Upgrade my bike or not, a bit of advice please

RoboRat

Fellow boardsies... any help would be REALLY appreciated.

Basically I got a Giant Defy 4 Compact last year (spec here)

I was new to cycling and it was recommended and to be honest, I liked it. I didn't think I would get into cycling as much so I am looking to upgrade now. I bought it on the bikes to work scheme and its all paid for now so I have a decision to make.

To give you an idea about me, I am 6 foot and just under 16 stone so going uphill can be a struggle and might be better off with a lighter bike? I am generally cycling about twice a week, 45/50km one day and 60-80km another. I am not looking to race but I would like to get faster and go further.

I am not sure whether I should upgrade the components or sell the bike and get a new bike. I have about €400 - €500 so I was thinking perhaps get a new set of wheels and maybe a new gearset. The current gearset is a Shimano 2300 16 speed gearing and the wheels are Giant S-R2. Would it be just silly upgrade the bike or is the frame decent - it seems to have the exact same frame as a Defy 0 which costs about €600 more so is it just down to the components? If so, then perhaps I would be better off just upgrading the components as I go?

Finally, if I am upgrading the components, I tried a friends bike who has the larger rims and I really liked them, are the worth the money? I was looking at a set of Easton EA70 , does anybody have any experience with them or can you recommend me a better set?

Apologies for the long post, but any help would really be appreciated

07Lapierre

Are you in a Cycling Club? If not, join a club and go out with a group. this is the best way to "Get fast and go further".

RoboRat

Are you in a Cycling Club? If not, join a club and go out with a group. this is the best way to "Get fast and go further".

I have tried but its not really possible as I cant really go out on schedules due to work/family - I can only go when I get a chance.

I am thinking to perhaps invest in a good groupset as I there are many times where I wanted an in-between gear as the gear was either too light or the next was a bit too heavy. Looking at a Shimano 105 groupset, anybody have any suggestions?

johnk123

The difference between 2300 and 105 (Or anything!!!) is huge! I still have 2300 on my Defy, and going back to it, it like a step into a different world!

Russman

105 is certainly a big step up from 2300, the new Tiagra is reputed to be almost as good now that its 10 speed, might be a cheaper option ?
I haven't a clue off the top of my head what a full 105 set costs, but, if I was in your position, I'd be asking what am I really getting for several hundred euro ?

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go at all, but speaking from experience, I was 15st 4lb last September and hills were a b1tch !! I'm now 13st 7lb and the hills are a whole lot easier........I didn't change groupset.
No doubt 105 will feel a bit nicer and having more gears may help, but it likely won't help you up the hills any quicker, whats the max weight saving between one gruppo and another ?

At the same time, if you have the cash, 105 is really nice IMO, and you'd always have it for future frame upgrades.....:D

butterworth

johnk123 wrote: »

The difference between 2300 and 105 (Or anything!!!) is huge! I still have 2300 on my Defy, and going back to it, it like a step into a different world!

I have no doubt that this is true. However, I'm still running the 2300 shifters and rear mech on my 2011 Defy 4 and find them more than adequate for an entry-level road bike.

@RoboRat - Honestly, spending a butt-load of money on a 105 groupset isn't going to make you faster unless you carry €500 in €1 coins around with you the whole time. That being said, I've made several changes to my bike. For instance:

• Replaced triple FSA crankset with Sram Apex double
• 105 front derailleur, broke the stock one through my own stupidity
• New brake blocks (Clarks)
• Continental GP4000S tires
• Mavic Aksium front wheel, only because I bust up the stock rim on a pot hole
• 105 SPD-SL pedals + appropriate footwear

In my opinion the pedals, and possibly the tires, are the only items that have made a difference to my performance. The Defy frame is great, and while my bike does weigh in at ~11.5kg, in the grand scheme of things it's going to be your training that makes you faster and not an expensive groupset or wheelset.

IMO proper maintenance is key to getting decent performance out of the 2300 components. It's never going to feel as refined as the better groupsets, but when tuned just right there's not a thing wrong with it.

To summarise: Ride the hell out of this bike for a while, wait to see where your training takes you before buying a new bike. Maybe go clipless if you haven't already.

07Lapierre

RoboRat wrote: »

I have tried but its not really possible as I cant really go out on schedules due to work/family - I can only go when I get a chance.

I am thinking to perhaps invest in a good groupset as I there are many times where I wanted an in-between gear as the gear was either too light or the next was a bit too heavy. Looking at a Shimano 105 groupset, anybody have any suggestions?

IMO new wheels will make the biggest improvement. I've no experience of the Eastons, but since you've tried a bike that had them, and you like them, go for it!

ford2600

You can probably safely shed 2-3 stone in weight. Ride your bike more. Forget about fancy groupsets/frames etc.
Put GP4000's on as an upgrade.
Losing weight will make a huge difference to how you climb, a new groupset will make next to none.
Don't mean to sound harsh, just giving honest answer

Lumen

I would stick with what you have until you can afford/justify spending in the region of €1500 on a new bike.

And eat less.

cdaly_

RoboRat wrote: »

I have tried but its not really possible as I cant really go out on schedules due to work/family - I can only go when I get a chance.

I am thinking to perhaps invest in a good groupset as I there are many times where I wanted an in-between gear as the gear was either too light or the next was a bit too heavy. Looking at a Shimano 105 groupset, anybody have any suggestions?

I don't get evening / weekend time on the bike either. I use it for commuting so I get a guaranteed minimum of 140km per week. Then I'll also take a long way in to work some mornings to extend the distance.

A better groupset is not going to get you that 'in-between' gear. You'll need to change your (fairly gappy) 11-28t cassette for something with closer ratios. For example, this cassette comes in 13-26t which is a slightly higher lowest gear than your 28t but has much closer ratios (and a lower top gear) so you'll find that 'sweet spot' more easily.

The other thing to do is to start working on upping your pedalling cadence. You should be aiming to be comfortable pedalling at around 80-90 rpm in normal cycling and pushing out to 100-110 rpm when sprinting (you know, for those traffic lights or commuter races). That'll improve your tolerance of bigger gear gaps.

petethedrummer

johnk123 wrote: »

The difference between 2300 and 105 (Or anything!!!) is huge! I still have 2300 on my Defy, and going back to it, it like a step into a different world!

That's not entirely correct. I know down as far as Sora you can make it shift very very well. I have Tiagra and Ultegra and can get the Tiagra shift perfectly. I race on it. My housemate has Sora and has no issues with it whatsoever. So I can't imagine 2300 is that much worse, but maybe it is.

Switching from a badly maintained cheap groupset to a well maintained expensive one is always gonna feel like you are entering a new realm of gear changing but so would taking your bike for a service.

Pretty much what Butterworth just said.:pac:

RoboRat

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go at all, but speaking from experience, I was 15st 4lb last September and hills were a b1tch !! I'm now 13st 7lb and the hills are a whole lot easier........I didn't change groupset.
No doubt 105 will feel a bit nicer and having more gears may help, but it likely won't help you up the hills any quicker, whats the max weight saving between one gruppo and another ?

Losing weight will make a huge difference to how you climb, a new groupset will make next to none.

And eat less.

I guess I should clarify; cycling is one hobby, MMA and Jiu Jitsu is the other so I need to have upper body strength. Although I am just under 16 stone, I am quite lean as I train a lot and eat very well - I am trying to drop to 15 stone by losing some upper body muscle but after that, there isn't much else I can do. I am just an exceptionally big built bloke - I have a 46" chest!

I guess that a 105 might be a bit of a big step and probably a Tiagra would be a better option and I might look at just changing some components.

In my opinion the pedals, and possibly the tires, are the only items that have made a difference to my performance

I got Gatorskins when I bought the bike.

joxerjohn

You've been getting a fair bit of stick on the weight front, but it is definately the case that this is where the problem lies in relation to your performance on the hills, going up them that is. I bet you like coming down them and effortlesly whizzing past all the skinny guys.

In terms of BMI (Body Mass Index) the normal weight range for a score of between 18.5 - 25

For a 6 ft person a BMI score of 25 would equate to a body weight 13st 2lbs. So that could be your ultimate target.

Currently at 16st your BMI score is 30.4 or expressed as an index this = (30.4/25) = 122 or 22% over the normal weight and classed as obese (sorry) !

What I would suggest is get the weight down first and as a reward then upgrade the bike.

Maybe a BMI Index of 110 could be the goal for you to reach, that would equal 14St 6lbs. That is do able and if you get there you'll deserve a good upgrade as a reward for your efforts.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Lumen

RoboRat wrote: »

I guess I should clarify; cycling is one hobby, MMA and Jiu Jitsu is the other so I need to have upper body strength. Although I am just under 16 stone, I am quite lean as I train a lot and eat very well - I am trying to drop to 15 stone by losing some upper body muscle but after that, there isn't much else I can do. I am just an exceptionally big built bloke - I have a 46" chest!

Fair enough. There are a lot of fat cyclists around, so it was an easy (but false) assumption that you were a tub of lard.

<backs away slowly from MMA bloke>

FWIW it is possible to be bike race competitively in Ireland at 15st, at least at the lower levels.

ford2600

BMI index takes no account of bodyshape, it's not relevant to OP given his last post, i.e. athletic build and a lot of muscle.
BMI was originally concieved by a statistician to the best of my knowledge and is largely irrevelant to sports people.
I'd be surprised if many current international rugby player have BMI's under 25.

RoboRat

BMI is useless and completely inaccurate when it comes to muscle mass. It calculates average weight to height which suits the 'average' person, it doesn't take into account body type, bone density or muscle mass. My body fat levels are quite low so barring cutting off and arm or a leg, I cant do a whole lot about the weight. An example of my daily diet would be:
porridge & blueberries for breakfast,
apple at 11am,
brown rice/ brocolli/ grilled chicken for lunch
dinner - lots of veg, lean meats and generally rice (sometimes pasta/potatoes)
Protein after training

I rarely drink and I don't have a sweet tooth, might have a bag of crisps on a saturday night and a take away once a month.

So, can we please drop the weight thing, its not the issue. I was just looking for advice on upgrading my bike.

RoboRat

I'd be surprised if many current international rugby player have BMI's under 25.

Praise the lord.... Tommy Bowe has a BMI of 28, the big tub of lard!

Russman

RoboRat wrote: »

I guess I should clarify; cycling is one hobby, MMA and Jiu Jitsu is the other so I need to have upper body strength. Although I am just under 16 stone, I am quite lean as I train a lot and eat very well - I am trying to drop to 15 stone by losing some upper body muscle but after that, there isn't much else I can do. I am just an exceptionally big built bloke - I have a 46" chest!

Fair enough, mea culpa.

<....ducks behind Lumen>

Russman

Maybe the new wheels & tyres as opposed to a new groupset, easily transferrable to a new bike down the line. Stick the old ones back on the old bike when selling it....?

RoboRat

Maybe the new wheels & tyres as opposed to a new groupset, easily transferrable to a new bike down the line. Stick the old ones back on the old bike when selling it....?

Any suggestions? I have the standard S-R2 with Gatorskins on it at present.

ford2600

I'd keep current bike tbh. Cycle more, train a little smarter.
When you wear out drive train on current bike change cassette/gearing then or change bike to something nicer.
You'll know a bit more about bikes then and could pick up something lovely second hand or new.

BMI is like a red rag to a bull to me!

Russman

RoboRat wrote: »

Any suggestions? I have the standard S-R2 with Gatorskins on it at present.

I'm no expert, I just have the stock wheels that came with my bike, but if I remember correctly, these got some good reviews on here last year....

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=29086

Dozens to choose from though.

petethedrummer

RoboRat wrote: »

Praise the lord.... Tommy Bowe has a BMI of 28, the big tub of lard!

He probably has a very low body fat count. Most people with a 28 BMI wouldn't.

07Lapierre

RoboRat wrote: »

Any suggestions? I have the standard S-R2 with Gatorskins on it at present.

These with Conti GP4000s Tyres

Ooops there discontinued!

ford2600

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056913587

Without tires or cassette you should get good price on these. Don't know seller.
Bike 24 normally have good price on gp4000's

Colonialboy

I dont think its worth your while to upgrade the groupset.
If the moneys burning a hole in your pocket and you really want to spend it, Id buy a new set of wheels, at least then if you upgrade your bike in a couple of years you can use them. There were some 2011 Kysiriums up online a few weeks back at a great price, I dont have the link.
You should see improvment on the hills with new wheels, and they are an investment you can carry forward.

Or else hang tough for another year, ride your current bike into the ground thru another winter, save a bit more and get a brand new bike with 105 this time next year.

petethedrummer

RoboRat wrote: »

Any suggestions? I have the standard S-R2 with Gatorskins on it at present.

Stock wheels can be awful. had some stock wheels on my Giant that freewheeled very poorly and continually broke spokes. Any of the entry level stuff from Mavic, Fulcrum, Campag, Shimano etc.. should be fine.

I like Shimano wheels as they don't tick. I hate noisy wheels.

Dotsie~tmp

Theres a reason you dont see 6ft 16stone 46 inch chest jockeys or 10km runners. You may just not have the body shape to race. Doesnt mean you cant still enjoy it. If u are lean trying to drop muscle mass from above sounds unwise to me.

joxerjohn

Ok somewhere between a tub of lard and a lean mean fighting machine !

Clearly % body fat is also relevant for sports people and the BMI averages do need to be put in context.

Enough said.

I would add that wheels might be a very good investment as an upgrade for you as you can always take these with you so to speak if you were to upgrade the rest of the bike.

Icyseanfitz

a shiny new bike is the way to go

happytramp

ford2600 wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056913587

Without tires or cassette you should get good price on these. Don't know seller.
Bike 24 normally have good price on gp4000's

These seem too good an offer to pass up i'd say.

cassette50

I put these onto my SR2's - http://http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k373/a12488/grand-prix-24-622-mm-black.html - a great budget tyre and I did not pick up any punctures with them over the winter.

The SR2's are kind of heavy but I always found them bulletproof. Indeed I went into a car at speed and the wheel remained true ...shame the same could not be said for my Defy frame.

macnab

I bough a Carrera TDF 2nd hand last week and decided to fit the wheels from my good bike onto it as an experiment.
I cycled my usual 36.6km route, 2 days apart, same weather conditions, same wind speed and direction, same clothing etc.

With stock wheels: 1hr 30mins 22secs
With Shimano RS80: 1hr 23mins 58secs.

My average heart rate and my max heart rate were lower for the faster ride.
The bike weighs 11.3kg stock, 3.9kg of which is wheels, tyres, tubes and cassette.
The RS80's weigh about 2.5kg with tyres, tubes and casssette.
So that makes the bike about 9.9kg with the lighter wheels.

I would normally do this 36.6km circuit in about 1hr 18mins on my 7.9kg Boardman team carbon, my fastest time is 1hr 10mins.

Oh and just to join in on the weight debate, I am 5'5" and weigh about 10 stone, I scored a BMI of 25 on my last checkup. Most of my friends would describe me as skinny, in my opinion BMI can not be applied to athletic body types.

Roger Hassenforder

As a big enough unit too (+100kg), the biggest difference to me was going from an 11-25 to an 11-28 cassette; could spin on hills easier. a few g shaved here and there pgrading groupset wont make much of a difference.
(Must look into changing wheels soon though)

Big blokes arent made to go up hills fast, but by jebus do we come down fast.
So get a new bike if you have the cash.

RoboRat

Theres a reason you dont see 6ft 16stone 46 inch chest jockeys or 10km runners. You may just not have the body shape to race. Doesnt mean you cant still enjoy it. If u are lean trying to drop muscle mass from above sounds unwise to me.

And if you read my original post, I don't want to race, just go faster and further. I basically want to improve and not stagnate in my training. I like to set goals, beat them, then try harder...

Clearly % body fat is also relevant for sports people and the BMI averages do need to be put in context.

Generally between 9% and 12% - I like to think nearer the 9% but realistically probably nearer to 12% (and probably a bit more now as I have an injury and haven't been able to train for the last 3 weeks).

Big blokes arent made to go up hills fast, but by jebus do we come down fast.

Re-entering the stratosphere would be a suitable comparison, especially when I get down low and tuck my windbreakers in (shoulders)

I think getting a 11-28 cassette and possibly a new set of wheels might be a good investment. I have good set of Gatorskin tyres so I can transfer them over. I can see how that fares then look at whether its worth maybe tinkering about a bit more or just getting a carbon bike.

Thanks for the replies, I personally don't mind the assumptions but to be honest, when I see an overweight lad on a bike I think fair play, at least he is off the couch and doing something rather than sitting there wallowing in self pity whilst stuffing his gob with another take away.

RoboRat

Ok one last question, seem to have found a lovely set if Campagnolo wheels that seem to be well priced link

Can I use the SRAM PG-830 11x28 cassette on a Campagnolo wheel? And more importantly, if I was to upgrade the cassette to a shimano 11-28 cassette, would they both be compatible?

Actually, they come with either a campagnolo freehub or a shimano freehub so I think that answers my question - unless I am wrong about that?

ford2600

Spend €4 extra and get the option with Shimano freehub, your new casssette should be ok, not sure an 8 speed sram will fit, maybe spacers needed

joxerjohn

Even with 11-28 10 speed cassette the gaps can be pretty big.

You probably wouldn't really need the 11 so I would start with 12 or 13 on the low end. Also you need to ensure that your rear deraileur can acually accommodate the big 28 cog. This can sometimes be a problem on short cage RD's. You often find that you are limiited to 26 or 27 as a max on these deraileurs

You should check the spec for your RD on the Shimano website before getting the cassette.

joxerjohn

I checked it for you (to make up for the BMI upset caused !) and you will the max sproket for the RD 2300 is stated as 26T. I think you would probably get away with 27 but maybe some on here could confirm this for you

Model Number RD-2300
Series 2300
Cassette Compatibility 8-speed
Maximum Sprocket 26T
Minimum Sprocket 12T
Maximum Front Difference 22T
Total Capacity 35T

Here's the link

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/nl/index/components/road/2300/product.-code-RD-2300.-type-..html

RoboRat

Cheers John, I am looking at a Tiagra groupset which has a 12-23 cassette so that should accommodate the wheels. I have put an offer on it so I will see what transpires... if I don't get it, can I just change the cassette to something that suits or will I need to change the back derailleur and any other components such as the crankset, front derailleur etc? This is all new to me...

BTW:

(to make up for the BMI upset caused !)

None caused, most people would assume that 16 stone is overweight but if you are into weightlifting and upper body strength, then you know that its quite common for well built blokes to be consider 'obese' when it comes to BMI.

JMcL

RoboRat wrote: »

Cheers John, I am looking at a Tiagra groupset which has a 12-23 cassette so that should accommodate the wheels.

The 23 will be murder if you've got any hills at all. Seriously, if you are looking at a new groupset, if it's a 10 speed, aim for 11-27 or 11-28 on the cassette, for 9sp maybe 12-27 or 12-28. I changed from a 12-25 to 12-27 recently, and those extra 2 teeth make a huge difference. You might never need them, but when you do, you're glad :-)

joxerjohn

Tiagra RD's have a bigger range, particularly the latest model 4700 series ones, and should accomodate the 28, again you can check on the shimano site. In an adverts ad there was a guy selling a new Tiagra 12-30 cassette, he didn't like it as he was used on a max of 27 he said.

You sometimes see the 30 on mountain bikes but not common on road bikes. if you think of the ratio between the small 34t chainring and a 30t cog that is almost 1 : 1. you should be able to go almost vertically with that type of gearing.

I would say that 12-27 would be an ideal compromise for you by taking out the 11 and 28 this gives you better gear selection in the middle of the block which is really where you should have the chain most of the time.

Also remember that there's no hill that steep that you can't get off and walk up if you have to and what with the upper body strength putting the bike on your shoulder and jogging up would probably be quicker that gringing away on a 28 or 30t cog !

RoboRat

Thanks for that, I came across this and bid on it, not spending a lot so if I get it at the price I am paying, I think its great value. Its a brand new custom groupset:

• Shimano Tiagra 9x2 speed STI levers
• Shimano Tiagra Compact chainset 175mm cranks 50/34 + Bottom Bracket
• Shimano 105 dual caliper brakes
• Shimano 105 Rear Mech
• FSA Braze on front mech
• Shimano HG 70 9 speed cassette 12-23
• Sram PC971 9 speed chain
• Cables inner/outer Ultegra Grey

Obviously I will need to change the cassette to a 12-27 as stated before the 12-23 will be murder on a hill. I assume that I could just get a different cassette, I was thinking of either of the following:

Shimano Tiagra 4600 10 Speed Cassette (12-28)
Shimano 105 5700 10 Speed Cassette (11-28)

If I switched out that cassette would that be a better groupset? If so, Tiagra or 105? Is there much of a difference?

I can then look at new wheels like the Campagnolo ones and they should be suitable now?

Apologies for the questions but this is all new to me so need the advice!

Icyseanfitz

id actually go with a sram cassette over shimano, better cassettes and chains imo, and they do work with shimano groupsets

this would do, 11-28 will be a bit of a stretch on a 105 rd (what year and model is it?) but with a bit of tinkering you should get it running fine

joxerjohn

You seem to have bid on a 9 speed tiagra group set. Therefore you will need a 9 speed cassette. The 9 speed shifters won't work with 10 speed cassette. So do not buy a 10 speed cassette.

Going for SRAM or Shimano cassette will make no noticable difference. As everything else all Shimano I would be inclined to stick with Shimano. You don't need to spend too much on a 9 speed cassette and you should be able to get either a Tiagra one or a HG50 model for about €25 or less online at CRC. As you are changing the cassette you should also change to chain and maybe the cables as well and you are all set for the season.

You will also probably be able to sell the 2300 groupo that you take off the bike so that will help with reducing the cost of the upgrade.

Nine speed groupsets are perfectly fine so it looks like a decent upgrade once it has been well looked after.

Icyseanfitz

sorry my bad, thought it was 10 speed

RoboRat

OK, so I am thinking of going with the following:

• Shimano Ultegra STi Triple 10 Speed 6603
• Shimano Ultegra 6603 Triple 10sp Chainset
• Shimano 105 5700 10 Speed Road Cassette not sure whether to go 12-27 or 11-28?
• Shimano Ultegra Triple Front Mech 10sp 6603
• Shimano 105 5701 10 Speed Rear Mech
• Shimano 105 5600 10 Speed Chain

What do you think of that upgrade? Going to come in about €280. Do you have any better alternatives for any of the components as I was trying to stick to Shimano as I am not sure of the compatibility with others?

Russman

If you can get all that for only €280 then its a steal IMO !

Roger Hassenforder

Id go for the 11-28, you'll spin out quickly downhill with the 12, plus you'd be glad of the 28 going up.

smacl

RoboRat wrote: »

OK, so I am thinking of going with the following:

• Shimano Ultegra STi Triple 10 Speed 6603
• Shimano Ultegra 6603 Triple 10sp Chainset
• Shimano 105 5700 10 Speed Road Cassette not sure whether to go 12-27 or 11-28?
• Shimano Ultegra Triple Front Mech 10sp 6603
• Shimano 105 5701 10 Speed Rear Mech
• Shimano 105 5600 10 Speed Chain

What do you think of that upgrade? Going to come in about €280. Do you have any better alternatives for any of the components as I was trying to stick to Shimano as I am not sure of the compatibility with others?

Looks like a great buy for the money, and a similar type of gearing to what I'm running myself. Main thing to watch for on a triple with a big cassette is that the rear deraileur can accommodate the combinations you're after. 11-28 on a triple is likely to require a medium or long cage rear deraileur.

+1 also on what _cdaly said about increasing cadence, lower gears pedalling faster. Worth getting a computer with cadence meter if you don't already have one.

RoboRat

thanks a mill for all the replies, think I am going to go with that setup but with an SGS rear deraileur.

I will let you know how she fares when I get it set up :-)