill, though this time it was because I didn't set off from a green light in time, that was my bad so I'll put my hand up for that one.

Is this part and parcel of cycling in Dublin or am I a total idiot? It's really putting me off at such an early stage.

Yes.

Other road users don't like cyclists, simple as. (the majority*)

If you feel it is abusive/dangerous behaviour, get yourself a cheap camera (or whatever your budget is) and report the drivers to the Gardai.

galwaycyclist

Karsini wrote: »

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_on-roundabouts.html

According to that it implies that you signal right before the first exit, then left before the second. I was going through the second exit.

Hmm well spotted - that does seem to be what is in the diagram. It has no basis in law to my knowledge. Welcome to road user education Irish "shtyle". That said the persons who beeped at you although possibly "qualified" are likely to have a limited understanding of traffic law as well.

Combine this with the absence of an effective informed police service and there is some potential for anarchy.

MarkR

I treat cyclists (and most other road users) like they could go in any direction on a roundabout, including straight up!

I would have (wrongly) assumed you were changing lanes to the inside of the roundabout from the right signal. Learn something new everyday, thanks.

Mr.Fred

Karsini wrote: »

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-pedestrians-cyclists-motorcyclists/cyclists/cyclists_on-roundabouts.html

According to that it implies that you signal right before the first exit, then left before the second. I was going through the second exit.

That's a bit misleading.

I would've assumed you were planning on taking the exit after with that indication.

I wouldn't be indicating like that for fear a driver would think the same and try cut up the iside of me.

I think some drivers forget that it's a father,son,mother,daughter,husband,wife cycling the bike and just seem the cyclist as a hindrance on their journey.

Keep safe op and don't attempt proving a point always give way you'll never win an arguement with a car or bus.

Agent Smyth

My understanding of roundabout rules for all road users are,
As you approach a roundabout indicate or signal left,
If taking the first exit keep your indicator on,
If going straight through (as in second exit) turn off indicator on joining roundabout and indicate left half way across first exit
If going for third exit or back the way you came indicate right as you are on the roundabout and left as you are approaching your exit

couerdelion

Agent Smyth wrote: »

My understanding of roundabout rules for all road users are,
As you approach a roundabout indicate or signal left,
If taking the first exit keep your indicator on,
If going straight through (as in second exit) turn off indicator on joining roundabout and indicate left half way across first exit
If going for third exit or back the way you came indicate right as you are on the roundabout and left as you are approaching your exit

If you were coming to a roundabout an put your indicator on to turn left I'd assume you were going left and that the reason it had gone off was because it had automatically cancelled itself.

Way I was taught was if you are going past 12 o'clock indicate right coming on to the roundabout. If you're takingthe first left then indicate left. Other than that indicate left after youve passed the exit before yours.

Qualitymark

Part of the problem is that Irish drivers don't understand how the horn should be used; it's a device for politely warning people, not for expressing your rudeness.

The State could make some nice money out of on-the-spot fines for incorrect use of the horn!

On the other hand, if I were manufacturing cars, I'd have two horns, with buttons on different sides of the wheel; one, a gentle chiming sound, for "excuse me, are you aware that the lights have changed", etc, the other for "****! There's a 3-tonne truck coming at you!"

adamski8

A bit of beeping isnt the worst thing to be happening. Id say that at least your being seen by motorists who are just frustrated at you being an inconvience to them.

Ireland drivers sparingly use their comimg to most countries

rollingscone

What they ↑ said:

Motorists are so deluded on their long drive to obesity that they would rather risk your own life than endure a minor inconvenience.

Take the power back and cycle defensively, that means asserting your place on the road (granted, keeping to the left most of the time) and maintaining a high level of awareness of what's around you, as well as thinking of the stupidest, most reckless things other road users could do at that moment and assuming that they'll do it.

Plutonium Kun

I think Irish drivers have a real problem with roundabouts, its surprising the number of people who struggle to realise that cyclists actually do have the right of way once they are on the roundabout. The problem is that local authorities make the situation worse by weird and inconsistent bike paths at these junctions creating even more ambiguity.

Dermot Illogical

Karsini wrote: »

I was heading straight ahead, so on the roundabout I signalled right before the first exit, as the rules of the road says.

Where does it say that? You should only indicate right on a roundabout if you're turning right. You don't give any indication if going straight on. Why would you? You're not turning.

While on the roundabout you indicate left when your exit is next, but that's it. Anything else is wrong, and only serves to confuse.

Dermot Illogical

Agent Smyth wrote: »

My understanding of roundabout rules for all road users are,
As you approach a roundabout indicate or signal left,
If taking the first exit keep your indicator on,
If going straight through (as in second exit) turn off indicator on joining roundabout and indicate left half way across first exit
If going for third exit or back the way you came indicate right as you are on the roundabout and left as you are approaching your exit

Your understanding is wrong.
Only indicate if you intend to turn left or right.
Left indicator if you're going left, right if you're going right.
When your exit is next, indicate left.

Agent Smyth

just read the ROTR and you are right
If going for a later turn indicate right when approaching a roundabout

Shaunie306

I hate driving in Dublin due to cyclists, I used to cycle quiet a bit but now cyclists seem to have a chip on there shoulder, Only yesterday I nearly killed one in Navan after I acclerated away from the lights and he decided to break the red, I had only gone green and perhaps he thought he had time, He didn't and I was forced to stop again in the middle of the junction, asshat.

I live in a rural area and we get a lot of cyclists through the village, They stop here aswell, which is great, but they lie there bikes down on the road and expect the locals to drive around them on a country road, there is plent of space in the carpark beside them, they just like to be awkward, I would like to say that this is an isolated incident but its not, Its every Sunday, It took a threat to cross all the bikes for them to move them, I had no intention to do so but they should respect the locals and their safety.

In Dublin last year while stopped at the lights a cyclist pulled up beside me and laid his gloved hand(gloves trap little pebbles etc) on my bonnet, After a quick beep he just stared me out of it, Then ignored me, So I shouted at him to remove his hand, its my car, I spend hours looking after it and I dont expect it to be touched without my premission, He flipped the bird and then broke the lights, What a lovely person,


Anyway in general what I am trying to say is we all share the responsibility for the general safety, I always gives as much space as I can with cyclists after a local lad was killed after falling off the back of his brother bicycle directly in front of a car which was tragic, Cyclists rarely follow traffic lights, Use sufficient safety or lighting gear, Dont give cars space where they could and make it safer for themselves and others, Instead the car driver is seen as the enemy, I don't want to but slowly and surely I am beginning to hate cyclists, which is a sweeping statement but compared the our European counterparts our cyclists are poor(as are our driving).

DirkVoodoo

That ROTR thing is a joke, I can see where it would confuse a driver.

Still, he should have been driving sufficiently far behind you and had no reason to use the horn.

seamus

6 years cycling in Dublin now, I don't find a dangerous or stressful experience at all. In my experience you're far more likely to have a car ride on your ass or overtake dangerously out on a country road than in the city. Probably because they expect to be able to drive at 80km/h out in the country.

As mentioned above, your signalling on the roundabout was incorrect, so the driver was understandably frustrated. Still no excuse for shouting abuse at you though. Just blow them a kiss and leave them on their way. You'll never encounter them again, so getting worked up about it is a waste of time.

The city centre can be busy with busses and they can be in a hurry, so you need to avoid giving them space to squeeze by you. If there's enough room for a proper overtake, great. But if it's a single lane, then keep to the centre of the lane, don't hug the kerb. O'Connell St is particularly bad for aggressive busses and taxis. Screw the cycle lane, ride in the middle of the traffic lane and try to keep your speed up. Speed limit there is 30km/h anyway, so you're not holding anyone up. If you ride on the left edge of O'Connell street you will continually have taxis turning left across you and busses pulling in on top of you. Riding in the centre of the lane forces them to give you room. The same is true of a lot of other streets in that 30km/h zone - Westmoreland st, Dame st, Nassau St.

Mcofferon

Agent Smyth wrote: »

just read the ROTR and you are right
If going for a later turn indicate right when approaching a roundabout

I think this is also illustrated in part of the new RSA advert featuring cyclist. I saw the cyclist signalling right when passing the junction.

To me this seems counter-intuitive and was certainly not the norm when I passed my car and motorcycle tests, but hat was so long ago it reall shouldn't count. Also it was in the UK so practices may be different.

Getting back to the OPs theme, it's easy to feel intimidated when first riding around Dublin, as some motorists here seem to be actively aggressive. Just stick with it, as your confidence builds you'll recognise that their outbursts are just highlighting their own bad habits and poor behaviour. I find it best to be obvious and positive in my cycling and be polite.

seamus

The cyclist is the RSA ad is signalling right to indicate his intention to change road position into the centre of the lane. But yes that's confusing as it could be seen as indicating an intention to go straight on.

Qualitymark

Shaunie306 wrote: »

Only yesterday I nearly killed one in Navan after I acclerated away from the lights and he decided to break the red, I had only gone green and perhaps he thought he had time, He didn't and I was forced to stop again in the middle of the junction, asshat.

Rather than immediately blaming the cyclist, perhaps you should go back and check the lights - some lights change very fast from green to red.

You accelerated away from the lights, you say? I hope your insurance company doesn't see this - that isn't safe driving behaviour. Lucky the cyclist wasn't a child who'd stop, confused, and freeze.

Dermot Illogical

Qualitymark wrote: »

Rather than immediately blaming the cyclist, perhaps you should go back and check the lights - some lights change very fast from green to red.

You accelerated away from the lights, you say? I hope your insurance company doesn't see this - that isn't safe driving behaviour. Lucky the cyclist wasn't a child who'd stop, confused, and freeze.

Ah give it a rest!
We all know RLJs are the norm, and how else would you drive if you didn't accelerate? It's how cars work!

Qualitymark

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

RLJs

?

Dermot Illogical

Qualitymark wrote: »

?

Red light jumpers. The phenomenon sweeping across the nation.

Qualitymark

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Red light jumpers. The phenomenon sweeping across the nation.

Ah. I would have guessed that. Not.

Yes, cyclists jump lights; the new system of on-the-spot fines will, I hope, put a stop to this. But the fact that some do this doesn't mean that lights aren't wrongly adjusted.

And the word 'accelerated' used by the poster above is generally used to mean 'put my foot down on the accelerator and zoomed off'. Normally you'd use the word 'drove' if you meant proceeding at a normal speed.

Perhaps I'm a little antsy about people who accelerate away from lights. A friend of mine was killed while working in Dublin 4 some years ago, by a youth in a Porsche who took off just as the lights changed. His body was thrown 90 feet, if I remember right.

Dermot Illogical

Qualitymark wrote: »

Ah. I would have guessed that. Not.

Yes, cyclists jump lights; the new system of on-the-spot fines will, I hope, put a stop to this. But the fact that some do this doesn't mean that lights aren't wrongly adjusted.

And the word 'accelerated' used by the poster above is generally used to mean 'put my foot down on the accelerator and zoomed off'. Normally you'd use the word 'drove' if you meant proceeding at a normal speed.

Perhaps I'm a little antsy about people who accelerate away from lights. A friend of mine was killed while working in Dublin 4 some years ago, by a youth in a Porsche who took off just as the lights changed. His body was thrown 90 feet, if I remember right.

RLJ is just another TLA*. You pick them up as you go along.

And I'm with you on the OTS fines (See, another one!). Hopefully they'll be dished out like snuff used to be at wakes and confetti once was at weddings.

As for drive/accelerate, I would use accelerate. To me it's the correct term.






*Three Letter Acronym

Qualitymark

Would you not think TLAs are LSO*?

No, 'accelerate' carries within it the implication of increased speed. If you go into court and say "I accelerated away from the lights, Your Honour", you'll be more likely to be blamed for the accident than if you say "I drove away from the lights".






































*Lazy Showing Off

Dermot Illogical

Qualitymark wrote: »

No, 'accelerate' carries within it the implication of increased speed. If you go into court and say "I accelerated away from the lights, Your Honour", you'll be more likely to be blamed for the accident than if you say "I drove away from the lights".

Well of course it does! When you accelerate you increase speed. That's the whole idea.
You don't need to do it rapidly though. "Accelerate slowly from the lights" is not something you'd be shocked to hear a driving instructor say to a student. "He accelerated rapidly" is not something you'd be shocked to hear in a court.
Assuming that acceleration is always rapid is a lazy misinterpretation. Courts tend to be quite pedantic when it comes to interpretation of language in my experience so I find your example implausible.

Brian_Zeluz

Qualitymark wrote: »

No, 'accelerate' carries within it the implication of increased speed.

No 'accelerate' IS the change (increase) of velocity (speed). There is no implication, that's a definition. Driving away from the lights is accelerating, it is not possible to change from a stationary to a moving state without a change in speed (acceleration).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=accelerate

rollingscone

Shaunie306 wrote: »

I hate driving in Dublin due to cyclists, I used to cycle quiet a bit but now cyclists seem to have a chip on there shoulder, Only yesterday I nearly killed one in Navan after I acclerated away from the lights and he decided to break the red, I had only gone green and perhaps he thought he had time, He didn't and I was forced to stop again in the middle of the junction, asshat.

I live in a rural area and we get a lot of cyclists through the village, They stop here aswell, which is great, but they lie there bikes down on the road and expect the locals to drive around them on a country road, there is plent of space in the carpark beside them, they just like to be awkward, I would like to say that this is an isolated incident but its not, Its every Sunday, It took a threat to cross all the bikes for them to move them, I had no intention to do so but they should respect the locals and their safety.

In Dublin last year while stopped at the lights a cyclist pulled up beside me and laid his gloved hand(gloves trap little pebbles etc) on my bonnet, After a quick beep he just stared me out of it, Then ignored me, So I shouted at him to remove his hand, its my car, I spend hours looking after it and I dont expect it to be touched without my premission, He flipped the bird and then broke the lights, What a lovely person,


Anyway in general what I am trying to say is we all share the responsibility for the general safety, I always gives as much space as I can with cyclists after a local lad was killed after falling off the back of his brother bicycle directly in front of a car which was tragic, Cyclists rarely follow traffic lights, Use sufficient safety or lighting gear, Dont give cars space where they could and make it safer for themselves and others, Instead the car driver is seen as the enemy, I don't want to but slowly and surely I am beginning to hate cyclists, which is a sweeping statement but compared the our European counterparts our cyclists are poor(as are our driving).

You won't find much love for red light jumpers here.

But cyclists have a right to use the road and motorists tend to ignore this by creating fantasy discourses about cyclists as a threat and magic grit gloves

Captain Havoc

Personally I don't like the think of drivers and cyclists, I hear some woeful bull**** from people. Cyclists think and drivers think, as a cyclist and a driver I can tell you what each think, differently, there's no group think on this. If I'm in a hurry to get somewhere, I'm thinking differently to when I'm not going anywhere in a hurry.

You hate cycling in Dublin because of cyclists, I call bull****, you hate cycling in Dublin because you don't possess a sufficient amount of awareness to drive in Dublin. I drive in Dublin frequently, it doesn't bother me.

OP, that diagram doesn't show the cyclist signalling right, it's just the way it's drawn, you can see the cyclists arm in a similar position while at the entrance to the roundabout. Stick with the cycling in Dublin, you'll get used to it and better as your confidence improves.

Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, I always obey lights and have no intention of being the type who jumps them. I've even had people tell me "cycle on the path, the road is too dangerous", but I won't be heeding that advice either.

I see what you mean re the ambiguity of the rules of the road. I didn't think it was incorrect but I won't be doing it again anyway. I guess it's another example in Ireland of doing things by the book not working out on the ground. Like when Dublin Bus tell you to specify your destination to the driver, yet everyone just states the fare instead.

I'm a fairly sensitive person anyway so I often let stupid things get to me, which isn't good at all. Thankfully I'm not as bad as I used to be.

Shaunie306

Qualitymark wrote: »

Rather than immediately blaming the cyclist, perhaps you should go back and check the lights - some lights change very fast from green to red.

You accelerated away from the lights, you say? I hope your insurance company doesn't see this - that isn't safe driving behaviour. Lucky the cyclist wasn't a child who'd stop, confused, and freeze.

At which point did I safe it was unsafe? I said I accelerated, To move from 0 to Speed X you must first accelerate,Don't go implying I was breaking the law etc. just because I used the word 'accelerate',buy a dictionary and take off the internet warrior costume, I think you need to go back and read the posts first, All the cars had stopped in time, These lights have the usual 3 second gap from red to green.

rollingscone wrote: »

You won't find much love for red light jumpers here.

But cyclists have a right to use the road and motorists tend to ignore this by creating fantasy discourses about cyclists as a threat and magic grit gloves

Im not entirely certain what you are implying here but I take it you are not a car care fan? Regardless the car is my property whether it be a banger or ferrari no one has the right to touch it, period.

seamus

Shaunie306 wrote: »

Im not entirely certain what you are implying here but I take it you are not a car care fan? Regardless the car is my property whether it be a banger or ferrari no one has the right to touch it, period.

With all due respect, if someone placing their hand on your car is the worst thing you have to worry about, you're a lucky man.

It's cheeky as hell on the cyclist's part because it means you can't move until he's well out of the way, but giving out because someone placed their hand on your car is insanely anal.

If two people were standing having a conversation on the street and leaning on your car, would you have a go at them? If you would, I think you need to rexamine your priorities in life.

Shaunie306

seamus wrote: »

If two people were standing having a conversation on the street and leaning on your car, would you have a go at them? If you would, I think you need to rexamine your priorities in life.

Yes, I most certainly would, Its my hobby, Some people do gardening, some go climbing, My relaxation method after a tough week in work etc is to clean/ maintain my car, I once spent an entire 2 days stripping down a car to clean it with a friend, had a bit of craic etc, After you spent that amount of time removing marks you can understand how I would like to preserve it? I would never touch anyone elses property, regardless of what it is, I have my priorities in order thank you very much, You may not have the interest and see cars as 'tools' thats fine, I dont expect everyone to understand it, but what I do expect is for people to not touch my car, hence why I park down the end of carparks,

This has gone OT!

galwaycyclist

Shaunie306 wrote: »

These lights have the usual 3 second gap from red to green.

That would not be enough time for a pedestrian to cross a two lane road. Is it enough time for a cyclist to clear a junction?

Shaunie306

galwaycyclist wrote: »

That would not be enough time for a pedestrian to cross a two lane road. Is it enough time for a cyclist to clear a junction?

Yes, Providing they had left before the light finished its amber period, It would have been longer than that aswell as I had the car out of gear, handbrake up and only started the initial steps when my side turned green so he was well outside any ambiguity period, Im quiet a calm driver and always give way to someone trying to cross the road etc. (Im from the country) but this chap put himself in a needless and silly situation to save a couple of minutes.

Just to clarify he came out from beside a car as I crossed the junction, He went on red that is not at question.

What have I started? :eek:

Dermot Illogical

galwaycyclist wrote: »

That would not be enough time for a pedestrian to cross a two lane road. Is it enough time for a cyclist to clear a junction?

Not if he proceeds on red.

Shaunie306

Boards.ie Warrior thread, Im a member of many forums, I have never come across such an array of keyboards warriors in the same place, I didnt use boards for 5/6 years, I think I will say away if this is how every thread is.

Boards.ie, where men can release their inner dragon while eating cheese puffs their Mammy brought up to them, Where Mods are all powerful and make Hitler look like a bitch, Bow one and all. You shall feel the wrath.

LOL, Im only taking the mickey, everyone should relax and realise that this thread is only about a cyclist asking a mere question.

Captain Havoc

You call it taking the mick, I call it trolling, banned for a week.

nomdeboardie

Well let me muddy the roundabout waters and point to something from the motorist's (only!) instructions on the same RSA site that may (rightly or wrongly) at least partly support the OP's right-signal claim:

From http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html (near end of page)

cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout

Karsini wrote: »

What have I started?

:pac:
(It's par for the course here!)

Well it was the rules of the road that had me believe that in the first place. I know now not to do it again though.

GTDolanator

You need to have your witts about cycling in the city centre.Dont be afraid to take all the room ya need and be a bully!!!