Trespassing? Do you do it?

euser1984

There is a note on farms here where it recommends only "not trespassing" if there are signs up. http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/Environment/LeisureAmenities/Parks/

Do people here go through all sorts of areas with their dogs? There are lots of places I would like my dog to visit but I am often unsure as to whether it's ok to enter private fields etc.

andreac

Def not. If it says private and no trespassing then I wouldn't go into that area. There are enough places to walk your dog without going onto someone's private property.

Whispered

No I don't. There are loads of public places to walk our dogs, we're lucky. I'd worry about maybe disturbing animals or causing other problems we wouldn't even be aware of.

boomerang

A lady I know took her dogs into empty fields recently. No livestock there at all. The landowner emerged and fired warning shots over the dogs' heads.

I know of another area that's very scenic but sheep graze there. Farmer got fed up of scolding people off his land, and started leaving poisoned bait around instead. A few off-lead dogs died.

We're very lucky - we have permission from the landowner to take our dogs into their fields every day (except when the cattle are out) and we have lots of Coillte forestry close to us too.

Aru

No trespassing signs mean just that....so no I wouldn't enter land with signs up myself let alone with a dog. What looks like an empty field could be a crop lain/be kept for silage or have livestock that are not visible from the entrance.

Hell I wouldn't enter anyones private property without permission...field or not.
Would you go into someones garden without asking?why is farm property any different?

Loose dogs in any field this time of year are asking to be shot at TBH. Its the middle of spring and there are lots of lambs and pregnant sheep out..not to mention the risk to the owner and dogs health if they end up running into protective cows with newborn/young calves. Cows with young calves at foot can be more dangerous than a bull and theres no better way to make a cow protective than putting a predator like a dog in their space.

Dogs running loose on farmland at ANY time of year can cause issues particularly if they are leaving poo behind so they are not likely to be received very well.
Dogs can carry parasites like neospora in their poo that can cause serious health issues and abortion in cattle who eat the affected grass either while grazing or in the silage made from that crop.

euser1984

Aru wrote: »

Loose dogs in any field this time of year are asking to be shot at TBH. Its the middle of spring and there are lots of lambs and pregnant sheep out..not to mention the risk to the owner and dogs health if they end up running into protective cows with newborn/young calves. Cows with young calves at foot can be more dangerous than a bull and theres no better way to make a cow protective than putting a predator like a dog in their space.

No dog should be shot. Otherwise, your post has some interesting information - thanks. I'd imagine it would be illegal to use a gun in such a way?

Just for the record though - I was talking about land w/out the "no trespassing sign".

andreac

euser1984 wrote: »

No dog should be shot. Otherwise, your post has some interesting information - thanks. I'd imagine it would be illegal to use a gun in such a way?

Just for the record though - I was talking about land w/out the "no trespassing sign".

Its still not your land to go into, unless you have permission though??

If a farmer sees dogs on his land, hes completely within his right to do what he has to do to protect his livestock. Not sure why you feel the need to go onto land when you dont have permission?

There are more than enough places to walk your dogs thats public and free without having to go onto private property.

euser1984

andreac wrote: »

Its still not your land to go into, unless you have permission though??

If a farmer sees dogs on his land, hes completely within his right to do what he has to do to protect his livestock. Not sure why you feel the need to go onto land when you dont have permission?

There are more than enough places to walk your dogs thats public and free without having to go onto private property.

I live in the country and am interested in wildlife. You don't find many badgers or foxes at the side of the road.

andreac

euser1984 wrote: »

I live in the country and am interested in wildlife. You don't find many badgers or foxes at the side of the road.

But what has that got to do with walking your dog on private property?

euser1984

andreac wrote: »

But what has that got to do with walking your dog on private property?

The law is different in the UK - you have right of way for these kind of things.

Kamili

Tresspassing is against the law, regardless of there being a sign or not. The owner of the land is well within their rights to call the gardai, have you removed and prosecute you. They can even shoot your dog if they feel its a danger to their livestock which is their livelihood.

why would you trespass on private land? What gives you the right to do that?

Not only is it disrespectful but its disgraceful. Do you have a sign in your garden? Why does a land owner have to put signs up on his private property?

andreac

If you really want to then go and ask the landowners permission first.

But this isnt the UK, its Ireland?

euser1984

Some angry people on this forum - must not be looking for new people to hang around.

Brighten up, it's Easter Sunday. Happy Easter!

andreac

We arent angry, you put up a post and because we dont agree with breaking the law you say we are angry?

I really hope you never put your dog in a position that could get him harmed by trespassing. Trespassing is what it is, its illegal, so not sure why you think people would agree with you and be ok about breaking the law?

euser1984

andreac wrote: »

We arent angry, you put up a post and because we dont agree with breaking the law you say we are angry?

I really hope you never put your dog in a position that could get him harmed by trespassing. Trespassing is what it is, its illegal, so not sure why you think people would agree with you and be ok about breaking the law?

Maybe you should read my first post

DBB

Ok all, let's keep it nice. Remember that people are allowed to disagree with one another, as long as they show respect for one another.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

mikemac1

Lambing season OP, a farmer will go crazy to see a loose dog in the fields.

But on the leash isn't much better, there was a lady in the UK killed last year when cattle charged her dog during calving season. She didn't let go of the leash and was killed.

Compo culture and people sueing when they fall off gates hasn't helped either :rolleyes:

Are you in Galway?
Sure Merlin Park Woods is just a few km away! Your dog can run all he wants in there

andreac

euser1984 wrote: »

Maybe you should read my first post

I read your first post and I answered your query but because you don't agree with us, we are angry? It's breaking the law end of.

ISDW

euser1984 wrote: »

The law is different in the UK - you have right of way for these kind of things.

Nope. Scotland has the right to roam, the rest of the UK most certainly doesn't.

Kamili

euser1984 wrote: »

There is a note on farms here where it recommends only "not trespassing" if there are signs up. http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/Environment/LeisureAmenities/Parks/

Do people here go through all sorts of areas with their dogs? There are lots of places I would like my dog to visit but I am often unsure as to whether it's ok to enter private fields etc.

to answer your question no people don't bring their dogs to all sorts of areas on private land, its illegal, so yes we all have read your original post.

snoman

I've gone on private land before. Only if there has been no 'no trespassing' sign and if it looks as though others have been there before me. I'd guess that if you were to do more forensic roaming you should get permission from landowners, seems only right.

Binka

ISDW wrote: »

Nope. Scotland has the right to roam, the rest of the UK most certainly doesn't.

I think OP means the right of way, not the right to roam, system in the UK as in Public Footpaths. Many of these go through private farmland and can be used by people with dogs on leads and under control.

snoman

I've got a feeling that the right of way rules are not as clear cut here as they'd be in England, But that there are some established ones. Not sure how you would find out though.

irisheddie85

there are rights of way all over the country on farmland. the problem is no one will tell you where they are or if they are still in use. I know on my home Farm The top of some ditches is a right of way from years ago. but now we have all the land along them so it is out of use. And once we rented some land where there was a right of way through some one else's land. But because the two owners didn't get along it wasstrictly enforced as it was originally set up that it was the with of a horse and cart so we couldn't get a tractor in and had to drive animals almost single file. In Ireland once you step of the right of way you are trespassing and breaking the law

ISDW

Binka wrote: »

I think OP means the right of way, not the right to roam, system in the UK as in Public Footpaths. Many of these go through private farmland and can be used by people with dogs on leads and under control.

using a public footpath is completely different to going onto someone's land without permission, i.e. trespassing. There are also public footpaths in Ireland that cross farmland, the Greenway in Mayo, The Sligo Way etc.

You cannot go off a public footpath in the UK onto the land that isn't designated, so I don't think that is what the OP is talking about, they seem to be saying that unless there are signs up forbidding it, that you can walk across a field, you can't do that in Ireland or in the UK (excepting Scotland)

snoman

irisheddie85 wrote: »

there are rights of way all over the country on farmland. the problem is no one will tell you where they are or if they are still in use. I know on my home Farm The top of some ditches is a right of way from years ago. but now we have all the land along them so it is out of use. And once we rented some land where there was a right of way through some one else's land. But because the two owners didn't get along it wasstrictly enforced as it was originally set up that it was the with of a horse and cart so we couldn't get a tractor in and had to drive animals almost single file. In Ireland once you step of the right of way you are trespassing and breaking the law

I think there must be a legal diffence between rights of way and public footpaths, haven't a clue what they would be tho. I think some of them go back generations - rights of way, I mean. However as irisheddie85 has said they can be quite specific.

looking_around

I think it depends on the area.
Local to where I am, there's 'private' property/ruins. Pretty much the whole town uses it for walking.
However, it's not like there's an open gate. It's sad really that not every area has a local park/area for walking. Where, I live and where my family lives, there's no walking anywhere, thats NOT "trespassing". Unless you count the roads

So yes, at the possibility of getting lynched here. I walk in private lands. But I also respect land that farmers are using and will make sure to pick up the dogs poo.avoid certain fields etc.

euser1984

looking_around wrote: »

I think it depends on the area.
Local to where I am, there's 'private' property/ruins. Pretty much the whole town uses it for walking.
However, it's not like there's an open gate. It's sad really that not every area has a local park/area for walking. Where, I live and where my family lives, there's no walking anywhere, thats NOT "trespassing". Unless you count the roads

So yes, at the possibility of getting lynched here. I walk in private lands. But I also respect land that farmers are using and will make sure to pick up the dogs poo.avoid certain fields etc.

Yeah because it does say on the mayo county council website I linked to!

I still don't believe that it is ok to shoot a dog on your land....

boomerang

It is, if it is threatening/worrying your stock or it is about to worry/threaten your stock and you have no other means of controlling the dog.

Andy-Pandy

euser1984 wrote: »

Yeah because it does say on the mayo county council website I linked to!

I still don't believe that it is ok to shoot a dog on your land....

How can it not be ok for a farmer to protect his livelihood? If a dog is loose and hassling sheep i would expect a farmer to shoot it, its his right and I wouldnt blame him for it.

Whispered

I doubt the OP means he goes into fields and allows his dog chase sheep. I'm not sure, but I think that legally a farmer should not shoot a dog unless it's actively worrying stock. So if you're walking in a field with your dog, it is illegal for the farmer to fire a shot. Can anyone confirm this for me?

On the other hand, he'd be well within his right to tell you to get the F out!

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

I doubt the OP means he goes into fields and allows his dog chase sheep. I'm not sure, but I think that legally a farmer should not shoot a dog unless it's actively worrying stock. So if you're walking in a field with your dog, it is illegal for the farmer to fire a shot. Can anyone confirm this for me?

On the other hand, he'd be well within his right to tell you to get the F out!

A livestock owner is entitled to protect his stock from predators; that includes wild ones as well as domesticated ones. That is why there are for example derogations on open seasons for certain birds and why there is no closed season for shooting foxes.

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

This is where the opinions will start to diverge; to a farmer the moment his ews and lambs huddle together in a protective flock making ready to run for it they are being worried even when the dog in the field is not actively attacking them. In the eyes of the dog owner the dog quite likely was doing nothing.

It just does not make sense for a dog owner to let their pet anywhere near livestock, especially not during lambing and calving time. You're setting yourself up to be hit with a massive bill for losses and you run the risk of having your dog lawfully shot.

Whispered

meathstevie wrote: »

A livestock owner is entitled to protect his stock from predators; that includes wild ones as well as domesticated ones. That is why there are for example derogations on open seasons for certain birds and why there is no closed season for shooting foxes.

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

This is where the opinions will start to diverge; to a farmer the moment his ews and lambs huddle together in a protective flock making ready to run for it they are being worried even when the dog in the field is not actively attacking them. In the eyes of the dog owner the dog quite likely was doing nothing.
.

Thank you, this makes sense.

What about the legalities of firing a shot near a person? Say walking with a dog on a lead, or within a few foot offlead, in an area likely to cause upset to stock?

littlebug

There was a serious amount of media coverage locally (Mayo) back in January after quite a few farmers in different parts of the county lost a lot of livestock to dogs. I'd say at this time of year farmers would not appreciate someone walking their dogs on their land and to do so you would be taking a big risk.

Someone on here a couple of years ago told of letting their dogs off in a big field they thought was empty and it turned out there were sheep at the far end of the field. It didn't end well.

I would also be very reluctant to let my dog off lead in an area where there are badger setts. depends on the dogs prey drive I suppose but I think the dog would come out worse in any encounter. There's plenty of wildlife to be seen in any of the coillte woods without trespassing on someones property.

Just to note, OP hasn't specified whether they're talking about on or off lead, in a big field or trails of some sort.

euser1984

meathstevie wrote: »

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

I would interpret the above as 'No, you cannot shoot a dog except as a last resort'—meaning; you must exhaust all methods of diplomacy. If the dog gets shot, then the owner probably doesn't care a whole lot about the dog.

I mean shooting a domesticated dog :eek:

Whispered

euser1984 wrote: »

I would interpret the above as 'No, you cannot shoot a dog except as a last resort'—meaning; you must exhaust all methods of diplomacy. If the dog gets shot, then the owner probably doesn't care a whole lot about the dog.

I mean shooting a domesticated dog :eek:

I suppose it depends on the definition of worrying stock and the definition of last resort. Like meathstevie pointed out, worrying can be as little as setting the herd on edge. So is it a last resort to prevent the dog physically killing a sheep itself, or a last resort before a dog causes a sheep to loose a lamb, last resort before a sheep/cow gets itself tangled or injured on a fence. It's very grey.

I wouldn't risk it.

Where I live there is a masspath. This means it is a right of way through private land. The gates are sprung to close when you enter. When there is nothing in the field, we walk the dogs and allow them offlead, as do many of the locals. We have met the farmer, chatted to him as he moves stock through adjoining fields etc and we have permission to be there. We'd have our 2 dogs off lead and a walking friend with is 2 dogs offlead, 4 med to large dogs. On a few occasions, the farmer would arrive, say hello, then let his sheep into the field while we are still there. Now I wouldn't expect him to NOT do that, it's his field of course! But I would have thought if sheep are so easily worried he'd let a shout to tell us to put them back on the lead. Same in the Curragh, the sheep don't bat an eyelid at dogs. Are they really so easily upset?

euser1984

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

Witcher

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

The answer here is to stay off land you don't own and your dog will be safe.

littlebug

Whispered wrote: »

Are they really so easily upset?

My dog won't bat an eyelid as we walk past fields of sheep (us on the road) and most of time they ignore us too, but occasionally they'll just take a look at us and take off at a gallop for no apparent reason. When they do this my dog is suddenly up on her hind legs and straining to get running after them. In effect we have just "worried" the sheep without even being in the field. God forbid if my dog actually got in there with them. So sometimes I think it's the sheeps movement that triggers something in the dog...but still the dog that will do all the damage if they get near them and chase.

littlebug

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

seriously? one lamb?

Eight of the flock are dead and many others were injured and traumatized in the attack.

The loss to the farmer is estimated to be in excess of 3,000 euro.

from here

Rommie

To be honest OP, I wouldn't go anywhere near private land. There are enough places to walk without having to go into fields. I don't understand why you so adamantly want to take your dog into the fields anyway? And to a farmer, yes even one lamb can be a huge loss (though it's highly unlikely that just one lamb would be lost). This is their livelihood we're talking about here, they have every right to protect it and you have absolutely no right to go walking across their land.

euser1984

Rommie wrote: »

To be honest OP, I wouldn't go anywhere near private land. There are enough places to walk without having to go into fields. I don't understand why you so adamantly want to take your dog into the fields anyway? And to a farmer, yes even one lamb can be a huge loss (though it's highly unlikely that just one lamb would be lost). This is their livelihood we're talking about here, they have every right to protect it and you have absolutely no right to go walking across their land.

Sorry, I'm not actually going to. I was just talking about the legality of shooting a dog.

DBB

euser1984 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not actually going to. I was just talking about the legality of shooting a dog.

It's legal for a farmer to shoot a dog that's worrying his livestock. It's a perfectly reasonable law. If I may say, you appear to be putting more value on the life of a livestock-chasing dog, than on the livestock themselves. A farmer can only be compensated for lost stock if the dog's owner is found, an unlikely occurrence. Why should he incur losses to his livelihood due to another person breaking the law?
Your posts are confusing. Your OP suggested you DO want to go onto private land, and by the way, not having a "no trespass" sign up does not give you the right to enter someone else's land. You've said you want to go onto private land to look at wildlife, you specifically mentioned foxes and badgers. I'd like to know how you can successfully watch either species (a) when you've a dog with you, and (b) during daylight hours and without a lamp or specialised night vision gear, given that both species are crepuscular and nocturnal? You're going to attract a whole pile of attention entering private land with a dog and a lamp at night if you've no permission to be there.
So OP, what exactly is the point of your thread? Do you want to trespass? Or do you want to watch wildlife by night? Or is this an outrage thread against farmers shooting dogs that are killing his/her stock, for which he'll not be compensated in most cases?

Assassins Creed

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

Lets picture the scenario of walking a dog off lead on the land. Dog sees the flock and chases after them. Recall doesn't work. Ewes get injured in the chase or worse dies with lamb, miscarriages, still births, ewes caught in barbed wire. Proving that death at birth some weeks later was due to trauma of chase. Proving that Farmer as littlebug said is at a loss of 3,000 euro. How easy is it to get compensation. Call guards, if they arrive on time owner is caught. Possible court case, owner cant afford to pay or proving negligence etc.

Farmer has invested a lot of time and money in his living. A domesticated dog on his land worrying sheep is in his mind and rightfully so is a predator and not a domesticated dog.

The cost to farmers each year from the actions of domesticated dogs, someones pet, runs into the thousands.

I'd imagine in a farmers mind to replace someones dog is a lot less than his potential loss. And who can blame him.

snoman

'It's sad really that not every area has a local park/area for walking. Where, I live and where my family lives, there's no walking anywhere, thats NOT "trespassing". Unless you count the roads'

I guess that in reality there are always places in the country where there are no public paths and where there is a community understanding of areas where it is ok to let your dog off lead. This should in no way exonerate the dog walker from controlling his/her dog in a throughly responsible manner. And I have always understood that if a dog is in a field causing farm animals any discomfort that it is entirely within the landowners right to take action, and if this means that the dog is off lead it is his/her right to shoot it.

Sorry for Bold at top. Forgot how to paste quotes!!!

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

Thank you, this makes sense.

What about the legalities of firing a shot near a person? Say walking with a dog on a lead, or within a few foot offlead, in an area likely to cause upset to stock?

That's starting to drift into reckless discharge territory and that's a completely different kettle of fish legislation and consequence wise.

meathstevie

littlebug wrote: »

My dog won't bat an eyelid as we walk past fields of sheep (us on the road) and most of time they ignore us too, but occasionally they'll just take a look at us and take off at a gallop for no apparent reason. When they do this my dog is suddenly up on her hind legs and straining to get running after them. In effect we have just "worried" the sheep without even being in the field. God forbid if my dog actually got in there with them. So sometimes I think it's the sheeps movement that triggers something in the dog...but still the dog that will do all the damage if they get near them and chase.

If you're on the road and your dog is under control than you're doing absolutely nothing wrong.

It's natural defensive behaviour for sheep to huddle up and run and that exactly is the sign for a hunting canine to get the chase going.

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the definition of worrying stock and the definition of last resort. Like meathstevie pointed out, worrying can be as little as setting the herd on edge. So is it a last resort to prevent the dog physically killing a sheep itself, or a last resort before a dog causes a sheep to loose a lamb, last resort before a sheep/cow gets itself tangled or injured on a fence. It's very grey.

I wouldn't risk it.

Where I live there is a masspath. This means it is a right of way through private land. The gates are sprung to close when you enter. When there is nothing in the field, we walk the dogs and allow them offlead, as do many of the locals. We have met the farmer, chatted to him as he moves stock through adjoining fields etc and we have permission to be there. We'd have our 2 dogs off lead and a walking friend with is 2 dogs offlead, 4 med to large dogs. On a few occasions, the farmer would arrive, say hello, then let his sheep into the field while we are still there. Now I wouldn't expect him to NOT do that, it's his field of course! But I would have thought if sheep are so easily worried he'd let a shout to tell us to put them back on the lead. Same in the Curragh, the sheep don't bat an eyelid at dogs. Are they really so easily upset?

Generally speaking sheep would be just about the easiest upset and stressed farm animals you'll encounter in Ireland. The only one I can think about that would be of a more nervous disposition would be a thorough bred horse but they're not that often in easily accessible fields.

Don't forget we're talking about animals after all. Some flocks would be used to have dogs around them. Also a lot of people especially hunters (the variety on foot with a gun) and a good few folk in rural areas would have their dogs livestock trained.

Aru

Whispered wrote: »

Are they really so easily upset?

Sheep heavy in lamb are very very easily upset and stress can have severe consequences. Even handling in order to treat injuries etc can bring on early lambing and lambs born more that 2 or 3 days before their due date rarely survive. They also can end up carrying dead lambs after a stress and these are not easily delivered/can rot inside her meaning the ewe could die as well.

Sheep who are not used to that dog find meeting that sort of predator(because remember dogs are predators and sheep are a high drive prey animal)very stressful. Your dog does not have to bite or even chase a pregnant ewe to cause them stress. Unfamiliar dogs getting close enough to them can be enough to start the stress reaction.Obviously being chased is 100 times worse than a dog in the field...but thinking that your dog is fine in a sheep field this time of year is not on.

One of clients flocks had one of their fields of pregnant ewes chased this year.

Of the flock 3 died on the day from the stress. 2 also drown in the stream the dogs cornered them in before the farmer found them.They were likely weak from the stress and unable to climb out,plus their wool once soaked through is a lead weight. None of them had actually been bitten,the dogs were just chasing for fun not killing.....Could have looked like harmless fun if you are not familiar with sheep.

Since then the farmer has had hugh amounts of weak lambs born.Many of these need intensive care to get them going and still hes losing some. Several ewes turned out to be carrying dead lambs...we lost 3 of these as they got infections from the lambs rotting inside...in spite of prompt vet treatment and removing the lambs once it was apparent they were dead. Some of the ewes scanned in lamb resorbed so they will not have any lambs this year.Another loss. He will not have enough replacement hoggets(female ewe lambs) this year and will have to buy in more to keep the flock to its normal level. Those dogs fun will have have cost that farmer thousands.

Incidentally I put down all 4 dogs involved, when they came back for round two the farmer chose not to shoot them and instead scared them with some warning shots and followed them home. It was a horribly day...those poor dogs were the ones who suffered for their owns lack of control.

Sheep who are not in lamb are obviously hardier! But its still unfair to trespass on someones land with your pet and put their livestock under stress.

Whispered

Aru wrote: »

the farmer chose not to shoot them and instead scared them with some warning shots and followed them home. It was a horribly day...those poor dogs were the ones who suffered for their owns lack of control.

Did the farmer get compensated by the owners?

Would you reckon the ones on the Curragh for example are just so used to them that it doesn't effect them?

mathepac

Live-stock raised on commonage (like the Curragh) for even part of the year will be better 'socialised' than those raised on farms. The sheep on the Curragh will have adapted well to sharing their environment with horses, motor-vehicles, crowds, noise including gun-fire, dogs and of course a variety of individual humans. Thus they are far less likely to become startled or display nervousness than their rural cousins. But even on common land there are rules about off-lead or stray canines and remember when your adorable little Shep meets the inoffensive Diddums or Rover of a night, their domestication vanishes quickly when presented with what looks to them like prey animals.