Lee Westwood

Ilik Urgee

Class act or over-hyped journeyman?


Journeyman imo.
Undoubtedly talented but with a wayward short game which has cost him down the years.His putting can be pretty woeful too.

Sky have this idea that he's a far better player than most,I can't see it tbh.
What do ye think?

Howjoe1

I think he is a hell of a lot more than a journey man. Okay the "Major" has escaped him (sofar anyway) but few are blessed with that honour.

slave1

Lived most his career from the centre of the fairway, underachieved really in terms of the big tournaments, shame.

loadwire

He's clearly more than a journeyman. Probably hasn't fulfilled his early potential but then in the last 20 majors he's had 7 top-3 finishes.

He hasn't won one though so he's not at that very top level - if that's what OP means then I'd agree, but, again, he's a class above 'journeyman' level. Biggest flaw is his putting stroke is very poor under pressure. It has supposedly improved since his move to the US but I'll reserve judgement til the next time he's in contention on a Major Sunday. For now I'd still have him as English golfer most likely to win one.

Milkers

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Sky have this idea that he's a far better player than most,I can't see it tbh.

I think it's fair to say when you get to No. 1 in the world at something you're probably better than most. A good few people do play golf.

kryogen

His putting lets him down too often

Ilik Urgee

loadwire wrote: »

He's clearly more than a journeyman. Probably hasn't fulfilled his early potential but then in the last 20 majors he's had 7 top-3 finishes.

He hasn't won one though so he's not at that very top level - if that's what OP means then I'd agree, but, again, he's a class above 'journeyman' level. Biggest flaw is his putting stroke is very poor under pressure. It has supposedly improved since his move to the US but I'll reserve judgement til the next time he's in contention on a Major Sunday. For now I'd still have him as English golfer most likely to win one.

Yeah, journeyman is a bit harsh, just sick of Sky building him up to something he's not....yet maybe.
Definitely Major contender but never seems to dominate a course tee to green. I'd put Poults ahead of himfor a major win though.

L.O.F.T

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Class act or over-hyped journeyman?

Journeyman imo.

What do ye think?

Below are reasons why I completely disagree with your opinion.


Professional wins:39:
Number of wins by tour
PGA Tour:2
European Tour:22 (9th all time)
Japan Golf Tour:4
Asian Tour:6
Sunshine Tour:3
PGA Tour of Australasia:1

Best results in Major Championships
Masters Tournament:2nd: 2010
U.S. Open:3rd/T3: 2008, 2011
The Open Championship:2nd: 2010
PGA Championship:T3: 2009

Achievements and awards
European Tour Order of Merit winner:2000, 2009
European Golfer of the Year:1998
RyderCup:1997 (winners), 1999, 2002 (winners), 2004 (winners), 2006 (winners), 2008, 2010 (winners), 2012 (winners).

Creasy_bear

loadwire wrote: »

He's clearly more than a journeyman. Probably hasn't fulfilled his early potential but then in the last 20 majors he's had 7 top-3 finishes.

He hasn't won one though so he's not at that very top level - if that's what OP means then I'd agree, but, again, he's a class above 'journeyman' level. Biggest flaw is his putting stroke is very poor under pressure. It has supposedly improved since his move to the US but I'll reserve judgement til the next time he's in contention on a Major Sunday. For now I'd still have him as English golfer most likely to win one.

His biggest flaw is his chipping/pitching. For a professional golfer, it really is shocking. It's a testament to his driving/iron play that he got to #1 at all. He'll have a great chance again this yr at Augusta. Why? Because there's no rough around the greens. He can just putt from everywhere.

A New earth

Just missed a short putt to go back to 3 under

Ilik Urgee

L.O.F.T wrote: »

Below are reasons why I completely disagree with your opinion.


Professional wins:39:
Number of wins by tour
PGA Tour:2
European Tour:22 (9th all time)
Japan Golf Tour:4
Asian Tour:6
Sunshine Tour:3
PGA Tour of Australasia:1

Best results in Major Championships
Masters Tournament:2nd: 2010
U.S. Open:3rd/T3: 2008, 2011
The Open Championship:2nd: 2010
PGA Championship:T3: 2009

Achievements and awards
European Tour Order of Merit winner:2000, 2009
European Golfer of the Year:1998
RyderCup:1997 (winners), 1999, 2002 (winners), 2004 (winners), 2006 (winners), 2008, 2010 (winners), 2012 (winners).

And perfectly entitled to it going by that list.
Cannot reside in the higher echelons of the game til that Major is in the bag.
As it stands I'd prefer Paddy's resume


5 Professional wins (28)
5.1 European Tour wins (14)
5.2 PGA Tour wins (5)
5.3 Japan Golf Tour wins (1)
5.4 Asian Tour wins (3)
5.5 Other wins (10)
6 Major championships
6.1 Wins (3)

charlieIRL

A New earth wrote: »

Just missed a short putt to go back to 3 under

that was a terrible miss. ?Has he changed to a belly putter too?

loadwire

Creasy_bear wrote: »

His biggest flaw is his chipping/pitching. For a professional golfer, it really is shocking. It's a testament to his driving/iron play that he got to #1 at all. He'll have a great chance again this yr at Augusta. Why? Because there's no rough around the greens. He can just putt from everywhere.

He actually has a better record in the US Open where they do tend to have a bit of rough . Agree that his chipping is very poor too but when he's playing well enough to contend he tends to have very high GIR so it's his putting that comes under pressure rather than his chipping.

ForeRight

charlieIRL wrote: »

that was a terrible miss. ?Has he changed to a belly putter too?

His belly just appears to be falling to his putter rather than the putter being longer I think.

loadwire

ForeRight wrote: »

His belly just appears to be falling to his putter rather than the putter being longer I think.

He's using a 'long-gripped' putter but not using it as a belly putter according to this article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/28/lee-westwood-new-putter

soundsham

Had his chance when Cink won the Open
Having hit a wonder shot from the bunker on 18 he went up and 3 stabbed it to miss the playoff by one

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Russman

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Cannot reside in the higher echelons of the game til that Major is in the bag.

Can't agree with that to be honest. Maybe the "highest" as opposed to "higher" echelons of the game. Plenty of lesser players have majors and are never heard of again. Don't forget for most of a decade the field were essentially playing for 3 majors a year with Tiger at his peak.
Paddy's record is undoubtedly better and, with 3 majors, love him or hate him, he's automatically one of the greats. Doesn't mean Lee Westwood isn't up there on the next tier down.

I do think Sky go overboard with him (and any UK player who shows a bit of form), and I suspect he probably won't get that elusive major at this stage, too many good young players with better short games. Of course he might do a Clarkey and back his way into one in the latter stages of his career, maybe a US Open on a really tough layout, who knows.

Wouldn't begrudge him a major, but I don't know if I want him to win one though, he comes across a bit arrogant IMO and I can only imagine how he'd be with a major !:D

stockdam

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Cannot reside in the higher echelons of the game til that Major is in the bag.

So you'd put Paul Lawrie, Rich Beem, Steve Jones, John Daly, Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, Shaun Micheel, Ian Baker-Finch, Michael Campbell, Charl Schwartzel, Trevor Immelman, Luis Oosthuizen, YE Yang, Lucas Glover, Mike Weir, Zach Johnson and even Bubba Watson above Westwood? All of these have won a major but none of them imo are great golfers.

Majors are nice to win but some great players never win one and some average players have a major win.

Have a look at this list and tell me which ones were journeymen.......(Lehman?.......even then he was a good golfer).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Number_One_male_golfers

Creasy_bear

stockdam wrote: »

So you'd put Paul Lawrie, Rich Beem, Steve Jones, John Daly, Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, Shaun Micheel, Ian Baker-Finch, Michael Campbell, Charl Schwartzel, Trevor Immelman, Luis Oosthuizen, YE Yang, Lucas Glover, Mike Weir, Zach Johnson and even Bubba Watson above Westwood? All of these have won a major but none of them imo are great golfers.

Majors are nice to win but some great players never win one and some average players have a major win.

Have a look at this list and tell me which ones were journeymen.......(Lehman?.......even then he was a good golfer).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Number_One_male_golfers

None are great?? Lol
I'd put Charl & Louis ahead of Westwood to be honest. They're both unreal imo. Immelman has had cancer since his win. I think he could have been unreal. Charl/Louis are much younger than Westwood too. They'll win more majors

slave1

stockdam wrote: »

So you'd put Paul Lawrie, Rich Beem, Steve Jones, John Daly, Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, Shaun Micheel, Ian Baker-Finch, Michael Campbell, Charl Schwartzel, Trevor Immelman, Luis Oosthuizen, YE Yang, Lucas Glover, Mike Weir, Zach Johnson and even Bubba Watson above Westwood? All of these have won a major but none of them imo are great golfers.

Majors are nice to win but some great players never win one and some average players have a major win.

Have a look at this list and tell me which ones were journeymen.......(Lehman?.......even then he was a good golfer).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Number_One_male_golfers

I'd put Daly ahead, two majors if I'm not mistaken and more enjoyable to watch.

GreeBo

anyone else think it's funny to see Westwood advertising putters during the ads?
he wouldn't inspire me to use anything he uses...

Daithio12

GreeBo wrote: »

anyone else think it's funny to see Westwood advertising putters during the ads?
he wouldn't inspire me to use anything he uses...

That's hilarious, can't imagine anyone doesn't know about his putting woes.

Ilik Urgee

stockdam wrote: »

So you'd put Paul Lawrie, Rich Beem, Steve Jones, John Daly, Ben Curtis, Todd Hamilton, Shaun Micheel, Ian Baker-Finch, Michael Campbell, Charl Schwartzel, Trevor Immelman, Luis Oosthuizen, YE Yang, Lucas Glover, Mike Weir, Zach Johnson and even Bubba Watson above Westwood? All of these have won a major but none of them imo are great golfers.

Majors are nice to win but some great players never win one and some average players have a major win.

Have a look at this list and tell me which ones were journeymen.......(Lehman?.......even then he was a good golfer).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Number_One_male_golfers

Not a hope I'd put many of them ahead of Westwood. All I'm saying is yes,he's a good golfer,not a great,as he's portrayed in the media.
Until he scores a major victory he can't be considered so either.
Was Monty a great? Not imo.
Is Donald a great? Not imo,just one phenomenal season.
Was Norman a great even though he blew up in the Masters? Yes.

He has the tour victories that go hand in hand with majors to make him great.Until then he's another good tour player. (I retract the journeyman, got that tip from the Guardian to initiate replies).

Shur in the Ping ads he's only caddying for Bubba:pac:

Russman

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Not a hope I'd put many of them ahead of Westwood. All I'm saying is yes,he's a good golfer,not a great,as he's portrayed in the media.
Until he scores a major victory he can't be considered so either.
Was Monty a great? Not imo.
Is Donald a great? Not imo,just one phenomenal season.
Was Norman a great even though he blew up in the Masters? Yes.

He has the tour victories that go hand in hand with majors to make him great.Until then he's another good tour player. (I retract the journeyman, got that tip from the Guardian to initiate replies).

Shur in the Ping ads he's only caddying for Bubba:pac:

No, he's not "a great" yet, in my opinion, but its so subjective. Its not like its a box to be ticked when x,y & z are completed. Moe Norman is regarded by some as a great, yet he won sweet FA. Don't forget the concept of "Majors" has been a bit of a moveable feast over the history of the game.

Neither is Donald, Norman certainly is, Monty.........arguably - 8 OoMs and his Ryder Cup record goes a long way to making up for the lack of a major. There's more to being a great than just majors. Lee Janzen has 2 US Opens, but is hardly a great IMO.

He's a bit better than another good tour player though in fairness.
I don't particularly like or dislike LW, but I think him and Monty (& Ollie) damaged their major chances by staying loyal to the European Tour and not moving to the States full time in their prime. With 3 of the majors over there it certainly would have helped them. Who knows how many majors they may or may not have won had they done so ? Actually the same could probably be said of Seve, Langer & Woosie. He's definitely one of the great European players.

Sometimes we expect a little too much of sports stars IMO, they are only human after all and not everyone can win.

FixdePitchmark

Watching Maybank Malaysian Open.

Lee has an amazing record over there. Don't know if it is the fact that he is normally the top player in the field.

-11 after 11 of round 2.

Point I'm making is - to be -11 after 29 holes you have to be able to putt.

So - Lee definitely needs to overcome mental aspect of his game in Majors.

I think he could win The Open Championship this year.

Slicemeister

12 of his world-wide wins have come in Malaysia. Would love to see Billy Foster win a Major.

FixdePitchmark

Interesting table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_golfers_with_most_European_Tour_wins

TrapperChamonix

There is only 1 measure (well 4 actually) of a golfer and its the majors. They all present different types of challenges through combination of course and weather but ultimately they put you under the most unrelenting pressure that no other environment can. The Greats are forged and tested in the white hot cauldron of the majors. Order of Merits, Tour wins, Ryder Cups don't matter a damn, no where else comes close.
Winning a major is not an indication that you are a golfing "Great", BUT if you don't win one then you sure as hell can't be defined as one.

428 Majors won by 210 players
132 single winners
35 two time winners
16 three time winners
8 four time winner
6 five time winner
10 players with between six and ten wins (Faldo, Trevino, Sarazan, Vardon, Snead, Palmer, Jones, Watson, Hogan, Player)
Walter with 11
Tiger with 14
Jack with 18

I'd generally say the Greatness starts cutting in a 3 majors (only 43 players have won 3 or more) and winning on at least 2 different majors (showing ability ot adapt). There's an argument to exclude a number of players who won multiple BO's in 19th century (Braid, Morris Jr & Sn, Taylor, Park, Ferguson). Bobby Locke and Peter Thompson only won the BO but given they won 4 and 5 respectively they certainly deserve their place. Henry Cotton won3 BO's but he won either side of WW2 and there was a break of 5 years in which he might reasonably be expected to win. Similarly Jimmy Demaret in the Masters. Is Hale Irwin with 3 US Opens a great? Perhaps becoming the oldest US Open champion at the Age of 45 gets him in.

I'd certainly say Padraig winning 3 puts him on the lower rungs of the Greatness Ladder (only 43 players have won 3 or more majors). Faldo for all that we dislike him, really did achieve greatness.

FixdePitchmark

Trapper - I agree there is only regrets for a top pro golfer if they don't pick up a few.

But sport is not always like that.

I'm certain - I could pick out some of the golfers in the 132 above that are in totally different division than lee , a lower one.

GreeBo

I'd put monty above Harrington in terms of greatness I think tbh.

scrubber72

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd put monty above Harrington in terms of greatness I think tbh.

Wwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhaaaaaaatttttttt?

SnowDrifts

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd put monty above Harrington in terms of greatness I think tbh.

scrubber72 wrote: »

Wwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhaaaaaaatttttttt?

This should be interesting...

Obviously major wins are given more weight over normal tour wins (quality of field etc) but at what point should a lot more wins be taken into account?

Excluding Paddy's 3 majors, look at the stats vs Monty..

Paddy
11 European Tour wins
2 PGA Tour wins

Monty
31 European Tour wins.

There is a big difference in wins right there. Similarly, Tiger is only 3 wins off the all time PGA Tour wins record but he is still 4 majors short of Jack.

charlieIRL

I think majors carry more weight / respect.

If tiger was to put away his clubs today he alway be referenced as having less majors than Jack and not on how many tour wins he had (not saying he wont get recognition for his achievements and contribution to golf but it's just not the same)
Same with Padraig as well, he's always referred to as "3 time major winner" Not multiple tour winner

SnowDrifts

charlieIRL wrote: »

I think majors carry more weight / respect.

If tiger was to put away his clubs today he alway be referenced as having less majors than Jack and not on how many tour wins he had (not saying he wont get recognition for his achievements and contribution to golf but it's just not the same)
Same with Padraig as well, he's always referred to as "3 time major winner" Not multiple tour winner

Yeah I can see that side as well. Proving that point - I wonder how many people on here know who has the most PGA Tour wins? Everyone knows Jack is at the top of the majors tally.

But again... big difference between the amount of Monty's wins vs Paddy's....

slave1

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd put monty above Harrington in terms of greatness I think tbh.

Ha ha, I think Monty would trade multiples of his European tour wins for Harrington's two Opens.
Harrington all the way...

Russman

Tour wins vs Major wins are two completely different animals and yardsticks to judge a player on.

IMHO, in terms of what might be termed, by some, as "the greats of the game" - its all about majors, and as a result Monty isn't even in the discussion. Even the likes of Ben Curtis et al are ahead of him. Monty is probably even now still a better player than Curtis, but Curtis has his place at the top table because he has a major.

Of course, he's one of the best ever European players, no question, but strictly IMHO, the pantheon of the greats is for major winners only.

slave1

I'd exclude the once off major winners from the equation, guys who never ever won again for example...

stockdam

slave1 wrote: »

Ha ha, I think Monty would trade multiples of his European tour wins for Harrington's two Opens.
Harrington all the way...

Yes I'm sure Montgomerie would have loved to have won a major but his overall record puts him way above Harrington in consistency.

slave1

Consistency was not the criteria, it was greatness and Paddy's got a great record without his majors and with them a better record than Monty, a lot of Monty's wins were to 'relatively' weak euro fields, Paddy's won twice on the PGA which already beats Monty as he never won outside Europe, oh and then there's the Two Opens and a US major.
One things for certain, they both beat Westy...

stockdam

IMO Montgomerie's record is better than Harrington's and he was the better player. Anyway this is a thread about Westwood so I'll leave the Harrington/Montgomerie debate for another thread

FixdePitchmark

I've been on about this for a good while.

I don't think people should underestimate Lee's position on the list of top European wins ever.
Look at the people around him and below him.

Of course the majors are a big deal.

But monty is one of the best European golfers ever.

Most consistent , top performing pro we have seen.

I think you can be blinded by the majors too.

I'd hazard a guess that Monty is more important a golfer then half the major winners - Lee a quarter

TrapperChamonix

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Yeah I can see that side as well. Proving that point - I wonder how many people on here know who has the most PGA Tour wins? Everyone knows Jack is at the top of the majors tally.

But again... big difference between the amount of Monty's wins vs Paddy's....

Without looking it up, I'm guessing Slammin' Sammy or even Byron Nelson

SnowDrifts

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Without looking it up, I'm guessing Slammin' Sammy or even Byron Nelson

First guess correct! For now anyway.... a certain Mr Woods is already back chipping and putting apparently so perhaps the end of next year might see him up top.

snaphook

I'd be very happy to take Lee's so called rubbish short game.

slave1

Bit of an old thread but still...

Westy has parted ways with Billy Foster after 10yrs and looks like it's now going to be his girlfriend

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2018/11/12/lee-westwood-retain-girlfriend-helen-storey-caddie-claiming/

Love Foster's response...."I can only wish him good luck moving forward," Foster said. "Although I do feel he could have waited more than a week before winning a million dollars!"