Austerity isn't really working is it?

Bullseye1

Your easily amused then. You do realise zombies don't come back to life. We dont have a functioning banking system. Maybe you need to shout louder and be more obnoxious.

Ireland's Tiger days are long gone. I'd be happy if we had a normal economy.

pH wrote: »

This sort of thing amuses me - I was listening to the radio the other day and in the same program they had the usuals on moaning about how it was the bank's fault that they lent all this money that people couldn't pay back - bloody banks shouldn't lend to people that mightn't be able to pay back! - and then in pretty much the next segment they had others on moaning about how dare the banks not lend to small businesses that were in trouble.

If you could point at one thing that more than any other got us into this mess it would be irresponsible lending - and there are still those today criticizing banks for their current responsible lending criteria.

We don't want "ZOMBIE BANKS" we want our TIGER BANKS BACK!!!!

jank

KyussBishop wrote: »

You are claiming austerity is an indisputable requirement or truth, like an 'economic law' due to economic theory alone, and that is wrong, since there are perfectly good alternative policies available that would totally eliminate austerity, and that are blocked due to political issues.

I have never claimed in this thread, that the policies I am putting forward will ever be implemented (I have specifically said Germany will not allow it), only that this alternative is there, and it makes your claim that austerity is (due to economic theory alone), is the only option, is false.

So you are acting like a Backbench TD so, spouting of nonsensical alternatives that you know have no chance of being implemented.

I would NOT call the Federalisation of Europe and a perfectly good alternative as even you would not agree to it never mind anyone else. Of course economically we could state that if Ireland cast away its sovereignty and joined/unified with the German Federal Republic. BANG! A perfectly good solution to austerity where only political impediments are in the way!! Are you serious!?

If you want to put forward 'realistic' alternatives to austerity then stop going off finding them in a parallel universe.

darkhorse

noodler wrote: »

Our deficit is shrinking.

Austerity is working.

Thats good, noodler, I'll pass it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaGDIVLboWI&feature=player_detailpage

Bullseye1

We seem to be obsessed with the deficit and forgotten about everything else. Have a good one those staying up late.

KyussBishop

jank wrote: »

So you are acting like a Backbench TD so, spouting of nonsensical alternatives that you know have no chance of being implemented.

I would NOT call the Federalisation of Europe and a perfectly good alternative as even you would not agree to it never mind anyone else. Of course economically we could state that if Ireland cast away its sovereignty and joined/unified with the German Federal Republic. BANG! A perfectly good solution to austerity where only political impediments are in the way!! Are you serious!?

If you want to put forward 'realistic' alternatives to austerity then stop going off finding them in a parallel universe.

We already lost our sovereignty when we gave away control over our currency; due to the knock-on effects of loss of control over our currency and monetary policy, on our fiscal policy, it means we are already pushed into a choice between debt and decimating our public services, and economy.

The policies I propose, are ones that were on the cards right from the inception of the Euro, and being actively discussed within Europe, because without recovery policies the Euro gets deadlocked in times of economic crisis, like things are now.

No sane economic system, can either 1: Expect to never end up in economic depression or trouble in general (that would go against all historical experience), or 2: Stay functioning properly in the absence of recovery policies.


The EU is totally lacking in such recovery policies, so even supposing we get past this current crisis with the Euro intact, what recovery policies should be put in place then? (and remember, preventative policies alone won't cut it, there have to be policies that can deal with recovering from an active crisis)

Anynama141

Bullseye1 wrote: »

We seem to be obsessed with the deficit and forgotten about everything else. Have a good one those staying up late.

That's because if we don't finance the deficit somehow, we have to cut about 15% from government spending overnight...I think the social protection bill was €20 billion odd in 2012.

So - the deficit spending is nearly as much as the entire social welfare budget. And if we don't want pretty steep cuts across the board to all types of government spending, we need to find that money from somewhere. At present, it comes from the Troika, if we agree to small cuts across the board.

A mess indeed. Goodnight!

jank

KyussBishop wrote: »

No you just seem to be ignoring the difference between national debt, and EU-wide debt.

One is reality, the other lives in a parallel universe.

darkhorse

Anynama141 wrote: »

As to your neighbour - he doesn't live in an expensive house, so he pays less tax on his house. What's the problem? People who want to live in expensive houses - usually wealthy people - have to pay more. What's the point of picking out the rare case of a rich guy in a small house?

There is no problem. Your are the one who said that the wealthier are hit harder when it comes to tax to be paid on the family home. I picked out one case just because he lives next door to me. But I only live in a small village in this country. For example, for all you and I know, out of the 1.6 million houses due to pay the family home tax, a big percentage of the owners of said houses may be very wealthy.

darkhorse

Anynama141 wrote: »

It's worth examining the agenda of the group or people behind a study before relying on it as representing objective truth: would you trust a study about the uselessness of green energy if it came from an oil industry group?

The study is by Caritas Europa - who are they, in their own words?

No agenda there then.

It does'nt really matter to you, where in the world it comes from that the prospect of austerity does not work without growth. You could say that out of every ten economists, at least eight of them will say that too much austerity without growth, causes stagnation within an economy.

Three Seasons

steddyeddy wrote: »

But I am asking how important an issue for you is it in the recession?

Hard to say really, all I can say is the economy and standards off living would be generally better, how much, I don't know, not that much assuming social welfare stays so high.

Three Seasons

Bullseye1 wrote: »

No one is denying that the deficit needs to be closed. But there is no evidence that unemployment is coming down through job creation, there is no proof that there is a slow down in the number of SMEs going out of business, the only evidence we can all agree on is that those still in employment and those owning property are paying more taxes and getting less services for it, so austerity isn't exactly working to improve anything other than reducing the deficit. There is more to an economy than its deficit.

The main goal of austerity is to close the deficit. The economy will get worse with austerity before it gets better, that's what's supposed to happen.

Anynama141

darkhorse wrote: »

It does'nt really matter to you, where in the world it comes from that the prospect of austerity does not work without growth. You could say that out of every ten economists, at least eight of them will say that too much austerity without growth, causes stagnation within an economy.

Darkhorse, it doesn't matter whether I think it's working or not, same as it doesn't matter whether some far-left Jesus freaks think it's working or not. The main point I'm making is that the Irish government has no choice about the matter anyway, and I don't think anybody seriously believes otherwise.

pH

Anynama141 wrote: »

Darkhorse, it doesn't matter whether I think it's working or not, same as it doesn't matter whether some far-left Jesus freaks think it's working or not. The main point I'm making is that the Irish government has no choice about the matter anyway, and I don't think anybody seriously believes otherwise.

The choices that we (or our government) have are between our current "austerity" and even worse austerity. Despite how bad and unfair it all feels the fact remains that we as a country are living 15 Billion euro beyond our means this year and are currently planning to keep living well beyond our means for the foreseeable future - financed by money lent to us by Europe and other institutions.

The fact remains that all this may very well be pointless - there's a good reason that real investors won't lend us money - it's because for all practical purposes we're broke and can never pay it back.

steddyeddy

We have to look at that we are inflicting austerity for. The banks acted akin to a gambling system in this country. With Bank guarantees been award for gambling and incompetence there we are building up to the same thing again. Banks that are "too big to fail" gamble, fail and are rescued by the taxpayer. So is austerity working? Yes but not for society.

Anynama141

steddyeddy wrote: »

We have to look at that we are inflicting austerity for. The banks acted akin to a gambling system in this country. With Bank guarantees been award for gambling and incompetence there we are building up to the same thing again. Banks that are "too big to fail" gamble, fail and are rescued by the taxpayer. So is austerity working? Yes but not for society.

It's certainly not 'working' for banks either.

I don't think people understand what they are saying when they rail against 'the banks'. Are they referring to the shareholders who own the banks? The staff working inside the buildings? The buildings themselves? The senior managers who make the strategic decisions?

And when people demand that the banks 'pay' for what they did, who or what are they referring to?

steddyeddy

Anynama141 wrote: »

It's certainly not working for banks either.

I don't think people understand what they are saying when they rail against 'the banks'. Are they referring to the shareholders who own the banks? The staff working inside the buildings? The buildings themselves? The senior managers who make the strategic decisions?

And when people demand that the banks 'pay' for what they did, who or what are they referring to?

The banking institutions. From what I see its mostly the same people at the top. If a banks to big to fail we will keep bailing them out, they take the same risks and cost us more next time.

Anynama141

steddyeddy wrote: »

The banking institutions. From what I see its mostly the same people at the top. If a banks to big to fail we will keep bailing them out, they take the same risks and cost us more next time.

What do you mean by 'the banking institutions' though?

You are dead right about the 'too big to fail' stuff - that's a huge problem with no easy answer in sight, and I mean that for the whole planet, not just Ireland.

steddyeddy

Anynama141 wrote: »

What do you mean by 'the banking institutions' though?

You are dead right about the 'too big to fail' stuff - that's a huge problem with no easy answer in sight, and I mean that for the whole planet, not just Ireland.

what do you think I mean by banks?

Anynama141

steddyeddy wrote: »

what do you think I mean by banks?

I've no idea - that's why I'm asking your for clarification. I'm not sure you understand how banks and the whole finance world works.

Edit: I should also add that I don't mean to pick on you at all Eddy - I think that most people don't understand it, and nearly none of those who rail against 'de banks' all the time nowadays do (as the banks are all under new ownership and management).

Three Seasons

It's seems to go unnoticed that the owners of the banks were wiped out by the recession.

Anynama141

Three Seasons wrote: »

It's seems to go unnoticed that the owners of the banks were wiped out by the recession.

Well, wiped out by the stupidity of the senior management, I would say, but yes. Loads of ordinary folks' pension funds would have been wiped out as probably every single Irish pension fund had a lot of money in the shares of these banks.

darkhorse

Anynama141 wrote: »

It's certainly not 'working' for banks either.

Tell that to Mr Boucher.

Anynama141

darkhorse wrote: »

Tell that to Mr Boucher.

He's not a bank though, is he?

Overpaid, for sure.

ronco

where is the house tax going
the water charges going to go
why did our government pump 35 billion into banks
bond holders are gamblers they lost their money and get paid ?
where is the profit the famous builders made for the last ten years in their back pockets .They used our money to gamble with ,do a job finish a project pocket the profit ,go back to the bank get a loan Finnish another project if it doesn't pan out let someone else pay their debt which we are doing.
i am self employed and struggling to keep my head above water and pay my bills i don't get any help support from the state but i still have to pay off someones else debts is this fair i don't think so, so cop on people you are being screwed

G Power

Three Seasons wrote: »

It's seems to go unnoticed that the owners of the banks were wiped out by the recession.

the rothchilds and jp morgan etc are busy repossessing the homes they knew you'd most likely not be able to pay off, buying up businesses, sowing up markets etc and further concentrating wealth again until they create the next bubble that the top 1% get to invest in and we get the trickle down all over again, wiped out my ar$e!!

Three Seasons

G Power wrote: »

the rothchilds and jp morgan etc are busy repossessing the homes they knew you'd most likely not be able to pay off, buying up businesses, sowing up markets etc and further concentrating wealth again until they create the next bubble that the top 1% get to invest in and we get the trickle down all over again, wiped out my ar$e!!

BOI, AIB, Anglo, Irish Life share value was wiped out. The owners lost it all.

tayto lover

ronco wrote: »

where is the house tax going
the water charges going to go
why did our government pump 35 billion into banks
bond holders are gamblers they lost their money and get paid ?
where is the profit the famous builders made for the last ten years in their back pockets .They used our money to gamble with ,do a job finish a project pocket the profit ,go back to the bank get a loan Finnish another project if it doesn't pan out let someone else pay their debt which we are doing.
i am self employed and struggling to keep my head above water and pay my bills i don't get any help support from the state but i still have to pay off someones else debts is this fair i don't think so, so cop on people you are being screwed

There are trillions in offshore accounts held by the same people as before i'd say.
The rich Govt friends rarely lose.

V4Voluntary

What do you mean "austerity isn't working"?

That's like saying, 'living within my means isn't working'.

Ireland has a massive spending problem. We cannot afford to live like this, simple as that. As a country of under five million people, we're spending at the same rate as countries with 50/60 million people and the subsequent tax taken from the capital accumulation that these populated countries create. So how do we do this? We're borrowing and we can't even pay back the interest on it let alone the initial loan. We're in serious deep waters here and the government are actually spending more in 2013 than they were in 2011. Spending is going UP! Well of course austerity isn't working....we don't have ANY!

The only way out is to CUT BIGTIME. Face it. Public spending will need to be slashed and welfare will need to go down...WAYYY DOWN. Let's live within our means.

steddyeddy

I love when people talk about cutting welfare. They rarely realise it will have an effect on society at large and not just welfare recipients.

HerrScheisse

I for one am for austerity.

I will gladly lend the Irish government money at an atrocious rate of 7-8% interest. This is certainly a better return than a savings account with 2% return, barely countering inflation.

Putting people in charge of the finances of the majority, on the basis on their father's surname, or their ability at the much admired game of "stickball" is hardly the basis for sound economics.